Xbox Live Community Games

[simonh]

What are people's thoughts on this? Anyone planning to develop games for it?

They launched the new Creators Club website a few days ago, since when people have been submitting their games to be put on the service.

You can see a list of games here:

http://catalog.xna.com/gamescatalog.aspx

Unfortunately they haven't released any details on how you can monetize your games yet, but I would imagine if you are able to charge points for your games, they will set a ceiling that is roughly equivalent to the lowest points charged for Live Arcade games - that is, I would imagine most games will sell for 100-400pts ($1.25-$5).

Forgetting the money side of things though, I think it's a great opportunity to develop games just for fun for a platform where the gamers will be played by gamers with a joypad on a TV, not middle-aged women with a mouse on a monitor. And the fact you can develop multiplayer games is also another huge plus - XBox's Live service is a million times better than anything else out there, and means you'll be able to play games with your 360-owning mates very easily indeed.

[Applewood]

I must admit I've never really gotten this whole thing tbh.

There is a vehicle for getting indie games onto 360 already - it's called XBox Live Arcade. If a game ain't good enough to go on that, what's the point of putting it into the "also ran" shit pile amongst 90 million other fanboy "games" ?

[simonh]

That's quite a narrow-minded view. Live Arcade is seriously difficult to get your games onto - they only release, what, one or two games a week, if that? And how many of those games are usually indie games, and how many are heavily-funded games from big publishers? It's overwhelmingly the latter.

Also, it's not a black-and-white case of 'good games go on Live Arcade, the shit goes on Community Games'. Microsoft have said they'll only green-light games for Live Arcade which they think will appeal to a large number of people - things like traditional shooters etc.

For people who have games in a particluar niche, like a rowing simulator or a scaffolding construction game, then Community Games is perfect.

[Applewood]

I'm not narrow minded at all. Give me a reason why someone would want to develop for this platform and I'll take it into consideration.

Our game was self-funded, as were a lot of the others on there. There is some publisher involvement, and it isn't a cheap proposition, but my idea of "indie" is a little different to most others. To me it means development without publishers, not development with no budget.

For people who have games in a particluar niche, like a rowing simulator or a scaffolding construction game, then Community Games is perfect.

You're probably right here, but can you really define "perfect"? Perfect to me would involve making money out of it and I don't see how feasible that is given my admitted lack of knowledge in this area. A rowing simulator isn't selling at all, and a bridge construction game would probably suck ass given the control method available.

If you want to make money out of console games, you should really write console games. And that means you should get them on XBLA where they belong. If MS don't want it, it's because it's not going to sell. There is a hint there to the wise.

Of course, this is a great platform for hobbiests to play around with, but that's all it is to me. It's not a platform for making money independently, and it's not even a good way to learn X360 programming.

[simonh]

I'm sorry, dismissing the service before it has even started is narrow-minded in my book.

Perhaps your point of view is slightly different to most as you are not a solo developer, but 99% of people here are solo developers and such Live Arcade is out of the question.

This is the console platform for 'the rest of us'. Is it possible to make money? Who knows. But I think it's best to keep an open mind.

[Applewood]

I've been accused of that a lot lately, but please go ahead and prove me wrong. All I can do is refer you to my previous post.

Maybe I am wrong, wouldn't be the first time. This could well turn out to be a solution where people can knock out crap and make lots of easy money. Hell, enough people seem to be looking for that option so there's certainly a demand.

Our XBLA game was a (practically) single handed development btw. Apart from the supplied AI code that didn't cost us anything up front. We just put a lot of hard work in and after a very long time, a game popped out.

[J Fizzle]

I'm not narrow minded at all. Give me a reason why someone would want to develop for this platform and I'll take it into consideration.

Ummmm, because you don't have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars? And it's an open platform?

There is a vehicle for getting indie games onto 360 already - it's called XBox Live Arcade. If a game ain't good enough to go on that, what's the point of putting it into the "also ran" shit pile amongst 90 million other fanboy "games" ?

So just because the suits at MS think your game won't sell, you believe them and forget about it? How many times have the experts been wrong? Perhaps you should check out the links on this TIGsource article, especially metanet's postmortem interview.

Seeing as there is no viable way to market your game for such a system,

What do you mean? You would market it the same as you would a PC game. Instead of "Download the game on our website!" you say "Download the game on your Xbox!" Of course this is ignoring the fact that you'll be able to sell your XNA games on PC.

And btw, I think XNA is going to be huge. It will be the greatest thing to happen to the game industry since J Force.

[Applewood]

Ummmm, because you don't have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars? And it's an open platform?

I'd suggest you stop reading bulletin board BS and look into it properly. Our game cost nowhere near the figures I hear being touted around and nor did most of the others at a guess. I'd say in the region of 30 grand in wages for ours. That's about a years worth of man hours if you look at it that way. If you can shrink that down a lot for any platform, be my guest. My point being, its little more expensive than doing PC dev, except for the dev kit which you can borrow if you make a good case. Either way, 8 grand is small beer for a project that will easily net you 6 figures.

So just because the suits at MS think your game won't sell, you believe them and forget about it?

Pretty much. They're in a much better place to know than I am and I never turn down free advice. Most of the guys I've met don't wear suits either. How many guys in suits have you seen?

I'm all for proving "da man" wrong of course, but what's the alternative? What, you think you're making money from the creators club ? Please - go right ahead. Honestly. Please get on with it and report back your findings.

What do you mean? You would market it the same as you would a PC game.

Yeah, I've seen the average indie marketing campaign. Doesn't quite compare with what MS do for you for free. But then you doubtless have no idea what MS do for you because you've clearly not done any actual, real, investigation of any of this.

It's funny how people talking out of their arse moan at me for giving honest opinion based on experience and hard lessons learned. Oh well, getting used to it. Try this instead: "Yep, this thing will make you a ton of money and it'll be dead easy and can't fail."...

[Mattias Gustavsson]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people *want* to believe in these kind of things, and that makes them blind to the problems. I think it's obvious that the Creators Club is not a viable commercial channel, but rather a hobbyists playground.

Also, what's with this obsession with developing for consoles as if they where open platforms? Consoles are not open platforms, and that plays a main part in their success. Not everyone can publish a game on the XBox, and not everyone can publish a game on XBLA.

There's a group of people (or 'suits' if you like) who makes a selection, and that means the good stuff is not drowned out by rubbish. Sure, the people who make the selection might not include some games you think they should have, but that's besides the point. What I'm saying is, the fact that the titles are screened and chosen is the most important factor of the popularity of consoles.

So if consoles are open for everyone to develop for, then why would you want to develop for them? The competitive edge would be gone, and things like XBLA would be like download.com...

There's already two great, viable platforms open to anyone to develop for: Windows and OSX (no, I don't count linux :P), so why not focus on them? Or, alternatively, try and get your title approved by the 'suits', so you get into the exclusive console club and make loads of money (and if it wasn't an exclusive club, it would mean you wouldn't make the loads of money anyway).

[J Fizzle]

I'd suggest you stop reading bulletin board BS and look into it properly. Our game cost nowhere near the figures I hear being touted around and nor did most of the others at a guess. I'd say in the region of 30 grand in wages for ours. That's about a years worth of man hours if you look at it that way. If you can shrink that down a lot for any platform, be my guest. My point being, its little more expensive than doing PC dev, except for the dev kit which you can borrow if you make a good case. Either way, 8 grand is small beer for a project that will easily net you 6 figures.

Well why did Metanet estimate a minimum of $125,000? They're not talking out of their asses. And you're saying your only cost was labor and the devkit? What about testing, certification, localization and all that?

Most of the guys I've met don't wear suits either.

Just an expression.

Yeah, I've seen the average indie marketing campaign. Doesn't quite compare with what MS do for you for free. But then you doubtless have no idea what MS do for you because you've clearly not done any actual, real, investigation of any of this.

I am not aware of any marketing MS does for XBLA games, other than promotion on their own website and 360 dashboard. What else do they do?

It's funny how people talking out of their arse moan at me for giving honest opinion based on experience and hard lessons learned.

Well that's cuz you're so freakin pessimistic. Needa stop sippin that haterade homie. I mean, you've pretty much completely written off XNA as a viable platform before it's even come out. How is that an opinion based on experience?

[Mattias Gustavsson]

Well that's cuz you're so freakin pessimistic.

Others would say realistic. There's nothing like spending a few years in the industry to shatter a positive outlook on these type of things.

[Applewood]

Well why did Metanet estimate a minimum of $125,000? They're not talking out of their asses. And you're saying your only cost was labor and the devkit? What about testing, certification, localization and all that?

Probably because they spent 125K ? I dunno, I don't work there. Note that I'm talking in UK money so read 60K for our expenses.

Testing? We did our own, but in hindsight this was a mistake. You don't have to pay the big boys to do it though if you're on a budget. VMC would be the ideal choice if you're not.

Localisation? They threw that in for free because we said we only wanted to release in Japan and UK/USA. We did our own Japanese in return for a couple of percent off the top.

Certification? Don't fail more than twice and it won't cost a cent. And possibly not even then.

Just an expression.

Yes, but an inappropriate one. The producers and evaluators I've met with are just like us - they care about games. Sure, there are people above them who care about money, but I'm glad about that too - it's something pretty important to me as well!

I am not aware of any marketing MS does for XBLA games, other than promotion on their own website and 360 dashboard. What else do they do?

That's confidential and probably varies a lot too. But let's just say I'm very happy with what they've promised to make happen in our case.

Well that's cuz you're so freakin pessimistic. Needa stop sippin that haterade homie. I mean, you've pretty much completely written off XNA as a viable platform before it's even come out. How is that an opinion based on experience?

XNA? What's that? The experience part is basically seeing lots of "the next big things" being announced and none of them actually being "the next big thing". Dunno, maybe this one will be. Why gamble though, come back later when it actually *is* the next big thing!

I'm sorry you see me as being pesimistic. I would describe it as pragmatic myself but I can see why I come across this way. Here's some news: Most things fail. New stuff usually fails. If you're on a budget, play it safe and ignore all the gimicks and do it safely and properly.

[J Fizzle]

Here's some news: Most things fail. New stuff usually fails. If you're on a budget, play it safe and ignore all the gimicks and do it safely and properly.

Bah. That sounds like old person talk. Wait a minute....you are an old person, aren't you? Oh yeah, all of you are old persons! Oh god! I'm surrounded by 30-40 year olds! I'm outa here! *runs away*

[Mattias Gustavsson]

I'm outa here! *runs away*

About time

[Applewood]

Heh, yeah. I figured him for someone who thinks 30+ is old. I think the fact that he resorts to (what he thinks are) insults when he's lost a debate is kinda telling too.

[electronicStar]

Noone seems to notice he is the JFORCE guy

[Mattias Gustavsson]

Oh we do, we are just being polite

[simonh]

MS have released further details:

http://blogs.msdn.com/xna/default.aspx

You can sell your games at 200, 400 or 800pts. 70% royalties. Seems quite generous.

OK, how many are planning to create XNA games now?

[J Fizzle]

J Fizzle wins?

[Applewood]

And, hey, Applewood - you could release your Pool game on there

No need to edit it off again I thought I'd left this thread anyway, lol.

Nah, I'm not spending months porting our game to a non-standard fanboy format so I can make pennies

[electronicStar]

Hey that actually sounds like good news!
that's not what I was expecting from MS "XNA program". I am pleasantly surprised.
Only problem is you can expect a flood of games 90% of which will probably be crap.

Also

Other Premium Creators will check to make sure your game is safe to play

I wonder how realistic this is.

[defanual]

I like Microsoft's effort if nothing else, although I think visibility will become a big problem when the flood begins, making the rewards potentially lower. Another problem is (assuming the community games are separate) it allows ms to keep the true indie/rift-raft separate from their live games created by the big boys/girls, so theoretically much less people will bother to venture or even look in the community section which means it could quickly become like being listed in download.com for free, pretty useless.

But hey, it's far better then wii 'do you have premises/contact us' ware's developer offering, at least last time I checked

[luggage]

Hey that actually sounds like good news!
that's not what I was expecting from MS "XNA program". I am pleasantly surprised.
Only problem is you can expect a flood of games 90% of which will probably be crap.

Also
"Other Premium Creators will check to make sure your game is safe to play"
I wonder how realistic this is.

At launch games can be rated on their website so hopefully the cream will rise to the top.

As for the checking it's currently in progress and is working ok. When you submit your game you give it a description and ratings (blood\gore etc) it goes into peer review. Other people download try and say whether it passes or fails. Currently the only criteria you have for failing a game is if it's unplayable because of bugs, the description doesn't match the game or if the ratings are wrong. You're not supposed to fail it because of things you think might be illegal or you didn't like the game or the quality isn't very good.

[defanual]

If that's the case then I feel my prediction is inevitable, as electronicStar eloquently put it

Only problem is you can expect a flood of games 90% of which will probably be crap.

[luggage]

Isn't that about the same ratio as commercial games anyway?
I'm looking forward to playing the 10% of good games.

There will be a rating system at launch. Although you'll only be able to rate a game from a website to begin with. That should help your game rise to the top.

[Mattias Gustavsson]

Only problem is you can expect a flood of games 90% of which will probably be crap.

Yes, that's the case for all open platforms.

This is the reason why people want to get their game on places like XBLA: because they know there's a lot of potential buyers browsing XBLA (and they do so because they know there won't be lots of crap on there).

Same thing with portals really. Getting your game on bigfish means more sales than putting it on download.com.

The way I see it: there's two good open platforms already, Windows and Mac, and I don't see much point developing for the XBox just to release on what is pretty much another download.com. Seems to me there's more and better sales channels on PCs...

So... Why would anyone want to do this again?

[cliffski]

So... Why would anyone want to do this again?

• low to insignificant piracy rate
• high conversion rate
• stable hardware

[J Fizzle]

• low to insignificant piracy rate
• high conversion rate
• stable hardware
• no credit card & virus fears
• promotion on xbox.com & 360 dashboard if game is good enough
• new audience (many gamers don't game on PC)

Added a few.

[Slapdash]

I'm with Cliffski and others here on the side that the Xbox Live Community games is something great.

We started developing an XNA game just to see what XNA development is like and to learn. Well our game is 80% finished and we can now enter it into the Dream.Build.Play comp. We can put it online for download. and we can now release it on the Xbox Live Community games for free. hell if 1 guy buys it we would have a bonus we never thought we had when we started this purely for learning purposes.


I think the more exposure an indie / small studio can get the better.
I must say I smiled broadly when I saw our game run on a console for the first time.
Yes MS is acting like a publisher but it's not a publisher in the strictest sense of the word. The are basically charging you for the platform.

[arrogancy]

low to insignificant piracy rate
high conversion rate
stable hardware
no credit card & virus fears
promotion on xbox.com & 360 dashboard if game is good enough
new audience (many gamers don't game on PC)
can still simultaneously release the title on PC without any real porting issues
don't have to pay $10,000 for a dev kit (why was that left out of the early arguments?)
don't have to pay $10-$20,000 for the rest of the certification issues

Added some more as well.