EDMUND-A game about a Rapist [FREEWARE][NSFW]

[Farmergnome]

Applewood > read the first post very slowly.

Then read the forum tag... announcements.

I released a game, this is a announcement, I want some feedback from developers, that requires some people to actually play it though, with a open mind I should add. I wan't people to stretch themselves a bit, I hope my game makes some emotion come out, its all the fun of being human I hear.

Okay and slowly again, look at the forum thread, what does freeware mean? It means freeeee, as in, not for sale, free, you know.

Does it realy come down to personal insults, tagging my works with quotes, "game", very subtle, Im pretty sure this wouldn't happen if I made the same game without the word rape in it. If you don't want to play it im not forcing you, the rape scenes within the game aren't even forced as oddbob pointed out. If you don't want to play it, then theres no pressure, theres lots of other announcement threads to troll.


Infact look what I found:

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthr...t=zompocalypse

My last game I posted here, featuring baby kicking, tons of voilence and offensive shit, look at that rosey set of reponses, double standard hey?

Look at that zombies head, its practically exploding, but hey thats funny right? right?

[zoombapup]

Its a very difficult thing for people to understand that we NEED to be able to do games with themes such as rape, otherwise we've already given up on having any real depth to the possibility space of games.

I think its premature to start doing the kind of self-censorship of games that has been going on, but I can understand the cultural background that still pervades the media and its anti-game retoric. Frankly games are seen as "for kids" in such a large part of the public at large that it takes games that are really challenging for us to push things forward.

As for what we personally feel about it, that doesnt really matter so much as what the creator intended for it. Art isnt about the product so much as about the intention of the creator. If the creator thinks this game is artful, then it is.

If this is for a competition, I'm interested in seeing the other entrants to see if any alternative views on the subject have come up.

[Junkyard Sam]

I just don't think this game deserves any more outrage than Natural Born Killers, any of the SAW movies, Hostel, etc... Or GTA, etc. Maybe even any of the various Stephen King books with all the gratuitous torture or violence...

I think this thread has turned into each person clamoring louder than the next in a sort of competition to see who can be the most anti-rape.

We're all horrified by rape, and that's what made this game so creepy, bizarre, and disturbing. My wife used to wait at a bus stop once a week, late at night in San Francisco while pregnant with my first...

Heck, if I'd played this game back then it would have done me some good not to allow her out into such risk.

The game was moderately fun, extremely disturbing, really creepy with the sound and atmosphere you created with the film FX and grain --- and an interesting horror story. It was certainly more memorable than the average downloadable PC indie demo.

And with this huge anti-response he's getting - clearly he succeeded very well with what he intended.



EDIT:
Look. I'll be honest. I enjoyed the game. It was the perfect length for a bitesize break during this grueling day. I have downloaded dozens of other PC demos that were nothing but a waste of time and this game wasn't.

In the end... It's just a game. The violence was a bit silly, even, but the atmosphere was effective enough that it really did creep me out and disturb me.

Hey guy-that-made-this-game --- you should make a touching little youthful summer-love type of game, something touching and romantic, next, just to show you can do it. Go the opposite direction with the atmosphere. Make it warm, etc...

OBLIGATORY PS:
Yes I find rape to be horrifying, terrible, and an abomination.

[Junkyard Sam]

IN FACT, I'LL GO OUT ON A LIMB AND SAY THIS...
Where was this level of intense outrage when the United States was killing tens and hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children, needlessly - in Iraq?! (And you UK guys, y'all have blood on your hands too so don't point the finger TOO much.)

Where was this level of outrage when the US made TORTURE a standard methodology in foreign interrogations??? People were actually DYING in those interrogations... Little kids were tortured in front of their parents even. Horrible things were going on, and there is blood on all of our hands for allowing that to happen.


I don't mean to get political here, but I HAVE to in order to make a point -- NO ONE DIED in the making or playing of this game, and yet it's getting a ferocious level of outrage that I didn't see when actual, real violence was being perpetrated in our names...

No yellow ribbon on my car.
sigh.


Hey Farmergnome - THAT's what you SHOULD have done. You should have used this exact same atmosphere to make an Abu Ghraib game where you torture Iraqis. Now THAT would really be interesting... We're ALL opposed to rape, but when it comes to torture you'd find a bunch of Republican types cheering you for your game and thinking you're a "patriot" for making it.

You should make that game, it's not too late... There's plenty of imagery you could source to do it, too, with those crazy pointed witch hats and the waterboarding, and the car batteries hooked to people's genitals.

If Americans are so gung-ho about torture then they should try experiencing it first hand in one of your weirdo games.



Hey, next you could even make a game where you deny people healthcare because they don't have health insurance!

lol


All I'm saying is - I don't see this kind of outrage about things that really matter, with real lives at stake... I guess because as long as Americans don't have to look at it, we're happy with it.

Like meat. I wonder how many people would eat it if they had to kill the animals themselves (particularly in the torturous ways they are killed at meat-making plants...) (Not being preachy here - I ate a meat burrito last night. Just making a point.)

[Oddbob]

Its a very difficult thing for people to understand that we NEED to be able to do games with themes such as rape, otherwise we've already given up on having any real depth to the possibility space of games.

Yup, it's quite the fascinating thing this though because games have to date been allowed to get away with all sorts of reprehensible stuff - but it's alright because there's a bit of a nod and a wink or it's deliberately left ambiguous (I'm not entirely sure how that's necessarily better if it allows any sort of message to be lost to the ether either, but that's another debate entirely).

So we're ok with Porntris (I'm not saying we as in us here, I'm referring to a wider cultural thang), we're okay with Leisure Suit Larry, we're ok with The Path, we're ok with Beat 'Em and Eat 'Em, Sam Fox Strip Poker or tits out for Palace, Barbarian. So, we're ok with titillation, exploitation and all the mix that brings.

They're all, it would seem, socially acceptable places to explore in the gamespace.

Yet, it's morally outrageous to some to dare to confront something head on and say "y'know, this isn't a very nice thing".

I, err, I don't get it. Really.

I think its premature to start doing the kind of self-censorship of games that has been going on, but I can understand the cultural background that still pervades the media and its anti-game retoric.

...and from a media that itself generally relies on body image/exploitation to sell copy, more so than any other industry outside of porn. The irony certainly isn't lost on me with them. At least, I guess, porn is more honest with its intentions and as a rule, a far more enjoyable read!

Frankly games are seen as "for kids" in such a large part of the public at large that it takes games that are really challenging for us to push things forward.

Agreed. Although I understand some reservations when you're dealing with an industry that oft puts exploitation first and tits at teens (be they girl tits or man tits) to the forefront some folks can get a little jaded. It saddens me that the actions of an industry come to bear on those who do try and break out of that mould. It seems a little like saying "You can't have Luke Haines because Boyzone exist" or something.

And in all fairness, a lot of people who truly believe they're some sort of mould breaking auteur are little more than stunted idiots with a malformed view of the world or self publicising idiots (or both!), which is partly why I found Edmund "refreshing". It's clearly been made for neither of the above reasons and we're a bit short on that in this old gamespace.

This isn't something we should be tucking under the carpet, ashamedly, in case the populace fear it. Cripes, any other medium would treasure it and scream it from the rooftops.

[JGOware]

Surely you could have found something better to do with your time.

[aiursrage2k]

So because we have been desensitized to violence you thought it was good idea to start on rape.

[Oddbob]

That's neither been said nor implied anywhere in the thread to date, man.

[defanual]

I think the difference between violence and something like rape is it's something we see almost everyday (right, wrong or extreme). It's also something we've experienced in one form or another and there's context and argument for it been actually necessary in certain scenarios (self defence for instance).

Rape on the other hand has no instance of been argued by normal human beings as ever being necessary or something to be trivialised like violence which is trivialised everyday by publications like news / media let alone games (zombie being killed comparison is a bad one) / movies. It's like asking why violence is okay but paedophilia isn't.

The point is whether people played the game or not, most / all watched the video and you choose not to demonstrate a deeper meaning or careful / mature handling with the subject matter in the video (perhaps to provoke these reactions), therefore it shouldn't really be any surprise that the majority of people are gonna find it extreme and / or distasteful and respond (rightfully or wrongfully) in the manner they have.

[Reives Freebird]

Sam's post and the controversy convinced me to see what the actual game was about.

What I thought everyone who haven't played it should know (And shame on the OP for misleading it with the opening post's video, despite it proving to be an effect strategy for attention.):

What this game is to rape is not the equivalent of GTA is to killing. GTA glorified all sorts of activities that were morally wrong (which I sense that most here were still fine with), this game did not glorify rape.

In fact, I felt it did an astonishing job of condemning it.

We're all horrified by rape, and that's what made this game so creepy, bizarre, and disturbing. My wife used to wait at a bus stop once a week, late at night in San Francisco while pregnant with my first...

Heck, if I'd played this game back then it would have done me some good not to allow her out into such risk.

This was the exact kind of feeling I immediately felt, too.

I was also impressed to find a way to beat the game within a few seconds - simply walk away. When you do that, the game ends. Nothing happens. The horrible act is never committed. The strange sense of satisfaction in that was something that no other game I know has achieved.

In regards to the game's production values, I found it impressive that it achieved something that state of the art 3D graphics could not: An atmosphere that sends a chill up your spine. It did an excellent job of reflecting the horrendous nature of the act. At no point in the game was there a feeling of actual "fun" or what so ever from the act of rape (just the contrary), where as in GTA, I think many here found it fun to throw a grenade into a club full of innocent civilians.

There is a vast difference between about something, and supporting something.

I think this thread has turned into each person clamoring louder than the next in a sort of competition to see who can be the most anti-rape.

^That.
("I was the FIRST to go to war!!!")

[Cdnalsi]

I love how people get offended (or any kind of reaction for that matter) by video games.

It's really very simple. There's this game, and then there's real life. I can bet my hat right now the developer of this game is NOT a rapist.

People who get offended by this type of media are the same people who can't tell right from wrong, video game from reality, and end up shooting people up in a school somewhere in the US, just because they played Max Payne 10 minutes ago.

Or start plowing through parks with their cars just because they played GTA 10 minutes ago.

It's media, it's FICTION. Just like movies, and books. Jesus! Get a grip, get a sense of reality.

[HDL]

I think Neil Gaiman puts it far more eloquently than I ever could. I think the same applies to computer games. http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/1...ky-speech.html

Of course this is a private messageboard and as such the rules of freedom of speech don't come into play.

It's not a game I'll ever play. I looked at the trailer and it disgusted me. The initial post and the trailer made it seem as if it was a game that glorified violence against women and the whole rape=funny lolz issues.

Do you ban Dangerous Highschool Girls in Trouble which also tackles the subject of rape? I was fully opposed to the moral outrage by people who'd never played the game that erupted over on a certain portal.

[320x240]

I am offended by the pretence and lack of integrity displayed by the originator of this thread.

If you really feel for something and believe you have something to offer, you should at least come prepared and ready to share your thoughts with us. Do not hide behind quasi-intellectual oneliners - tell us what you really think.

This is not genuine and simply tells of a man who lacks the courage to be himself.

[Deva]

"Sex is violence." - Janes Addiction

Let's just keep the violent game a'rollin', then. How many people are morally against this, but have no problem with games where you shoot everyone on sight? The hypocrisy.

[Junkyard Sam]

I think the word RAPE is driving the controversy. What if the word RAPE wasn't used in the original post - just "assault." MAYBE even "sexual assault." I don't think people would have reacted quite as strongly.

Also, be real careful with just condemning things across the board... Some well meaning child-pornography laws were passed in Florida that actually made some not-so-hardcore comics "technically" against the law... And in one case there was an actual prosecution with one of these stupid anime style comics, and the poor kid ended up on the "sexual predator/sex crime" list even though his crime was a stupid nerd comic. (Edit: NO I don't look at such things, I hate all comics.)

Strong opposition to things like this can drive the passage of laws that end up selectively applied for political reasons, or even worse - applied by politicians wanting to make a name for themselves while destroying the lives of harmless nerds.


I don't mean to go off topic...

The game itself was higher quality than I expected it to be, particularly with the atmospheric, film, and sound design. It was WAY more powerful than the average Flash game.

So it wasn't JUST an in-your-face controversial game. The guy did put some time into it. I also think some of the opinions expressed here may be out of a subconscious resentment for this guy getting a lot of attention based on controversy rather than quality - but I think some ASSUME that without actually playing.

Again, the game itself has higher production qualities than 99 out of 100 Flash games.

PS. The ability to walk away in-game without getting into the whole rape bit is genius. I did that repeatedly at first and thought I was hitting a bug... If you simply hit "up" at the start of the game, which I did to try to jump --- it exits out. (He could have made this more clear. The game needs some work in terms of letting the player know which ending he hit and how many more endings are possible to achieve.)

But the idea that you don't have to commit the rape opens up a whole additional aspect to the game. Also at the end - I shot the girl, but I assume there's a different ending if you shoot the guy... And I remember having an interesting internal dialog as to "Who should I shoot?" It wasn't an emotional/moral issue for me, it was an issue of "which ending do I want to see?" But still... dilemma = gameplay.

Anyhow, I've spent $60 for Xbox360 games that affected me far less than this game did so I gotta give the guy credit... And it was neat to see how different people reacted.

Does anyone that first reacted so strongly, negatively, feel a little silly now by any chance? After all, it's technically just a silly little pixel game. Hardly anything that's going to inspire violence.

ON THE OTHER HAND, where do you draw the line?! I hear this guy is working on a child-molestation game next and even I think that's way over the line.

[Desktop Gaming]

tell me what you think, good or bad.

Why the hell would you write that in your first post, then whine and bitch at people for telling you what they think?

Regardless of what the game is or is not, you've deliberately created a promotional video for it which is about as violent as it gets depicting a woman being beaten and raped. Only graphics? Only a game? It made me look away. Is that what you wanted?

If you ever knew women who had been beaten and/or raped then perhaps you wouldn't be so blase in your use of the theme. I didn't know you'd previously written a game about kicking babies. My last word on the subject - you need professional psychiatric attention.

[Maupin]

(And shame on the OP for misleading it with the opening post's video, despite it proving to be an effect strategy for attention.)

Agreed 100% on this point.

[Reives Freebird]

PS. The ability to walk away in-game without getting into the whole rape bit is genius. I did that repeatedly at first and thought I was hitting a bug... If you simply hit "up" at the start of the game, which I did to try to jump --- it exits out. (He could have made this more clear. The game needs some work in terms of letting the player know which ending he hit and how many more endings are possible to achieve.)

Eh, the way I did was just to walk back to the taxi; I haven't tried pressing up but that sounds like it may indeed have been a bug. But either way, the feature's there.

Also at the end - I shot the girl, but I assume there's a different ending if you shoot the guy... And I remember having an interesting internal dialog as to "Who should I shoot?" It wasn't an emotional/moral issue for me, it was an issue of "which ending do I want to see?" But still... dilemma = gameplay.

When you shoot the rapist, the game ends. Apparently, the other guy with the gun you control to hunt down the rapist is actually the moral conscience of the rapist - and at the end you have the option of either have the rapist "kill himself", or let the last bit of the morality fade.


I really don't blame the ones who reacted in a knee-jerking fashion as they did, though. The OP ad's representation (mainly by the sole video) was terrible and his replies didn't make things better. But none the less, I agree with Sam in that the actual game was one of the more meaningful ones I've played.

[Crimson Knight]

I was utterly repulsed by this game. And the way the trailer was presented didn't help things when I first saw it.

If certain people here thought a game about rape was bad though, they should go to the movie theater. You'll find all kinds of nasty smut in movies, intended for children.

[Stefan Lundmark]

I too reacted in the same way as most of the people posting here. One has to remember though, that most games out there today, and many of our own indie games are based on violence and in most cases the killing of other people.

How is rape any less worse than depriving someone of their life? I get everyone's point and I too found the game disgusting, but should I?

[Farmergnome]

The OP ad's representation (mainly by the sole video)

The video was intended that way as I didn't want to mislead people into the game, I can guarantee you would feel more violated clicking that .EXE and seeing the video rape scene in real-time than simply watching it on a cropped you tube link. Its not the nicest scene in the game, but it gives people clear warning what the game contains, so I don't get stupid emails saying I made them rape Emily...

[Farmergnome]

If you ever knew women who had been beaten and/or raped then perhaps you wouldn't be so blase in your use of the theme. I didn't know you'd previously written a game about kicking babies. .

Actually ive dated 2 of them, if you had of read the TIGSource post 3 of the thread before mouthing off you would have read that my inspiration came from that.

Ive also made a game about throwing babies from airplanes down spikey canyons, if that's more your thing...

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=1242.0/

My last word on the subject - you need professional psychiatric attention.

That's more than one word.

[Game Producer]

why the game is definitely brutal, I don't think the moderators should jump in and ban the post. Maybe sticky a warning or something on it.

Well, the thread has a word "rapist" in it. That should be some sort of hint about the content.

killing vs rape
rape indeed goes like a worse level than killing. Or even torturing. There's some games where you have comical graphics and torturing (where people scream hilariously). That's obviously "allowed" to show (although I think a realistic torturing game would get a load of controversial discussion).

In games:
- Killing is accepted.
- Cartoony torturing is accepted.
- (Realistic torturing probably not)
- Rape isn't accepted (even cartoony)

Of course there's different people, and some people might not accept killing, but if I had to rank this stuff - the above ranking probably goes to some extent.

Simply put, rape is found so offensive that even cartoony rape games are getting a big red sign. I don't know why that is, but this is how I personally feel. Couldn't find a reason why I think this way.

removal of thread
I'd personally wish to move this type of controversial topics to some different section or something. I also think that if majority of the community wishes to remove/lock the thread, then that should happen.

(We are still discussing this with the mods).

[Game Producer]

"My last word on the subject - you need professional psychiatric attention."

"That's more than one word."

And the next person to continue this type of insulting is seriously in danger of getting slapped with a large trout.

Let's keep this in topic. No personal attacks are needed from anybody - we all know how to act professional - and can discuss civilized (Even when it's about a controversial topic), right?

No flamewars, m'kay?

Please continue

[Farmergnome]

Well, the thread has a word "rapist" in it. That should be some sort of hint about the content.

killing vs rape
rape indeed goes like a worse level than killing. Or even torturing. There's some games where you have comical graphics and torturing (where people scream hilariously). That's obviously "allowed" to show (although I think a realistic torturing game would get a load of controversial discussion).

In games:
- Killing is accepted.
- Cartoony torturing is accepted.
- (Realistic torturing probably not)
- Rape isn't accepted (even cartoony)

Of course there's different people, and some people might not accept killing, but if I had to rank this stuff - the above ranking probably goes to some extent.

Is it because games as a medium is still immature? I would love a solid answer why movies and books, shit, almost anything can touch on the darker side of humanity, yet games are limited to what players accept?

Why is raping another human being worse than killing another human being?

Why is killing so widespread and accepted? Why do we let kids play GTA and everything else with a gun? Yet soon as someone says the R-word...

I'm not saying shit, lets make rape games now everyone! I'm saying, if your going to ban rape games from the forum, why not killing too?

Couldn't find a reason why I think this way.

I want to know that reason why you think this way, I know it may not be a easy thing to answer, but doesn't hurt to ask

[Game Producer]

I want to know that reason why you think this way, I know it may not be a easy thing to answer, but doesn't hurt to ask

I asked that question to myself when I wrote that post, and the answer is: I honestly don't know why.

(I got fever now, and sore throat, so ... I'll rest now and see if I have something sensible to add later)

[Columbo]

I think some people are making the point, why is widespread violence OK and sex not OK?

That is a very valid point, particularly for the US and to a lesser extent the UK where violence in games, movies and TV seems to be far more acceptable than sex. In some European countries like Germany, they seem to have a more sensible balance between the two.

I think the majority of people agree that sexual violence is worse (i.e. more taboo) than sex or violence alone, and we generally expect art forms to treat it with a degree of sensitivity that appears to be lacking here.

I'm sure it's possible to point toward examples of sexual violence being addressed in crass ways in literature, movies, TV, and other more mainstream artforms. It doesn't validate your own cheap sensationalism and insensitivity to the subject though just because you can point at others.

I'm against censorship. It doesn't stop me getting a bit angry though that something has been created to deliberately court controversy and garner cheap publicity which will very likely end up upsetting some real people (i.e. victims of sexual violence - I'm not too worried about the sensibilities of the Christian right-wing or Daily Mail knee-jerk reactions).

[jcottier]

why is widespread violence OK and sex not OK?

Beating and raping a girl is NOT sex! I can't believe I had to write that. Isn't that just plain obvious?

JC

[Columbo]

Yes - The point I was trying to make is that previous posters were starting to talk about the strangeness of (some) society's acceptance of violence while rejecting sexual content.

I was then trying to distinguish that sexual violence is an entirely different thing from both sex and violence. Obviously not clearly enough.

[Farmergnome]

I think the majority of people agree that sexual violence is worse (i.e. more taboo) than sex or violence alone, and we generally expect art forms to treat it with a degree of sensitivity that appears to be lacking here.

Dude, did you even play it? "Appears to be lacking"? Common man, atleast play it if your going to comment on whats lacking, Ive treated the subject matter pretty carefully, you don't have to rape anything, you can get back in the taxi as soon as the game begins, so please don't high and mighty me about whats "Appears to be lacking".

It doesn't validate your own cheap sensationalism and insensitivity to the subject though just because you can point at others.

Dude, read my posts, so hopefully I can stop saying this, the inspiration for this game is knowing rape victims, if I'm trying to make a point about anything, I'm trying to make a point at Michael/Eddie, the rapist, not the victim. I hope you go and play the game and understand that rape isn't enforced to finish the game, sure you wont get the ending or closure you want, but it will finish the game.

Here's a nice prompt since this has moved a little off topic, I would love for you to try my game peoples, if you don't want to, just leave, I wont be offended, you don't need to force your ill-informed posts about my game in this post, just click the little back arrow. Its really not that hard.