RetroRunner

[Maupin]

It could be a bug maupin. How long was he stuck for before you gave up? He's only spose to be stuck for 1 sec. After that it can only be wrong controls. Have you checked the controls?

He was stuck for at least twenty seconds while I tried all sorts of keys. Arrow keys, adsw, space, enter, etc.

[Nexic]

So let's get this right, you think:

- It's the best lode runner game ever.
- There is no need to spend time working on graphics.
- It's the player's job to make your graphics look presentable by changing their settings.
- The fact that it runs way too fast to be playable is apparently a good thing, because that's how you like it.
- All bugs are the fault of the player.

You need to drop this way of thinking if you want to become a respected game developer.

[Applewood]

Ah, I think I know what the prob is. Your not the 1st to complain on this. I'm a hardcore gamer, you're not.

Hmmm. How do you know what my favourite games types are? I'd put you straight but it's clear what you read is different from what's written so it's be pointless.

I'm not going to, I don't like doing so. I'm amused by your method though. Unobjectively insult people, then accuse them of insulting you. It's back to front.

Actually, I didn't insult you. And I didn't accuse you of insulting me. Wasting my time maybe, but not directly insulting me.

I've IDed your insult. Are you going to show me any one of my insults you keep accusing me of throwing?

I've no idea what "IDing" means, but I'd be interested to see just one of the places where I accuse you of throwing insults.

Please go troll somewhere else. Or grow up. Or both.

[meemoe_uk]

>He was stuck for at least twenty seconds while I tried all sorts of keys. Arrow keys, adsw, space, enter, etc.

Well it must be a bug. I need to find and test it a PC like yours because I've not had such a prob on those I've tested it on so far. Will get on with it. Thanks.

Hi Matt, I agree that 'don't look back' is a model for the 'optimise quick get into' principle.
I'm concerned that such games feel too familiar. There's something wrong with a game striving above anything else to feel like every other game in an effort to minimize introduction awkwardness. It's like striving to be as generic as possible. There's got to be a balance, new stuff at the cost of awkwardness.
I do much prefer it though compared to the other method of minimizing intro awkwardness - Massive amounts of 'bubble wrapping' aka long drawn out tutorials, that too many games these days come with, which simply replace one problem with another.

[Applewood]

>6 years is a typo, right ?
>Surely you mean days ?

Here's my reply to applewood

thankyou for taking the time to comment on my game

LOL, I can almost feel the petulance. Did you stamp your foot?

You seem genuinely shocked at the response you're getting to your announcement. If you think that taking six years to produce this is going to impress anyone then you should seriously rethink your presentation

Seriously, there are many people on this board, in fact many in this very thread, that could produce a better and more finished work in six days. I'm one of them, nexic is another and matthias a third. Apologies to the others for not writing an exhaustive list, but having just looked down it I think we all could.

This thread would've turned out very differently if you'd posted your program and asked how to turn it into a marketable game. To claim this is 6 years worth of work, even part-time, and it's the dogs bollocks is just so far out of whack with reality that I'm starting to think this whole thread is some sort of forum-based "candid camera" stunt.

[Adrian Cummings]

Whilst I have personally seen more gameplay in an old Amiga bootblock loader, I do wonder sometimes why you get drawn into these threads Applewood... don't you all have some paying work to do or something LOL

[Applewood]

So do I tbh.

What touches me off is not sub-par work, though that's bad enough, but it's when people tell me their sub-par work is soooo very good. (And definitely when it opens with post #1.) I guess I take it personally being someone who's actually trying to do things properly.

And right now I'm doing indie stuff again.

[AlexWeldon]

So do I tbh.

What touches me off is not sub-par work, though that's bad enough, but it's when people tell me their sub-par work is soooo very good. (And definitely when it opens with post #1.) I guess I take it personally being someone who's actually trying to do things properly.

I've often defended people from Applewood's wrath in the past, but having gotten to know him better personally, I understand it better - he's very good at what he does, and has been doing it a long time, and I tend to have the same reaction when it comes to bad graphic design.

If someone shows me a really awful design and says "I'm just starting out, and I know this doesn't look right, but any advice is appreciated," I'll be polite and helpful. If they show up on a design forum posting crap that's just clip art with a bunch of Photoshop filters indiscriminately applied and say it's something they actually took money for and look like they're fishing for compliments, I'll get angry, because it that kind of attitude is an insult to all the professional designers out there who went to school and practiced for years to get where they are.

[Mattias Gustavsson]

For me, it's not so much a matter of feeling that it is an insult when people pass of bad stuff as good. What ticks me off is when someone get feedback from people (however harshly worded), and instead of appreciating the fact that someone's even taken the time to comment, they go off explaining why the person commenting is wrong.

I'd love it if I got this many answers when I posted something for feedback - even if it was people pointing out flaws and things they don't like Criticism, in all forms, is a help to improve.

[Applewood]

Thanks, Alex - you've made me blush now

Criticism, in all forms, is a help to improve

Whilst I did post a few helpful bits, my "six years?" comment wasn't an attempt to help. I thought he was taking the piss, so I gave him some back. I still can't believe it can take anyone that long even to make something that's good!

[Nexic]

That's about 10 minutes per week, or a single 10 hour day once a year.

[AlexWeldon]

For me, it's not so much a matter of feeling that it is an insult when people pass of bad stuff as good. What ticks me off is when someone get feedback from people (however harshly worded), and instead of appreciating the fact that someone's even taken the time to comment, they go off explaining why the person commenting is wrong.

I'd love it if I got this many answers when I posted something for feedback - even if it was people pointing out flaws and things they don't like Criticism, in all forms, is a help to improve.

Well yeah, that goes without saying. But you can usually tell from the tone of the first post whether or not the person's going to be receptive to criticism. If someone says "Look at this awesome (whatever) I made," and it sucks, you can bet they're going to start mouthing off when people with 10x the talent and 100x the experience tell them they're not as hot shit as they think they are.

Conversely, I hate it when a newcomer posts something not so great but is modest about it, and everyone ridicules them. That's not cool, since anything we do, we all started off as a noob... but most of us knew we were no good when we started and were willing to learn, or else we couldn't have gotten any better.

But therein lies the answer as to how this person could spend six years on something and still have it suck - unwillingness to accept that there's any need to improve.

[JGOware]

What's really sad is when friends and family say crap like, "wow..that's a good game, good job, very impressive, you're a game coder!" and then you set up your page, get your commerce site up and running, advertise on a few sites, and no orders come in. That first taste of reality is very shocking some times. And then you think...wow...in the same time span I could have been serving fries and made more money. yikes.....

[AlexWeldon]

What's really sad is when friends and family say crap like, "wow..that's a good game, good job, very impressive, you're a game coder!" and then you set up your page, get your commerce site up and running, advertise on a few sites, and no orders come in. That first taste of reality is very shocking some times. And then you think...wow...in the same time span I could have been serving fries and made more money. yikes.....

Yeah... everyone thinks they're doing a favour by being encouraging, but I'd much rather get praise from strangers and honest criticism from friends than the other way around. Fortunately, my friends and family tend to be very honest with me, but ever since I moved away from board games and into computer games, they just don't know enough to be particularly helpful. But at least they're honest about that too, rather than just telling me they think everything I do is awesome when they have no frame of reference to judge it by.

[320x240]

I couldn't actually get past the first sign either, so I can't comment on the actual gameplay, which is a pity, as I love games such as this. I wonder if it's really a Loderunner clone though and not more of a generalized platformer with a cave-dwelling hero. Personally I hate it when scrolling is employed in a Loderunner-clone, as being able to see what the enemies are up to at all times is so vital to the game. This could be a good game nontheless. I'm in the process of finishing something similar myself.

The general impression I get from the presentation of the game is that while care has gone into it the parts that are directly linked with the gameplay, like the redefinable keys, other parts have not had much work done on them at all. It's like you made the designs a long time ago and never bothered to update them through the years. This really comes across as laziness rather than a certain style or attitude and I think it is this that rubs people the wrong way. Underneat this rough exterior the game could be a shining diamond, but it is up to you to polish it so that it can shine.

[Grey Alien]

I've spent 6 years on it, so it's pretty tidy, the goal was to make the best LR, i.e. alot better than the XLBA version. Have I succeeded? You decide!

I don't think the first post was too "This game rocks and I'm ace". It states a goal and asks "Have I succeeded?, which is OK. The only bit of blow own trumpet is "it's pretty tidy". So perhaps the responses are a little harsh (even if the content is accurate).

[Applewood]

You missed the bit about this game being better than the original...

[Cevo70]

I have to admit, it scares me a bit to see this sort of reaction from the people I aspire to be like, and hope to have to give me feedback on my project at some point.

Of course I tend to act and present myself as the beginner that I am, so maybe I won't unleash quite the same wrath. I am also working with some obvious talent on my team which is nice.

My concern is that younger devs, foreign devs, or those just having trouble conveying tone via text are going to get mishandled here. I honestly didn't think he was being anything more than a "hype man" for his own game which is more just a bad approach I guess if you're truly looking for feedback.

Still though, I have a hard time understanding the raw anger and cruelty. I am not in your shoes, so I am sure it's a different perspective.

[Mattias Gustavsson]

I think that a big part of it is that many of us still think of this forum as a place for professional indies to exchange ideas on how to sell games - and not so much a place for people new to game making to hang out for a laugh.

I do wish people would lurk for a longer time before posting - then maybe we would have less of this...

[Nexic]

I have to admit, it scares me a bit to see this sort of reaction from the people I aspire to be like, and hope to have to give me feedback on my project at some point.

I really doubt you'd get the same reaction.

[andrew]

Eh, give the guy a break -- are all the snarky comments really necessary?

Yeah, it looks dated (not in a good way), and it's head-scratching how it took 6 years to make, but maybe there's a market out there for the world's most sped-up Lode Runner clone. Who knows. At least he got something finished, unlike 95% of people on gamedev forums.

- andrew

[Applewood]

but maybe there's a market out there for the world's most sped-up Lode Runner clone. Who knows

Well, the people in here know. Although that's not actually true anymore. Most people here seem to be n00bs looking to pat each other on the back instead of learning something.

[Mattias Gustavsson]

Yes. And it wasn't always like that... pity

[Cevo70]

I think that a big part of it is that many of us still think of this forum as a place for professional indies to exchange ideas on how to sell games - and not so much a place for people new to game making to hang out for a laugh.

I do wish people would lurk for a longer time before posting - then maybe we would have less of this...

I hear yah. Hopefully you guys still have a nice internal network of communication for higher-level talk.

I am learning a ton here though, my project is benefiting as a result, and I think in general there is a really healthy exchange of ideas among all kinds on these forums. That's definitely thanks to large proportion of professionals compared to other forums. Hopefully you do gain some satisfaction from helping less experienced devs.

[Mattias Gustavsson]

Hopefully you do gain some satisfaction from helping less experienced devs.

Of course we do. That's why we're here. But having been around for a while, means we're not so inclined to sugar-coat everything - and those who have a hard time dealing with that, might be better off at other forums that have a more encouraging focus.

[Applewood]

Hopefully you do gain some satisfaction from helping less experienced devs.

Absolutely. Speaking for myself, I love doing that, as I remember what it was like for me starting out without the internet. I'm in two other threads right now being helpful and polite.

What I won't stand for is know-nowts arguing with experienced professionals. If you come here as newbie, show a bad attitude, show a really bad game and then start arguing the toss with old hands when you're at post #1, then the story will run very different..

[Grey Alien]

You missed the bit about this game being better than the original...

So i did.

So maybe if some pros are getting fed up of noobs flooding the forum (but don't forget we were all noobs once) they should use the private forum more often (it's pretty much dead). Or maybe the announcements can be split into pro and hobby announcements? There's also the feedback thread of course but that can be for work in progress right? Just looking for possible solutions...

[Applewood]

No amount of rules will change anything. This forum's very name states that it's for independent game developers, which rules out hobbiests and n00bz.

The problem is, if anyone has ever loaded a png from a file, they seem to consider themselves independent game developers nowadays.

I don't even mind the n00bz tbh, just not those who think they know more than we do.

We've been here before.

[Adrian Cummings]

Although I rarely agree with anyone (being fully indie in every repsect) and a grumpy old git with a hangover today LOL... I have to agree with Applewood here in the most part. Noob's should be made welcome here but perhaps in playpen area or just lurk for a while longer so they can get a grip on true indie reality first, before coming in here all guns and telling the pro's how it all is etc. blah, whatever, gets very boring.

True we all had to start somewhere and new talent will always needed in any industry to make real progress, but not at the price of forgetting to learn some respect for your peers who probably know more than you perhaps do currently in the universe of indie games.

By the way i'm not statiing I am a pro at anything in particular - I'm not, but I am an old git which gives me some wisdom points by default if nothing else in this biz

[tolik]

To hijack this thread even more, I'd say this looks n00bish and has nothing to do with Indie. That is a mediocre student test assignment in CS.

Anyone here could update their 10 year old sources and say

AWESOME! IT FEELS JUST LIKE IT MUST FEEL, NOT LIKE A CRAPPY X360 VERSION!!! AND IT'S UNDER 64K!!! TOOK ME 10 YEARS TO MAKE THIS BLOCK PROPERLY ROTATE SO IT FEELS AUTHENTIC!!!

This should've been moved to a special "n00b" game subforum which doesn't exist. We have too many of n00b stuff posted that detracts from the long gone cool image of the forum that was here with all the beta tests of exciting products that rarely pop in, get 3 comments and go out of the front page in favor of updates and some free gfx packs. What would these beta products get on our forum? Few posts how the screenshots are cool, but I didn't play the game. Great. I haven't seen any great gameplay or biz analytics here in years.
If you'd be a n00b here nowadays and would look at that forum, you'd see a lot of n00b games, content packs, alternative platform releases and some game update news.

The forum isn't educating noobs with at least a proper sticky post that f*cking leads them to news sites, such as indiegames.com/blog/ to give them a feeling what is a modern indie freeware spirit is about, what is indie about and what should've been an open source game engine or something. How about "Please play decent games and make decent games."?

This forum missed a transition between original underground indie scene that was represented by GameTunnel few years ago and a modern that is represented by all those teams who only announce their games on this forum after they pop up on Steam & IGF, not while they are in development as the forum simply stopped lacking credibility.

There are few things that you'd see on the forum nowadays:
- n00b freeware that is represented by gamemaker community that eventually started to have it's awesome pearls! but we never experience any of those here as the guys don't get out of their communities.
- middleware/game engines that are that aren't properly exposed and explained and still don't deserve a special section
- the forum caught a strong wave of casual, though, but since then lost the traction as it never exposed it properly
- alternative platforms that never deserved their own section - so people visiting this forum lacked a feeling it welcomes them, however now everything is flooded with iPhone so other decent games get buried
- we have a total lack of professional freeware dudes that are all about creativity - represented by indiegames.com/blog/ and IGF
- online transition was welcomed as "boo flash lame!!!" until the crisis striked and advertisement prices have gone down. just some local rebels here post decent stuff that nobody takes serious while it's more important than another n00b game.

A lack of proper forum restructuring a year ago made it oversaturated by people who didn't move on and are rebelling against the change. There's no proper forum structure that will explain any person coming to this forum that it welcomes any platform. Once again, a lack of product sorting by platform/technology makes good games simply buried instead of staying where they should be noticed. A ranking system inside the forum should really encourage people to post better games and make better games...

It lacks moderation. It lacks direction, where moderators would lead people instead of providing them a greasy SANDBOX saying "well there's all that great legacy, try to get what you are into".

Adrian, how would they get a tune of Indie? By checking long abandoned links at the bottom of the forum - like Retro64 and Twilight Game sites? They must be properly taught, and this forum leaves it entirely up to them.

Freaking give me admin rights and I'll fix that grease and lead it.