Do's and dont's of dealing with publishers

[moco]

This is a thread intended as a reference for newcomers, that asks people here for their do's and dont's of dealing with publishers. Since many of us have come from the "I did my time in the industry, got fed up, got out, and started solo" route - I assume the majority as programers (?) - contact with a publisher is an altogether new prospect.

So you look at your partly-finished game and you can see its merits, its weak points, and its potential reasonably clearly. It's the moment you've been thinking of since you started the project. So - then what?

(1) Is it always a good idea to try to push your game through portals? Most people seem to go down that route, but is it always the best strategy?

(2) At what stage should you send your demo to a publisher? Is it a good idea to send a "first look", or should you send a more complete package? As far as I can gather this depends entirely on the publisher - in some cases it's a good idea simply to ask them that same question.

(3) Which publishers to send to? And what are the differences between them?

(4) If anything, what do you need to be wary of when you submit work-in-progress demos?

(5) Later down the line - say a publisher shows interest in your game... what then? How can you get the most out of a potential deal?

(6) How can you be sure that you're not going to get ripped off? Does this happen???

Thanks in advance :)

[Tr00jg]

I would love to see some of these answers!

[DrWilloughby]

Before I dive in here, I should say that there are no hard and fast rules. In fact, sometimes the most succesful people are the ones that find a way to break the rules.

Also, let's get some terminology straight:
-Distributor: a company that distributes your software to a number of sites where it is sold. They handle the payment processing. Typically a Distributor will take 70-80% of the sales price. Examples are Trymedia, Plimus. Most distributors offer a DRM solution.
-DRM: A way to protect your software from being pirated, payment processing is built in. Many distributors will offer a DRM solution, or you can use an external one such as Armadillo.
-Affiliate: A portal that sells other people's software, often through a distributor. The affiliates usually get a big chunk of the distributor's percentage.
-PUBLISHER: A publisher offers MORE than just distribution. This is why I wanted to go over this terminology. Publishers aren't really all that common in the online space, since the developer takes all the responsibility for testing, PR, etc. Retail publishers will make the packaging, handle distribution, sometimes even do PR. Distributors are not publishers, and they shouldn't flatter themselves to think that they are.

That said:

(1) Is it always a good idea to try to push your game through portals? Most people seem to go down that route, but is it always the best strategy?

(2) At what stage should you send your demo to a publisher? Is it a good idea to send a "first look", or should you send a more complete package? As far as I can gather this depends entirely on the publisher - in some cases it's a good idea simply to ask them that same question.

(3) Which publishers to send to? And what are the differences between them?

(4) If anything, what do you need to be wary of when you submit work-in-progress demos?

(5) Later down the line - say a publisher shows interest in your game... what then? How can you get the most out of a potential deal?

(6) How can you be sure that you're not going to get ripped off? Does this happen???

1) It depends on the game. For most digitally distributed titles from small developers, yes. But there are other options as well. Steam is an option. Focusing on retail is another. Many developers choose to sell direct from their site as a "soft launch" for a month or two before launching on portals.

2) Develop a relationship with a contact at a distributor. But once you are hooked up with someone, it can move pretty quickly. Note that if you have less of a reputation, it will help to have a more finished product (beta, say). If you have a rep, sometimes you hardly need to have anything at all. That said, I had no rep when I made Wildlife Tycoon, and Trymedia signed on before it was even alpha.

3) There are other threads on the distributors out there. The difference is in the size of their affiliate network, their personal service, the quality and breadth of their reporting tools, their reputation for on-time payments, and whether or not they are cross-platform. If you are going to one, most likely you should go to many. Gather experience with as many as you can.

4) I don't think you need to worry about cloning before your game is out. Generally games only get cloned when they sell well. That's the entire purpose of cloning. I find that people are too worried about protecting their ideas. It's more about execution. Generally I find protecting ideas is really more important from a PR perspective. Then again, no one is cloning my games.

5) Ha, this is a very broad question regarding deal-making that could apply to any business. Negotiation is about three things: relationship, information, and leverage. Develop a positive relationship with the person you are negotiating with. Learn as much information as you can about their company and their past deals so that you can identify weaknesses and when they are bullshitting you. Find some way to get leverage and use it.

6) Yes, people get ripped off. I'll let others with personal experiences in this talk about it. I've been burned, but I wouldn't say that I've been truly ripped off yet.

[Chris Evans]

Also, let's get some terminology straight:
-Distributor: a company that distributes your software to a number of sites where it is sold. They handle the payment processing. Typically a Distributor will take 70-80% of the sales price. Examples are Trymedia, Plimus. Most distributors offer a DRM solution.



I wouldn't call Plimus a distributor. I'd say they're a shareware payment processor who deliver file downloads and serial keys. Your game is available in their affiliate system but they do not distribute your game on other sites. Best of all, they only take about 10%. ;) I'd put Plimus in the same category as Regnow, BMT Micro, and etc. I think Trymedia is in a different category since their cut is bigger and you have less control of what's going on. They're probably closer to your definition of a distributor.

[DrWilloughby]

I wouldn't call Plimus a distributor. I'd say they're a shareware payment processor who deliver file downloads and serial keys. Your game is available in their affiliate system but they do not distribute your game on other sites. Best of all, they only take about 10%. ;) I'd put Plimus in the same category as Regnow, BMT Micro, and etc. I think Trymedia is in a different category since their cut is bigger and you have less control of what's going on. They're probably closer to your definition of a distributor.
My bad, my terminology was a little off. Though the only major difference is that Plimus doesn't ACTIVELY pursue distribution for you, though they do ENABLE it. Plimus is more than a DRM provider, though.

[zoombapup]

Nice response Andy,

But I have to disagree with the publisher comments. I agree that many online "publishers" really arent, but I do see that there potentially could be publishers in the online space.

Publishers provide marketing help, that would be useful for indies.
Publishers can help find contractors to push the quality of the game up.
Publishers can actually seek out deals that might be closed off to an individual company (I'm thinking of retail deals or whatever).

I do agree about the risk thing though. I'm not sure I want to move towards a standard publisher/developer relationship anyway. But I think that the right partners can help both sides, wether you call them a publisher or not.

I guess I'm specifically thinking about my own circumstances, because I'd love to work with a publisher as a partner as long as they were capable of promoting my games and freeing me to create them.

What worries me though, is the whole branding issue to be honest. The balance of effort is firmly placed on the developer, yet they get none of the brand building and brand loyalty benefits from taking on that risk. I still havent quite worked that one out and to be honest, I havent heard a compelling case for that from many of the portals.

But not all publishers are portals, so maybe there's hope.

As far as the questions go: 5 & 6 are pure business questions. How can you know you are getting a good deal and not getting ripped off? Experience plays a large part in that. Knowing by experience what IS a good deal can help a lot. If you dont have that experience personally, pay someone who does!

Knowing the details of whats called the "value chain" in casual games speak is a good start. Who gets what cut of the overall pie? Who actually puts in the effort and who accepts the most risk, who is in a position of power etc.

Basically, its negotiation, I'm sure there are a billion books on the subject. Do your homework!

[DrWilloughby]

But I have to disagree with the publisher comments. I agree that many online "publishers" really arent, but I do see that there potentially could be publishers in the online space.
Oh yes, they definitely exist, there just aren't many of them and that isn't the standard relationship for these types of games. The biggest reason there aren't a lot of online publishers is that it is generally pretty cheap to develop these games, so there are plenty of developers willing to take the risk, which means there is little demand for publishers.

That said, PlayFirst is actively publishing games, others are doing the same. The portals will quite often partner with a developer to create their biggest titles.

In the big budget world it's different. Publishers amortize the cost of development across a bunch of titles.

I read a blog recently about Sundance that mentioned that indie game development had a lot to learn about raising capital from the indie movie world. I think they are right. I plan to do a bit of research on the subject...

[S2P]

Some good valid points there Andy - made a good read.

Jules

[Applewood]

I still havent quite worked that one out and to be honest, I havent heard a compelling case for that from many of the portals.
He who pays the piper ?

It's always the people with the money who call the shots, as ultimately that's the thing we're all after. If you don't feel they're earning their cut, you look elsewhere. Until it gets to a point where the portals control _all_ the cashflow, there is no realistic "elsewhere" and we start realising they're the new "publishers" people round here like to moan about. This should've started a few years back from what I read around here.

Hell, last time I looked, Handango's commision actually went up instead of down if you were successful. How the hell does that work.

Portals take way too much money for what they do and the dependency they have on the people they fleece. However, they do it because they can and I would too, so fair play!

What bugs me is at least mainstream publishers actually publish. How hard is it to knock stuff out from a website ? Most guys here do it, on top of everything else, all by themselves ffs!

[zoombapup]

Well, to be fair to some of them, they DO at least do deals with each other across the board, something that saves the developer time.

But thats not really convincing either, because the time saved doesnt really justify the percentage.

I think the biggest selling point for a publisher, is its contacts. Can it get you in walrmart? on XBLA? those kind of points would have me looking at a publisher to work with.

As Paul says, fair play to them, its supply and demand. Oversupply of games leads to deals which skew towards portals.

[Sakura Games]

Just a quick answer to point 5-6.
You can spot a serious offers a miles away. A crap usual offer is "we can sell 150,000 copies on your game" - then when you ask for advance royalty they pretend not to know what it is :D
Also ask in forums for other people experiences.

How to get the best offer? first, you need to have a good game - otherwise you won't get a good offer. Ok, once you have it, simply refuse the first offers. If they're really interested, they'll insist. I know personally many devs that after refused first 2-3 offers, got a final offer that was at least 3-4 times better (in term of money, royalty, bonuses, etc) than the first one.

Too many devs simply give up and accept the first offer they get...

[moco]

Thanks guys,

It's responses like these that make hanging round in this forum well worth the effort :)

[Polycount Productions]

(1) Is it always a good idea to try to push your game through portals? Most people seem to go down that route, but is it always the best strategy?
I believe many casual game makers are taking that route, and I suppose it's worth it. If Cliff Harris does it, there's no reason why others shouldn't follow ;)

(2) At what stage should you send your demo to a publisher? Is it a good idea to send a "first look", or should you send a more complete package? As far as I can gather this depends entirely on the publisher - in some cases it's a good idea simply to ask them that same question.
For most developers "more complete package" sounds better.

(3) Which publishers to send to? And what are the differences between them?
Well, that depends about your game. If you have a casual game you can use portals (that aren't publishers, necessarily), but I suppose different publishers can do things differently and offer different contracts.

(4) If anything, what do you need to be wary of when you submit work-in-progress demos?
I'd attach some notes that clearly defines it is "work-in-progress", but nothing else come to my mind now...

(5) Later down the line - say a publisher shows interest in your game... what then? How can you get the most out of a potential deal?
Most publishers leave little room for negotiations, and unless you have established product/brand you simply have to say "yes" or "no".

(6) How can you be sure that you're not going to get ripped off? Does this happen???
I've heard some horror stories regarding some publishers/portals, but the good thing is bad news travel faster than light: just google for information about certain publishers or ask in forums (like indiegamer) "is [name of the company] publisher trustworthy?". I bet you will get fast answers.

[moco]

I'm sure there are a billion books on the subject. Do your homework!

Anyone got any recommendations?

[svero]

I'll throw in my 2 cents...

>(1) Is it always a good idea to try to push your game through portals? Most
>people seem to go down that route, but is it always the best strategy?

If your game is a portal style game you'll be hard pressed to make direct sales in the same volume the portals, with their established customer bases, can. In exchange you'll be giving up a heavy percentage of the sales. But the question is phrased a little obscurely. You can either bring the game to individual portals or have the portal "publish" the game. For the portals that actually publish (most do both these days) then that's a slightly different and more complicated question...

>(2) At what stage should you send your demo to a publisher? Is it a good
>idea to send a "first look", or should you send a more complete package? As
>far as I can gather this depends entirely on the publisher - in some cases
>it's a good idea simply to ask them that same question.

The more complete you can make the game on your own, I think the better deal you'll get from a publisher who's interested in your game. A completed game represents less risk than a prototype, and much less than a design document. The downside to doing this is that ... the publisher may see potential in a prototype and help you finish it in a way that suits their audience. If you took the completed game in the wrong direction it may end up being something they're not interested in for whatever reason.

>(3) Which publishers to send to? And what are the differences between
>them?

Tough one to answer... and again we're hitting up a definition wall. When you say publisher, do you mean giving your game exclusively to one company and having them sell it for you, or do you mean asking reflexive, bigfish, and real to put your game up for sale? If you're just using the sites as online stores to sell more games then bring your title to as many ask you can so long as you feel the basic deal is fair. If you want a single company to do all your sales for you... Again that's a more complicated question, but it's been discussed at length in other threads.

>(4) If anything, what do you need to be wary of when you submit
>work-in-progress demos?

I can think of a few things but nothing you can do a whole lot about. There's always "some" level of risk in showing your game to others, but most of the big publishers and portals are respectable.

>(5) Later down the line - say a publisher shows interest in your game...
>what then? How can you get the most out of a potential deal?

It depends how good a negotiator you are. If you're just going to portals as individual sales sites most of the deals are fairly standard. They offer the same percentage to everyone. To get a special deal you'd have to have something special. A long working relationship. A multi title deal. A proven track record of big hits.. etc...

>(6) How can you be sure that you're not going to get ripped off? Does this
>happen???

There's not a whole lot you can. I don't think you'll have any real trouble with any of the well known publishers or portals in this regard. But generally speaking once you put the game out there, there is always the chance that elements from the game will be used, that the idea will be used, the the idea is already in development, etc... Publishers can't accept games without basically saying legally.. you can submit but then we can do what we want, because they can't open themselves up to the possibility that what you're submitting is already very similar to what they're working on in house and then as a result of that ending up in some legal fight with you down the road where you claim they stole your concept etc... For my part I think, unless you already have a working relationship with a company, bring them something thats as close to finished as you can make it, and not too far from being released. That will usually put you in the best bargaining position and is safest with regards to the kinds of things you seem to be worrying about.

[Anthony Flack]

the publisher may see potential in a prototype and help you finish it in a way that suits their audience. If you took the completed game in the wrong direction it may end up being something they're not interested in for whatever reason.

Of course there is a downside to this too. You can get in a real mess when someone else is trying to second-guess the direction of your game and how it will work with their audience, and you could end up being game-jacked in your own project. It's always so hard to express your exact intentions with a half-completed project... but even if the finished product ends up being "not for them" it will at least be the game you intended to make, rather than some frankenstein creation with multiple lead designers that is unlikely to turn out well anyway.

I generally like the idea of finishing games and then seeing who is interested afterwards. It's so much more straightforward for both parties if you can present a finished product and say "this is what I'm offering, it looks like this and it's ready now".

[svero]

Yeah there's no question that that design by committee issue comes up when you co-develop with a publisher. But depending on the publisher and what they suggest you can sometimes also end up with a stronger game. So that can go both ways.

[amaranth]

Here's my shot...

1) Portals are good. They are one (of many) forms of revenue and exposure. They take a larger chunk of the profits, but you should still end up making good money. In my case, exposure through portals increased the number of direct sales through my site, and it was like winning a double lottery.

2) Publishers are all the rage, but I would stay away from them until you have completed a full game. The earlier you present your idea, the less you will walk away with from the deal. Make your game, prove that it is good, and then present it to a publisher. Also, having a publisher will not ensure the success of your game. Some publishers may buy the rights to your game and never do anything with it. Some publishers may not market it fully or towards the correct audience. I suggest you find a successful publisher who has done well with the type of game you are creating. And remember, you do not need a publisher to succeed.

3) This is a hard question to answer. It depends upon the type of game you are creating and the audience for which it is intended.

4) The earlier the progress, the less you walk away with in the end.

5) Write to other publishers to request counter offers. If any of these offers are better, share these offers with the publisher you want to work with.

6) Talk to other developers who have dealt with the publisher before you sign anything. Also, remember that the publisher will be asking the same question about you. Lots of people make demos, but few finish projects.

I think these are great questions, and good luck with your game! :)

[James C. Smith]

[with a Portal]... you'll be giving up a heavy percentage of the sales.

You can't give up something you never had. You weren't going to sell your game to 99% of those people (the portal visitors why were never going to go to your web site). You are not give up anything. You are getting extra money you otherwise would never have gotten, plus you are getting more exposure.

I know we are not disagreeing. I think svero and I both think you should sell your game through a portal when you can. But it just bugs me when I see people talk about things in this way even if they agree with me. You can't give up something that you never had.

[Ola]

You can't give up something you never had. You weren't going to sell your game to 99% of those people (the portal visitors why were never going to go to your web site). You are not give up anything. You are getting extra money you otherwise would never have gotten, plus you are getting more exposure.

I know we are not disagreeing. I think svero and I both think you should sell your game through a portal when you can. But it just bugs me when I see people talk about things in this way even if they agree with me. You can't give up something that you never had.

You are both right and wrong, depending on what kind of game you are talking about. There isn't a single equation for all indie games. I suppose Svero is talking about more niche games, while you are talking about casual hit games.

A portal hit like Zuma or Hunstville sure will make lots of extra sales on portals, because you will get tons of special promotion for it, and then reach out to tons of new people.

An average game or less causal one, that won't get any special promotion, portals will only put in their catalogue. In this case, there will not be much extra sales, so the loss you get from serach engines, or people going to discount portals etc. may not be worth it.

[LilGames]

My strategy is not to sell my game to one million people at $1 profit a piece, but instead to sell ONE copy of my game to one person, for 1 million $. :-)

[Ola]

My strategy is not to sell my game to one million people at $1 profit a piece, but instead to sell ONE copy of my game to one person, for 1 million $. :-)

Hehe. That strategy, is normally called "using a publisher" or "selling your IP" or something along those lines :-)

I see your point though, sometimes it can be easier to convince one person, than one million :-)

[LilGames]

Hehe. That strategy, is normally called "using a publisher" or "selling your IP" or something along those lines :-)

I see your point though, sometimes it can be easier to convince one person, than one million :-)

Actually I was being sarcastic and my serious point is the inverse. Sometimes you make more selling to a wider audience at a lower profit margin, than you do to a small audience at a higher profit margin.

[Ola]

Actually I was being sarcastic and my serious point is the inverse. Sometimes you make more selling to a wider audience at a lower profit margin, than you do to a small audience at a higher profit margin.

I supposed you were sarcastic. Either way, I gave another perspective to what you said.

Personally, I don't preach for one strategy or another. I know people making good sales from portals only, and others that make good sales from using their own homepage only, while most people do a combination of portals + affiliates + direct sales. I think it's good to have knowledge about all possibilities.

Any of the above alternatives can be a succesfull strategy, depending on your game, what kind of traffic you have or is able to get, your marketing plan etc. Lots of factors, that all play a part. So unfortunately (or maybe I should say luckily) there isn't a simple "template" strategy that works on every game, for every company on this planet.