Idea for offering services - is this reasonable?

[Acord]

I was thinking of offering graphics services to developers in return for a percentage of the net profits of a game. What would be a reasonable percentage to ask?

[Cray]

Whatever's reasonable to you

How much of the graphics are you thinking about?

You'd basically be gambling on the other person's ability to finish/market/sell the game, and them being truthful reporting the amount. A couple tips for you though:

- Get your % as part of gross instead of net profits
- Make sure you can do something else with the artwork if the project isn't completed or doesn't meet expectations

[Backov]

I agree that the hardest part will be finding a reliable human to pair with, and vice versa (not saying anything about you specifically, but remember the other human will have the same concerns.)

I remember Musenik was looking for an art-partner - do you live in the Bay area?

[Richard Nunes]

I would recommend working with someone only if they have a portion of the game completed using their own hand-made art. They need to prove to you that they will actually finish and sell the game. I used my own placeholder art for over a year before looking for an artist. I want to know every image, where it goes, and how it's used. It's easier for the artist to see what I need, it prevents costly rework.

[OremLK]

It's more than reasonable to offer, but it leaves you more open to be taken advantage of or fall in with a project that never gets finished. I will agree with the points about asking for a percentage of revenue (not profit) and with looking for somebody who has a game well underway before pitching in with them.

There are far too many kids on the internet these days who want to have made a game, rather than wanting to make a game. They have fun ideas but no follow-through or knowledge of what it takes to actually finish something. So be very discretionary regarding who you partner with in this way.

Ideally you would partner with somebody who:
a) Has already released games and has an already-established customer base
b) Has been vouched for by people you trust
c) Has at least a working prototype of their game running, the more complete the better.

Obviously you may not be able to find a partner who meets all of these suggestions, but that is what I would look for.

[Acord]

I'd have to agree with most of this - sound advice. Obviously in a different situation I'd want cash as art was completed at certain milestones. Only ever got one crooked employer, and I don't want to repeat the experience.

I'd actually gotten two thoughts in opposite directions that occurred simultaneously.

First off, I'm not a good programmer, but I can use gamemaker to mock up 5 - 10 level concepts. Would it be a good idea to do this and then fish for programmers that are a lot more competent?

The second idea: Money at agreed upon milestones for completion, with an option to pay it back and get a percentage instead if the game is finished.

And yes, gross percentage pays a lot better, but net percentage is fairer if I'm just doing the art and not the business end

[Morgan Ramsay]

I was thinking of offering graphics services to developers in return for a percentage of the net profits of a game. What would be a reasonable percentage to ask?

Money now is always better than money later.

[ChrisP]

And yes, gross percentage pays a lot better, but net percentage is fairer if I'm just doing the art and not the business end

No it isn't - it's not fair on you. Net income is gross income minus expenditures, which sounds obvious until you realise that there's no hard-and-fast rule on what "expenditures" actually means.

For example, what if the other guy takes the gross income, pays the hosting bills, and then spends the rest on advertising? "Well, hey, I just spent all the gross income so I guess the net income is $0! Oh yeah, that makes your cut $0. Sorry dude. No hard feelings, right?" If the advertising doesn't work, then the other guy's bad decision has adversely impacted on your income - and there's nothing you can do about.

What if he gets cheeky (the evil kind of cheeky) and decides that "expenditures" includes a wage for himself?

Always get a percentage of gross income, never net income, because it avoids this kind of bad situation and the ugly disagreements that could result. Unless "net income" and the expenditures which deduct from it are clearly defined in a contract (a signed one), and the expenditures are limited, reasonable, and make it impossible for you to get royally screwed in the above fashion.

If you're worried about being overpaid (ha, ha) then you can of course vary the amount of the percentage.

Having said all that, Morgan is correct. Few decent artists will work for a percentage unless they're really sure that the game will get released and do extremely well, and for good reason.

If you want your income to scale up if the games does well, you might consider a combination of a decent lump sum + royalties.

[Leon]

No it isn't - it's not fair on you. Net income is gross income minus expenditures, which sounds obvious until you realise that there's no hard-and-fast rule on what "expenditures" actually means.

What if he gets cheeky (the evil kind of cheeky) and decides that "expenditures" includes a wage for himself?

I'll second this. There's actually a term for this in Hollywood(That I'm forgetting the name of). They basically shuffle the money around until there "technically" was no profit so they can get out of paying others.

I wish I could remember the actual name for it, besides "cheats".

[JGOware]

This is great. There is alot of good coders out there who have to stick to programmer, clip art, etc, for their graphics due to the high cost of up front media. Having an open mind to work with different indies and their needs is awesome. I would ofcourse recommend the indie to at least have a real website, a track record of projects to verify, etc.

If there is no money up front, a 50/50 split seems fair to me.

[Cevo70]

I pay my artists up front, and to be honest I am not sure I would feel comfortable doing it any other way. It might be a recipe for disaster...think about month 14 of work and you still don't have a dollar.

I'd be wondering and waiting for the email that says, "sorry but I have to bail."

For your sake, I would not do this unless you had a REALLY good relationship with your partner, and they have a fantastic track record. In that case, I don't think you're crazy asking for 30-40% depending on the size of the full team.

[aiursrage2k]

Why not get paid part of the money upfront, part of it when you finish (so you have incentive to finish it), then you can also get some of the money from sales so the better you make the art the more money it should make, and if things fall at least you have something for your troubles.

[RinkuHero]

I did this with my artists (and musicians, and writer). It works best if you're friends with a person. In my case, the percents were: 60-10-10-10-10. I did most of the work: programming, direction, marketing, and all that. The other four created most of the dialogue text, the music, and most of the graphics.

[realtime44]

The only thing that I would add is that make sure you get something in writing. There are times when getting what you deserve can be difficult if there is no contract.

[AlexWeldon]

I've just recently entered into a collaborative relationship with a programmer here on the forums. We haven't yet talked about how much we want to reveal about our project, so I won't say who I'm working with or what we're making, but I'm very optimistic about it.

Here is my advice on the subject:

I would not make it an open offer. You'll get a lot of responses from people who are not very serious, trustworthy or professional. Rather, make a list of the people on this forum (or other similar sites) who you see as like-minded, and who seem experienced enough to be reliable, but aren't already so successful on their own that they'd have no reason to want to team up. Contact them privately and see who might be interested in collaboration.

The simplest (and possibly best) agreement is to divide both the work and the money 50/50. As the artist, you can work on things like the website, ads, level design, cut scenes and so on etc. once the bulk of the in-game artwork is done. There's always more polish you can add. Likewise, if it's a game with higher art requirements than the programming needed for the basic gameplay (e.g. an adventure game), the programmer can always keep polishing the interface, adding particle effects, improving the controls, and so on...

If your respective lives are such that you can't both commit the same amount of time, then you might instead agree to track the hours spent and split the revenue that way. This is another reason that you want to find someone you know and trust.

Make sure that you find an idea you're both equally excited about, and can both contribute to in terms of game design. Talk about games you like and find some common ground. Better to approach someone and say "are you interested in collaborating on something? If so, let's shoot some ideas around," than to present them with a design doc or mockup and say "would you like to help me make this game?" It's much nicer to work with someone than for them, so the best thing is if you both feel like it's "your" project.

[Roman Budzowski]

If you are good artist and are able to finish what you agree to do then I am always looking for artist. Feel free to email/pm me if interested. I do have a game half ready with 70% of art already done.

cheers
Roman