What makes a good rpg story?

[whisperstorm]

Now before you post links like this (http://www.io.com/~sjohn/plots.htm), note I'm talking about the story, not necessarily the "plot".

In other words, while you were playing RPG X(III) what was it about the storyline that really struck you? Was it some element of personal transformation going on with the character? Was there some emotional moment where an NPC that had endeared itself to you was kidnapped or killed? Was there a moment where you said "yeah!" when come come in at the last minute and save the day. Or a particular element of suprise?

I'm looking for things that are sorta "meta plots". They dont belong to a particular plotline but are ways to make a story more emotionally involving to the player.


For instance imagine one of the characters in your party is a librarian (work with me here ..) they are doing miserably because - frankly they are a weakling and are coming along purely because they've read so many novels about heroes that they are convinced they can become one. However something unexpected happens. During the course of they story they discover they have the ability to control books ( similar to Yomiko Readman in R.O.D.)

That moment is focused on in the game and you see this weakling character at the point of being almost killed and suddenly discovering his/her true power. The tide turns quickly and the character defeats the monster (or whatever). You set it up so that you get this "yeah!" moment - kinda like that moment in Matrix 1 when Neo figures out his powers.

This is the kinda thing I"m talking about. I have yet to get very far in Aveyond - perhaps there's nuggets of things like this as well.


Anyone else have any "moments" like this that stick out when you were playing an rpg (or adventure...)

[papillon]

Moments of realization, when seemingly unrelated story events suddenly tie together and you see the world in a new light.

Of course, this is tricky, because many game writers have real trouble being complex and subtle, and will act like "Character X is REALLY your long-lost-brother/son from the future/evil nemesis/whatever" is a huge earth-shattering revelation when in fact it was completely obvious from the moment you met him.

Also, a plot twist isn't quite the same thing. Completely new information coming out of nowhere and sending you in a different direction isn't as cool as a new puzzle piece suddenly connecting information you already had and making you see everything differently.


I'm sort of jaded and not as interested in "suddenly discovering your true power" or finding out you're the heir / chosen one / dragonlord, or facing an Ancient Evil. Been there, done that.

Also, characters being kidnapped or killed dramatically often fails to move me because it's usually done in cheesy cutscenes that you could so obviously have changed the result of if you'd been in control... (Returning too late to the scene of a certain massacre in Fallout 2 was upsetting and frustrating, knowing there was no way in-game to prevent it, but at least I didn't have to watch a cutscene of my character standing around stupidly letting it happen!)

The first *emotional* memory that comes to mind was convincing Julanar-tree to blossom in Quest For Glory 2. It's not just her story - her story is simply sad. It's about telling her *your* story and giving your own adventures more meaning. The whole sequence is very sweet. Possibly more so because it doesn't have an absolute completion (at that point in the series). You haven't just solved her problems, fixed her, and sent her on her way, like some RPG plots. So she stays in your mind... (Has to, since it was a VERY long time ago I first played that!)

[soniCron]

First, the biggest problem I have with most RPG and Adventure storylines is predictability. The weak-character-gets-strong has been done so many times before, I'd see it a mile away and it wouldn't be interesting. (In fact, it wasn't.)

All things aside, conflict and misdirection are the only things that make a story interesting. (All things aside.) So your story should be chock full of them. And they don't have to be mind-blowing or world-changing, like a gamma ray bomb set to blow up the whole of Earth, or a librarian becoming a super-strong hero. Scale doesn't matter if you make the player/reader care about the subjects involved.

For example...

**CHRONO TRIGGER SPOILER**

In Chrono Trigger, your friend creates a transporter and demonstrates by transporting you from one side of the park to the other. Your love interest - a girl you met today at the fair - wants to try it out, but a problem occurs during transmission, caused by an interference with a necklace she was wearing. The transport turns into an inter-dimensional portal and she is sucked in. You jump in to follow her and find yourself 500 years in the past.

You go the now-young castle to seek help, but they are too busy preparing for a festivity. Apparently, the evil Magnus kidnapped the princess some time ago and she was recently returned. The army is preparing to retaliate with full force because of Magnus' atrocious treatment of the royal lady. Unfortunately, she is unable to help them pinpoint Magnus' current location because Magnus erased her memory.

As you explore the castle, you eventually find your way up to her room. Perhaps if you appeal to her, she will asist you in finding your girlfriend. You approach her to ask the favor and you discover... she is your girlfriend! Apparently she is descended from a long line of royalty and is, in fact, the princess in your time. Shame she didn't mention that when you met her at the fair...

[Rainer Deyke]

I know this advice sounds strange, but I have to say it: don't avoid cliches.

When a game consciously tries to avoid cliches, it often ends up dancing around the cliches in a way that draws more attention to them than just using the cliche ever would have. You also generally end up with a weaker story. The reason the same cliches are used over and over again is that they work.

On the other hand, if you write the story without thinking about other games or external requirements at all, then chances are that it will be at least somewhat fresh and original, regardless of how many cliches you end up using.

That said, nothing good can come from including time travel in your game.

[JoshuaSmyth]

Fallout (One of my favoriate RPGs) has an excellent story that is (as far as I can tell) mostly derived from the setting. I believe that you first have to make a self-congruent game world and then let the characters talk/behave and act as though they really existed in that world.

For example: If your RPG is set in the highly chivalrous king arthurs court, there are many situations where you could create conflict by directly targeting the characters inner morales. Eg: Temptation of the flesh, choosing to betray the king, because that is the only way to save the land. Always Honouring debt, always having to accept a challenge, even if it means certain death. Not using ranged weapons, being distrustful of magic. Being highly sensitive to omens etc...

Thats just one example, I believe that if you get the setting sorted first it would make it easier to create characters and then to create plots.

Oh, and I agree with Rainer, cliche's aren't bad. There is also difference between a cliche and a condition (nessesary or sufficent) that helps to define the genre.

[KNau]

I believe the info you're looking for is The Hero's Journey (http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/journey/ref/summary.html), and it's the basic framework for almost all popular storytelling from Lord of the Rings and Star Wars to The Matrix. The Hero with a Thousand Faces (the Joseph Campbell book that the hero's journey was summarized in) is treated like the bible in Hollywood, every story exec needs to know it inside and out.

I think it would be a better bet to use mythology or the basic rules of storytelling as presented in the hero's journey than to base your work on other games. You're more likely to come up with something interesting that way.

Oh, and do like the Japanese developers and have lots of dialog trees that end with characters saying "..." Now that's quality writing!

[MrQ]

I didn't really read the replies, but for me its Characters and character development.
If the characters arn't cool and appealing I won't play any further.

[whisperstorm]

...

:)

I've also been thinking about surprising twists to a story that bring elements together in a way that was unexpected. I remember how Kida in Atlantis becomes the instrument of their salvation, or a very surprising twist in a series called Thomas Covenant involving a character called Vain (no spoilers). I like the idea of having elements out in the game in plain sight which - once you discover what's really going on - take on an entirely different role. Another example - in Nausicaa when they discover the real purpose behind the toxic jungle - transforming it from a place of death to a place of renewal...

[Coyote]

I've actually been researching this a little bit. Some of the most interesting philosophies came from Richard Garriott ("Lord British"), back when he was still making RPGs (and not calling "Thief: The Dark Project" an RPG). But some of the assorted tidbits I've picked up from him and others (the one with the link is MINE, but hardly original):

Theme
The story should have a main theme (possibly with many sub-themes). It should be ABOUT something, not just pulping the bad guy and saving the world. A good theme should make you think. Examples: Final Fantasy 7's theme was that by ruthlessly exploiting and squandering nature's resource, we may be destroying ourselves in the process. Ultima V's theme was that the best ethical code, if rigidly and broadly enforced by a governing body rather than coming from within the individual, leads to woe.

According to Garriott, he only wanted to work on games (after IV) that had "socially significant meaning, or at least emotional interest."

Characters
Non-player characters should have enough realism to allow the player to accept them as characters (rather than just game icons). Players should have a reason to care about the characters other than purely mechanical ones.

Think about real-life here. People don't care about you because you feel like talking about yourself. People care about you because of how you impact THEIR life. That's selfish-sounding, but it's true.

Enemies should have a personal presence throughout the game, not just appearing at the end. (Another FF7 Example: Sephiroth!)

Decisions (Plot)
The player should have to make some moral / ethical decisions during the game - ones that make him think. Is your quest worth betraying a friend's trust?

Setting / Backstory
The player should never be force-fed the backstory (http://www.rampantgames.com/blog/2006/10/how-to-get-me-to-buy-your-indie-rpg.html) at the very beginning of the game!

The game should have a rich & compelling world and backstory, but it's best to "shown" rather than "told" to the player. And anything non-critical should be hinted at, but left for the player to actively discover only if he feels like it.


(GREAT DISCUSSION! I want to hear more!)

[Pluvious]

I like the mystery of figuring things out. For me it would be wise to develop a storyline that directly revolved around the idea of finding out just what is going on in an escalating fashion. And focus on this. Start with one large mystery that permeates (example, gods are actually demons) then add in layers of other mysteries below this (gate to hell, traveling in hell..what is it?, why gods have slaves, or whatever).

Then you just find a way to pass players this information (discover it), while tantalizing them with the new smaller information and of course the larger mysteries hanging over them.

[Coyote]

Oh, and do like the Japanese developers and have lots of dialog trees that end with characters saying "..." Now that's quality writing!

My favorite use of "...":

http://www.homestarrunner.com/underconstruction.html

[Phil Newton]

I think my favourite RPG story of all time was Shining Force III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Force_III), because even though it had the usual clichés it worked them into the story in a nice way, and there were several interesting sub-plots which really fleshed out some of the characters. It had a little bit of everything, from mask wearing cults to refugees escaping civil unrest.

One of my favourite parts is early on when the player must travel by a new invention, called a train. There's a lot of story and sneaking around here, but the real reward comes later on when you're at a town of possessed people. Upon freeing them, you find out that the steam technology was purchased by the governor in exchange for the his town. It's not a central plot point, but because it wasn't the focus it's nice when you realise what's happened.

If anything, it's the non-central parts of the story that really make it more interesting.

As papillon said, finally seeing different threads of the story come together in an unexpected way is always rewarding. It's hard to do, but giving the player an "a-ha" moment is a great way of building their connection with the story.

[Bad Sector]

AHAHAHAHAHHHA, that was very good :-)

[Artinum]

How's this for an idea...?

Build your story on cliches. Have the evil wizard trying to conquer the world, the mystical scimatar of Xenagogog, time travel, everything you can think of. And then make a mockery of the whole thing. Your quest encounters every cliche character you can imagine, all of them questioning their own motivations and acting "wrongly". Picture a dragon clearing all those shiny yellow rocks out of his cave, a troll that's gone vegetarian, a band of barbarian warriors that have discovered philosophy and ask why they fight...

The only downside of this tale would be a distinct lack of the usual random battles, leveling up, collecting of a million different spells and potions, and so on. I can't help but wonder if that would make it portal-friendly.

[whisperstorm]

Heh - I could have monsters that complain that they have to consume huge quantities of gold coins every day so that they will burst into piles of coins when they are defeated... nice idea ! :) Have the character wake up in his bed - only it's washed up on a beach :)

[Surrealix]

This is a really informative thread ;) some neat ideas here.


How's this for an idea...?

Build your story on cliches. Have the evil wizard trying to conquer the world, the mystical scimatar of Xenagogog, time travel, everything you can think of. And then make a mockery of the whole thing. Your quest encounters every cliche character you can imagine, all of them questioning their own motivations and acting "wrongly". Picture a dragon clearing all those shiny yellow rocks out of his cave, a troll that's gone vegetarian, a band of barbarian warriors that have discovered philosophy and ask why they fight...

(offtopic a bit)

I designed (and started programming) an RPG/sidescroller which was like this.

You played as an almost stereotypical knight in shining armour, except you were incredibly fat, couldn't run, and used your lance to polevault instead of jumping. The game started with the young knight kissing a frog, which, instead of turning into a princess, turned into a large dragon. All the placenames were in a really generic style; 'canyon of black misery' or 'tall tower of impending doom'.

I got a partially playable version of it coded, and artwork for a few levels, but it ended up being far too much work, with all the dialoge trees and storyline on top of the graphics and coding. So I changed it into the multiplayer platformer I'm working on now. It's something I'd love to come back to, because it was so much fun inventing all the slightly twisted plot lines and characters, and writing the dialogue.

[Greg Squire]

...Build your story on cliches. Have the evil wizard trying to conquer the world...
A spoof RPG. Me Likey! :D

[Coyote]

Heh - Greg, you may like my next project following Apocalypse Cow. I'll have to provide you with details at the January Utah Indies meet.

[PsySal]

I like stories that center around a group of elite teenagers or young adults who either have no parents or whose parents are only minimally referenced in the game. They should be doing something radical and extreme such as carrying out assasinations or saving the world. FF8 was pretty much my dream game, they really nailed it for me with that one! Well, mostly...

PS: This post is actually 100% NON-sarcastic, although I'm sure this disclaimer would be exactly reversed if someone else had posted it.

[Rainer Deyke]

A spoof RPG.

..which is itself a cliche. I kind of wish there was a way to spoof the spoof rpg trend, but I can't think of one.

[Artinum]

..which is itself a cliche. I kind of wish there was a way to spoof the spoof rpg trend, but I can't think of one.

...I don't know about RPGs, but in the world of graphic adventures I'd say "Flight Of The Amazon Queen" is nearest to your spoofed spoof - often funny, always cliche and yet always staying in the same style. It never caricatured, just revelled in being a massive cliche. And it was entertaining too.

[dishmoth]

I know this advice sounds strange, but I have to say it: don't avoid cliches.

When a game consciously tries to avoid cliches, it often ends up dancing around the cliches in a way that draws more attention to them than just using the cliche ever would have. You also generally end up with a weaker story. The reason the same cliches are used over and over again is that they work.


Cliches are never good. But replace "cliche" with "archetype" in the above and I'll agree with you. :)

A nice quote about writing fiction (I forget the source): Give your audience what they want, but never what they expect.

Simon

[jefferytitan]

I'd go for consistency and puzzle pieces coming together. There's nothing that makes you hate an NPC more than them getting themselves into some stupid situation for reasons you can't fathom. Come up with a vague plot outline, then design a few characters to suit the scenario, and then base the details of the plot on the characters, e.g. there's no reasonable way character X could get out of that situation knowing who they are, and THAT'S why they need your help.

[whisperstorm]

Well, for me the overarching storyline is going to be a twist on the traditional "save the princess" story. In the very beginning the "prince" get's captured trying to save the "princess" from a monstrous dragon. However, he get's himself trapped instead while managing to free the princess. The storyline will progress from the princess being a spoiled brat to a "real princess" as she travels the kingdom to find help in rescuing her "prince". It'll have a sorta FF X meets Disgaea vibe.

However talk is cheap - especially with 100's of folks who have their own rpg plot ideas.


Anyone else have examples of games where many random factors kinda "came together" to make a cohesive plot?

[soniCron]

Anyone else have examples of games where many random factors kinda "came together" to make a cohesive plot? Chrono Trigger was brilliant about this.

[Artinum]

I rather liked "In Cold Blood" on the Playstation. Agent Cord (a somewhat less unlikely version of James Bond) starts the game being tortured, his captors asking him questions about his past. The game then follows as a series of "missions" as Cord recalls his adventures.

It starts off with Cord's first tale in a disused uranium mine, looking for an American agent who's gone missing. While down there he discovers a secret, and the rest of the game sees him being sent to find out more, uncovering a rather involved plot and a few allies and enemies. There's a big twist at the end and then Cord escapes, the last couple of "missions" being to stop the bad guys from causing World War 3.

Should you die in the "remembered" missions, the restore/restart screen had Cord saying things like "no, it couldn't have happened that way..." - a neat touch I rather liked.

I admit that In Cold Blood is not your standard RPG but the same plot ideas come about in a variety of adventure games. This game appealed to me not only because of the well written story but the minor details they throw in (lots of items in the game you can look at and interact with, even if they aren't relevant) and the occasional humour - including puns that James Bond would be proud to quip.

[Jesse Aldridge]

* Suikoden 2 spoiler *

At the begining of Suikoden 2 the main character and his best friend, Jowey (sp?) are soldiers of the Highland army (iirc). Your camp gets attacked and the two of you flee together. You get chased to the edge of a cliff overlooking a waterfall. Before they jump, the two characters carve an 'x' onto a boulder and make a promise to meet back at this spot should they ever get separated. Then they jump and end up in separate places.

As you proceed through the game the main character becomes involved with the opposing rebel army. Eventually you learn that Jowey has risen in the Highland army. Throughout the entire game NPCs make comments about the inevitability of war and it's destructive brutality. The theme of the game is more or less that war is bad, but it's hinted at subtly.

At the end of the game, 40 hours or so after you started, you've become the head of the rebel army which is making preparations for the final battle against the highland army which is headed by Jowey. You've both met and fought a few minor battles before (I think...).

So, you go to the meeting room where you're army is assembled and this guy turns to you and says, "Are we ready to invade?" and you choose between, "Yeah, let's go." and "I have to do something first." Assuming you don't give the order to invade you can take your character and walk all the way back to the begining of the game, to the spot where you and Jowey made the 'x' and you find him there waiting for you.

Jowey talks about how war is horrible, but inevitable. He suggests the two of you settle the war right then between the two of you, and you go into the 1 on 1 battle mode. Now if you "got" the game at this point you'll understand that you should just let him beat on you and not fight back. So at this point, you have a feeling that the designers have some trick here, but you aren't sure, and should you just let him beat you down? Will you be losing the war for your side by losing here? Or will you be able to end the historical cycle of violence? If you don't fight back, eventually he stops attacking you, and sees the light, and you both agree to work together to find a peaceful solution to the world's conflicts. Of course, all of this works a lot better in the actual game :)

Most people, I think, do not see this ending, because the game shows you the obvious path of going ahead and invading. The fact that this possiblity was there and I succesfully activated it made me feel a very profound connection to the designers; as though I had truly understood their message in the game.

(...ok so actually, it's not quite that great. You only actually get that ending if you managed to collect all 264 characters or however many there were in the game, and to do that you pretty much have to play through the game more than once; and who's gonna wanna play through an epic rpg twice in a row? not me. So yeah, you normally get kind of lame, watered down version of this ending... but the effect is still good :) )

[Popcorn Boy]

Well, for me the overarching storyline is going to be a twist on the traditional "save the princess" story. In the very beginning the "prince" get's captured trying to save the "princess" from a monstrous dragon. However, he get's himself trapped instead while managing to free the princess. The storyline will progress from the princess being a spoiled brat to a "real princess" as she travels the kingdom to find help in rescuing her "prince". It'll have a sorta FF X meets Disgaea vibe.



FWIW, I think this sounds pretty cool. :)