Reply With QuoteEntire projects, on the other hand, aren't as easily ported when built in C, C++ and Objective-C environments than when built with something like Flash or Unity3D.Originally Posted by Bad Sector
Eh.
C, Objective-C and C++ are languages which are used to write portable code (yes, Objective-C too).
Entire projects, on the other hand, aren't as easily ported when built in C, C++ and Objective-C environments than when built with something like Flash or Unity3D.
Last edited by Adrian Lopez; 04-10-2010 at 02:09 PM.
No, but they're safe bets, you know they will exist in the long term (maybe another mobile device), if used correctly they can take proper advantage of each target platform (i'm sure one of the reasons Apple doesn't want Flash or similar "crossplatform" technologies is that people are going to use only what is available in all platforms instead of taking advantage of what iPhone offers, thus making it just another device) and really, they're just the proper way to make software for iPhone.
By 'porting' you surely mean flipping a switch in the export dialog of Flash or Unity? When using Flash or other authoring tools, if the target platform is not supported by said platform, most of the time you just cannot 'port' your game unless you write it from scratch in another language (e.g. C/C++).
Anyway, IMHO purchasing decissions over middleware or authoring tools should always be based on what the tools can do do *right now*. Buying into something for the promise of future features or supported platforms is never a good idea. Anybody relying on CS5 for quick iPhone ports of their app Flash (or worse, already developing iPhone specific Flash contents for iPhone) before it was released and tested in the real world was basically gambling.
Right. Getting a particular Flash CS5 or Unity game to run under the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad is potentially as simple as setting the desired target. The only thing standing in the way is Apple.
We're not talking about other target platforms, but about Apple's iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad.When using Flash or other authoring tools, if the target platform is not supported by said platform, most of the time you just cannot 'port' your game unless you write it from scratch in another language (e.g. C/C++).
"Getting a particular Flash CS5 or Unity game to run under the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad is potentially as simple as setting the desired target."
Typical flash games run at 640x480 or higher resolution now days. The iphone is 480x320. It wouldn't be as easy as flipping a switch unless you coded both at 480x320 to begin with.
But seriously...has anyone here played with the cs5 beta? Performace on the iphone was horrid. Even on the newer units you were lucky to get 20+fps with only a few objects on screen. Forget shooters, etc. You might be able to do a limited point and click puzzle game. The tech was interesting, but clearly they have/had alot to do in regards to performance optimization.
As a developer you should always be wary of Apple. Hyping crap up and making it look like a god send while simultaneously gutting its features out may work on a consumer level where the people buying have no idea one way or another but it has very real and grave consequences for programmers.Still, it doesn't help build my confidence in Apple platforms.
Apple is applying its marketing and product design to developers with this shit, you can't do a whole lot, you're not allowed to do this or that, but in the end the product is more stable because of it. This is true for the consumer side of things, not so sure for developers though.
How so? Does the device realize you're a developer and becomes unstable and malfunctioning? :-)
A couple more links for the curious...
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...or-android.ars
http://www.taoeffect.com/blog/2010/0...section-3-3-1/
Flash games are usually resolution independent due to the use of vector graphics. The aspect ratio can potentially affect gameplay and bitmaps aren't so pretty when scaled, but these problems are not unique to Flash. The fact is, it is a heck of a lot easier to get Flash games running on supported platforms than to get your C/C++/Objective-C game running on platforms that support these languages.
What about Unity? So far it would appear that its use is forbidden by Apple's new terms, but I've heard not a peep about poor performance.But seriously...has anyone here played with the cs5 beta? Performace on the iphone was horrid. Even on the newer units you were lucky to get 20+fps with only a few objects on screen. Forget shooters, etc. You might be able to do a limited point and click puzzle game. The tech was interesting, but clearly they have/had alot to do in regards to performance optimization.
Unity's apps were slow loading, but that's about it. Shiva apps also ran well.What about Unity? So far it would appear that its use is forbidden by Apple's new terms, but I've heard not a peep about poor performance.
It's more that restricting a developers arsenal of APIs, SDKs and languages seldom helps in his ability to create better software.
The illusion of stability Apple creates may work well for consumers but for programmers the frustration will be exponentially higher.
I really love this move by Apple.
I want the barrier to entry to be higher, not lower. If its too low you might as well let any moron with game maker X deploy to 100 different platforms and saturate the market overnight.
Right now its a bit too low, judging by the dirge already on appstore. With this move, we will at least see some higher quality apps being submitted.
Haven't you ever wanted to compete on appstore based on the quality of your app? maybe now you can.
If you were the sort who wanted to flood the appstore with garbage that took you a day to complete then good riddance to you.
Also if Apple allowed Adobe this move, they would eventually have been at the mercy of how good Adobe's exporter was. What if Mobile Phone X running windows comes out and is weaker hardware than the iphone but flash exported apps ran better on it? Seeing the same app running faster on the cheaper mobile would directly harm iPhone sales, harm the future business of developers using Appstore and god knows what else.
This is clearly a great move for developers only some people are currently too short sighted to see it or lack the spine to actually work very hard.
Last edited by hippocoder; 04-11-2010 at 10:17 AM.
Hmmm... I'm not so sure about that Hippo. It's raising the barrier to entry for programming, but just because someone can code doesn't mean they can make good games. There are times that the artists and game designers do a better job when not having to worry about the underlying code.
Actually, most great games are made by game designer and artists indeed, not coders
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The idea that a person can make a great game but can't code is still allowed.
You can still make your games in CS5- just don't expect to make a living from it selling 15 fps substandard experiences on appstore when it could run at 60fps.
I'm sure the Jailbreak scene will be flooded with kongregate apps soon enough.
Because the apps currently being submitted are mostly being developed with the yet unreleased Flash CS5? No? You mean they're actually being written specifically for Apple's platforms using Apple's own tools? Yeah. That's what I thought.
Don't you think it's you who is short sighted ?
Barrier to entry is not depend on the tool you're using but on the quality of the game itself.
If they want to raise the barrier to entry, the right way to do it is to raise the bar on the quality of the the game itself, the end product.
The way you word it above, is almost similar to say, from now on everyone is not allowed to paint concept art using Photoshop, everyone have to use Windows Paint. Why ? Because with photoshop everyone can do a concept art quicker, those more chance to produce so many bad concept art, by limiting everyone to use Windows Paint the barrier to entry will be higher.
Also i don't think it's necessary to call someone who use game maker a "moron" ? Why so angry with the tools
Exactly. You should be able to make your game just fine in C++ using xcode. Is there a reason you're not able to?Barrier to entry is not depend on the tool you're using but on the quality of the game itself.
If they want to raise the barrier to entry, the right way to do it is to raise the bar on the quality of the the game itself, the end product.
I'm an artist and I pulled the finger out, learned objective c and c++ and here I am. Whats your excuse?
Yeah, this makes no sense really. The market is already saturated with crap and that's got nothing to do with Flash. I don't know why you think the quality will go up - it's already at rock bottom. Unless you think fart apps are great.
Good for you, not great for everyone. Some people would like to leverage their existing knowledge of tools - and the only reason they can't is because Apple have said so and with no good reason.
This is no barrier to entry for anyone determined to make it at all. C++ isn't a big bad enemy. Nothing in the apple SDK/Frameworks is any harder to use than basic.
The problem is simple: not the language of flash, but the one-click deployment available from flash placing app creation within reach of literally millions more people who will simply flood Apple's approval department with garbage.
At least the barrier of entry is a realistic first line of defense.
Flash is just the tip of the iceberg, many game-creation systems already are being made, or are available.
So would I but instead of moaning about it, I just knuckled down and got on with it. Apple has always been like this, it is nothing new. They aren't preventing your freedom, you can still write apps in mono or lua or CS5. They are saying "don't expect us to accept apps made with those".
I accept they've gone too far with mono though, and I'm hoping there will be a concession allowing people to use it - especially as Unity is an asset to Apple.
If Apple chose to make Objective C mandatory then I'd probably join the party and stop developing for Apple, as thats one bridge too far for me
So what you're saying is this barrier to entry is actually no barrier to entry? And yet it will somehow increase the quality of products on the App Store?
So, what you're saying is: "real programmers use C++"?
By what strange magic are you able to deploy applications without first having developed them?The problem is simple: not the language of flash, but the one-click deployment available from flash placing app creation within reach of literally millions more people who will simply flood Apple's approval department with garbage.
I can see you're a bit annoyed at my comments and I apologise, I'm not trying to annoy you but I'm pretty convinced its a good move for quality in the long run, please let me clarify my reasoning to you a little more before I bore you
1. My assumption is based on the fact that this isn't just a new clause for apps to be accepted in the appstore, but also they'll be tightening quality control.
2. This to my mind is a first step or first line of defense in what they're doing. So far its been okay to develop 1,000 fart apps. However now the Appstore is established and the iPhone is beginning to receive serious competition from other mobiles, it makes perfect sense for Apple to go on a quality over quantity drive.
We can't look at past behaviour, only on what will happen next, and that is why the barrier to entry is (still) going up. It will take time but pay off in the long run - both for Apple and for us developers.
It would help if you had any evidence to back up the claim that Apple wants to raise its current standards rather than just keep out those technologies that facilitate cross-platform development.
I think its more like "iPhone programmers use C++" (or C or Objective-C -- i dislike C++ :-P).
As for artist making better games than programmers, well that's easy to solve: find a pro... no, PAY a programmer* to write the code for you and you'll be fine :-).
(*=welcome to our world, feel how it is for us to hunt artists down for our games, heh heh heh)
I'm not annoyed. I just get a bit disturbed with this "it's ok for them to narrow the market just so long as I'm on the right side of it" view of things. It's only good for "us" developers for a given value of "us". If you're an extremely talented Flash developer that makes high quality games then this move isn't good for them and they're just as an important developer as you or I.
If Apple turned around tomorrow and said "sorry, but we're only allowing devs who are based in the USA, have more than 200 employees, and pay a $50,000 license fee per game", would you just say "well, they're just increasing the barrier to entry, shame I'm not included".
If Apple wanted to up the quality then they can do that as part of the approval process. It doesn't matter what the game\app was made in. Just because something is done in Flash doesn't make it bad.
It does make it bad. Flash apps are on appstore right now created with CS5 beta, and they run like utter dogs with nowhere near the framerate they should be for the work they're doing...
The problem is you cannot separate those two things, they are part of the same beast....back up the claim that Apple wants to raise its current standards rather than just keep out those technologies that facilitate cross-platform development.
There is no way you even really slow down the porting process by changing languages these days. C++ is incredibly portable, it will work anywhere. In fact your iPhone game can pretty much be dropped into a Google android project with a few different calls.
However the fact you HAVE to port it manually will raise the quality of the product. You have the control, and have to make choices. I'll believe that Apple want to prevent all forms of cross-platform development when they prevent C++ and C from being acceptable.
I really do think this is a is an early quality control measure, and this is my own opinion. If I am wrong, and they suddenly turn around and make it impossible for me to develop, then I port my game in a day to another mobile...
Edit: here is a link to a cs5 exported app and the user comments: http://itunes.apple.com/app/fickleblox/id330996323?mt=8
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