Feeding Frenzy, Hamsterball, Orbz coming to arcades

[undersan]

Gamasutra article (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20041025/cifaldi_01.shtml#)

In an otherwise very pessimistic summary of the current arcade industry, Frank Cifaldi has nothing but good things to say about these three PC-to-arcade ports.

I want an arcade version of my game! Regardless of the business potential, I can't think of a cooler way to show off your game at your home/office/whatever. :)

[Bluecat]

I want an arcade version of my game! Regardless of the business potential, I can't think of a cooler way to show off your game at your home/office/whatever. :)

If you just wanted a single, demo machine, it wouldn't be too hard. You'd just need to build a cabinet, put a PC inside and a fix a flatscreen montor in there as well. Connect a joystick, or dismantle one to get the button layout and put that on your control panel. Do some cabinet artwork, and voila! Your very own arcade machine. ;)

[Cartman]

I'm actually thinking about doing exactly what you describe. I have arcade cabinets and locations that I put them at, so it would only take a PC and some input software to control a game from within the cabinet. It might give me an idea of how it would perform on route. I saw the orbz cabinet in Eugene a few weeks back and it was very cool. However I'm still not sure how well it will do on route.

From an operator perspective I can tell you that cheap driving games are what operators want. Vertical shooters also do well.

[DavidRM]

FlexArcade is considering offering developers "Vanity Cabinets" (or whatever else you want to call them).

-David

[Greg Squire]

I can tell you all from experience that having an arcade cabinet to play your games on is loads of fun. A year ago, I converted an old arcade cabinet into a custom cabinet that plays both pc games and some old emulated classics. It set me back around $900 total for everything (which includes the cheap $300 refurb PC in there). I know it can be done even cheaper than that if you go the do-it-yourself route.

I also played ORBZ at IGC on the new flexArcade cabinets and thought that was a cool idea. They also had Platypus loaded on there for a bit and it played really well. In fact, I liked playing Platypus more with a trackball than a standard mouse.

For those that want to convert or build your own cabinet, the best site out there to do that is the Build Your Own Arcade Controls (BYOAC) website (http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade.htm). The forums there are full of knowledgeable people that can help you construct one. The site admin also has a book out on building an arcade cabinet (see here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764556169/buildyourowna-20/102-7697192-3659361) and Project Arcade (http://www.projectarcade.com))

If you want plans, pre-made cabinets (minus the PC and monitor), or controllers, you can check out some of these sites:
http://www.gamecabinetsinc.com/
http://www.custom-arcade.com/
http://www.mameroom.com/
http://www.hanaho.com/
http://www.slikstik.com/
http://www.x-arcade.com/

[Greg Squire]

Also, here’s a very small sample of some cabinets that people have made (just to show you what's possible)
http://www.lusid.net/arcade/
http://www.1uparcade.com
http://www.cybercoma.com/supercade/
http://www.spidertrace.com/arcade2.htm

[DFG]

Do arcade machines still make money?

[Anthony Flack]

A trackball? Platypus was specifically designed to work as an arcade game (er, for some reason)... but I was definitely thinking digital stick and button. A trackball for an arcade shooter? That's weird. I don't remember seeing any other arcade shooters with trackballs.

[edit] Or was it just that the cabinet just happened to have a trackball in it and not a stick? Duh. Probably.

[Mike Boeh]

It had a trackball in it because Platypus hasn't been modified for the Unit, so they needed a trackball to work the menus... It looks really nice in an arcade cabinet!

[Dan MacDonald]

Yup, just like a real arcade game... It was a big hit too. The TLC guy was hovering around the cabnit the whole weekend, i'm sure he noticed the interest in platypus.

[Anthony Flack]

TLC had contacted me about it in the past, but of course it's nothing to do with me.

Y'know, the original version of Platypus would work just right in an arcade cabinet with very little modification... it was designed with that in mind (again, don't ask me why. Arcade game homage or something).

[Greg Squire]

Do arcade machines still make money?

Not like they used to. However it sounds that TLC plans on "shaking up the industry", with these flexArcade cabinets. They plan on selling them to operators for around $5,000 if I remember correctly (which in on the low end for cabinets). And since they are loading them with Indie titles, they aren't paying huge money for software, like the big boys have to do (which makes the cabinets more expensive). These FlexArcade cabinets are also made so that you can quickly change the software and marquee and have a new game when the other one becomes old. I believe they were were going to give developers about half of every software add-on pack that they sell. The arcades are a "cash only" business, so you'll never see any royalties from each quarter deposited, just the money from sale of the add-on pack (the arcade operators are trying to make money too). However, on the bright side, having your game in an arcade might lead to a sale of the PC or Mac version online (at their nextArcade site [or maybe yours]).

So will this be a good thing? Only time will tell, but I think it's a good idea. At any rate I think it would just be cool to walk into your local arcade and see your game sitting right there!

[Greg Squire]

A trackball? Platypus was specifically designed to work as an arcade game (er, for some reason)... but I was definitely thinking digital stick and button. A trackball for an arcade shooter? That's weird. I don't remember seeing any other arcade shooters with trackballs.

[edit] Or was it just that the cabinet just happened to have a trackball in it and not a stick? Duh. Probably.

Yeah. As Mike mentioned, the cabinet on display at the IGC had a trackball and two buttons (basically working as a mouse). They do have other cabinets and panels, so a joystick is an option (you can see some of them here (http://www.flexarcade.com/cabinets/flexarcade_cabinets/index.html)).

I thought Platypus looked and played great in the cabinet there. It would probably work great in a two player cabinet. Mike and Anthony you might want to talk to those TLC guys, as Dan said, Platypus was a big hit on that cabinet and I know they noticed that.

[Cartman]

I'll give my two cents on the question about the arcade marketplace since I make some of my money from it.

First of all, the margin for profits are so small now that many operators have just shut down their businesses. I know operators who have hundreds of machines that they can't route or get rid of, so they are not eager to spend $5000 on new cabinets. Big operators will try to use TLC's games to see how they do, however if they don't perform better than average, you won't see average operators buying them.

If you were to look at the numbers in arcade trade magazines like Replay, you will see that the big earners are games that are in some cases over 6 years old. It's funny to see games like Rush, Area 51, Ms. Pac, and Golden Tee still showing up in the top 10 earners.

Let me put this into perspective from a purchasing standpoint. I can get a NIB(new in the box) Ms. Pac/Galaga combo with a 25" screen for under $5000. This is a known earner, no guess work or risk involved. Or I can get a slightly used Star Wars Trillogy upright for about the same price. (great branding) And I can sell it later to a Star Wars collector and make back my money.

If I had to choose between one of these cabinets and Orbz(and I like orbz), I would choose the garanteed earner, not Orbz.

My point is that if TLC want to get these machines into the hands of operators, they will need to get them down around $2000 for a cabinet like Orbz, and I don't believe they will do that because there isn't enough profit in it.

The only cabinets I would buy from TLC that I think have a prayer of earning enough to pay for themselves would be driving games, or vertical shooters. I can't even put out gun games any more because of the concern about violence from parents and the establishments I host the games in.

[Anthony Flack]

It would probably work great in a two player cabinet.

Specifically designed to, right down to the second player joining in and dropping out. All you'd have to do is link the credit counter to the coin mechanism.

[princec]

Hang on a sec... I thought the idea was "generic cabinets, installable games"? So you just bought the rights to use the software in the cabinet, and some graphic overlays to go on the thing? So your investment is $5000 in a cabinet but then a couple of hundred bucks on any game you choose to put in it?

cas :)

[tolik]

Almost two years ago I was involved in arcade platform development. Still, a lot of the details are under NDA but I'll give some hints. The hardware was basically very similar to Xbox (nForce based). This was a cool piece of modding costing almost nothing. It was using flash as boot device and had couple of slots for more flashes (one game = one flash). There was extra security chip (can't remember what exactly it was). But this is not the thing it was all about. It was JAMMA compatible, so you were able to plug it into any existing cabinet with arcade monitor and. There were different sets of OSes with different games tried (DOS, Linux, Windows) and different controllers supported (and easily extendable).

I'm not working in this company anymore, but since I don't see this solution anywhere, I suppose it was doomed ;)

Nowadays we see bigger companies doing similar projects (like Namco/Konami/etc)...

[tolik]

Hang on a sec... I thought the idea was "generic cabinets, installable games"? So you just bought the rights to use the software in the cabinet, and some graphic overlays to go on the thing? So your investment is $5000 in a cabinet but then a couple of hundred bucks on any game you choose to put in it?

cas :)

http://www.system16.com

You'll leard everything about the arcade platforms there.
You could buy an arcade machine on some very common hardware and then buy dozens of the games for such platform. However every arcade game manufacturer has a lot of different hardware and it's generations...

[Andy]

Thanks for pretty detailed and weighted opinion Cartman. Being involved into development of pin simulations I had a chance to talk to amount of professionals from arcade industry. You are damn right Cartman - good license that's what sells in arcades on current stage if anything sells at all.

Star Wars logo on the side of the cabinet will sell 100 more than any pretty well designed game with unknown lable. That's the arcade itself breaths into this magic. Flashing light, laud sound and Bah! - Terminator logo - that's where I go today...

[Greg Squire]

Seems to be a vicious downward cycle the arcades are in. Arcade operators are only buying machines known to make money, as fewer and fewer people seem to come in. Arcade cabinet manufacturers are selling less and less cabinets as a result, and thus they produce fewer and fewer titles, which then limits choices back on the operators. Since the arcades have very little “new” stuff to offer the customers, and because there’s little difference between arcade hardware and consoles/PCs, there’s little incentive for people to visit the arcades. Because there are fewer customers, arcade operators are less likely to take risks on new machines, and thus they only buy “known money makers”. And so the cycle continues.

I don’t know how this is going to change. I know many have tried. I know TLC is trying something a bit different. I don’t know if it will catch on. I don’t know that it’s going bring people back to the arcades and break the cycle. If some innovation doesn’t take place in the industry, the few arcades that are left will also die.

Nearly all the arcade machines I see nowadays are secondary business (secondary income); they are attachments to restaurants, bowling alleys, family entertainment centers, etc. They make money only because the people are already there because of something else. There are only two arcades in my local area that aren’t attached to something else, and both are filled with old rundown machines. I’m amazed that they are even still alive.

One more side note: The TLC guys in their presentation at IGC mentioned that nearly all hardware in arcade machines are PC based any more. It just costs too much to make custom hardware, when the PC is powerful enough anymore. Thus to reduce costs (in both manufacturing and software development), they use standard hardware.

[arcadetown]

My buddy has one of those Hanaho arcade cabinets (http://www.hanaho.com/) and it's pretty cool with the hotrod joystick, trackball, and monitor that plug right up to any computer. X-Arcade (http://www.x-arcade.com/) offers similar setup for cheaper but the Hanaho model is looks so much nicer. Have an X-Arcade controller here (just the controller, not the cabinet... sigh) and it's kicks butt for the old emulator games, particuarly Robotron with the dual joysticks!

[PoV]

Yeah. Despite the declining business and all, arcade is cool. You'd have a hard time finding someone interested in games that doesn't agree. There's a whole bunch of home arcade cabnets, and home arcade sticks, but I've not seen anyone else do the combination (http://junk.sykhronics.com/photos/Arcade1/Arcade01.jpg) of (http://junk.sykhronics.com/photos/Arcade1/Arcade02.jpg) both (http://junk.sykhronics.com/photos/Arcade1/)! :D

[Hamumu]

That is way cool... I've always wanted an arcade Samurai Shodown II... maybe I should see if it's on Mame, and just buy the rom and one of these PC cabinet thingies, much more useful! But does mame (or anything) do Neo-Geo? Well, I'm sure somebody's emulated it by now. Oh, I love arcade games... such a pain when you move though.

[arcadetown]

Actually my buddy had a combo unit all in one (http://www.hanaho.com/products/ArcadePC/Deluxe/index.html). It's top notch quality with dual player controls and trackball for mouse support but they're price is insanely high now. Got this X-Arcade dual joystick (http://www.x-arcade.com/two-player.shtml) and it's totally cool but like all the other goodies just collects dust now. Another cool thing about the joystick is it came with Playstation 2 adapter so kids had blast playing arcade fighting games like Techen 3.

Edit: Just saw the Hanaho HotRod SE joystick (http://www.hanaho.com/products/HotRodJoystick/overview.html) was lowered to $99.99 from $199.99. Not bad at all, too bad their cabinets went the opposite direction in price.

[RedKnight]

Samurai shodown II play perfectly on NeoRageX
:cool:

As for Arcade.
all my favorites are Fighting games , Street Fighters series, King of Fighters,
Mark of The Wolves (Fatal Fury), Last BladeI & II, Samurai Shodown series.

Mortal Kombat not included. :rolleyes:

[Anthony Flack]

Does MAME do Neo Geo? Of course!
Is SSII on MAME? Of course!

MAME is pretty damn comprehensive these days. Except for Buggy Boy.

[RedKnight]

Of course mame does everything you want.
But NeoRageX got a 2 player Joystick support.

[tolik]

Of course mame does everything you want.
But NeoRageX got a 2 player Joystick support.

NeoRageX doesn't support some gfx effects of the original thing, thus not providing complete and accurate emulation compared to MAME (which IS slow).

[Greg Squire]

On a side note (mostly for Mike and Anthony):

I put Platypus on my arcade cabinet last night to try it out. I was able to set it up as player one on the digital joystick (arrow keys) and player two on the trackball (mouse). Both controls worked well. I could zip around a bit faster with the joystick, but aiming precision seemed better with the trackball, but overall they were equally playable. My cabinet has a two player control panel with Happs 8-way super joysticks (http://www.happcontrols.com/index.html?http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/super_joy.htm!), and one 2 ¼ mini trackball (http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html) between them. It also uses an IPAC (http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html) interface card to translate all the joysticks and buttons to keyboard presses.

Also it appears there isn’t any way (currently) to get Platypus setup so that both players were using joysticks. My cabinet is setup to use the standard MAME keyboard layout for inputs (for the most part). It would be nice if there was an advanced setup option that would let you map keyboard inputs to specific actions in the game (ie. ‘Arrow Up’ to P1Up, ‘Arrow Down’ to P1Down, ‘R’ to P2Up, ‘F’ to P2Down, etc.) Also it would be helpful if the UI could also be controlled by player one’s joystick (arrow keys), as some panels wouldn’t have the trackball. Anyway that’s my wish list for Platypus.

Other developers take note. If you have game that you’d want people to use on home built arcade cabinets, then having a “mapable controls” feature is a must (unless the entire game has to use a mouse).

BTW, Kevin Steele has reviewed a number of indie games here (http://www.retroblast.com/software.html) on his site that he thought would go good on an arcade cabinet. (Hampster ball, Mutant Storm, Space Tripper, Starscape are listed there).

Edit: Guardian is also there

[Roulette]

BTW, Kevin Steele has reviewed a number of indie games here (http://www.retroblast.com/software.html) on his site that he thought would go good on an arcade cabinet. (Hampster ball, Mutant Storm, Space Tripper, Starscape are listed there).

You forgot Guardian...it's listed there as well.

- Roulette
http://www.superluminal.us

[Greg Squire]

You forgot Guardian...it's listed there as well.

- Roulette
http://www.superluminal.us

Sorry about that. I tried to name all the games listed there that were made by people on this board, and I missed one.

[RedKnight]

There's also a rare cabinet game with Doom in a movie.
(forgot that name)

[Anthony Flack]

Ah yes... well it was the original version of Platypus which had the arcade cabinet focus... no mouse control (oops) BUT it did have fully mappable controls, with this sort of use most definitely in mind (I thought people with arcade cabinets might appreciate it).

My personal feeling is that all controls should be fully user-configurable, but I guess Mike wanted it as straightforward as possible for the casual market, and, well... I can't argue with that as it seems to have worked.

Nevertheless I'm still going to include fully mapable controls in all my future games... just one of the points of differences between Mike & me I guess.

[Hamumu]

I think the Doom arcade game was in Grosse Pointe Blank... of course, it was blown up along with the entire convenience store it was in.

[JamesHills]

Wow, great thread!

Please let me know if I can answer any specific questions you might have about FlexArcade.

In regards to the issue of cost per unit ... Cartman is absolutly right. We would be crazy if we expected operators to purchase $5,000 cabinets for each game. That is the reason we created FlexArcade ... buy the hardware once and then be able to update it very rapidly and very cheaply with just a FlexGame pack - software CD, hardware key and a new marquee.

Also, the $5,000 figure we quoted at the show is a significantly higher number than an operator can expect to pay from a distributor ... like any manufacturer we have to make our distributors look good when they quote prices to their customers :)

So basicly, you would be looking at $5,000 for the first game and then $500 for the second, third, fourth etc. (that $500 figure is also just a ball park figure as some games will be less and some games will be more). So if you take that $5,000 figure and average it out over 2 years, assume you are going to switch games every six months then each "game" is about $1,500, which is even cheaper than that magic number you are quoting of sub $2,000.

In the mean time, we are also adding other value to the operator ... ability to do seasonal / event based games that might run for 6 weeks as a "Christmas" or a "Valentines" game ... just like the redemption market does with prizes. Also, because our entire line has the same FlexWare, it makes it more simple to manage the machines, track earnings etc. Finally, we are also developing some programs to actually allow locations to post their "specials" in the attract modes or splash screens etc. ... i.e. after playing a game you might see "come back on tuesday for $25 wing night!"

Though we are adding other value to our games that aren't in our competitors offerings, it is still absolutly all about coin-drop and return on investment, so we are working closely with our developers to maximize the earning potential of each game ... not just saying "wow that game rocks on PC lets throw it into an arcade cabinet!"

This is why games like Bandits: Phoenix Rising are now Bandits: BattleZone ... we wanted to distill the gameplay and make it easy to get into and present a great run and gun blow everything up multiplayer as well as single player game. It now only graphically resembles the original game. For the arcade we didn't need the missions and depth of gameplay, we just needed something that would be fun to play for a while where the user could feel that they experienced something fun for a few minutes.

At the office we are having a blast playing Bandits in four player mode (though it supports 8), driving around firing the cannons at each other and then just unloading with a stream of rockets till the pieces of metal that was once a dune buggy go flying across the screen.

Feel free to drop me any questions, I'll monitor this thread or you can email me directly: jamesh@tlcind.com

Those of you in Chicago-land feel free to stop by our open house, Nov. 10 2-7 p.m. and every 2nd Wednesday following.

Cheers!

James Hills
Marketing Director
TLC Industries
http://www.flexarcade.com

[Andy]

James is pretty nice guy and it's a pleasure to talk to him. But the main question for him when this site http://www.nextarcade.com will move from the dead point. :D

It's a time James... No? ;-)

[JamesHills]

We are working hard to get that off the ground as well :)

We allocated resources from NextArcade to make sure that FlexArcade was a bit more polished and to work with the developers more closely etc.

I expect to have NextArcade open next week in some capacity, though it will not have the NextArcade desktop application that we had originally intended. However, that will be back in Q1 2005 as we begin to launch NextArcade hardware and game bundles in retail channels.

To those unfamiliar with NextArcade, it is our home arcade product ... taking online game distribution, authentic arcade hardware and building a community including cash tournaments etc.

[Andy]

Well, hopefully Flex one would be in time and OK. ;-)

I said you James I love arcade gaming so have to like your company as well. So, good luck!

[JamesHills]

Thanks, I hope one day we can meet up and we can share a bottle of vodka as we celebrate our games together :)

[Andy]

:mad:
Yes I'm Russian. And that's hard to believe for you but I prefer good beer - Sam Addams and Red Hook in States to give you the taste.
:D

[JamesHills]

At the risk of continuing this OT discussion, I'll buy you a beer or two then!

[JamesHills]

Well Andy you taunted me and asked when it would be ready....

it is UP now :)

www.nextarcade.com

Cheers!

[Andy]

Really?! Oops - how could I miss it in another one hundred articles and topics you have created around James?! :D

Congrats really! And good luck!

PS I'd like to see more fun design for website - but this is so personal... ;)