How Professional Does it Get?

[smellykitty]

I wanted to understand the scope of indie games better. I know that a lot of indie games are made as small projects, for free, and for pure fun!

But I wanted to understand the other side of indie games. How 'big' do indie games get? Are there indie games that have yielded a lot of profit? Are there indie games that can host real time online multi player games in a completely three dimensional world?

[papillon]

.... are you asking solely because "I have this GREAT idea for an MMORPG if I can just find some funding and a programmer and an artist and..."? :)

[PoV]

It all depends on your definition of "Indie". Game industry veterans running their own small self funded companies like to call themselves indie too. It's surprisingly common actually. And then there are some who've skipped the "work in the game industry for while" route, and have released successful games. Some people involved earn enough for some extra spending money, and others earn enough to make a living as their day job.

Its an incredible uphill battle though. Check out some sales stats at GameProducer.net (http://www.gameproducer.net) to get an idea.

As papillon points out, you need to be incredibly self reliant and capable to get anywhere this way. Also, understanding game size and scope in relation to team size, understanding what a consumer would play or buy and why, have strong instincts to know who's BS'ing, and how to use the forum's search and archives features. ;)

[Bad Sector]

How 'big' do indie games get?

As big as you can make them based on your own money and your own talents.

Are there indie games that have yielded a lot of profit?

A few "yes", many "probably", a lot "not" and most don't even know what "profit" is all about.

Are there indie games that can host real time online multi player games in a completely three dimensional world?

Yes (http://www.gametunnel.com/gamespace.php?id=343&tab=3), but that's one in *MANY* and it's by far one of the hardest things to create, especially if you're one man band (in which case it's almost impossible unless you have nothing else to do with your life for the next 3 or 4 years - add more to that if you don't know much about game development...).

[smellykitty]

.... are you asking solely because "I have this GREAT idea for an MMORPG if I can just find some funding and a programmer and an artist and..."? :)


an idea?? I should hope its a design document with all around concept artwork before I start claiming its next 'greatest' MMORPG, and even then, its just a design document with concept artwork right? ^_^

I was just curious if any indie teams have tackled this. I'm really interested in being the game designer and/or being apart of an indie team. I live near austin, so I dont think my location is bad at all either! But I didnt want to waste time on some game bible if the task is too big for any indie team to accomplish.

thanks for the comments

[electronicStar]

Oh yes... A design document. About a MMORPG. With lots of concept art.
It's not like we have already seen dozens of teenagers with "the next great idea" on paper and looking for the people to do the work for them, have we?
</sarcastic>

More seriously, doing a MMORPG is a lot of work and also a lot of expenses (paying for servers and maintenance and people to monitor the game).
The best an indie team can manage is a very limited scope RPG with a lot of corners cut (see runescape for example).
Otherwise IMO it's not the type of project that is possible for an indie company. What I mean is that it is the type of project that will require some investment to take off the ground (and don't forget that 90% of commercial MMOs can't survive).

Doing a MMORPG (or even a RPG) isn't something that an indie should undertake unless he already has some success and some knowledge of what he is doing, because it's the type of game that requires at least two years of devellopment, and that's not something you will manage if you're just starting with no funds.

[smellykitty]

I'm a college graduate. I seriously doubt a teenager can create an actual design document. An IDEA but not a design document. I dont understand why you think someone with a design document would expect all the hard work to be done by someone else? Or why a design document is easy to begin with? Either way, all of my concepts require team work - and thats how I want it to be. TEAM WORK. I have no intention of creating games alone.

I was asking about the limitations of the indie business *an MMORPG being a huge project* to help me understand if I should look for a local team or for a local internship at a big named company.

I dont want to be apart of the indie business if means making games as a past time. Thats why I wanted to know how professional does it get. I want to be apart of a team that isnt afraid to push themselves to the limit and takes what they do very seriously.

[PoV]

If you want to join a team, or get a job in the industry, that usually means you need something to offer. Code skills or Art skills. Jobs outside these fields are significantly harder to get. An organized indie team can't usually afford extras. That, and everybody wants to be a designer. That's usually why most people start one of the 2 career paths.

[Bad Sector]

A design document can be created by anyone (including a teenager - don't underestimate them) as long as (s)he knows what it takes to make one. And what it takes includes knowledge from almost every major field of a game's design (programming, art and sound, to name the most generic parts). If you don't know these, learn them (at least learn one good and learn the generic stuff for the others).

In an indie team, a game designer in the meaning of "i say how the game is done and the others do it" is useless. In an indie team the game designer does other jobs too, such as creating the game's levels and/or some of the art. An indie team is not made by 30 or 40 people, but it's usually 2-4. If one of them doesn't develop the game with a hands on approache, (s)he should be sure that (s)he isn't going to stay in the team for long.

[LilGames]

It can get as professional as you are capable of making it.

No experience? Then don't count on it happening. Everyone has to learn, and step their way up. "Indie" does not mean "inexperienced". It's not a way for new guys fresh out of college to side-step their way into a designer position and compete up there with experienced professionals. All "indie" means is "independant".

What really struck me was what you said in your second post: "I didnt want to waste time on some game bible if the task is too big for any indie team to accomplish."

If you don't believe in your idea and your skills, then yeah, I guess it would be a waste of time.

[MrQ]

The words "independent developer" simply means to me, a developer who operates independentley from the publishers.
Sometimes an Independent developer is bought by another company or a publisher which no longer makes them independent.
There are plenty examples of independent developers such as Lion head, id Software (or did activision buy them?), Epic games (unreal). It doesn't have to mean a casual game developer or hobyist developer.

But the slang word "indie" to me brings an image of a lone developer, or a newbie developer/hobbyist developer. People don't often refer to companies like id as indie's.

[smellykitty]

Pov: I'm already working on the art side, thanks. Working on my portfolio

Bad Sector: "In an indie team, a game designer in the meaning of "i say how the game is done and the others do it" is useless."

Where did I say that I believed this was the role of the game designer? Its really annoying that you are tossing ideas out there that I didnt say at all. I understand how roles intermingle at an indie level. Neither do I remember that being the role of the Game Designer with big companies. . .Game Designer is something I eventually want to become, becuase there are games I really want to create and I dont think anyone else can design my imagination. . . but me. Until there is someone else who can read my mind. . .!

LilGames: What kind of bullshit are you pulling on me? No Experience? Dont count on it happening? Then genius, tell me, how did anyone create video games? Like you said, everyone has to learn and step up. How is not that possible with indie games? As far as I can tell that is MORE possible with indie games since there is a greater demand for recources.

How does that reflect not believing in my ideas or skills? I want to have a realistic point of view for the team, and not dream up impossibilites.

You guys are juding way too much from what is NOT being said. I was only asking about the indie business to have a better understanding of it before looking into entry job levels at a company or an internship.

If I choose the indie route, I wanted to join an already established team, not create one. I wanted to work on THEIR game, not mine. I wanted to earn their trust, respect, friendship, dedication to the project - and then hey - when its all said and done why wouldnt I want to say "hey guys I got something I want to show you!"

But that is none of your business. I was just asking a question.

[Anthony Flack]

I don't think they meant any offense. It's just that every other week, someone turns up here with no experience, no useful skills, and a half-baked design document, wanting to make a MMORPG. And so this is kind of the standard "hey, reality check" response.

Seriously, it happens a lot. That's why people have jumped to these conclusions.

[zoombapup]

smelly: I know of a few small indie teams that have self-funded MMORPG's of various kinds. It happens, but its a very rare case where it actually makes a profit.

If you regard "indie" as privately funded. Then games get as big as you like. So for instance 3DRealm working on Duke Nukem Forever is "indie". Savage was a 2million budget (I think?) and was "indie".

In reality, regular "indie" is more like self-funded from day job and savings. Those kind of things are more in scope. Josh's work on Minions of Mirth spring to mind, he's done amazing things on a tiny budget really. But that's a rarity, because I think Josh is a working lunatic who can just turn over code (I've worked with these kind of people and theyre VERY rare).

[mooktown]

guys, guys, settle down...




take a deep breath in...




count to 3...




I just farted.

[mooktown]

also, check this out: http://www.gameproducer.net/2007/01/23/ask-game-producer-how-to-make-my-first-mmorpg/

[Batley]

I only know of 1 independently developed AAA mmorpg, that's CCP's Eve-Online.

They're a new company and this is their first and only game. They funded it's development by taking out a multi-million dollar load from the bank.

They published the game themselves. I think it took them a year to pay off the loan.

I don't know how they were able to secure the loan. I think i remember hearing in part how it was put up against their homes.

This was a few years ago though.

[Cicero]

I dont want to be apart of the indie business if means making games as a past time.

I guess you could apply that to any business. You could make a living walking dogs if you're serious about it, but if not, you're just walking the dog.

As long as you're aware that turning any hobby/past time into a profitable business means a hell of a lot of work (more than any 9-5 job). And if that doesn't put you off, I wish you luck - BUT a MMORPG as a first indie project is a disaster waiting to happen, even with a small game you're looking at 6-9 months of constant work before you make a penny. Start small, on 2-3 games that need a small amount of assets, use the experience (and hopefully income) from those to get you through a MMORPG later on.

My *very humble* 2p.

[papillon]

Well, if you've already got a million-dollar trust fund sitting in the bank to finance your project with, I'm sure that would help you get your dream going... :)

Asking questions like "how professional can it be" and then giving your 3d MMORPG as an example tends to imply that you think that ONLY 3D/MMORPG/Whatever is a professional game. Which is also something that we hear from some teenagers who feel that most of our games aren't 'real' games somehow, regardless of what went into them and what profits they achieve.

It is possible for one person with no industry experience, working out of a bedroom, with only lunch money as development funds, to create a game and make enough money to live on. It's not COMMON, but it's possible. But the more obstacles you put in your own way, the more difficult it is for you to get going.

MANY of us do not have any sort of team. A few do. But as previously mentioned, with our small budgets and big risks, you need to know that any team member can pull their weight and then some. We're not large companies with organised internships and training programs. If you don't have any background, most likely the only sort of team you're going to be able to be part of is a team of OTHER people who ALSO have no background and are trying to make their first game together. And hopefully, you will know and trust those people quite well, because if you've just built your team out of a bunch of hopefuls on a game forum somewhere, it tends to fall apart. :)

You say "If it's impossible with no experience, then how does anyone ever get started?" By STARTING SMALL. :) It's not impossible to make GAMES with no experience, but it's highly unlikely to make your dream game with your first attempt.

[Anthony Flack]

also, check this out: http://www.gameproducer.net/2007/01/...-first-mmorpg/
Quite right; the problem with MMORPGS is indeed that word "massively". I don't think it is possible for a project to be too small. They are always so much bigger than you thought. Hell, I thought I was doing a small game. It's just a simple platformer. I made it arena-based so as to get the most play-value out of the level designs and everything.

I've been working on it for over four years. God help me if I ever decide to do anything more ambitious without a large team of masochists to back me up.

[KNau]

The nature of your game project is entirely irrelevant. Whether your idea is a next-gen MMORPG or a match-3 game the point is that you are starting a business. 80% of businesses fail in the first year. Another 10% fail within the next 3 - 5 years.

Statistically speaking, regardless of your plan and regardless of your product, you only have a 1 in 10 shot of making it. Fortunately you are young and can afford to fail so the timing is right to make a go of it :)

[electronicStar]

Hey sorry if my previous post sounded a bit offensive. Actually I didn't want to diminish you or mock you, but as Anthony Flack pointed out, there are a lot of people who come to this forum (and others) with just a design document and dreams of grandeur, and 100% of the time they achieve nothing.

You asked about indie devellopers. In my mind, it means a devellopers that is self funded. The definition may vary but generaly it means someone with few fundings. IMO such a huge task as a MMO (the most complex time-consuming game that exists) should not be undertaken unless someone is backed up by big money.
Most indies undertake games with very limited scope/devellopment time (casual games for example).There is an economic reason to that. That doesn't mean that an indie can't undertake more ambitious projects, but it's better not to have an empty stomach when you do that.

Anyway welcome to this forum, I wish you the best of luck with your project if you really want to persevere (and perseverance is what makes a creator).
I agree 100% with you when you say that indie game devellopment should not be considered as a past time , you have to invest all you can in it if you want a chance to succeed. A lot of people here are doing that but also are obliged to work for a day job because they need the money.

[ragdollsoft]

80% of businesses fail in the first year.

Sounds like stevepavlina's *wisdom*

[Bad Sector]

If you really want to do this MMORPG and you try hard, you'll eventually do it.

What i'm trying to create is considered somewhat of a taboo for indie developers: i want to make a FPS (that is First Person Shooter not Frames Per Second :-P :-P). Note, though, that i'm working on it at my spare time for the last three years (and counting).

In the meanwhile, i'm also making small games (like Nikwi (http://www.slashstone.com/more/nikwi) and some unfinished stuff :-P) and the technology i make goes forth and back between these games and the FPS (f.e. Nikwi uses the scripting engine, the package system and the image fileformat from one of the engines i made for that FPS - ah, should i mention that making a big game doesn't mean you'll get it right from the very beginning?).

[lakibuk]

Sounds like stevepavlina's *wisdom*
I think this is common wisdom.
But what does it mean to fail an indie business?
Not being able to make enough money to not have to work in a job?
To sell less than 1000 copies of your first game?
To run out of interest to make a 2nd game?

[S2P]

an idea?? I should hope its a design document with all around concept artwork before I start claiming its next 'greatest' MMORPG, and even then, its just a design document with concept artwork right? ^_^

I was just curious if any indie teams have tackled this. I'm really interested in being the game designer and/or being apart of an indie team. I live near austin, so I dont think my location is bad at all either! But I didnt want to waste time on some game bible if the task is too big for any indie team to accomplish.

thanks for the comments

I truely believe that if you put your mind to it, and you are determined enough, for whatever reason that drives you. Me, its to have a better way of life for my family, make a difference somewhere in this world, and give others an opportunity to do something that they may not be able to achieve without some help. But before I do that I needed to start living the dream.

After setting out with a grand design in my head, without any experience in the game development industry, and apart from playing a few games and selling a load of games as a retailer, my experience is next to nothing. Even my design was not on paper before I managed to secure an investor to fund my game idea for a year, and for a small percentage of my company. They are in the online gaming industry and could see the potential in me and my idea, even though the risk is all theirs. I am one person, and my background is in IT infrastructure, as long as you have a bit of backing you can achieve almost anything with a business and game development plan to produce a prototype game that will command more funds in order to change anything that needs improving, before it's shown to the public. I have jumped in at the deep end on a project that is large, which is where I work at best, and have worked my way through most of the development process. Obviously going for the right game engine and the support/forums/documentation are key to your success as much as your idea is. I have delegated work to contractors based on my design requirements to come up with the artwork and model/rigging/texturing while I am learning this on the side, and plan on being experienced enough to come up with some of my own concepts by the next project. So by delegating the work to your own team, even though they are not permanant you can achieve what you have set out to achieve.

Good luck, in whatever direction you plan on going to gain the experience you need.

Edit: Oh and I forgot to mention that we are 85% complete in this project, and it's as large as an MMORPG.

[andrew]

I was asking about the limitations of the indie business *an MMORPG being a huge project* to help me understand if I should look for a local team or for a local internship at a big named company.


There are practically no indie MMORPG's because they are the hardest type of game to make. They are expensive, require lots of developers, LOTS of content, and every piece of code has to be client/server compatible. And then once it's "finished", there are endless hours of fun writing patches, supporting users, and trying to find that weird bug that crashes server #14 every ten minutes.

My advice: If you're in Austin, you would be much smarter to try to wiggle your way into a QA job at a local studio. There's Bioware, NCSoft, Midway, Retro, Aspyr, and many more. Learn the in's and out's of the process, look at some real design documents, get a sense of what's involved. After you've done a bit of time in the "real world", then you can jump back in the indie space and you'll be much more knowledgeable about how to get things done..

[Spaceman Spiff]

SmellyKitty,

A bit off topic from your original question, but... You say you are near Austin. If so, make every effort to go to the Austin Game Conference (http://www.cmpgame.com/gameinitiative/). I know it is 8 months away, but unless you decide trying to get involved with this game industry is not for you, go to it, soak in all that you can and talk to anyone who is already doing the things you want to be doing.

Making games is a lot different than what most people imagine, and there is no substitute or shortcut for learning and doing.

[RinkuHero]

I'm a college graduate. I seriously doubt a teenager can create an actual design document. An IDEA but not a design document.

I kinda resent that, haha. I'm 28 now, but when I was 15 I created several design documents (not just ideas). Judge for yourself: http://rinku.livejournal.com/1994/09/29/

Of course, now that I'm more capable of actually making those games, I have better ideas than those, so those weren't created. But I think it's fully possible for teenagers to create design documents or even to develop great games. As another example, the first Ultima game was made by Richard Garriot when he was a teenager.

(Sorry to take this off topic, but I'm just defending teenagers from abuse.)

[smellykitty]

I kinda resent that, haha. I'm 28 now, but when I was 15 I created several design documents (not just ideas). Judge for yourself: http://rinku.livejournal.com/1994/09/29/

Of course, now that I'm more capable of actually making those games, I have better ideas than those, so those weren't created. But I think it's fully possible for teenagers to create design documents or even to develop great games. As another example, the first Ultima game was made by Richard Garriot when he was a teenager.

(Sorry to take this off topic, but I'm just defending teenagers from abuse.)


but those are IDEA documents! and exactly what I thought a teenager was capable of! no offense to you of course, I dont know you and I'm sure youre great!

a real design document covers everything that needs to be covered, and should leave no questions. designers arent paid money to type up a page or two - they type up everything that needs to be established.

"2 - Cabbage King tells You to stop the carniferns, will let You past for some carrot chile"

what does the castle look like? what music is playing? is this a pixel game? birds eye view or 2d side scroller? how many paces till you reach the king? what action activates the king talking? do you have to click on the king or does the king start talking the moment it sees the character? what exactly is the king saying? what text will be used to represent the king? what does the text bubble look like? what does the king look like?

"2 - cross mango swamp, killing Mango Monsters"

exactly what is a Mango Monster? and how exactly do you kill them? is battle real time, turn based? what are the dynamics for damage done and damage taken? what weapons or skills are being used? how much life points does a Mango Monster have? what do they do? bump into the character and harm them? jump up and down and toss nuts? what noises are made when you attack? what noises does the Mango monster make?

I hope you understand what I am trying to get out. Designers get paid money becuase they lay out everything. so that when a part of the document is handed to other employees, they understand what needs to get done and dont have questions like "whats a mango monster?". and then there are all the technical questions the designer needs to keep in mind

of course things are different if you make the game by yourself you can answer those questions along the way, but not if you are working with a team. they need to already be answered. otherwise, an entire game based off vegetables is a fun idea.

**********************************

I wanted to ask everyone what they think of Maple Story. Ive never heard of an online game thats a 2d side scroller before. Its kinda fun and reminds me of a cheasier ragnarok online.

[Polycount Productions]

But I wanted to understand the other side of indie games. How 'big' do indie games get? Are there indie games that have yielded a lot of profit? Are there indie games that can host real time online multi player games in a completely three dimensional world?
Check out: http://www.gameproducer.net/category/sales-statistics/ (contains real-life examples on how well games sell)

Also see: http://www.game-sales-charts.com/cms/
Contains "portal top sellers" and information like that.

80% of businesses fail in the first year. Another 10% fail within the next 3 - 5 years.
Nope, they won't (http://www.gameproducer.net/2007/02/07/80-percent-of-companies-wont-fail-within-5-years/) :)

[RinkuHero]

In that case, no indie developer that I know of creates "real" design documents before they create games. They don't have to. Those are only really necessary for large teams.