Reducing Noise

[svero]

Before the Dexterity forums shut down there were long discussions in the private moderator regarding the direction of the forums and what to do about certain perceived problems. In the end Steve decided to shut them down.

Now that the forums have moved over here we still have to deal with the same problems. One of the main problems is a general degrading of the quality of posts over time. As time has gone on there are more "noise" posts. That has the effect of driving away the more thoughtful posters, and so eventully your noise to good post ratio greatly favors noise and the forum is essentially dead as a good resource. So the question is. How do we keep the noise at a minimum?

Various things are being considered already but we thought we'd put the question to the members. What would you suggest we do to keep the quality of posts as high as possible thus extending the usefullness and life of the forum?

[Jack Norton]

I think the only way is to report any "stupid" post to the moderator (unless it is general chat, that forum really should be open to anyone). If a user has been reported lot of times (10 times or 5 times in a day for example), I think it should be enough to ban him from forums... after all you can't think of going around putting bullshits post everywhere and then get disappointed if you get banned :D
I don't want those forums to shut down, and I realize that the "noise" posts are a real problem for someone that is looking for useful things.

[Straightarrow]

I guess we'd almost certainly end up with some sort of user-driven feedback sceme, like so many other sites have. In that case, my answer would be: None!

If you set up metrics by which posts will be judged, posting will be optimized for higher scores in those metrics. Trouble is, it takes diversity out of posts, and really removes a few freedoms from the poster: you write with the metrics in the back of your head. Also, trolls get a platform to operate from. Karma-whores abound.

Secondly, this brings in a lot of meta-discussion which is MUCH worse than no discussion at all. You'll start seeing threads and posts like these: "Is the voting system adequate?", "Mod parent up!", "Is such and such a troll?", &etc to infinity.

On the dexterity forums, a yearly fee was once suggested, alá the ASP. I humbly suggest to the community that this solution be given some consideration. Yes, it does present some problems (where does the money go? wouldn't that keep out valuable contributors? how do you attract people in the first place?), but the obstacles to overcome are no bigger than a user feedback system.

[Jack Norton]

Maybe I found a better solution: make the forums available to all to reading, but limit posting only to trusted old members, and new ones must ask permission. Since we have lot of moderators I think that should be a viable option.
I don't want to see the same thread "which vendor you use?" or "new great indie publisher" again. Allow only people with real websites and real projects going on to post, all the newbies can just read and stop the noise... :)

[MiCo Games]

Rather than the technical "user-driven post-scoring" approach, and the somewhat elitist "only people we approve of can post" approach, I'd much rather see moderators lock all threads that are not appropriate. Simply locking threads that are considered not to be useful with the short comment "This topic have been discussed before... search the previous threads" or "This topic is not considered to be useful to indie developers" would be a good way to go, in my opinion. And I think even the General Chat forum should be moderated, but maybe a bit less strict.

Also, I wouldn't mind paying for access to the forum, and it wouldn't be a big deal where the money went. Give it to charity or split it between the moderators.

The signal to noise ratio IS a big problem, and my only fear is that it is already too late to do something about it...

[Jack Norton]

Simply locking threads that are considered not to be useful with the short comment
that is much work for moderators, if thread should increase to a great number daily. Preventing them from posting is the best way, the moderators shouldn't even look at the threads :)
Also even if a thread is locked, is still shown in the "new posts" search: honestly after I see 2-3 crap useless posts in the forums, I'm tempted to go away... :mad:

[MiCo Games]

that is much work for moderators, if thread should increase to a great number daily.
If it is too much work (which I doubt) we might need more moderators. I mean, it's really just about clicking Lock whenever they come across a "bad" post.

the moderators shouldn't even look at the threads
so... what should they be doing? :confused:

Also even if a thread is locked, is still shown in the "new posts" search
yes, buy it'll have a padlock next to it, which means it is easy to avoid, if you trust the moderators judgement (which I do). Also, it being locked means that it will soon go away from the new posts list anyway.

[Rod Hyde]

That is a tricky question.

Someone suggested a yearly fee for posting. If that has been shown to work in other forums then I'm in favour of it.

One idea is to separate the forums into a "General Chat" area, open to all, and other areas where posts are allocated by quota. Here are a couple of suggestions for how the quotas could work in these areas:

Free Monthly Quotas:
Each member gets a quota of n posts per month. If a member's posts are judged to be of sufficient quality, then their quota can be increased.

Free + Paid Monthly Quotas:
The first n posts each month in are free, but posting beyond the limit must be bought and paid for with micropayments, eg, $1 buys 10 posts.

I'm also beginning to warm to the idea of a Wiki, as suggested in another thread. One of the problems with the forum format is that it is (perceived as) difficult to look for old posts. A Wiki would be a great place to capture good information, such as the meat of the discussions as to which 3d engine to use.

--- Rod

[Wayward]

Personally, I think the noise levels here are very low, but I was never around for the forums golden era a few years ago. Maybe we have a different idea of what 'noise' is. For me, noise is:

Newbie Posts are questions and opinions by amateurs that fall below this boards general level of ability. The pros here don't have the time to help a kid fix a bug in his blitz scroller. Newbie posts are thankfully rare, but when they do make an appearance the members here are very polite, professional, and helpful. Now all that great help will just encourage newbies. Perhaps we should ignore them or send them to GameDev.
Repeated Threads are posted by people too lazy to search the archives first. They asks questions that has been asked and answered before. We can help alleviate this problem by naming threads are clearly as possible for searching, and creating a table-of-contents/index for each forum. I also think a complimentary wiki would help.
Repeated Replies are those same responses that keep popping up in the middle of any thread. Examples include: but Java doesn't work, Alien Flux control, how's Katsu going?, etc. Sometimes these casual remarks can throw a thread off course. At other times the banter can be funny (but often we're getting the same old jokes). No-one wants to ban jokes.
Off-Forum Posts are those posts which would be better handled by another forum. For example, Blitz technical questions should be sent to the BlitzBasic Forum, DirectX problems should be sent to the DirectX mailing list archives, OpenGL problems should be sent to the OpenGL forums, newbies should be sent to GameDev, and gamers should be sent to Rllmuk.
Marketteering posts are those unwelcome salespeople who drop by to promote a product that few of us are interested in. These marketteers are quite different to those members who offer a genuine service because they think it might be useful to other members. You can tell a marketteer because their post is the first and last time you'll hear from them.
Some suggestions from myself and other members:

Who are these forums for? Svero remarks (later) that he believes these forums are for indie game developers to share ideas and help promote their businesses. They are not meant for newbies learning to program games. We should advertise clearly what this forum is about and who it is for, especially now its called 'indiegamer'.
Publish Posting Rules for new members. Tell them what kinds of posts are accepted, and which are not. Point them to other forums that may be more appropriate. Give recommendations as to what constitues a good-quality post.
Provide all members with guidelines for dealing with the noise. Onyx suggests: 1) Write good posts, 2) Encourage good posts, 3) Ignore the noise. The idea of simply not replying to noise posts is liked by BongPig and others.
Maintain a Table of Contents/Index/FAQ for each forum to facillitate finding stuff in the archives. This idea is popular with just about everybody, we just need someone to do once the archives have grown.
Worthless threads should be deleted, not locked. If the archives a littered with worthless posts then searching is less useful.
I think a wiki (I'm sorry if this is starting to sound like noise) could help reduce the noise here and improve the quality of the posts. A wiki can be viewed as a bulletin board where anyone can edit any post. Imagine that, (Dan), having 200 editor to fix your spelling mistakes :).
Old threads could be reposted after editing (summarized, cleaned-up). Then the old thread could be deleted.
Perhaps people should get into the habit of deleting any of their own posts that are no longer relevant. For example, if you respond to a post with 'the url you posted is broke' and that url gets fixed, you can delete your response instead of contining a conversation about broken urls.
Paid Subs might filter out anyone not serious about the indie game business. Quite a few members are in favor of a modest annual subscription. A few aren't.
Forced Lurking - New members are forced to lurk for a few weeks, in which time they can learn from the archives and make better quality posts when they do start posting. Forced lurking would also put a stop to drive-by marketteers.
I'd be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on what they think constitutes 'noise'.

[Reactor]

The problem with killing all the 'noise' is that you kill a lot of the community aspect of this board along with it. You can't expect everyone to know what has been said before, or to be able to judge with perfect accuracy if their post is classed as noise or not. Also, just because something has been discussed before doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed again, because as we all know, people and things change over time. Do you guys honestly expect to encourage new indie developers by putting a price on posting, or by locking their threads every time someone thinks it isn't a groundbreaking new topic? What if I guy doesn't know what to ask, but he's the greatest and nicest indie developer in the world? You can't just ban him from posting. That'd be a loss to everyone!

People will always post lame topics- it's part of the process of coming to a better understanding of topics that have no clear-cut 'written in stone' answer. And, to be honest, I find it pretty strange people think the majority of indie development is a bunch of 'do this' and 'do that' statements that could be archived in a wikipedia. Some things can, yes, but you won't eliminate the need for people to probe for a fuller understanding of something, by posting imperfect questions.

Anyway, I like the 'vote for the thread', idea. That way, someone can search for popular threads in amongst the noise, and even unpopular threads can be deleted after some period of time.

[Reactor]

Also, I agree with Wayward that there really isn't much 'noise' on this forum at all.

[Linusson]

Couldn't we have a rule, that when people want some feedback, the game must be in at least beta stage, it's quite annoying when people want some feedback on an early demo, or just some feedback on some graphic that they don't even have a game for, or even worse, when they want feedback on an idea.

[princec]

Another noise post from princec:

- Ditch Game Dev & Technical, there's plenty of better places to research trivial programming problems and argue about how l33t Java is

- I know it's a lot of work but a sticky FAQ at the top of each forum would be handy. You could start with a set of links to Dexterity's articles in the Indie Business forum.

- Some posts are cameraderie, banter, jokes, and silly. There's no need to be all gesthapo on them. They build the community, cement friendships, and keep the tone light. The real problem is when threads wander off topic, or worse, never had a useful topic in the first place.

- I'm still in favour of paid subs to allow posting. Just $20 a year. A very effective filter for serious indie business.

Cas :)

[Jack Norton]

Also, I agree with Wayward that there really isn't much 'noise' on this forum at all.

I bet, is online just since 1 week! :) but I remember lot of noise posts lately on dexterity forums. A quite good example is that one:

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=92

[Chris Evans]

I also would like for someone (preferably a mod) to exactly define the "noise". It seems everybody has their own definition and it's hard to come up with a solution when the problem isn't clearly defined.

I pretty much agree with Reactor. If you kill all the noise, you basically kill the growth of the community. With the exception of the people who actually setup the board, everybody here was a newbie at some point. I'm sure at some point everyone while they were a newbie asked a stupid or redundant question. How would you feel if you got instantly chastised or worse, banned? Most likely you would leave bitterly and this forum would get a reputation for having elitist pricks, instead of being a great resource for aspiring indies.

I also dislike the idea of making the forum read-only to newbies, so only "old members" can post. That set of rules assumes that just because someone is a newbie to this forum, it means they are a newbie to being an Indie. That's simply not the case.

Look, I don't want to be rude, but it annoys me to see the moderators complaining about "noise" and they haven't even done the basic things such as posting forum rules, guidelines, or a faq. How on earth is a newbie suppose to know what is acceptable and what is not? We might as well close the registration because a newbie is bound to step on someone's toes if no rules or faq is posted. With our archive basically back to square one, it only makes matters worse.

I've said this before, but I really liked the FAQ Gilzu posted in the Indie Life board on the old forum. I think every sub-forum here should have a similar FAQ. If after having a FAQ, there are still substantial "noise" problems, then it may be time to entertain more drastic measures.

I've participated in a lot of message boards over the years and I've seen this situation countless times. It always happens when a message board and community grows. The forums that spiraled downwards were often too concerned with "satisfying" the old members. Yet the old members didn't contribute anything and instead just complained until they no longer posted. Whereas in the successful forums, the old members remained active and helpful, and steered the discussion to more productive topics by being an example to newbies.

So yes I understand that excessive noise can scare away older members, however the best way to preserve the quality of the forum and the overall goodwill is not to scare away newbies or treat them like idiots. But instead give them some direction (via a FAQ) and be a good example by posting quality topics yourself.

I guess it all depends on what the purpose of this forum is. Is it only a place for people who are already successful Indies? If so, kick out 95% of us and we'll just read the conversations of a chosen few. However, if this is a place where aspiring and professional Indies alike come together (which seems the way SteveP intended it to be), then the community should remain open for all who share a common interest, which is the Indie lifestyle.

[Gmicek]

My position is that there wasn't a lot of noise on the Dexterity forums. Sure, there was more than a lot of forums, but the whole idea behind the forum (in my mind at least) was for people to brainstorm with, criticize, and support one another. By its very nature the forum will lead to a lot of newbie type posts, and isn't that the point? You're going to have a lot of people asking what the 'old timers' feel are dumb questions, but move along, it's not like there was ever more than a page worth of topics with new posts in them on any given day. Shutting down threads a couple hours after they've started because someone proclaims that everything that can be said on the subject has been said is an insult to the maturity of the users. In the thread cited above, for example, yeah, the art sucked, but it wasn't even there long enough for people to give meaningful feedback. I didn't see it devolving into personal attacks, just some very honest criticism that could have become more detailed.

The closure of threads that have not become flame wars is an example of moderators over stepping their authority, in my opinion. When i post something about DIY I expect people to lay it in to me and tell me all the things that are bad, why would I want someone to blow smoke and tell me that it's better than it actually is?

Anyway, now that I've rambled on a bit.... All this talk of how to keep things in line with what people feel is an acceptable level of noise after the forum has only been up a few days, and having threads closed (counting the final days of Dexterity as well) for seemingly inane reasons is doing a great job of driving me, and other's i'm sure, away. With the way things are going I doubt I'm going to last a week. And those that are left can happily police threads to their hearts content while watching the forum evolve from a great resource for people wanting help to a place for experienced guys to stomp around and the newbies to lurk and walk on eggshells. YAY!

[Wayward]

I bet [not much noise], is online just since 1 week! :) but I remember lot of noise posts lately on dexterity forums.I was including Dexterity too, but the fine example of a terrible post you provided reminded me of one or two others that were bad enough to get closed. I forgot to include Unwelcome Tradesmen and Flame Trolls on my 'list of noises' above. Yes, there is noise. I'm just not sure whether it's enough to worry about.

PrinceC suggests ditching 'Game Dev & Technical'. I find myself (uneasily) agreeing with this, despite how contraversial it sounds.

Chris, great post. In my experience it takes next to no time for a newbie to get up to speed and learn the flavour of this forum. Surely we can forgive one or two lame posts.

I get the feeling the mods fear that one day the forum will be overwhelmed by newbies and become totally useless. I've personally only seen this happen to one board. Maybe we should only worry about the problem if and when it happens.

[Rod Hyde]

Various things are being considered already...Out of interest, what is under consideration?

--- Rod

[BongPig]

I guess we need to decide what we consider noise before moving on.

Any post that is in anyway interesting to the current community cant be considered noise, regardless of topic.

In my ( not very extensive ) experience with the Dex forums, nearly all of the un-interesting posts came from people who havent actually got thier games/business off the ground yet.
We need to ask, are we as a community interested in these people at all?

Is the main point of this forum for existing devs to discuss the ins and outs of our buisiness, or as a good starting point for people who want/plan to become indies to get help?

Its a tricky one. To specialise in trading devs only would certainly remove alot of the noise, but also alot of the posts full stop.

[BantamCityGames]

If this post was still over at Dexterity I would say to limit new members from posting until they've been a member for a certain period of time (this would cut down on the New Release posts from members that only signed up for that purpose). Seeing as how we are ALL new to THIS forum however, that obviously wouldn't work. With that being said, I would opt for a paid listing in the range of 20 bucks a year or so. This, without a doubt, will cut the amount of noise posts.

[princec]

Paid subs, dammit! The perfect seriousness filter. And all the money can go towards paying for all the resources we use.

Cas :)

[BongPig]

The perfect seriousness filter indeed.

Well... ive thought about it for 47 seconds, and that sounds like a good idea really.
I would subscibe for sure.

[stan]

IMO there wasn't much noise on the Dexterity forums, and there isn't much here either.

I see people complaining when for me THEY are the ones who often post noise... Weird.

[Reactor]

Paid subs would only do one thing- it'd scare away people who aren't serious. Is that what this indie community wants? By the impression of a number of "Indies versus the big-boys" and "Let's set up an indie news site" posts, I thought the idea was to make indie development as accessible and well known as possible- not to turn it into an elitist club. I actually think that's what some people on here want, like they want some sort of 'professional' title to their name. Guys, if you want to pay money, make a nice donation to the guys behind this forum. There's no need to form an 'indie upper class' by doing so.

Now I think about it, I don't know what annoys me more- the small amounts of 'noise' on this forum, or the whining about it. I've seen people whine about the most silly things-- the titles aren't descriptive enough, the posts don't directly make a point, people making jokes, people posting about alpha versions... the list is endless! Guys, get some thicker internet skin for goodness sakes! These are not big things to worry about!

Ideas for more controlled posting is good, but from where I stand, the only reason for a paid subscription (or anything else so extreme) is because people are whining about more than they really should. If you guys want to see some real noise I'll take you to the gaming forum I spend most of my time on. This place is glorious compared to there, and yet, no one complains about the noise at all. They just get on with it.

[Bluecat]

So far the signal to noise ratio has been pretty high. I've seen a couple of posts that have got out of hand and that's it. One was a pretty obvious troll, and since the thread was locked we haven't heard anymore from him. I think that maybe this idea of reducing noise is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to that post in particular.

Paid subs are an interesting idea, and I would definitely subscribe, but if it was simply to be a seriousness filter an annual sub is not necessary. A one off fee would work just as well. And Reactor is correct, it will scare off the very people we are hoping to attract.

I vote to let it alone for the time being. Moderation should do, and if things get out of hand, then look at other options.

Let's wait and see what happens.

[ggambett]

I agree with Jack Norton and BongPig. For me, the key is
In my ( not very extensive ) experience with the Dex forums, nearly all of the un-interesting posts came from people who havent actually got thier games/business off the ground yet.
We need to ask, are we as a community interested in these people at all?
Newbies should lurk for some months - just reading the huge amount of information already posted, the kind of discussions that take place, and even the kind of questions and threads that are acceptable would accomplish two things :

1) People who aren't serious won't be around when their "forced lurking mode" ends; they'll probably lose interest in making games anyway.

2) People who do stay until they can post will have a much better sense of what's "not noise", and much of the potentially repeated questions already answered

I know I started lurking the forums for a while, one of my first posts (if not my first one) was about feedback for a beta, and all in all I think I don't make too much noise :)

[oNyx]

Threads like these alienate more than 80% of the community. Am I a part of the core? Are my posts considered as "noise"? You can't be really sure about these questions. Either way it will drive the group in different directions.

Some insight:
http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

I prefer subtle changes without a steering force behind it. It's just more "healthy" to use this approach and it's easy: 1. write posts you consider as good and or useful, 2. encourage others and 3. completely ignore whatever you consider as noise. If the leading individuals (those who are respected) do that, the others will follow. It's really that simple.

---

The techical board is/was useful to some extend... on a conceptual level. Specific coding questions are of course somewhat off topic and should be posted in specialized forums.

I also agree that a Wiki and/or a FAQ would reduce the amount of redundant threads.

[Bluecat]

I agree with Jack Norton and BongPig. For me, the key is

Newbies should lurk for some months - just reading the huge amount of information already posted, the kind of discussions that take place, and even the kind of questions and threads that are acceptable would accomplish two things :

1) People who aren't serious won't be around when their "forced lurking mode" ends; they'll probably lose interest in making games anyway.

2) People who do stay until they can post will have a much better sense of what's "not noise", and much of the potentially repeated questions already answered

I know I started lurking the forums for a while, one of my first posts (if not my first one) was about feedback for a beta, and all in all I think I don't make too much noise :)

I'm pretty new to the forums (a couple of months at Dexterity), and I haven't released a game yet.

I hope my posts aren't being considered as noise.

[elund]

This topic was brought up at Dexterity maybe a year ago, and my position hasn't really changed since then. Paid subscriptions are a great noise filter, and it generates revenue for the board maintainers to pay for hardware and board-related activities. Frankly, I would have no problem paying for the privilege of posting, letting users read most forums for free. But I would like to have at least one forum that was private to paying users, where delicate matters could be discussed. On the other hand, I don't think the signal to noise ratio on Dexterity was really all that bad. Certainly it had degraded over time, but from what I saw it was still better than most other forums I've visited. In any case, the only way to tell what's best is test, test, test. ;)

[ggambett]

I'm pretty new to the forums (a couple of months at Dexterity), and I haven't released a game yet.
I hope my posts aren't being considered as noise.
I know generalization is almost always unfair to someone... I don't say every relatively new member or everyone who hasn't released a game isn't serious - as BongPig said, most of the "noise" posts come from "new" people.

[svero]

> Personally, I think the noise levels here are very low

The signal to noise ration is still good. But we're being proactive. We see it getting worse and there's no reason it won't continue to get worse unless things change.

> Out of interest, what is under consideration?

As for our ideas I left them on purpose to see what other people came up with on their own.

> I guess we need to decide what we consider noise before moving on.

I think the goal of these forums should primarily be for Indie game developers to share ideas and help promote our businesses. I believe it should be a site for developers already selling games or closing in on their first serious title.

I don't think it's elitest to nudge out newbies because in my view this isn't really a site about how to program, or how to make a game. There are plenty of good books on that topic. I see it more as leaning towards an indie developer trade organization. And in the end the forums will be more valuable to those new developers that do make the leap and publish their first game.

I also would not classify banter/jokes/etc... as noise. That's part of the community and I have no problem with that in general. The goal here isn't to turn the forums into an encyclopedia or a site where you can't post a joke or discuss something not related to game business in the chat section.

[Addictive 247]

I'm all for paid subscriptions but I don't think it's needed yet.
In my opinion there is hardly any "noise" on this or the Dexterity forums. I would suggest that the amount of "noise" is looked at every so often and if it gets out of hand then bring in the paid subs.

[BongPig]

Are we any closer to an answer? I dont quite know.

Bluecat, sorry for being so general. That wasnt my aim.
If a newbie comes along and posts fresh new questions, theres no way me or anybody is going to attack him simply for being new! Heaven forbid I ever become like that.
Its the in-ability to use search that im sure gets to all of us from time to time.

However, after a slap in my face and a cold shower, I realise im being a bit sad really.
oNyx said it all. If we dont answer any silly posts ( including to flame them for not using search! ) then that would set the tone.
As long as each post is titled properly, its pretty easy to completely ignore posts that dont interest the individual.

So, were all responsible for the levels of noise we read, because we can choose not to read it.
Very simple, but requires the regulars to show some restraint from time to time to keep peace.

Otherwise, whos got the guts to draw a defining line in the sand labled, 'here begins the noise'?

[Diodor Bitan]

I disagree with the payed subscription idea. Two thirds of the people will go away outright and half of the remaining third will go away because of the sudden silence. You'll miss the noise I tell you :)

Original post by princec
- Ditch Game Dev & Technical, there's plenty of better places to research trivial programming problems and argue about how l33t Java is

The Indie Business forum? GD&Technical, and the Indie Life forums themselves act as noise filters. In fact, perhaps a more relaxed "Noise" forum could help - anything too trivial would be moved there.

[Reactor]

oNyx, you're right on the money with those points, imo.


"I think the goal of these forums should primarily be for Indie game developers to share ideas and help promote our businesses."

Maybe people don't understand that's the point of these forums. I know I didn't, when I first arrived. I thought it was a place for everything indie related, that hadn't been covered in the Dexterity developer articles.

"I believe it should be a site for developers already selling games or closing in on their first serious title." and "I see it more as leaning towards an indie developer trade organization."

If that's what this forum really is here for, then that should be stuck up in neon lighting somewhere. If you want to cull newbies, cull them. Or at least, put aside a small forum for newbie discussions. The problem I see, based on your comments svero, is that people misunderstand the point of this place. Now that Steve no longer has say about what the forum is around for, you guys need to make a rock-solid decision so people like myself can either stick around, or take off somewhere else.

[Hamumu]

I really liked what Reactor and Onyx had to say. If the whole heart of being an indie is that a common man can take on the big boys and, well maybe not win, but survive, then excluding people based on money is contrary. Excluding based on them being obnoxious is lovely though.

As someone who has a forum that is 99% noise, I haven't seen a pixel of noise on this one by my standards. Unless the mods are deleting things like crazy, so I'm just not seeing it (which isn't true is it? I thought the mods on dex only had locking power), then I'd say what on earth are you worrying about? The dex forums never once reached any appreciable level of noise that I saw. There were hardly even any flamewars (all of which arose from legitimate discussion and all of which included 'serious' forum members almost exclusively - no paid sub is going to prevent that!).

I guess the question is, what is noise? If a newbie posts "I have a cool new game idea, how can I sell it to a publisher?", is that really noise? Why? It's a legitimate, but very stupid, question. It's perfectly on topic and in an effort to seek knowledge. Having a FAQ available to shut such things down in one post would be nice. I think enforced lurking (just a week, I'd say) would do the trick nicely, because it'd almost force people to search to see if their question is answered before they post, which solves the fundamental problem with newbie posts. Sure, they won't all do it, but the ones that won't do it are also likely to find a shiny object before their week is up and forget all about the internet.

Throughout the entire life cycle of the dex forums, I perused at least daily, and clicked "Show New Posts", and clicked on at least half the topics every day. I don't have any other place online where I find things of interest at that rate.

So I say down with paid subs, and I am all for short-term lurking requirements, and lastly, I don't actually know what the fuss is about. Does someone have an example of this noise? Other than my first post on these new forums... sorry about that!

[ggambett]

Does someone have an example of this noise?
Sure! http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=92

[Nemesis]

I think it would be helpful to have 1 sticky thread (as in Dex) in every forum category containing a set of rules, what kind of posts are relevant, newbie FAQ's etc.

Hopefully this will cut down on the more basic "I want to write a game" type of posts and reduce occurences of posts going out of scope of the original thread and so on.

[svero]

@hamumu

>Unless the mods are deleting things like crazy, so I'm just not seeing it
>(which isn't true is it? I thought the mods on dex only had locking power),

There have been some deletes. We could delete and edit if we wanted over at dex as well.

>I guess the question is, what is noise? If a newbie posts "I have a cool new
>game idea, how can I sell it to a publisher?", is that really noise? Why? It's
>a legitimate, but very stupid, question.

I suppose it depends on your view of what the forums are. Personally I would like to see them head in the general direction of an indie trade organization. An ASP for indies as it were. With that in mind I think that it should in fact be a place limited to people who trade as indies and not to every beginner or kid who has a question. Maybe there's a place for that, but I didn't really think this would be it. Or maybe it could be handled differently by setting up a beginners questions section or something of that nature.

I'm not really so much against helping new people out. I'm always happy to answer questions and so on but I'd like to keep other people who have experience coming by and reading and responding on a regular basis. As the number of these beginner posts grows (and it has grown) the number of serious developers who will come by shrinks. When you have a lot of posts like "hey i have a neat idea..." many of the people who are more serious about their business will just fade away and stop posting because they can't be bothered to swim through all the junk to read the few good posts. You might not mind going through every day, but not everyone has Sol Hunt all finished up and a beta waiting in svero's inbox and lots of time to surf.

I'm not really in favor of paid subscription or paid posts as a seriousness filter though because I think it will filter out people who are serious but who aren't enthusiastic enough about forums. Not everyone who posts ocassionally is going to want to pay to post. That's especially true if someone is just dropping by to answer a question about their company or site. Like someone from download.com for instance. I wouldn't want to alienate those people who have something good to ad but only ocassionally.

@bongpig

>Otherwise, whos got the guts to draw a defining line in the sand
>labled, 'here begins the noise'?

There will be a change made to address this before it becomes a problem. So in a sense yes a line will be drawn.

[GameStudioD]

Eh, programmers...

Complaining about noise, new people, spam and off topic discussion is just going to drive people away from this forum. A community includes peolpe, not excludes them. New ideas and new ways of thinking should be embraced, not deleted.

Right now I am working hard on creating my business and building my first complete, marketable game. I found a lot of information and inspiration at the Dexterity Forums. I talked with other game developers that were going through or have gone through the same problems I am facing. I gathered a lot of information on what to do with the game when it is done. etc. etc. etc. I really dont want to see that support go away for future developers because of elitist views.

I really believe this forum needs more non-game developers and non-programmers (I am suggesting a marketting discussion area or a 'what do gamers think' area, hint, hint). There are some people here that need to talk with real people and real gamers. I sense a very big disconnect between the 'programmers' and their customers. I see it in website design, game design and throughout many discussions here. But, that is a rant for another time...

[Jim Buck]

I'm with others on this thread in thinking that the noise on here isn't high at all. Same on Dexterity. Though admittedly, I wasn't here for the whole time it existed (Dexterity, I mean), so it may have been zero noise earlier. But I'm ok with what's here now if it means total freedom.

Also, others metioned repeating of certain questions to be "noise". I completely disagree. Everything in the indie world is contantly changing. A question asked even 1 month ago will garner different answers if asked today. I, for one, am totally cool with seeing the same questions as I will be able to read more updated and current answers. (Good examples of this are threads about "what's the best affiliate?", "what's the best way of selling - reg code or download?", etc.. even "what's the best engine to use?" will get useful new information each time it's asked.)

I would suggest keeping it as is until it gets really bad rather than being proactive.

[Wayward]

GameStudioD, your suggestion that we attract a wider audience that includes marketing, web designers, and especially players interests me. It frightens me a bit too because it's quite a big change, but the idea of mingling with our players appeals to me. A lot of indies already host their own forums for this purpose. Of course, we sometimes discuss matters publicly here that we wouldn't want our customers to read.

[Hamumu]

I knew that locked topic would be brought up as an example of noise... so can someone explain why it's noise? This one really baffles me. Looks like someone made what they thought was a serious offer towards indies, in the indie business forum, then people complained about the website, to which the original author explicitly said "okay, what other suggestions do you have?", and a bunch of people added suggestions (not just to the website but to the business itself. Then it got locked. I actually don't even know why it's locked! I think it's something worthy of more discussion, and I don't see a single bit of noise in it. I don't want to turn into a certain type of element that's always bucking the majority, but if that's noise, you're cutting out a lot of legitimate talk! Why is it noise to discuss an indie publisher's website?

I've been to the ASP forums on many occasions... THAT is full of noise! Pointless garbage abounds, and the same questions are asked time after time (haven't visited in probably a year, so that may have changed, but I seriously doubt it). Guess what, you get a lot of people in one place, you get stuff you may not be interested to read, because they all have different things to discuss, and more importantly, you get repeated questions and more. You simply CANNOT grow a community to a large size, which is what everyone here is talking about, and keep it from being filled with more newbie than oldbie posts. It's just a fact that those who are new will have more to say and be more eager and have questions they want to learn about. And those who have been around will drift away. Most people sign up to a forum like this *because* they have a question or comment! If you really want a trade organization, go invite-only (or enforced rules on who can join) and handpick those who you think are really serious. Otherwise, you WILL be inundated with newbies. Even if you charge $100 a year. We've seen it in action at the ASP.

In reference to not everybody having time to visit every day, I want to clarify what I meant by my every day visit: I meant that there's so little noise that even though I visit often, I always find tons of things to read, and very few things to ignore. So if someone visits less often, they'll find far more still! Truly, I just DON'T see the noise! If it's being deleted, okay, then it's entirely possible there's a noise problem, but it doesn't sound like much gets deleted from how svero described it.

I look forward to seeing this line in the sand, because to me this is all an extreme mystery. I obviously just don't know what the word noise means in forum terms. In fact... could someone truly elaborate in very clear terms exactly the problem we are facing? Some of it's rather unknown to those of us who aren't mods. I think that might be a step forward and some common ground between the inclusionistas and exclusionistas.

PS - Every time I post one of these giant diatribes, by the time I have it written, more really good thoughts have been posted, so let me add I second Jim Buck and GameStudioD on these issues.

[princec]

Repeating threads aren't noise. And FAQs go out of date faster than milk that's left out of the fridge. And I once had a rant on JGO about people who respond with a google link instead of bothering to reply.

Cas :)

[Wayward]

I once had a rant on JGO about people who respond with a google link instead of bothering to reply.
Try Google (http://www.google.com/) for more on this. :)

Yes, it's very bad manners. I hate that one too.

</banter>

[Bluecat]

ggambett and BongPig.

I appreciate that you were just generalising and that no offence was meant. I hope that's not how I sounded, I've been around long enough to develop a pretty thick skin... or is that a pretty thick head? I can never remember. ;)

In the end, I reckon that all we need here is some sensible moderation by the mods, and a little wisdom shown by the resident indies, and we shouldn't have too many problems with noise.

[Reactor]

I'd just like to make a comment that a few of the previous posts should be considered as noise. j/k :)

Nice comments, Hamumu

[Wayward]

Perhaps a poll on 'noise-to-worry' levels is needed. Can this thread be converted into a poll to save us creating another very similar thread?

[Dan MacDonald]

I look forward to seeing this line in the sand, because to me this is all an extreme mystery. I obviously just don't know what the word noise means in forum terms. In fact... could someone truly elaborate in very clear terms exactly the problem we are facing?


You are correct Ham, it's difficult to draw a "line in the sand" for what is "noise" and what isn't. A large determinant in drawing that line is determining what the target audience is. For instance, to draw an extreme example, if someone started asking questions about some weird engine knock they were hearing when their car was going up hills, that would probably be considered noise. But on a forum dedicated to auto mechanics or maybe that particular brand of car, it would be right on topic. Visa versa could be said as well, if one of us went to that forum as asked about sales numbers of various indie games.

The problem we face here is one of shades of gray. These forums cater to indie developers. When the forums first started out they were mainly indie business forums frequented by people with published titles, or very serious indies who's main priority was becoming a full time indie developer. Since then the forums have grown to include novice programmers, skilled hobbyist programmers, and of course the requisite amount of wanna-be's.

Most of the threads, like the one you cite, would be noise to the old audience of these forums. With regards to the thread you mention, the poster obviously had a LOT to learn about the downloadable games business, and especially publishing in it. This is one of those debates that people feel very strongly about one way or the other.

Basically there are two camps, forget about the old, you can't preserve it, let's move forward and just accept that things will be more about teaching newbies and learning from experienced members. The other camp is, what we had before was valuable, it set it apart from every other community that has allowed itself to be dragged down to the lowest common denominator.

The fact is, it is much harder to preserved the old "quality" then it is to just let inexperienced members who post too much to dictate the tone / quality of the forums.

When I moderate threads, I personally lean a little to the side of trying to preserve the audience of the old forums. However there is only so much wiggle room before people generally start getting ticked off, and accusing the mods of being elitist bastards. There’s only so much you can do.

One thing I think might be interesting to try, Is setting up a private forum here, for “professional” indies. A “professional” indie would be someone with a finished game/app and has published it on some site. I know indie’s who fall into this category have argued the merits of such a private forum in the past. On the Dexterity forums, they stated that they would be more willing to post numbers and business practices if they knew it was a secure environment.

One benefit of having such a forum here would mean the more experienced Indies’ who have stop posting as of late would be visiting the forums a little more often, including the public forums that we now enjoy.

[ggambett]

One thing I think might be interesting to try, Is setting up a private forum here, for “professional” indies. [...] that they would be more willing to post numbers and business practices
And more willing to post anti-piracy measures :) No complaints about "hey you posted a link to a warez site"

[Wayward]

One of the great things about the Dexterity forums were their diversity. SteveP in particular posted on a wide range of topics, some not related to the indie business at all, but interesting and useful nonetheless. I recall buying a blender after reading a thread about food.

The best way to get a diversity of posts it to get a diversity of posters. Perhaps we should actually be encouraging and educating newbies and thickies to grow into valuable members of our community. Without a constant influx of new blood this board is sure to wither and die.

The appreciate the mods want to proactively keep these boards as good as they are. I just worry that the 'control approach' excludes diversity.

I considered starting a 'Pets cure cabin fever' thread but I've got all self-conscious about this noise business. It's me isn't it? I'm the noise.

[svero]

@Hamumu - I don't see what the problem is having a forum for people like us to discuss the issues that affect us and our businesses, while not having it have to be a forum for every kid that likes his sony playstation and had a nifty idea once. There's probably a happier medium than "free for all and slowly degrading". By doing something to encourage posts by people who are serious about game development and discourage posts by people who aren't I believe we will be increasing the value of the forums for everyone including new people that are just starting out.

The ASP forums are a good example of a forum that was once useful and no longer is. Maybe because no serious steps were taken to ensure a level of quality? My point with regards to saying I wanted to be more of a trade organization is that I want the forums to be focused more on topics of interest to indie developers. People making and selling games.

As someone who makes games you're no doubt aware how often you get an "idea" man coming around to get your help on the little details like art, programming, and gameplay, for their great game. We all get that. I really believe that in the end, if you allow free reign to those kinds of people, they will chase away the real indies leaving us only with the 2nd group. And that's not good for us OR the new people who are serious about making games and starting a business.

[Dan MacDonald]

I considered starting a 'Pets cure cabin fever' thread but I've got all self-conscious about this noise business. It's me isn't it? I'm the noise.


:rolleyes:

When I post, I try to make sure that I am adding something that is relevant to other indies, weather it's an idea that I've been thinking over for a while, or something interesting I learned from talking to other Indie's that I don't think everyone knows.

While this isn't how I moderate, personally I would prefer if the "community" type chit chat, joke making, fun poll posting, would really just be left for another forum or instant messaging. These forums support adding your various Instant Messaging details and I would encourage people to get linked up with other indies outside of these forums and do the chit chat there. Again, this isn't a rule for the forum, because it really isn't practically enforceable, but I think it would contribute to the forums being a better "Resource" overall.

There aren’t any other sites out there where you can get good information about indie development, at least not like what was here and on dex. There are a million sites for chit-chat with other developers though...

[Hamumu]

I for one would very much enjoy a private arena, and would be very open to sharing extensive information in such a place. The best talks I have are with the indies who are going places. I can even soak up ideas without having to ask stupid questions, it's nice (usually though, I CHOOSE to ask stupid questions, to maintain my classic Hamumu style). I'd vastly prefer that to visit than these forums for myself if I had to pick one. But PLEASE don't turn these forums into that. Creating it additionally is wonderful, and I want to be in on that ASAP, but this forum is an open resource and a way for indies to congregate. There's a lot of power in that, and in the free flow of information. When I hear of on-topic posts by people who have a lot to learn being called noise, I worry just how free that flow is. By all means, chop out what actually doesn't belong, and if necessary, seek steps to keep it out, but if you don't allow people-who-have-a-lot-to-learn to ... learn, then the species of People Who Have Learned A Lot will eventually die out! How's that for a sentence?

My cat agrees: vbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

So sign me up for the Top Secret Grand Collusion Uber Indie No Homers Club right away! That's something I have great interest in.

(but it's worth noting that Dan MacDonald is ineligible for membership)

[Chris Evans]

I think we really need a mission statement for these forums.

But I agree with Wayward. In the old Dex board, it wasn't JUST about business. The Indie Life and General Chat forums discussed a variety of topics, many of which SteveP started himself. That's why I said earlier I thought these forums were for people who shared a common interest in the whole Indie lifestyle. Not just to discuss how to increase their Adwords CR.

[svero]

(but it's worth noting that Dan MacDonald is ineligible for membership)

Actually his game little soldiers will be out in a few days so we can probably cut him some slack...

[Hamumu]

@Hamumu - I don't see what the problem is having a forum for people like us to discuss the issues that affect us and our businesses, while not having it have to be a forum for every kid that likes his sony playstation and had a nifty idea once. There's probably a happier medium than "free for all and slowly degrading". By doing something to encourage posts by people who are serious about game development and discourage posts by people who aren't I believe we will be increasing the value of the forums for everyone including new people that are just starting out..

But that's been my contention from the beginning... there was no degrading! I was at dex from beginning to end, and I never saw anything wrong with it at all! There were a FEW posts of "I have an idea!", and frankly, those are amusing to me. But the fact is they were extremely rare. It had less noise than a vinyl record, and people STILL listen to those. And by the way, I definitely agree that having a forum for good talk is great - I want what Dan said. There's a real danger of a boy's club mentality overall in this sort of thing that has to be watched out for. By having a private forum, you need not watch out for it - you have a boy's club! But outside the club, that's a big concern, and I noticed some of it going on on dex as well, without going into specifics. [ed. note: no gender bias intended]

As someone who makes games you're no doubt aware how often you get an "idea" man coming around to get your help on the little details like art, programming, and gameplay, for their great game. We all get that. I really believe that in the end, if you allow free reign to those kinds of people, they will chase away the real indies leaving us only with the 2nd group. And that's not good for us OR the new people who are serious about making games and starting a business.

I agree - it should be disallowed for people to post those "I have an idea!" posts. Those aren't good (even though I enjoy them). But I am against paid subs or anything that pushes away newbies in general. Just kick them in the ass with some rules, moderate them, ban them, delete them, and that's thatl (I do all that by the dozen daily on my own forum). I think the enforced lurking rule would accomplish this to an admirable degree. But again, my more prominent issue is why are we even discussing it? Things are peachy! We are not spiraling into a black pit of despair! Tom Ridge is lying to you! The dex forums never went downhill... that's my take on the matter. The mythical Golden Age Of Dexterity was just the short period when the only people who knew about it were an elite few, and that's just a recipe for inbreeding.

[Nemesis]

I'll risk repeating .. but wouldn't a sticky thread with some basic rules help out a lot? For instance, it could have a note asking users to search the threads for any questsions.

Some basic articles and faqs, perhaps implemented as locked threads would help a lot too.

This would give newbies (I being one) the opportunity to learn from knowledge commonly established by the veterans while at the same time participate as the newbies gain experiences.

After all, I think we all started out as newbies right?

[Mark Fassett]

As I think about it, I have to agree with Hamumu. When you compare it to the miasma that is gamedev.net, these forums just don't compare. And that's why I come here. The suggestion about creating a private "only those who've got a game for sale" forum in addition to the public forums sounds like a great plan to me.

[Gilzu]

I've said this before, but I really liked the FAQ Gilzu posted in the Indie Life board on the old forum. I think every sub-forum here should have a similar FAQ. If after having a FAQ, there are still substantial "noise" problems, then it may be time to entertain more drastic measures.

umm, thanks... :o

I've read all of the forum member's comments presented both here, the old forums and from the other mods and I believe we will come up with a new set of FAQs for these forums.

[Wayward]

...personally I would prefer if the "community" type chit chat, joke making, fun poll posting, would really just be left for another forum...
Crikey!

:eek:

[GameStudioD]

Crikey!

:eek:

I couldnt have said it better myself.

[Gmicek]

((Edited out. Someone else made the same point))

[Dan MacDonald]

Well some chit-chat in the "General Chat" forum isn't too bad I suppose. But as I said, that’s just my personal option. Not one that's shared by all the admin/mods and obviously members of this forum. You won't see me taking any actions that crush the community either, because it's kind of too late for that, the forums used to be almost purely a resource, with each poster adding insights from their own indie businesses or experience. Those days are no longer, and the fact is, today it is more of a community with a lot more of the things that you associate with community, chit chat, jokes, sarcastic threads etc.

What I would like to try to do is provide some options for more "Resource" like features at these forums, while preserving the "community" elements that have begun to spring up.

I have to say though, one of the worst things about the "Community" perspective, is for some reason, whenever a community breaks out, people start to compete for post count. Somehow post count is like a form of notoriety, people will post just about any useless one line comment to get their post count up and it generally contributes to a lot of "noise" (As it's quite difficult to say anything valuable in one line, other then express an emotional response or sarcastic comment).

One thing I would like to be a little clearer on, even when the forums were more "Resource" oriented there still was a community. It just didn’t include things like "lol", "haha yeah", or "me too" after someone posted. Members only posted when they had something legitimate to say. Now it seems, people come here to "hang out" and "interact" with their friends. It's a different purpose then what once was, and I honestly feel it makes these forums less professional and more like a bunch of people "just hanging out".

[BantamCityGames]

After reading further points I have altered my position a bit. I agree with Dan on starting a "Professional Indie" section for only indies that have a published (self or otherwise) game.

With that being said, this also gave me another idea: What if the "published indies" had a Star or some other symbol next to their name on every thread/post. This would make reading the forums much easier for people serious about success. I don't know about everyone else, but when I read these forums (a couple times a day) I get a sense for who the professional (and successful) indies are (svero, retro64, etc) and I put more value on THEIR posts as opposed to the newbie thats trying to tell people what makes a successful game.

Steve, Dan: is there a way to implement such a system with the current software?

[Air]

Dan speaks true. It is the inherent difference between productivity-oriented people and socially-oriented people. Productive people feel that making things is the key to long-term success and reputation. They feel the things they do and the value of their words are the roots of their reputation. Social people believe in marketing themselves, making themselves heard and known, often not for any particular thing they've done or plan to do, but instead for the general act of "contributing to the community." Their concept of "productivity" is... well... saying stuff... writing posts... etc.

My fear is that since the forum is no longer directly associated with Dexterity (a reputable company), people will feel far more leinient in terms of their respect for the value of the forum or the wishes of the moderators. As long as the forum was part of Dexterity there was always this underlying tag of professionalizm that everyone felt-- that the forum was "pretty serious." Now it's just a forum and the whole "this is our community!" aspect will continue to grow even faster than before.

You could always make a members-only forum. By invite only! ;) There are still loads of by-invite-only organizations out there. It's not like taboo. Picking criteria like "only people who have made and/or published a game" is pretty much the same thing anyways. It might seem more fair than hand-picking members in one sense, but might seem a lot less fair in another. Pick your poison. :)

- Air

[Mike Boeh]

For now, we are going to do nothing, there are pros and cons to all the methods discussed so far. If noise becomes too much of a problem, we will re-visit the idea... So I am going to go ahead and close the thread...

-Mike