What do you want from your indie game?
Not sure what topic this fits best in.
I was having a really great discussion with a friend about why people enter a certain business field, and how they "break in" to it.
Largely it was based on my displeasure with the standard "how to break in to the game industry" seminars that one runs in to at just about every convention where a guy gives you a vague and biased run down on how he got in to the game world while ignoring all the other avenues...
I digress.
What is it that you want from your indie game? Why are you making them?
Take a game like "I am jesus" for example had everybody here at the office playing it for hours, laughing etc, but they never would have paid a cent for it. Why was it made? To get rich? To show off? To have something to put on your resume so you can apply to a corporate game maker #53-a? Just cause you had free time? It made itself (thats what happens when you dont vacuum out the PC)? Whats the reason?
My answer: I make them because I want to be my own boss, I love video games, and I have the management and production talent to get them made as a job that pays me. At the end of the day, what do I want? I want a job I love that also pays me, videogames satisfies the first requirement, the second one... well I'm getting close.
Mind sharing your business / personal goal for making indie games?
Thank you in advance for sharing.
The freedom to do things my way.
I'm want to make a living from my games, but I do not expect to get rich.
Lastly, I'd like to change the world. I hope at the end of this long journey I make a games that changes the way people think and that leads to a better world.
I originally got into indie games because I love computers, games, strategy and programming.
Philip Ludington
Mr. Phil Games
I got tired of being someone else's wage slave.
I got tired of "the industry" thinking there was one way to skin a cat (and regularly re-hashing old cat skinning games and passing them off as better).
I enjoy making things. I enjoy making games that give people tools to make things (including choices).
I enjoy game developers (i.e. I really like how game developers are so sharing, I've met loads of great developers and somehow I got really into the indie mindset).
I like how I can create something personal to me with as big or as small a feature set as I wish.
I like how I can choose what to do with my own games.
I like the fact that my games can reflect my personality.
I like the fact that I can talk about my games without showing them
www.mindflock.com - social AI-based games
<--- what he said.
Oh, and I want to take over the world, too.
Cas
Dang! That was my plan too!Originally Posted by princec
For me, a lot of what Phil said is also true. Mostly it's about following my heart, my spirit, doing what I feel is right for me to be doing. It's more like play than work (sometimes). It's not really logical or cognitive reasons, it's a feeling thing. Then again, perhaps that needs balancing, and I need more of a business head on my shoulders, at times.
I want to take the humble beginnings of my first game, and turn it into a multi-million dollar game's company. Buy out all the smaller companies and have them release slight updates at full price on a yearly basis, enforce players to update by canceling multi player services after the game's been out for 8 - 12 months... Isn't that everyone's dream?
I've got numerous goals, too many to mention (none include working in the commercial game industry). Aim for small achievable goals is what I say! Basically, I'm doing what I want to do. Like the other responses, I'm having a fun time, and if all goes to plan... I'll even get paid
There is nothing like a high you get when you watch other people play your game ( well at list I think there is nothing like it , I have not tried any restricted substances
What fascinates me is randomly created game environments , in the future I would like to create RPG which will be totally randomly created . Where terrain , quests and dialogs of NPC would be created semi randomly and every adventure would be completely different even for me. Unfortunately I am a long way off from such technology but with my second game I am getting closer.
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious.
- Brendan Gill
I created card games for years. Most were terrible but I do play a few of them from time to time. The ones that were the most appreciated were the games I made for my kids.
I make games because I'm a programmer so I definately have the skills. I make games because they're appreciated more than a database migration tool or a file system user rights auditing application. It's a creative project that my wife can enjoy.
If you think breaking in the game industry is hard to break into, don't even consider the card game or board game industries. Those markets are locked down tight by a handful of big name companies who have no interest in indie creators, the production costs are astronomical and retail chains are reluctant to deal with someone who can't handle orders of a million units even if they're unwilling to buy more than a hundred thousand over the next year.
The indie video game industry has a large, successful group of people and companies, production values are miniscule except for time, and distribution is simple and cheap.
Just more and more money and nothing else!
Adrian Cummings
Software Amusements
When I was a kid, I used to make games for my brother. There was nothing more satisfying to me than to spring a mind-blowing game on him. Nothing has really changed, except that now I have thousands of brothers and sisters, and they have no idea about what's about to hit them.
Firstly, I make'em because I love to get my own idea represented in a game so I can play it and also have other people enjoy it. And hopefully, by doing this I'll someday make a living on it too, which is one of my ultimate goal, work with what I love! Meanwhile I try to pretend I like my worderful job and its amazing database application, unbeliavable clients change of mind and crazy dead lines aspects.
For me, I wanted to become a better game designer. In the industry, I was forced to make games my team and I knew would suck. The only way I could make decent games was to make them as an indie.
However, one of my criteria for a good game is, people must actually be willing to part with their hard-earned money because they enjoy it. So, I would like to have a successful business as well.
Still working on that second part, but that just means I'm still working on the first one, too.
I can't stand being beholden to other people's bad decisions. I make better decisions than a lot of people, and when I do make bad ones, at least I make them with as much intelligence and effort as I can. I don't have a problem taking responsibility for my own mistakes, because I can do something about them. Whereas other people's mistakes, typically I cannot, I can only walk away. I can't stand being beholden to other people's lack of design vision, their willingness to play it safe and not pioneer anything. I have more vision than a lot of people as to what can be accomplished in both computers and games, so my purpose is to get all the barriers and nay-sayers out of the way so that things can happen.
My long term goal is to get paid ridiculous sums of money to do exactly what I want to do creatively. So far I've managed to get paid reasonably well, or work on exactly what I want, but not both at once. Still I've preserved my independence in so doing, and that's the most important thing. Unless some outfit comes along that convinces me they're my equal as far as decisionmaking and vision. If someone else's ideas aren't as good as mine, why should I be taking direction from them?
Last edited by bvanevery; 08-22-2007 at 10:57 AM.
How so? There have been some wildly original, revolutionary, popular games over the last 30 years, and I can't see how they're changed the way people think other than that it's OK to neglect family, friends, finances, personal health and hygiene, etc. to entertain themselves.
That's a hard question to answer but here's a try. I think that Will Wright challenged the way people see life through SimCity and The Sims. His next game Spore already has got people thinking about Evolution and Intelligent Design and it isn't even out yet. The specific impact is hard to trace, but I think he's affected the thinking of a lot of people, which has world altering consequences.
It is a huge challenge, here's to living up to it.
Philip Ludington
Mr. Phil Games
Yep but there's a big difference between the games that Will Wright has made over the years and all the casual games you see here. Casual games are just for a quick casual fun, they're nothing more. SimCity and Sims were revolutionary when they were released and I've yet to see a casual revolutionary game.
What makes you think that here = casual games?
It doesnt hold that all people here are interested in casual games (as in the casual industry).
I'm not sure I see much point in trying to change the world with games, but I sure as hell can see that changing entertainment can be a good goal
www.mindflock.com - social AI-based games
I don't see myself as a casual game developer, but I could see Cliffski's Democracy changing the way people see the world. What is the name of that game about the Rabbi... I'm sure that change the way people saw Judaism.
I believe that games can truly affect people, changing their outlook. This could have important positive world changing consequences.
It is a lofty goal, one I have a very good chance of never reaching, but it is certainly on my mind. I guess you could say I'm not an Art for Art sake type.
Philip Ludington
Mr. Phil Games
I could swear that Pharao (Sierra) taught me about a civilization's infrastructure. Like you need luxury shops when primary needs are fulfilled and such.
I keep seeing these articles in the popular press claiming that Civilization has some kind of educational value and should be considered as some kind of adjunct to the Serious Games movement. Now, having studied that genre more than any other by a good order of magnitude, I ain't buyin' it. I do think Civ games can get people interested in history. To say that they're fulfilling the educational mission in a manner comparable to, say, a Discovery Channel documentary, is ridiculous. But the potential is there, if anyone wanted to make a realistic builder game about the Egyptian pyramids or some such.
Would that change anything? I don't think so. The Discovery Channel is already doing historical documentaries just fine. I think a title probably has to delve into artistic and political commentary before it can hope to function as a change agent.
I will say that Peacemaker has me intrigued. I've played the demo, and my initial experience that it's frustrating to not know how my actions are going to improve the Israeli-Palestinian situation. With any other game that would be cause to put it down and give up, but I say to myself, heh, that's just like real life! So I may buy this game when I have time to play it, which is unfortunately not now.
And, let's face it: realistic though the uncertainties may be, it has caused me to avoid an impulse purchase because it isn't fun to not know what's going on. Nor is it instructive; I don't know that the game is realistic, I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt that it's realistic. Confusion about how my actions affect the outcome could just be bad design, bad simulation, or bad communication of cause and effect to the player. I strongly suspect the latter of those 3, but I'll suspend judgment until I've played it more. Which isn't possible with the demo, as it only allows a measly 8 turns. Enough to get the flavor of the action, but not enough to gain much understanding. That said, I can explore every permutation of the available options and see if patterns of cause and effect become clear to me.
Did those games *really* alter the way people think? Don't get me wrong, I think there have been some revolutionary games, but do people's lives really change as a result of playing them?
Maybe I'm playing the wrong games - they're just entertainment to me.
I don't believe that Pharao shows some realistic image of ancient Egypt, either. But the feeling for building up an infrastructure works so well and is so involving that it presents an emotional way to teaching me things that reading a book hardly can give me.
btw:
[ "to teaching me things that reading a book hardly can give me" wow, this sounds like some wacky word order. please PM me if you are a native english speaker and know the correct sentence!]
Ok, actually the biggest reason why I now work nighttime with games and daytime (fulltime) as a teacher is to in the end be able to be home more. Reason is that my son is now diagnosed Asbergers syndrom and it's been a fucking nightmare the past year.
He now only sleep every each night (stays awake 36 hours before sleeping) and I want to be home more so he doesnt at least have to be at school longer than he needs.
Of course I like what I do but it's my first game and it's actually just a test if I can make enough money out of this to be able to at least be close to him during daytime.
My reason is probably unique. I want to save the world! No, seriously.
For years I've been studying Georgism (LVT, single tax, geoism, call it what you will) and I think that, if handled in the right way, it could really work. But I need to study the subject in more depth and work out the details. Nobody will pay me for that, so I need a source of income that gives me real freedom. So it has to be something I can enjoy, and will last me until the day I die. Given my background, making a game seems like an ideal solution.
I've chosen a business model that should provide long term revenue yet become easier over the years: I have a single story world that becomes bigger and bigger, adding more and more classic stories, becoming better and better value to the user, while requiring me to add less and less with each release.
The key to this is modest requirements. I couldn't do it if I needed a lot of money. My goal is to sell a hundred a month within five years. I think that's realistic, given that my game is based on well known books, so there's instant brand recognition, and earlier versions will act as advertising for later versions. Within ten years I plan to have a comfortable daily schedule of maybe four hours working on the game, and eight hours studying economics.
If all goes according to plan, people who buy the game wil not only play a chaacter who saves the world, they will be helping to save the world in real life too.
Wow. Good luck! Someone should write an article for a newspaper based on the wide variety of indie game makers. Casual game sites give a very shallow, superficial image to indie games, but I think a newspaper article would be great publicity. Anyone journalists reading?
Sorry to dredge up this old thread, but the last week or so has seen me trawling around reading all the good stuff here, and well I thought this would be a good place to introduce myself and part of why I've turned up here.
"What do you want from your indie game?"
Is a great question. We would all like to make a great living out of our passion(as would pretty much anyone from any walk of life), that's a given but not always possible sadly.
So if you take out the hit and miss nature of funding your next Ferrariwhat are the other motivations for the indie dev?
As Developer:
Freedom has to be near the top of most people's list I suspect. Running your own business isn't for everyone but if you can make it work then it has a certain value you can never experience just doing a salaried/contract type of job.
This extends on many levels from being able to control what you could earn, to just not having that difficult to deal with Boss man always looking over your shoulder.
I've never worked in the mainstream games industry, but my partner does(and the stories she tells!) and I know a few people who do, and as a long time follower of the medium of games I think all the best stuff(games wise) is going to come from the indies rather than the AAA production houses.
And the whole XNA/XBLA/WiiWare/PlayStation Network push shows that in some part the big three know this, or are at least wanting to cover this base as best they can.
So as a would be creator of Indie games I would go with having the freedom to express myself through my games and my business, and I know I would probably not be able to bring to market the kind of games I want to make via the traditional method of approaching a big publisher.
If I can make good product(and this bar rises each year) then maybe I can make decent money, but I know this is often years down the line for many guys here so you need a long-term strategy for success. But it is possible.
Sharing is important too. Like a few have mentioned, seeing people enjoy the game you've made is very satisfying.
Although I would never personally make a free to play game(flash/browser etc as the OP mentioned), as it seems like a lot of effort for what return? I'm so happy there are thousands of people who do! There are some incredible free games, and I suppose they all help push that quality bar up a little higher still?(which isn't a bad thing imho)
As Player
Interesting, fun games. For me in terms of playing an Indie game compared to a AAA title, 'Interesting' is probably the important factor. Most games are fun(either Indie or AAA), some more than others, but for me one of the pure definitions of a 'game' is that it is a fun thing to take part in. And AAA games can still do that part of the equation.
Due to the whole way the AAA market has positioned itself over the years I actually have started to lose interest in it to a larger degree. And there are many reasons for this not involved in the topic at hand.
So for me my gaming 'Interest' has started to move me in the direction of Indie type games - they have so much more room for creativity and experimentation(not always a recipe for financial success - Okami is a good example of a AAA finding this out, even with a great game to play). I know where to go if I want another big budget FPS, and I know where to go to find something a little different, and hopefully it is the later that more will turn to over time.
-Jim
@Everyone: I'm so glad I found this place. Before I did, I was starting to fear that there was no one else out there who had the same ideals as me, but I'm hearing a lot of my own feelings echoed in the posts made so far. I think that also explains why I've found the work freelance work I've been doing for users here so satisfying, compared to the frustration I was feeling with prior clients: we're all shooting for the same thing.
@NathanR: In addition to what others have said, I think that entertainment (games, movies, TV, etc.) has become so condescending of late... I really think it's possible to be accessible without being trite, and to relax and entertain people while also challenging them.
@MedievalElks: That's just it. You feel like the games are just entertainment, but they're having some impact on your mind whether or not you realize it, same as reading a book or watching TV. That can be good or bad, depending on the nature of the entertainment.
Allow me to set modesty aside for a moment to make a point: I'm a lot smarter, more passionate, and more multi-talented than your average person. I have a degree in physics, strong writing skills, artistic ability, some programming knowledge... I'm a good cook, a strong Go player, etc. etc. Why is that? I went to public school, my parents aren't particularly rich... admittedly, they're smart people too, but I don't think it's all genetics. I firmly believe that it's because of my recreational activities as a youth:
My parents would only let me watch a few normal cartoons a week, but I could watch the children's math, science, art, etc. shows all I wanted.
I learned to read early on, and my mother gave me fairly advanced books to read. She'd read part of a chapter to me each night, then give me the book to continue on my own while she went to read to my younger sister, leaving it up to me when to turn off the light and call it quits for the night.
My parents didn't buy me condescending children's games. They bought me simple but intelligent board games, and let me play cards with the grown-ups when their friends came over.
We had an Atari 2600 and an Apple II, so I learned to use a computer very early. When I was maybe 4 or 5, I'd sit on my dad's lap and we'd play Ultima II together. I would run out of the room whenever an Orc appeared, and peer in terror around the door frame until he'd slain it. I have vivid memories of this... some of my only ones from that age.
I got into Dungeons & Dragons early, and would spent hours on end drawing maps and mulling over statistics, even when I had no one to play my adventures.
So, put that all together, and you start to see a picture appearing - I don't think it's coincidence that I ended up being a creative person with strong planning/strategic skills, very literate and numerate, an intuition for statistics and probabilities, and a broad range of knowledge and interests.
And so, yes, I do believe that games can change the way people think, and consequently the world. The trick is in coaxing people to play progressively more challenging games, when meanwhile they're being bombarded by endless rehashes of the same concepts, with condescending tutorials and facile game play.
In addition to what others said about being own boss, freedom, income, and doing games as biz, two others on my list:
1. Conquer the Top10 charts. I'm a number's guy, and I like shooting for #1s.
2. Innovate on a genre and create something unique that many people will enjoy.
-Steve Z.
Last edited by SteveZ; 08-18-2008 at 02:21 PM.
I like to build, and I have an excess of ideas!
To crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentations of their women!
Honestly though - it's just to have a real opportunity to do something I love for a living. I know I can do better than just making a living, the only question is time and how many times I will have to fail before I learn what works for me.
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