Will a 2d Sidescroller for the PC still sell?

[StarDust interactive]

Hi guys,

First of all, my name is JC, head of StarDust interactive. We specialize on game development outsourcing; currently developing big budgeted projects from the US and the UK.

Anyway, sometime near the future we plan to create games of our own to build us an identity. Judging from my current team's size (over 10 people, all pros and veteran game developers), i plan to create small to medium scale games first, and being a fan of old school games, one of them would be a 2d sidescroller game.

Now my question is, will a 2d sidescroller game for the PC still sell? This doesn't necessarily mean that we'd use pure 2d graphics,by the way. We could create it like the more recent sidescrollers wherein everything is in 3d but with 2d gameplay.

Any kind of help will be appreciated. Thank you!

[Jack Norton]

2d sidescrollers would actually be one of the worst selling genre (all shooters in general). Ask around for more info to be sure, but that's what I know.

[Cevo70]

Weak on PC, better on console. (my personal take - Alien Hominid, Castle Crashers, and even some XBCG titles like Weapon of Choice and that Biscuit Romp or whatever)

Sidenote: I've been meaning to look up the success of the new Bionic Comando on XBLA. It's a tight game with some solid fanboy backing, but I am not sure if it was a commercial success. (not totally relevant, but might be a good gauge for general reception)

[Dark Octave]

If I am remembering correctly, Bionic Commando: Rearmed set record sales between XBLA and PSN.

Console is for sure the place to go if you are developing a 2D shooter. If it's good, it should do well.

Not sure on how they sell on PC but it's a great way to get the game out there to put on consoles even if the PC sales aren't that great. I don't know how it did on PC but Platypus made it to PSP after that.

[StarDust interactive]

2d sidescrollers would actually be one of the worst selling genre (all shooters in general). Ask around for more info to be sure, but that's what I know.

No, I'm not referring to shooters directly. I was talking about sidescrollers / platformers like Castlevania or Megaman. I guess you're right - sidescrollers would sell better on consoles. I'd still like to take the risk though. But thank you guys for replying.

[Jack Norton]

Well a game like castlevania would rule But as I said, I think unfortunately in term of sales wouldn't be a good move (at least on PC).

[320x240]

If the game is good enough it will sell, even on the PC. Why would this be otherwise? There's a large enough audience out there that are willing to pay. The problem is that most new platformers/shmups with 2d gameplay are either rubbish (the bad ones) or bland (the good ones).

Let's face it, most games of this sort made today are the products of 'happy' amateurs and not professionals on top of their game. Add to this the fact that most are neither geared towards the hardcore nor the casual crowd and you have a recipe for disaster. You have to have a target audience when you make niche games.

[Jack Norton]

If the game is good enough it will sell, even on the PC. Why would this be otherwise?

I know sales figures of some of the best pc shooters and they can't compete with an average HO/time management game.

[DizzyDoo]

Let's face it, most games of this sort made today are the products of 'happy' amateurs and not professionals on top of their game. Add to this the fact that most are neither geared towards the hardcore nor the casual crowd and you have a recipe for disaster.

I don't know, I can think of many excellent side scrolling shoot em ups/action platformer type games that I thoroughly enjoyed the demos of.

[JGOware]

Shitty sidescrollers won't sell. Good ones will. Plain and simple.

[jcottier]

sidescrollers would sell better on consoles. I'd still like to take the risk though. But thank you guys for replying.

Then why did you ask? Everybody is telling you that it's probably not a good idea and it will make complete sense to do it on console but you just don't want listen...

If you are a good PC dev team, you should have no problems to create your game for the xbox too.

One more problem with PC platform games: controls. You can't expect each player to have a good pad. You can on console.

BTW, I'm the real JC

Good luck with your project.

JC

[Jason Chong]

No portals will carry the game.

You're fully on your own.

[StarDust interactive]

Then why did you ask? Everybody is telling you that it's probably not a good idea and it will make complete sense to do it on console but you just don't want listen...

If you are a good PC dev team, you should have no problems to create your game for the xbox too.

One more problem with PC platform games: controls. You can't expect each player to have a good pad. You can on console.

BTW, I'm the real JC

Good luck with your project.

JC

My previous post (the one you quoted) was for those who replied before you, that's why seemingly i've made up my mind based on their answers, hence the "I guess you're right - " phrase before the "sidescrollers would sell better on consoles. I'd still like to take the risk though." phrase.

Regardless, thanks for the advice JC.

A bit off - topic though, my real name is June Carl, hence the nickname JC. But anyways, from now on i'll be referring to myself as StarDust interactive instead of my name so all of us can be friends.

Back to our topic, the sidescroller game project is not the only project we're planning; there's two 3d games (an action RPG and an MMORPG) in line, as well as a couple of Iphone games. Hopefully all you Senior Members here can help me out from time to time.

[Jack Norton]

Well, no portals unless they make a flash game:
http://www.kongregate.com/games/BoMT...rtal-defenders

this is quite impressive

[princec]

Everything sells. The question is, in what numbers? It's pretty hard to reach sidescrolling shooter fans as most of them have moved away from PC gaming to console gaming. Or so it would appear.

Cas

[Adrian Cummings]

Do what you want I reckon and if you listen to 'all' the advice you'll get here you'll get knowhere fast other than maybe a headache LOL.

If you are going for it on iPhone there is probably a bit more hope tho (maybe) for a side scroller.

I was just working on 20+ year old vertical shooter of mine resurected from the dead for iPhone but I have put back on the shelf for a bit while I make more cash with the more usual type stuff that pays in my case.

If you are not happy producing what your currently on however it will come out totally crap and you'll prolly make no sales anyway, so best stick with what YOU want to do if you're sure and do it to the best of your ability and nevermind everyone else - else sadly you'd be wasting your time.

If it fails after that then least you tried eh - better to try than not in this world is my only advice!

[Andrej Vojtas]

Well, Braid is coming to PC in a couple of weeks, maybe days. Checkout the sales. It's one of the bestsellers on XBLA. And a 2D sidescroller from the visual standpoint.

2D sidescroller is just a visual perspective for me, not genre, gameplay. And genre and gameplay is more related to sales then visual perspective.

What is the gameplay you have in mind: puzzle (Lost Vikings, Braid), action puzzle (Another World), arcade action (from Super Mario to Odin Sphere), realistic action (Prince of Persia, Flashback, Blackthorn), etc.

So part of the answer to your question lies also in gameplay you go for.

There is a 20+ team members developer of modern 2D sidescrollers: Vanilaware: Odin Sphere (PS2), Muramasa: The Daemon Blade (in development for Wii). It's an action beat-them-up with some "RPG" elements. Their unique hook to sell is their art is hand drawn.

As far as I know Wii is one of the easier platforms to get on, so you may consider this as well.

[Mattias Gustavsson]

I'd still like to take the risk though.

Why? The reason to take a risk is that the reward for pulling it off against the odds is high enough. Which doesn't appear to be the case for sidescrollers.

Am I correct in assuming that the reason you'd want to make a sidescroller is more down to personal preference than it is part of a clever business plan? If that is indeed the case, why not make the game just for fun, and not worry about how to sell it, or in what numbers - it's mostly for your own enjoyment anyway, right?

[electronicStar]

Most indie devs report "sidescroller" sales are being disastrous.
That being said, I've never seen an indie sidescroller that I considered to be, ahem, very good.
Add to that the fact that the aficionados have been spoiled by decades of great to awesome games on arcades and consoles (still available via emulation). If your game can't compare to a standard arcade scroller from the eighties don't even try. I'm not even talking about the recent consoles. Take a look at the scrollers (2d and 3D) on the PS1. I'm not saying the PS3 because the japanese studios have mastered the genre so much that they seem to have become bored and abandoned it . XBLA is maybe the only place where you see a lot of "scrollers" nowadays, but keep in mind that the XBLA market ranks lower than the normal games market in player's minds (hence lower prices).
But I don't find the XBLA games to be very good anyway (a lot of indie games lol).
If you want to do it your game should be as good as the DS games (see castlevania) but I'm affraid that the spoiled PC players won't even flock to it unless you manage to revive their imagination somehow with somethig new...

If you can do 3D I imagine you would have more success with a 3D game, not a FPS, a game with simpler gameplay(comparable to sidescroller) but with 3D rendering.
Make it immersive, but at the same time give it that casual quality of being easy to pick up and play, easy to let go.

[Jack Norton]

That being said, I've never seen an indie sidescroller that I considered to be, ahem, very good.

check those:
http://jng.rakeingrass.com/
http://www.warblade.as/index.asp (this is vertical scroll, but still...!)

there are probably more but I'm not an expert of this genre.

[AlexWeldon]

If you're going to develop for PC, just think ahead and make sure you develop the game in such a way that porting it will be relatively easy. If you get good reviews but weak sales on PC, just port to XBLA or whatever and make money that way.

Maybe the key for PC sales would be getting it accepted on Steam? I don't know.

[320x240]

If you want to do it your game should be as good as the DS games (see castlevania) but I'm affraid that the spoiled PC players won't even flock to it unless you manage to revive their imagination somehow with somethig new...

Thats just it. It's hard to be 'edgy' and make a good game at the same time when your working in genres with a history such as these. The gameplay elements that really makes these games (and wich you leave out at your own peril) are the same gameplay elements that will be viewed as old and stale by most (and not without reason). You could say that both the shmup and the platformer genre have found their definite format and that any game that deviates to much from that will end up as something of a failed experiment, however interesting such a game may be in it's own right. To me it seems you have to choose between these two alternatives: edgy and bland or conform and good. The first one will sell, the second one will be given away for free... Braid is a good example of a game of the first kind.

As for myself, I'm trying to launch a little retro-game series using Flash and it will be interesting to see if it's possible to convert the more hardcore gamers to play browser-based games. Personally I can't stand it but at worst it will serve as an advertisement for a planned XBLA community game of the same kind. This can be a way of building hype too but one where the focus is on gameplay and not quasi-intellectual ramblings.

[Twitchfactor]

check those:
http://jng.rakeingrass.com/
http://www.warblade.as/index.asp (this is vertical scroll, but still...!)

there are probably more but I'm not an expert of this genre.

Those are shooters. Did he say "shooter"? Most of the time when people say "sidescroller", they mean "platformer" of some sort. On a side tangent about PC shooters, I find most of them to be bad, regardless of aesthetic quality. Their gameplay is sub-SNES, with top-down shooters always playing like Galaxian versus Raiden.

Anyway, what it comes down to is do what you feel, but make sure your investment matches your expected returns (ie: low), like any other business venture.

[Uhfgood]

To the OP: Most people here make casual games I think. So their heads are at that how to make the most money from casual games idea. No offense to anyone in here, or to anyone that has done any real research into the viability of scrollers.

A decent platformer or shoot'em up could make money, I think it has to be really good though.

[J Fizzle]

Most indie devs report "sidescroller" sales are being disastrous.
That being said, I've never seen an indie sidescroller that I considered to be, ahem, very good.

What?

Aquaria
Noitu Love 2
Gish
Cave Story
Braid
Soldat

[Backov]

I want someone to remake Rastan or Black Tiger. I'll buy that.

[Twitchfactor]

I want someone to remake Rastan or Black Tiger. I'll buy that.

+1!

If somebody was smart, they'd combine the two, do a snazzy job, put it out on PC / Mac / XBLA and do just fine. Throw a possible Wii / iphone / PSN sku and you're golden. There's a reason the days of "platform exclusive" is all but dead. Maximize the market!

[320x240]

I want someone to remake Rastan or Black Tiger. I'll buy that.

This illustrates what is possibly the biggest hurdle for newer 2d games - people only want remakes or a new game in an established series (witness Metal Slug, Castlevania, Mega Man, Super Mario Brothers, Ghosts'n Goblins, Elevator Action, Spelunker, Parodius, Thunder Force, Street Fighter, Bionic Commando etc.) and whats more, they accept that these games are being outsourced to second-rate studios, resulting in bland, uninspired games.

[Mattias Gustavsson]

What would be interesting would be to know the sales figures and development time for some of the existing, recent, sidescrollers. Anyone know or want to share that? I think that would be the best way to tell how profitable sidescrollers are...

[electronicStar]

What?

Aquaria
Noitu Love 2
Gish
Cave Story
Braid
Soldat

-Aquaria, I tried it but couldn't finish the demo because It was boring (but awesome production values)
-Noitu love 2 : yes, that one is actually good, although I disagree with the pixelart fetish and the low resolution choice.
-Gish: everything was too dark, I think they lost a lot of sales because of how dark the colours are . I couldn't go beyond that.
-Braid: not PC
-Cave story: freeware
-Soldat:I don't like multiplayer 2D

check those:
http://jng.rakeingrass.com/
http://www.warblade.as/index.asp (this is vertical scroll, but still...!)

-Rakein grass : awesome production values on all their games, but I don't appreciate the "humour" and the lack of seriousness on the story/background.
Warblade: never tried but it looks like it's still stuck in a 25 years old genre.