I detect a shit/fan interface...[Apple requires apps be written in C ]

[princec]

http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/ip...flash_compiler

if that's true then...

Cas

[Adrian Lopez]

I wonder what that means for Unity iPhone considering Unity games aren't written in "C, C++ or objective C", and its JavaScript is compiled rather than "executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine".

What a bang-up job Apple is doing of getting me to dislike them as a company.

Edit: Spoke too soon. TFA says "I originally thought this would ban games written using Unity3D, but perhaps not — Unity3D produces a complete Xcode project and Objective-C source files, so it’s more like a pre-processor than a cross-compiler. Hard to tell."

Still, it doesn't help build my confidence in Apple platforms.

[PoV]

I'm a jerk, so I said "thank you". I want the Unity stuff to slip by though, since middleware is good.

[Adrian Lopez]

BTW - Unity users are discussing the implications of the change here. At this point, I still don't know what to make of it. If Unity iPhone needs Mono to operate then it means it is running JIT code and therefore may indeed be against the terms of the new iPhone Developer Program License Agreement.

[barrygamer]

Hmm, knew this would happen (see old post somewhere)….
There was no way apple were going to let people run flash apps this way.

CS5 is out in a week or so -- oh dear, all that work by adobe for nothing. We'll see how this one develops, we'll hear much more I'm sure.

Unity has been going for a while on iphone, surely they cant cut them off now? For a 3d game it looks a v nice option.

On a lighter note, my x months spent learning obj-c arent wasted

[edit - the news is starting to hit all the usual sites. Its gonna be sh*t/fan for sure].

[Bad Sector]

Unity uses a static compiler for mono (mono supports both dynamic/jit and static compilation), so it doesn't need a VM. On the other hand, this "static compilation" probably is outside the C/ObjC/JS group.

Also i wonder if this affects haXe's iPhone support. Maybe not since haXe converts to C++ and doesn't compile directly to iPhone.

[barrygamer]

The phrase "Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++" kind of kills any workaround Adobe (or others) could use, assuming one can detect 'converted/exported' code.

[Maupin]

Wow, Apple just lost a lot of respect in my book. What a pissant move directed at Adobe (and Flash developers).

[Reactor]

Wow, Apple just lost a lot of respect in my book.

Apple had your respect? Apple are the douches of the computer world. I mean, I love my iPhone and the look of this new update (aside from the ads- that could be trouble) but I've never expected Apple to do anything right.

On a side note, (for those who use it) it sounds as though Shiva apps will be unaffected.

[Escapee]

Giving me another reason why I will not own anything from Apple anytime soon ..

SE Xperia X2 (Open Platform) is not that bad , I wonder why the lack of popularity ?

[Julio Gorge]

Don't bring out the pitchforks yet, I think we should wait and see if / how Apple enforces this.

Anyway this shouldn't surprise anyone, it's Apple we're talking about. Their true motto never was "Think Different", but rather "My way or the highway" .

@Escapee: Windows Mobile 6.5... nobody wants to invest on a smartphone running an OS that is on its way out.

[Escapee]

@Julio Gorge, IC IC ...

http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/10/...t-still-sucks/

[Reactor]

@Escapee: Windows Mobile 6.5... nobody wants to invest on a smartphone running an OS that is on its way out.

Or one that completely and utterly sucks. Sorry, I had to saw that. Windows Mobile is terrible. Perhaps the new one will be a large improvement but... compared to the iPhone OS, the current versions are a disaster.

EDIT: Hehe, Escapee... that's the article I was thinking of

[Jack Norton]

They only wanted to prevent a flood of crappy games to appear on iPhone!
Oh wait. It's too late already

[Bad Sector]

They only wanted to prevent a flood of crappy games to appear on iPhone!
Oh wait. It's too late already

Maybe, but you can still find good games in there without much effort (my latest awesome find is The Quest). Can you find one in any of those "Free Flash Games"?

I don't like the way they worded it because it has a lot of side effects (although i think i read somewhere that the terms are temporary and they'll be changed), but i agree with Apple's decision to keep Flash away from the iPhone, both as a developer and a user.

@Escapee:
Users decide which platforms to support, not developers. And really all what Apple does is awesome from a user perspective.

[princec]

As I see it Apple are heading head on into antitrust territory, if not in the US, then probably Europe. Adobe appear to have a very strong case and as far as I can tell, a lot of precedent in various other industries.

Cas

[wazoo]

@Escapee:
Users decide which platforms to support, not developers. And really all what Apple does is awesome from a user perspective.

I would argue more that you need the full triangle for awesomeness - vendor, developer AND consumer.

If you shit on any one of those 3, the other two get the fallout.

Update: Here's a good "roundup" of things affected by these TOS

http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/wh...ed_section_331

Update 2: If you're using the new SDL 1.3 for the iPhone, then you *should* be "safe". I posted that article to the SDL newsgroup and Sam stated:

From: Sam Lantinga <slouken <at> libsdl.org>
Subject: Re: SDL 1.3 now banned from the iPhone?
Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lib.sdl
Date: 2010-04-09 07:11:18 GMT (2 hours and 16 minutes ago)
This doesn't affect SDL applications. SDL is a mix of C and Objective
C and uses public documented API calls.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 2:53 PM, erik <erikyuzwa <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/ip...flash_compiler
>
> New terms and conditions have come down the pipe...a lot of non-objectivec
> toolkits seem to be impacted by this (including Adobe).
>
>

[JGOware]

"but i agree with Apple's decision to keep Flash away from the iPhone, both as a developer and a user."

Why? Flash doesn't make bad games, bad devs do. And there's a crap load of crap apps on the iphone already thank you. With that said, you wouldn't be able to do more than basic flash games on the iphone anyway, the performance was/is rediculous.

[Adrian Lopez]

And really all what Apple does is awesome from a user perspective.

Reminds me of a link somebody posted to Raph Koster's website: Stockholm Syndrome.

[Bad Sector]

"but i agree with Apple's decision to keep Flash away from the iPhone, both as a developer and a user."

Why? Flash doesn't make bad games, bad devs do. And there's a crap load of crap apps on the iphone already thank you. With that said, you wouldn't be able to do more than basic flash games on the iphone anyway, the performance was/is rediculous.

As a developer i agree with Apple because there is already too much competition in there with the thousands of developers and as you said there is already a lot of bad apps. I don't want my app to be drowned in a sea of crap. A puddle is ok, you can be spotted in it. A sea... not much :-).

Also 100x more apps means 100x more work for Apple to process the requests and this means much bigger delays and/or less thought for each accepted app, which ends in more crap coming on the App Store.

As a user, well mostly for the same reasons: its already a bit hard to find good stuff in App Store. I'm sure (because thats what already happens on the web) that for each good Flash app that would exist, one thousand of bad ones will make sure that people won't find it.

I'm with Apple on this one: do you want your stuff on the App Store? Play by the(ir) rules.

[luggage]

As a developer i agree with Apple because there is already too much competition in there with the thousands of developers and as you said there is already a lot of bad apps. I don't want my app to be drowned in a sea of crap. A puddle is ok, you can be spotted in it. A sea... not much :-).

Also 100x more apps means 100x more work for Apple to process the requests and this means much bigger delays and/or less thought for each accepted app, which ends in more crap coming on the App Store.

As a user, well mostly for the same reasons: its already a bit hard to find good stuff in App Store. I'm sure (because thats what already happens on the web) that for each good Flash app that would exist, one thousand of bad ones will make sure that people won't find it.

I'm with Apple on this one: do you want your stuff on the App Store? Play by the(ir) rules.

So you want to restrict competition so long as you're on the side "allowed" to compete?

[Bad Sector]

So you want to restrict competition so long as you're on the side "allowed" to compete?

If the alternative is to be lost in the brown sea i mentioned above, yes :-).

Why? Do you want to have to compete against all those who make shameless clones for Flash portals in half an hour (and have dropped licensing prices to nothingness) for Apple's time and/or virtual shelf space in App Store?

Because i don't.

Unless there is a regional lock (like the one in XBLA/XBIG) or an impossible barrier (like the requirements for a console game), i'm not going to be on the "wrong" side because i'm not afraid to leave my comfort zone and learn new environments and tools.

[Jamie W]

So you want to restrict competition so long as you're on the side "allowed" to compete?

I think basically everyone wants an un-even playing field (in their own favour) and those who say they don't, are basically lying.

[barrygamer]

or an impossible barrier (like the requirements for a console game),

I was going to mention console dev -- the restrictions are much higher there (wii/ds). We don't chastise nintendo for the rules on their platform. Is it an unfair comparison?

*Changing* the dev agreement is pretty unfair for those who have already invested time/money in their current tools. They surely didnt predict the current situation.

BTW I am biased. If the CS5 exporter were *really* good, I'd prob use it, since I am still quite new to obj-c etc. But, having learnt more iphone coding I now dont want a flood of quick flash ports (including my own!).

From what I read about the games built using the CS5 beta packager, it wasnt a very efficient result. You can imagine how badly a complex physics-based flash game would run when exported like that.

[luggage]

As a consumer I want as much competition as possible. That's how things get better.

As a developer I'd like it to be restricted to only games that I make money from. I actually realise that's unreasonable though.

Competition is good - if you're afraid of competition then making iPhone games is the wrong business.

[Reactor]

I agree with luggage.

The app store is already at the point where you need to make amazing games to stand out from the crowd. If you're afraid more flash games will make it impossible to be seen, I'd ask how you plan on being seen amongst the 100k+ apps in the store already. Whatever that tactic is, there's a decent chance it'll work well no matter how big the store is. And if it doesn't, it'll need reworking because the store is going to get a heck of a lot larger without Adobe's help.

Apple are simply trying to eliminate development platforms that allow devs to release a single game on both the iPhone and the competition at the same time. I doubt saving the store from too many poor games is that high on Apple's priority list.

You can imagine how badly a complex physics-based flash game would run when exported like that.

There are some seriously sluggish games/apps in the appstore right now. If Apple wanted to keep the quality high, they'd just need to set a few benchmarking rules for apps. If they didn't perform, they'd get culled. Since it costs to sign up with and sell through Apple, developers would soon get the message that quality is important.

[Jamie W]

Competition is good - if you're afraid of competition then making iPhone games is the wrong business.

I don't agree with the general notion that 'competition is good'. Sure, there may be some good in it, in that it forces you to become more efficient, and deliver a better product or service etc.

However, surely (within a limited resources context) the stronger the competition is, the smaller your own "piece of the pie" will be; how is that good?

With regards being afraid of the competition; that would be a complete waste of time; better not to give them the time of day, or at all occupy yourself with any thought of them. Doubtless, they will be doing what they can to tip the playing field to their own advantage; all the while claiming they are doing no such thing, that to do so is bad, and that you certainly shouldn't be trying to do the same..

[Jamie W]

There are some seriously sluggish games/apps in the appstore right now. If Apple wanted to keep the quality high, they'd just need to set a few benchmarking rules for apps. If they didn't perform, they'd get culled. Since it costs to sign up with and sell through Apple, developers would soon get the message that quality is important.

Agreed, I've only been using the AppStore for around a month, and I'm astounded at the number of really poor quailty titles on there.

There needs to be some kind of mechanism in place where the better quality games get more visibilty? Some kind of "sort games by rating" or such-like. So the cream rises to the top etc.

It's clearly not to Apples advantage to impliment such a mechanism (or they would have already).

[Reactor]

Some kind of "sort games by rating" or such-like. So the cream rises to the top etc.

Appshopper is pretty good for that... or at least, as good as it can be with so many apps to list. Toucharcade and good ol' word of mouth seem to fill in the rest of the blanks for me. I'd be interested in what the average Joe does, though. Possibly something similar, with different websites and top 100 lists.

[desmasic]

The Flash Blog

"Go screw yourself Apple."