Pro / cons of the various kind of MMOs ?

[andrew]

Imagine if they had to download a JNLP app, possibly wrestle with having to configure and update Java. Flash, on the other hand, has a huge reach and games only take ~5 seconds to load (with no user interaction).

Java (client-side) seems to be a total clusterfuck. People often post Java projects here and not even half of them run on my various machines, and when they fail it's usually some odd-looking dialog box with some mystifying exception. If they're going to jump through the hoops to get Java to work, then they'll probably be willing to just install your downloadable.

As long as you're not doing hardcore 3D, Flash is a perfectly fine bitmap blitter, and even Flash 10 has a 95% penetration rate in the developed world.

The one thing is that you may have to consider CDN delivery with a Flash client, because if you're delivering a 3-5MB SWF to say 100,000 people, and each player plays say 5-10 times per month... you do the math. Browser cache will help, but every time you update versions they will have to re-download.

- andrew

[Jack Norton]

Of course the most infuriating thing about network coding is you need to be coding the server and client at the same time and testing that new code at the same time. If you have 2 computers to spare it's probably best to use them at the same time, side by side or else you'll go nut's trying to keep things in check.

I'm talking about that. I was using python and php, and was really easy enough to do technical wise. What pissed me was the SLOWNESS at going on even for simple things since I had to think every action/option in game with client / server architecture...

[Nutter2000]

I'm talking about that. I was using python and php, and was really easy enough to do technical wise. What pissed me was the SLOWNESS at going on even for simple things since I had to think every action/option in game with client / server architecture...

Heh yeah you do, it gets easier though.
Plus you also have to consider how to minimise the amount of data your sending with each call (or conversely the amount of calls made) because although it may seem small you have to consider the effect on individual clients and the server as it scales up.
The joys of client/server networking

[tolik]

How about providing MMORPG and Facebook game templates?

[Chris Evans]

-Do not go with subscriptions-only. Some people are willing to spend a ton more than you can imagine, so don't limit it from them with a best-guess subscription price. I have seen much, much better results from virtual goods.

I agree, it's good to provide both options.

Though I still think my advice is relevant for small devs who may not necessarily be doing Facebook MMOs.

[Nutter2000]

I think it depends on the game design really, not every mmo can really use micro-transactions without some horrible kludge as it can cause game balancing issues, while at the same time not every one works well with a subscription system either

[Nutter2000]

There's nothing wrong with 'tire kickers', because even people who play your game for free can become addicted. Addicts become evangelists, and evangelists bring more users.

Sorry, missed this comment earlier.

Yes I agree given an infinite amount of players for your game then, say, 2% of tire kickers may become regular users and 2% of them may become addicts and evangelise your game better than any banner ad or marketing ploy.

However, my point was more that with a genre that's suited to a downloadable client such as java, such as a 3d RPG (for want of a better example) then you're more likely to lose most of the tire kickers along the way due to the increased difficulty in getting to play and so are left with actual paying customers, who are by definition already well on their way to becoming addicts and evangelists.

It was a throwaway comment though, don't read too much into it

[defanual]

Anyone have any comments or experience with http://playerio.com/ which is a flash multi-player API (has MMO capabilities in it's features apparently).

[Nexic]

I wouldn't touch anything where your game is tied to someone else's hosting services. This puts you 100% at their mercy.

[synapse]

Agreed. Write your own Client-Server-DB API. It really doesn't take a long time to learn (especially if you find it fun!) and you need to have control of it.

[zoombapup]

The fun part, is that you literally dont need to host anything:

Use google to launch the game and direct to download (via appengine)
Amazon handles the database and php servers. (via EC2)
Amazon handles the delivering of the flash file (via S3)
You backup to Amazon (via the EBS)

It can scale out about a billionty times better than you can do by hosting your own little app, plus you can develop it on your own wamp setup and then deploy once you have the thing tested a bit.

Of course there's stuff like analytics and billing. Currently looking at billing options (of course facebook is doing a payment system soon, so most of the other ones are likely going to be redundant, but man its going to be good for microtransactions I think).

[defanual]

I agree about having as much control as pos, but couldn't you start with a solution like playerio.com and then work your way up to a custom / self-hosted solution without too much hassle?

[Nexic]

If you do that you'll essentially have to make your game twice (or at least a large chunk of it), why waste your time? Use something like SmartFox or ElectroServer and host it yourself, you'll save money and won't be tied down.

[puggy]

i was playing social city ( http://apps.facebook.com/socialcity/ ) the other day and thinking something like that would be good as a side game for starpeace. Get some attention for the real game and make money from the mini game. So off i went to look at the potential of developing something like that in flash. First i got flashdevelop installed and PBE.

First thing i realised is that i seem to be spoiled by using delphi and dreamweaver 2004. It seems to be all code and no visual developing, especially like delphi with it's forms.

Ok, no worries, just have to do things the hard way and specify locations and stuff, lets get on with some of the tutorials and see what AS3 is like. Now remember why a few years ago when i first looked at flash why i ran miles away. It's a horrible language, not as bad as assembly, but i'm used to the nice flowing pascal of delphi or php.

At this point i was welcomming the pinging of social city every 5 or so minutes to tell me there's something to do but i though the biggest thing will be the iso map, so lets see if there is anything out there to put one in without much hassle which led me to as3isolib which is apparently used by quite a few flash apps. Downloaded and looked at some of the docs, spent ages just looking at it trying to work out how to get the iso map up (thats just looking, not coding) and of course getting distracted every 5 mins.

Which leaves me to today where i have been messing about and looking at the flashdevelop tab on the taskbar every so often and dreading of actually trying to learn to code something in AS3 and wondering if i could just hand off all the assets to starpeace and getting somone else to code it for a percentage.

Do companies like microsoft and adobe intentionally make there coding languages nasty so other companies need more developers and thus buy more copies of there software?

[zoombapup]

I really dont mind as3 to be honest. Its as useful as I need a language to be.

You might want to try the trial version of flex builder (now called flash builder 4). It has all the visual development stuff youre probably more used to. Still have to do some stuff to make it all work of course, but likely a bit nicer than flashdevelop (not sure on that btw, never used flashdevelop).

It certainly makes visual interface development a lot easier. Not brilliant, but certainly nicer. Plus you can build AIR apps with it.

[DevTactics]

You can do AIR apps with FlashDevelop as well. I'd recommend it over Adobe's terrible Flash IDE anyday, and that's without even considering the fact that FD is absolutely free.

On topic: ActionScript for Multiplayer Games and Virtual Worlds is a pretty good book for anyone looking to do this sort of thing in AS3. It includes a section on tile-based isometric views, with source code.

[Nutter2000]

FlashDevelop is fine if you don't want a design tool.

Have to admit I haven't tried FlashBuilder yet although it's on my list of purchases so will have to compare and contrast.

[defanual]

I use FlashDevelop with the Flash IDE (the flash scripting IDE is horrible on anything over medium size projects), only way to go, right?

[puggy]

You might want to try the trial version of flex builder (now called flash builder 4). It has all the visual development stuff youre probably more used to. Still have to do some stuff to make it all work of course, but likely a bit nicer than flashdevelop (not sure on that btw, never used flashdevelop).

Ohh, i'm liking flash builder 4. Not quite as good as using the delphi interface but it's something i could easily see myself using. Only down side i see is that it only came out last month and there's bugger all tutorials. Also i tried getting a basic as3isolib grid up (as i would be wanting to use isometric maps), got it working using the flex tutorial but kill's the whole development screen so hopefully there will be some code up soon about getting it to work in FB4.

Over all i'm liking it, though thats with only a few hours of playing with it. I might even save up and buy a copy after the 60 days are up.

[zoombapup]

You could pretend to be a "unemployed developer" there is a version of flash builder "standard" that is free for unemployed developers, whatever that is.

[defanual]

You could pretend to be a "unemployed developer" there is a version of flash builder "standard" that is free for unemployed developers, whatever that is.

Of course this seems to be the same license as a education one in that you can't 'theoretically' create commercial content with it, of course, if you bought it quick enough with said commercial content...