Replenish powerups when you die

[GolfHacker]

Okay, I've got a little design dilemma here. In my upcoming Rick Rocket game (2D space shooter), you can collect powerups like weapon and shield/armor upgrades as you go along. Subsequently, each successive level gets harder and harder to compensate. The weapon powerups add a new weapon to your arsenal (an extra cannon, ability to launch seeker missiles, etc), and the ammo is unlimited. There is no ammo supply or gauges to keep track of. I chose this route to keep the game simple for kids.

The design problem I am having is what happens when the player dies? If the player loses the powerups when they die and restart the level, the level may be much too difficult with the default weapon and settings. If I let the player keep all of the collected powerups, then there really isn't any need to keep giving them powerups because once they get one, they never lose it or run out of ammo. So I am not quite sure what to do.

I suppose I could give them a free powerup or two at the start of the level, if they are starting it with no powerups at all. Or they could go back and replay some of the easier levels to rebuild their powerup arsenal (which seems like a lame non-solution to me).

Anyone have any suggestions as to how I might solve this?

[320x240]

This is an old problem in shmups. The Gradius series in particular is infamous for how the player is left weak and defenseless after loosing a life, since you get most of your firepower from the options you earn and they are lost when you die. The way it was solved in Gradius V was that after you die, you get a chance to collect them back immediately. I haven't actually played the game myself, so I can't comment on the details. I imagine they float in space for a while before disappearing for good. Another way would be to let them float slowly away and the player have to hunt them down, creating a risk/reward situation.

Giving the player a few well chosen power-up's at key points, like you suggest, is another method that is used. It's a really tricky one to balance correctly though, since you might end up making the game to easy. The player will exploit any mechanic you give them. This method has always felt like a last resort measure from the developers to me. Like they realised they hadn't got the balance correct in the first place and had to do something to at least save the game somewhat.

The first method is more based on skill and will form an organic part of the game. The downside is of course that inexperienced players will still end up with inadequate firepower.

[Grey Alien]

Do they have to restart the level? Perhaps when they die they just loose a couple of powerups and continue from the same place?

[Ratboy]

I seem to remember games where when you die, your powerups all drift away from the spot you died in, and when your new life starts, you have a moment to frantically hoover 'em all back up. Usually, you can get most of them if they're bunched up favorably...

[GolfHacker]

I seem to remember games where when you die, your powerups all drift away from the spot you died in, and when your new life starts, you have a moment to frantically hoover 'em all back up. Usually, you can get most of them if they're bunched up favorably...

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that. That's probably the same mechanic that 320x240 alluded to. That's not a bad idea. The powerups already fizzle away after 30 seconds if the player doesn't pick them up. I could dump a pile of them at the player's last location. The player can then race for that spot to regain most of their lost weapons/armor.

@Grey Alien: I looked at that possibility early on, but the problem was that when you die you're usually surrounded by bad guys or going nose-to-nose with a tough ship. Restarting or continuing from that spot puts the player right back in harm's way, usually with little or no chance to react or escape. I chose instead to restart the level and give the player a few tips on how they might approach the level differently.

[jefferytitan]

Hmm, yeah it is pretty common for your powerups to float around after you die. Best to do in a fashion where you may not get all of them, but will probably get most of them. Or you could view it like a jackpot situation in a casino. The powerups you "lost" are added to the prize pool of potential powerups you could get, so enemies are more likely to drop good powerups until you get back to the number you should have by this stage.

If you're worried about unfairness when you respawn them, you could always give them 3 seconds (or whatever) of invulnerability as many games do. Or you could take them back to just before the last wave of enemies so they have a breather, although it's frustrating to lose progress you've already made, especially against a boss. Or... you could just scroll back a screen or so, so they have physical space with no enemies in, but the enemies remain in the same state that they were before (e.g. dead/injured/etc).

[Moose2000]

Star Monkey did a few things to get around this problem.

It had two levels of 'death' - if you got hit when you were powered up above a certain level, you'd just lose your powerups and have to chase around the screen to get them back. If you got hit when you weren't powered up enough, you'd be returned to the most recent checkpoint to start again with nothing.

Checkpoints were pretty frequent, and chosen to give a reasonable run up back into the action, so you'd have a chance to get powered back up.

Each alien spawnpoint/wave/path had a trigger threshold against your powerup level. The more powerful you were, the more aliens would come after you, so if you'd been knocked back to nothing you'd still have a chance to survive (but with less opportunity to kill stuff, collect stuff, score points).

(The game also wrapped around when you reached the end, lowering the trigger thresholds on everything when it did to throw more aliens at you. It actually takes three complete playthroughs before you've seen (and killed) everything.)

[vjvj]

Yeah, I think spilling them over the playfield and giving the player limited time to pick them up is a great idea.

Another idea would just be to start the player with a certain minimum level of equipment (like how the Quakes give you a machine gun instead of a pistol upon death/respawn).

And for the record, I thought Gradius V was brilliant It's a slight departure, but it's a good departure IMHO.

[vjvj]

@Grey Alien: I looked at that possibility early on, but the problem was that when you die you're usually surrounded by bad guys or going nose-to-nose with a tough ship. Restarting or continuing from that spot puts the player right back in harm's way, usually with little or no chance to react or escape. I chose instead to restart the level and give the player a few tips on how they might approach the level differently.

That's why you restart in the same spot with brief invincibility

[JGOware]

First off, I would never have the player "die" if it's a kid's game. Otherwise I would suggest calulating 50% of their abilities right before they die and give that back to the player when the level starts. Getting that other 50% back should be a big priority for the player when the level restarts.

[AnthemAudio]

Or here's another idea... why make any of the powerups permanent? Why not allow the power up to deplete over time or usage? It's not for every game, but this would allow you to keep throwing powerups at them that would always seem worthy of pursuing. Plus there wouldn't be a difference between a player who just ran out of powerup energy or a player who just died and returned with nothing. Basically takes the stress out of "losing all your powerups" which isn't really needed for a game aimed at kids.

An aside, my 5 year old has no problem with "dying" in games. She understands she needs to "try, try again!" which is exactly what she stammers when she fails. It makes me smile everytime!

-Tony

[Grey Alien]

That's why you restart in the same spot with brief invincibility

My thoughts too...

[GolfHacker]

Yeah I understand, though the player has to use those few seconds of invincibility in order to flee the crowded battle site before he gets crushed. And then he has all of the enemy ships pursuing while he attempts to find a stray ship he can quickly pick off to hopefully get a power-up. I think that is more stressful than just dumping the player's power-ups in a pile at the spot where they died.

[jpoag]

I like the idea of your power-ups dropping, but instead of them dropping in the exact spot the player dies, why not shoot them out in a circle from the spot. As they float away they start to flicker and fade out.

Now the player in invincible, but they have to choose which powerup to go after. This might be too much, but what happens when you can't pick up power-up while you're invincible?


It's a little work, but have you thought about play testing different scenarios?

[GolfHacker]

I like the idea of your power-ups dropping, but instead of them dropping in the exact spot the player dies, why not shoot them out in a circle from the spot. As they float away they start to flicker and fade out.

Well, that's more or less what I am going to do. They're not going to float away, but they won't be right on top of each other. The player certainly won't be able to collect them all in one pass, and by the time the player makes one or two passes, they'll have some enemies to contend with. So they will have to make a quick decision as to which powerups they want to grab first. Good suggestion, though!

Now the player in invincible, but they have to choose which powerup to go after. This might be too much, but what happens when you can't pick up power-up while you're invincible?

It's a little work, but have you thought about play testing different scenarios?

That's not going to be a problem for me - first, the player is allowed to pick up powerups whether they are invincible or not. I already have times when the player is invincible for a second or two, like right after they get hit or run into something. Second, the player for now will just restart the level when they die. They won't be invincible at that point. I may try a few different scenarios at the end, but right now I think this solution will work best for me.

Thanks for the input!

[JGOware]

An aside, my 5 year old has no problem with "dying" in games. She understands she needs to "try, try again!" which is exactly what she stammers when she fails. It makes me smile everytime!

-Tony

Really? I wouldn't let my children that young play a game where there is death. No need to put that thought in a kid at that age.

[GolfHacker]

Well, when it comes to my 2D space shmup, I don't think anyone that young will be playing it - they're not likely to have the reflexes developed enough to do well at it. But even so, young kids since the early 80's have gotten used to having their spaceship in arcade games blowing up. There's no blood, gore, or graphic/gratuitous violence involved, so I don't think there's a problem.

[jefferytitan]

Second, the player for now will just restart the level when they die. They won't be invincible at that point. I may try a few different scenarios at the end, but right now I think this solution will work best for me.

You might want to check out the "Punishment in games" thread. Unless your levels are really short you may be forcing your player to jump through a lot of hoops just to get back to where they died and take another shot at it. Players do learn faster if the cycle of try-die-retry is short. Not to mention get less frustrated. Also if it's the kind of game with end of level bosses, it is common in many games to die at least once in a boss fight.

[vjvj]

You might want to check out the "Punishment in games" thread. Unless your levels are really short you may be forcing your player to jump through a lot of hoops just to get back to where they died and take another shot at it. Players do learn faster if the cycle of try-die-retry is short. Not to mention get less frustrated. Also if it's the kind of game with end of level bosses, it is common in many games to die at least once in a boss fight.

I have to say I agree; I generally dislike restarting a level whenever I die...

[jefferytitan]

Actually I had another interesting thought. What if instead of lives being a finite resource, you can have as many as you like but the cost of failure is losing points? Say if the cost of a life starts out as 1000 points, and gradually increases as you go through the game. The consequence of failure then is not losing powerups etc, but risking falling off the high score chart if you don't make up the points you lost. People who just want to clock the game can slog through, but for people looking for high scores it becomes a totally different proposition. Casual gamers can act the former way, hardcore gamers the latter. And I suppose they actually die if their score goes below zero.

[AnthemAudio]

Really? I wouldn't let my children that young play a game where there is death. No need to put that thought in a kid at that age.

Well she mostly plays God of War 2 and the Hitman series...

Nah, she learned about real tragic death just growing up with animals. She's made the distinction of the family dog dying compared to Mickey not quite making the jump in Castle of Illusion.

Though watching that Seamus Young commentary vid about Prince of Persia's innovative design philosophy, reinforcing the "try try again" mentality with less frustration has me intrigued and I'll definitely be picking up a copy to study...for me that is, my daughter can keep playing Yoshis Island.

Back to powerups being lost or not after "failing", the powerups floating around after your ship explodes is a classic. I remember some games actually throwing in more powerups out there after losing a ship, freezing the game, slap a countdown timer and ask for more quarters. It was both a way to let you continue without missing a beat and possibly even upgrade. Though, maybe because there was money involved we would actually feel cheated if it didn't offer them back in some way.

-Tony

[GolfHacker]

You might want to check out the "Punishment in games" thread. Unless your levels are really short you may be forcing your player to jump through a lot of hoops just to get back to where they died and take another shot at it. Players do learn faster if the cycle of try-die-retry is short. Not to mention get less frustrated. Also if it's the kind of game with end of level bosses, it is common in many games to die at least once in a boss fight.

Actually, most of the levels are fairly short. The player has unlimited lives, and therefore unlimited do-overs. And once the player unlocks a level, it remains unlocked so they don't lose their progress up to that level. The player can always go back and replay a level. So dying doesn't cost you much progress.

Have you or vjvj tried the Rick Rocket build I posted a couple weeks ago? If not, then this is probably just an academic discussion. If you did play the build and still have issues with the design, then I would like to know the specific design issues that you see so I can address those directly. Thanks!

[Acord]

Honestly, my favorite approach to the issue was in the classic Compile games(Zanac and Blazing Lazers are still personal faves).

The difficulty of the game ramped up and down with the power of the player AND the current level, so you never felt weak and defenseless, and it never felt like the game was too difficult to win nor too easy to bother with.

Another cool feature was that the patterns and types of enemies would variate depending on which weapon you were using, so every weapon was great. The enemies spawned would play into the strength of the weapons, and occasionally prey on the weaknesses.

Regardless, powerups were thrown at the player pretty frequently. That along with the variable difficulty ensured that this issue was sidestepped.

[thegamedesigner]

The hardline example from a design perspective would be:

- Restarting the level, losing all the power-ups gained on that level. All power-ups are replaced in the level, so each time you die and re-play the level, it is exactly the same. This is easiest from a balance view, as it has no increasingly slippery slope.

If the game is for kids, I would not use a penalty. They are already going to be trying several times to get past each problem. Getting past is the reward. Restarting is more then enough penalty. The last thing you need is each time they die, they get a little worse.

[vjvj]

Have you or vjvj tried the Rick Rocket build I posted a couple weeks ago? If not, then this is probably just an academic discussion. If you did play the build and still have issues with the design, then I would like to know the specific design issues that you see so I can address those directly. Thanks!

Shit, I missed this... I'll check it out. But if you say the levels are really short, then I agree that restarting the level isn't so bad (since each level is essentially just a checkpoint, from a time-invested point of view).

[AlexWeldon]

One of my personal favourite sh'mup design concepts is as follows, although I can't remember which game(s) I've seen it in:

The player only has one life (though depending on the game and the target audience, you might not force them to start the whole game over again after dying). Power-ups stack - e.g. if you pick up laser power-ups, your lasers get more and more powerful, and change colour... if you pick up missile power-ups, you shoot more and more missiles at once, etc. Getting hit does not kill you, it simply removes one or more of your power-ups - getting hit when you have no power-ups at all is how you finally die.

It's really quite an elegant system - getting hit brings you closer to death, but also makes you weaker... it's easy enough to recover from a couple of hits, but the end comes swiftly if you start falling too far behind the difficulty curve, as your ship gets progressively more and more underpowered. Likewise, there's a strong incentive to play perfectly in early, easier levels, as you'll get through to the harder levels with a better ship.

Of course, mechanics like this that contain feedback loops are tricky to balance - if the first few levels are too easy/hard, the resulting condition of the player's ship will make the rest of the game easier/harder as well... but you could adjust the difficulty of levels somewhat based on how many power-ups the player started with.

[320x240]

One of my personal favourite sh'mup design concepts is as follows, although I can't remember which game(s) I've seen it in:

Lot's of shmups have this, like Blazing Lazers that was mentioned earlier, except you have more than one life in most of them. I guess having only one life could be a better way of implementing this, especially in a more casual shmup, since you avoid the whole bit where the player respawns and are drastically underpowered. A gradual striping away of a players weapon when hit ties in better with the idea of a lifebar too.