Reply With QuoteOK, apparently that's just poorly worded.
You can sell games less than 50MB for 200, 400 or 800 points. For games between 50MB and 150MB, you can sell for 400 or 800.
OK, here's a detailed FAQ:
http://creators.xna.com/en-us/XboxLIVECommunityGames
Some interesting points:
So basically, if your game is successful, MS will make it a featured game, and you'll only get 40%.Creators will receive 70 percent of the total revenue from their game sales as a baseline. We will additionally invest in and feature a handful of games at a time by promoting them both on the console as well as on Xbox.com. During this promotional period where games are showcased along with a handful of others, we will deduct 10-30 percent promotional fee based on performance in exchange for driving increased exposure and sales
This sounds ridiculous to me. You can't sell 50MB games for more than 200pts??Creators can chose to sell their 50 MB games for 200 Microsoft Points, or sell their larger 150 MB games for either 400 or 800 Microsoft Points.
OK, apparently that's just poorly worded.
You can sell games less than 50MB for 200, 400 or 800 points. For games between 50MB and 150MB, you can sell for 400 or 800.
Which is still not bad. Your revenue increase from being a featured game would still make that advantageous. In other words, you're paying for advertising and marketing in a prime spot - and it's still fair.Originally Posted by simonh
We had started development with XNA before this all showed up because my team is well versed in C#. I knew that eventually there would be a path for xna to be sold via xbox and I know there will eventually be a better distro method for xna for the PC. MS is pouring money into XNA and it shows. There are so many nice things about XNA that you don't have to build from the ground up that it's just a no brainer for me and my guys. We are developing concurrently for both XBox and pc so when It's all said and done we will be able to release on both platforms and see what comes of it.
I realize the iffyness of the Xbox but I'm not putting all my eggs in the xbox basket so all is well. The only real concern I have is that XNA requires a shader model 2 graphics card which reduces my PC consumer base.
It's an extra 10 to 30% based on performance. I read that as they'll pick titles to promote, as your sales go shooting up they'll take more of a cut but you'll still be benefit from the extra coverage.
Don't underestimate what having a big button front and center will do for your sales.
I'm lmao here. In another thread, this was MS gougeing developers.Which is still not bad. Your revenue increase from being a featured game would still make that advantageous. In other words, you're paying for advertising and marketing in a prime spot - and it's still fair.
It seems people talk down the hard options and talk up the easy stuff. I know I'm not going to win any arguments extolling XBLA over XNA because XNA is easy. And it's bound to make lots of money too, as long as you have that special title.....
I loved the bit about 90% of stuff coming out being shite. My prediction is actually 99.99999% and that one good game will get drowned and should've been put on XBLA. But this is all speculation - let's look again in a year.
My prediction is with XBLA you can make tens to hundreds of thousands, and with XNA you will make tens to hundreds.
He said it wrong, Microsoft was taking 40%.
XBLA is not a "hard option" at this point. It's a near impossible point for a small team. They're trying to shift indie devs over to XNA and get the companies to work on Live Arcade.
You (or someone else) severely underplayed costs and everything else earlier. It's at least $20,000 to get your game to production on XBLA counting dev kit and certification issues (this is saying your game is completely free). That may have gone down to $15,000 now since 1 component is supposedly cheaper. There are other issues that NDAs won't allow to be discussed in detail that mean that small teams with no prior backing get their games released late and get no attention and the big companies will. Not to mention that the XBLA team will be looking at XNA titles for expansion/XBLA production.
If you're one or two guys working on a game with no budget, you can simultaneously work on a XBLA/XNA title at the same time. If you can't get on XBLA, or can't at a decent time, XNA might be a viable option for you.
It will be 95% total crap, 5% mediocre, 5% good. That's why you want to be a launch title.
If you aim to be the best game on XBLA, but make it in XNA, you have multiple directions to go in with it. Microsoft just provided another viable direction, which was NEEDED, because they didn't have all the resources (or space) to handle tons of indie game makers being shuttled through XBLA.
I just typed out another long rejoinder about the opinions of someone who thinks he knows my costs better than I do, but I realised it would do no good. Especially when you factor in your contradition and the maths on show.You (or someone else) severely underplayed costs and everything else earlier. It's at least $20,000 to get your game to production on XBLA counting dev kit and certification issues (this is saying your game is completely free).
Good luck with the XNA dev, guys. It will be fun I'm sure - it's a nice console.
One last point I forgot to mention before dissappearing:
Hmmm. This sounds familiar. Start at 70% ? Nice. Drop to 40% and everyone moan about gougeing ? Nah, that won't happen. Not at all.The game is listed on Xbox LIVE Marketplace, and you’ll get a check every quarter, for up to 70% of the game’s total revenue in your own currency.
I've been in talks with the XBLA team for over two years, am under NDA, and know exactly how much everything costs, from dev kit to final certification. I started talks with Ross Erickson, back when he was there, and continued since with a new contact.
So it's not about knowing "your costs better than you do;" I know the costs of the production/submittal process.
There has been talks of certain prices dropping since I last asked (thus the contradiction), but that was since your game was developed.
Last edited by arrogancy; 07-23-2008 at 02:29 PM.
And instead of talking about it, I've been doing it. Our publishing contract trumps your NDA big time.
And last time I looked our costs were still nil if you ignore wages and overhead. There are always ways if you want to do things properly and have a good reputation.
They'll still be nil tomorrow when I read your next reply to the contrary.
Honestly bud, I don't know what's going on here. You've been told some stuff. I've actually done it and proven your "facts" to be false. How come you're still trying to argue with me and telling me how much I spent ?
Edit: Of course the deal has changed recently. Along with the drop in royalty rate, all other barriers to entry have been lowered.
And quite apart from all that, the cost of one devkit (cert is still free) to a game development business is bugger all anyway. If you're not earning enough to be able to afford one, putting a game on XNA isn't gonna change much for you.
But I do think XNA is a good thing. If nothing else it'll keep the crap away from XBLA.
The point is that I am speaking directly from the figures that were quoted to me as an average small group making a game. Who knows what/why/where your deal worked the way it did? Microsoft works with different people differently.
That's the entire point; what happened for you won't necessarily happen with everyone else. Tom from The Behemoth quoted costs that were completely different than yours. I'm averaging out what my quotes were with other people who also went through the same/similar processes. How much you spent is not necessarily the same as how much another person will spend, and you or I aren't free to discuss the details of why that is openly.
In other words, you're making an appeal to authority, and have been on this subject for a while now, but you aren't the only authority. I'm under NDA and know two XBLA developers personally, and have been talking to 5+ online for years. I can bring them in and we can all wave privates around and see where it gets us. That shouldn't be necessary.
As-is, however, Microsoft is currently trying to phase indie developers over to XNA, and it's becoming harder and harder to get production because of that without having a preexisting relationship. Combine that with having to pay 10-20k out of pocket (without any sharing deals being made) and it gets tougher. Which is the point that was being made. At this point in time, it's more feasible, on average, to focus your game on XNA if you're a one or two guy developer - than to shoot straight for XBLA, especially since an XNA game can still get on XBLA.
And honestly, most of the crap on XBLA doesn't come from the types that will be making games on Community Games.
Look, this is also my point. Random generic figures are meaningless. It will cost you less to write one sort of game than another, and the sundry costs of either are very low. And if they're telling you that cert testing costs money for example, that's optional for starters. As was buying the first devkit in our case.The point is that I am speaking directly from the figures that were quoted to me as an average small group making a game. Who knows what/why/where your deal worked the way it did? Microsoft works with different people differently.
I've never said that XBLA is easy and I'm quite prepared to concede that it's getting harder. I honestly wouldn't recommend this route for small devs now, based on the same stories you've been hearing. But it's still the only way for non-AAA developers to make money on Xbox.
XNA is not the alternative, it really isn't. It will be a quagmire of shite and nobody will make any money. The only reason XBLA devs make anything now is the small market and the focus XBLA has from MS, which is presumably going to wane a little now.
I'm sorry for quibbling with you. You clearly have been doing good research but I kinda saw red when a random guy started telling me my own figures were wrong!
If you guys want to get a quick and dirty game done for a console, WiiWare looks like the most viable option to me. Especially if XNA games have to jump through all the guide integration hoops and stuff that the rest do.
This is the interesting bit right there. What makes XBLA attractive is that it's a quite exclusive distribution channel. There's no similar filtering of XNA titles, so what is it that appeals to people about it? cliffski made a couple of good points about low piracy rate and known hardware... and I can see how they apply to XBLA titles... but surely they'd be cancelled out on XNA where the crap drowns out the good stuff?
I think a lot of people are applying a fair bit of wishful thinking to this. I just hope you don't go investing too much in it hoping to see a big return on your investment. Better treat it as a fun way of sharing your games. I think that's sort of how it's meant...
"The Strangler" - My recent point-and-click adventure
www.mattiasgustavsson.com - My blog on games and game development
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Your kidding right? Last time I looked, wiiware had as much red-tape to entry as an indie trying to sell games via a console retail styleIf you guys want to get a quick and dirty game done for a console, WiiWare looks like the most viable option to me.Thats unless they updated it to actually allow developers a chance of putting their game on the system...
Leroy 'The 1nteger' Frederick: Eternal Syndrome
Games ES Entertainment
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There will be filtering though. The frontpage will have featured games, a list of recent releases and a list of games by rating. You also get a link to a web url for your game on xbox.com. There the user can click a button in their browser and it will queue the game for download next time the console is booted up.
What's the difference between XNA and just your standard PC stuff? Surely the PC is as crowded and filled with crap, if not more so?
That's what I'm thinking. People are comparing this service to portals/download sites, when they should be comparing it to platforms. There's millions of crappy PC games out there that players have to weed through to find the gems. So how do you stand out? Good game + marketing. Same applies to XNA Community Games.
The question "Why would anyone want to develop for XNA?" is sort of like asking "Why would anyone want to develop for Mac?"
To make more money of course!
-Jeremy Eden
JForceGames.com
Which is a good goal, for sure. And to do so, you need to look at "return on investment", right? (investment as in both time and money)
It's generally a good idea to have a Mac version of your game, as it's proven that those sell quite well. A linux version? Not that many people seem to bother. An XBLA version? Yeah, if you can pull it off, it's well worth the investment.
Does putting your game on a portal help sales? For most games, it seems to do so. Submitting your game demo to free download sites (like download.com), does that help sales? Not so much anymore, and I have the impression that few people bother these days.
So the question is really if XNA games are likely to sell well enough to justify the extra time you'll invest porting it (and I guess it's not always just a straight port either, you'll have to adapt the game to the xbox controller too).
The point that some of us have been trying to make, is that it's highly unlikely that XNA will give sufficient return on investment. And if it doesn't, then what's the point of doing it?
Sometimes it seems like people go crazy over just the opportunity to develop for a console, as if it would somehow just be magically better
I think that's what I'm hearing too.Sometimes it seems like people go crazy over just the opportunity to develop for a console, as if it would somehow just be magically better
1) Much smaller market than pc.
2) Console dev is bloody hard - it's all done on the cheap with a "the software boys can fix it" attitude. And I mean all of them, past and present.
3) Related to 2), if you're not a hardware optimisation god, you won't get much on the screen at all. Far less than a min spec PC unless you know what you're doing. A single large (and often) random array access will kill your game ffs. I know of at least one successful indie team who are struggling to get their game to run at all as it wasn't designed from the ground up with console limitations in place.
4) Do you still have to recode it in C# ? Surely not.
5) If you need to add guide integration and the other TRC stuff related to working nicely on the box, add 3 months right there, even if you're fast and experienced.
6) If you don't know what "load-hit-store" and "l2 miss" means, stick to pacman. And as for the small group that runs their game in java on a python emulator through a perl script #4x0r under linux..... lol
Xbox Live Arcade could also be deemed as being 'a quagmire of shite'. There are some real stinkers on there. And there are also lots of games making next-to-no money.
This is an alternative to Live Arcade, and one that I think should be applauded. At last, after 20+ years, consoles have FINALLY been opened up to anyone and everyone. This is something that people have always wanted.
To be honest, I'm startled that anyone could be anything other than positive about the whole thing.
You're obviously quite ignorant on the whole Xbox Live Community Games initiative. Might be a good idea to do a bit of research first.I think that's what I'm hearing too.
1) Much smaller market than pc.
2) Console dev is bloody hard - it's all done on the cheap with a "the software boys can fix it" attitude. And I mean all of them, past and present.
3) Related to 2), if you're not a hardware optimisation god, you won't get much on the screen at all. Far less than a min spec PC unless you know what you're doing. A single large (and often) random array access will kill your game ffs. I know of at least one successful indie team who are struggling to get their game to run at all as it wasn't designed from the ground up with console limitations in place.
4) Do you still have to recode it in C# ? Surely not.
5) If you need to add guide integration and the other TRC stuff related to working nicely on the box, add 3 months right there, even if you're fast and experienced.
6) If you don't know what "load-hit-store" and "l2 miss" means, stick to pacman. And as for the small group that runs their game in java on a python emulator through a perl script #4x0r under linux..... lol
Here's a link to get you started:
http://creators.xna.com
Last edited by PaulCunningham; 07-25-2008 at 04:09 AM. Reason: Added link
Paul Cunningham
Pumpkin Games
I'm going to back up what was said here earlier. Nintendo isn't really letting anyone who they don't have a prior relationship with develop for Wiiware. The only exceptions are if your game has already sold a billion copies online.
Totally ignorant, guilty as charged. As I said earlier, good luck guys.You're obviously quite ignorant on the whole Xbox Live Community Games initiative. Might be a good idea to do a bit of research first.
I'm clearly wrong about all of this and there's tons of easy money to be made. Sorry for trying to disuade you all - I was just trying to reserve this acre of opportunity all for myself....
Ah, don't be like that
Just pointing out that the answers to a lot of your questions could be found quite easily on the main site and if you were going to argue a case it may be wise to be better informed.
I think there will be a lot of disappointed folks out there when they fire up Game Studio for the first time, can't find the 'Create Halo type game template' and think "hmmm, now what?" And an equal number who don't make a cent from it. Sure, you'll get a Dishwasher occasionally but they'll be few and far between.
Personally, I think the programme is great news - but then I shall be treating it as it was initially concieved - as a way for HOBBYIST developers to release their games on a cool, powerful, fixed hardware platform with an integrated distribution channel.
Paul Cunningham
Pumpkin Games
Usually I'd agree, but in this case I don't need to know the details to know that no money is getting made here. But as usual my post is along the lines of "there's no quick fixes, do good work for a long time instead" so of course nobody seems interested.Just pointing out that the answers to a lot of your questions could be found quite easily on the main site and if you were going to argue a case it may be wise to be better informed.
Every n00b in the world is gonna jump on this. If you can't make a stand-out game for PC, there is no way you can do so on XNA, and the development will be a lot harder and will be extremely platform specific.
Besides, of my list of stuff, the only points that really matter are the ones I do know the answers to. Developing for a console is not a walk in the park, even with all the libs and widgets you'll get. A lot of people, pro's included, struggle to get at the performance on offer because nothing is straighforward. And yes, I am thinking about 2D minimum requirements.
Schizoid by Torpex Games is a XBLA game developed using XNA Game Studio. Lead coder Jamie Fristrom's blog (http://www.gamedevblog.com) highlights the difficulties they found using XNA GS.
Paul Cunningham
Pumpkin Games
Not everyone have always wanted this, no. I think that the one thing that has set the consoles apart from computers, is that as they've always been a closed platform, there's been a basic level of quality control applied to the games. That doesn't mean that every game will be excellent, or appeal to everyone, but it does ensure things like basic functionality and conformance to TCRs, stuff like that.
I don't think it's all good to blur the line between consoles and PCs like this, but this is Microsoft, and I can see why they would want to do just that.
That's how it was meant to be used, and I think some people can have a lot of fun with it.
I think that's part of my problem tbh. I don't know what I'm talking about as I don't run a blog
But I've said it twice already. Good luck guys.....
@Mattias Gustavsson - arggh, you quoted my typo
Not everyone has always wanted this, no. The game's buying public probably not, but I think a lot of the 80s bedroom coders bought up on writing code for their Commodore 64s, etc have wanted some kind of fixed, open gaming platform for a long time. PCs are great but there's just so many combinations of software and hardware to contend with.
Paul Cunningham
Pumpkin Games
Well that's my background, but I've never wanted anything "open". Whilst my mortgage is depending on it, I want it as closed as possible so I can pay my way.but I think a lot of the 80s bedroom coders bought up on writing code for their Commodore 64s, etc have wanted some kind of fixed, open gaming platform for a long time
Lets tackle this from the other side. Whilst freelancing in the past, I've had experience of all of these platforms that are within reach of indies:
* J2ME mobile - open, no money to be made
* PC D/L - open, little money to be made
* PocketPC/Palm - open, no money to be made
* BREW - closed, massive money made
* XBLA - closed, large money being made
* IPhone - open, little money to be made
* DS - closed, good contracts to be had
Should I go on, or can you spot the pattern yet ?
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