What happened to Reflexive?

[Spaiz]

Not sure, is this a right place to ask, but i dont have other options. I can't load reflexive.com page during last week, everything what i get is a blank page in all browsers...maybe it's only my problem or something happened? I know that people from Reflexive visit this forum from time to time.

[Jack Norton]

Here works fine. Maybe they banned some countries IP?

[Barlok]

Spaiz, if your mother language refer to slavjanic languages, please visit this link: http://dev.swargo.com/?module=articles&c=news&b=6&a=2
or read this is letter i'm get from Reflexive:



Hello Everyone:

I wanted to highlight a recent security feature to our Affiliate program to help reduce Fraud. In our continuing fight to keep games safe and our sales
system free from illegitimate credit card users, we've changed the availability of games being downloaded and purchased from several countries.
The flagged countries are the following:
A1 - Anonymous proxy
BY - Belarus
CS - Serbia and Montenegro
EG - Egypt
ID - Indonesia
MY - Malaysia
NG - Nigeria
PS - Palestinian Territory
RO - Romania
RU - Russia
VN - Vietnam
Beginning immediately access to the game downloads will not be available to customers from these countries that create large numbers of fraudulent
credit card charges. We are sure that you will appreciate the steps that we are taking to keep our the games on Reflexive Arcade and our ordering system safe.
***IMPORTANT*** If your company is located in a country in in the above list, you will no longer has access to the future games in our catalog. This does not change our relationship with you in any way. However, it will likely make it more difficult for you to access the Reflexive catalog of games. So if you previously download the games from our server and are hosting your own downloads, then you can no longer host the new games going forward as you won't have access to them. You'll need to point the new game downloads to our server using this general download URL(Replace with CID and
AID): http://arca...amp;AID=ABC (http://arcade.reflexive.com/downloadgame.aspx?CID=123XYZ&AID=ABC)
This way, customers will have access to the new games and your catalog will continue to grow with us.If you have any questions please email me. Thanks for your partnership!
Michael Mei
Reflexive Entertainment
www.Reflexive.com (http://www.reflexive.com/)
949-830-1903 x30

[Andy]

Another nazis in a crowd. Nice!.. Nice!.. :D

I mostly liked this part:
"...you will no longer has access to the future games in our catalog. This does not change our relationship with you in any way."

[BIGZIPZ]

Gotta love blanket racism.

[princec]

Racism is unfounded bias ("prejudice"). This isn't prejudice, it's just looking at statistics and making a wise business move.

Cas :)

[Spaiz]

Oh my....this is really, really bad...i didn't receive this letter however i'm Reflexive affiliate... and what should i do now to access Reflexive catalogue? They didn't provide any helping guidelines...Proxy will help or what?

[BIGZIPZ]

It was blocked for me last week too. I thought I had messed up my HOSTS file at first but I hadn't. Suddenly started working again a few days ago. I am in ENGLAND.

[val]

Huh, our network was blocked also on this week.
Have to use proxy now =)

[Davaris]

I was thinking of blocking every country except for the US as the US is the only country that buys my games. Hell even my own country doesn't buy my games so I'm going to block them as well. ;)

[Bad Sector]

So i should ban everyone since nobody buys my games, right?

[jankoM]

Well I only sold couple dousant KUBI's and I got 1 buyer from russia ;), one from poland and one from turkey... so it's not only usa by far, my first 2 buyers were from australia and dubai.

(only two people on this forum will understand that ;) )

[cyrus_zuo]

Oh my....this is really, really bad...i didn't receive this letter however i'm Reflexive affiliate... and what should i do now to access Reflexive catalogue? They didn't provide any helping guidelines...Proxy will help or what?

@Spaiz > Sorry that the email didn't come through to you. Drop a line to Michael Mei and he should be able to help more for your specific situation. Your customers shouldn't have any trouble getting to the games unless they are in one of the blocked countries or using an Anonymous proxy (which would block them regardless of their location).

===============

On the decision overall it follows what has been done by Trymedia, BigFish, Real and other leading Internet companies. The reason behind it is fraud. The countries who were blocked have a record of making fraudulent charges. Reflexive is always changing our website and network to fight this and the most recent move is another step (one that our processing partner suggested we should have made some time ago).

In order to continue process credit cards and selling games we must continually fight fraud. Removing the countries listed makes a very big impact in this fight. In addition to the countries listed that were blocked for affiliates and Reflexive, Reflexive itself has also blocked Russia from Reflexive.com to help fight piracy.

As Cas mentioned moves like these are simply looking at statistics and making decisions based on what they say. For our affiliates, our relationship doesn't change, even if they are located in a blocked country, as nearly all of their sales do not occur in blocked countries.

Hope this helps to clarify things :)

[Andy]

Hope this helps to clarify things :)

That's really depends what you were trying to clarify Russ. :)

If the fact that you suspect me based upon my nationality than YES. This is well know methods and you are not the first using them. This was pretty well known practice at 30s-40s of last century in a couple of countries.

As for another websites mentioned in your post - looks like they've just fooled you. I can easily visit them all. :p

PS Why to use that neutral "Server is too busy" btw? Say me what you think about me - "You are from Russia. We suspect you are thief and fraud"

Good luck to your business anyway,

[BIGZIPZ]

Also I love the fact he quoted those large game companies as others who follow this practice (seems like they don't) as if that justifies it. Just because company x and y does something, it doesn't mean its "OK".

It should be illegal to do this IMHO - I see no difference between this and the man who ran a guest house in England who made the headlines with a sign saying "no black people" because they cause trouble. You ARE discriminating against an ENTIRE country on the basis of the reputation of some of its citizens. Its disgusting and you know it.

[soniCron]

You ARE discriminating against an ENTIRE country on the basis of the reputation of some of its citizens. With all due respect, they're discriminating based on a series of past fraudulent charges, not reputation. They are under no obligation to make their wares available to anybody, let alone a country which has proven itself costly to provide for. This isn't an issue of racism or prejudice - it's economics.

[DFG]

Cmon guys, put yourself in Reflexive's place. If you got 0 orders from country x but 15 fradulent orders a month (or more) which cost you 15x$20=$300 per month in chargeback fees AND put you at risk of being dropped by a credit card company, what would you do? Also, those countries host tons of warez sites that practically steal your content.

I understand the innocent people of those countries would get angry and frustrated, but there is no law or constitution anywhere that says any company has to give full access to their web properties. Sorry, we are not communists here in America, we can do what WE want with our businesses within the law and it is our right to do so.

I believe any game company would gladly allow anyone to access their content if they weren't being taken advantage of and ripped off on a regular basis. If there were any easier way to control this problem, I am sure it would be done. Right now, the only recourse is to block via IP to protect the company.

[BarrySlisk]

Talking about racism in this case is dumb. It is unfortunate that this is necessary though. I don't think anybody is so racist that they do not want to make money if there is any to be made :)

[KNau]

Basically, it comes down to there not being enough sales from these countries to justify the fraud costs. Although, I can't understand why these regions would bother with fraudulent orders when every major portal uses cookie-cutter protection that's easily bypassed. I mean, Russians can google "key codez" as easily as anyone else can't they?

[soniCron]

I mean, Russians can google "key codez" as easily as anyone else can't they? Well, no. There's no, "y," "c," or, "z," in the Cyrillic alphabet. :p (Well, okay - there's a, "C," but it's more like our, "S." ;))

[Antony]

I have only three questions to Reflexive.

1) May be you share some fraud statistic. I guess 90 % of credit card frauds comes not from the listed countries.

2) Russia, Bellaruss - why I don't see Ukraine in the list ? Or for example China ?

3) If you see order from Central Russia from "John Smith" - you still get credit card number ?

May be I do not understand something - is it econimic or politic ?
Palestinian Territory. Are whey already have Internet :) ?

The point is - may be its better to be more "selective". Do not panish the whole country ?

[Pyabo]

There must be some other way of dealing with an enitre country than simply blocking it. Isn't there some sort of extended checking one could do for orders placed from those countries? Require a different form of payment maybe?

[electronicStar]

Cmon guys, put yourself in Reflexive's place. If you got 0 orders from country x but 15 fradulent orders a month (or more) which cost you 15x$20=$300 per month in chargeback fees AND put you at risk of being dropped by a credit card company, what would you do? Also, those countries host tons of warez sites that practically steal your content.

I understand the innocent people of those countries would get angry and frustrated, but there is no law or constitution anywhere that says any company has to give full access to their web properties. Sorry, we are not communists here in America, we can do what WE want with our businesses within the law and it is our right to do so.

I believe any game company would gladly allow anyone to access their content if they weren't being taken advantage of and ripped off on a regular basis. If there were any easier way to control this problem, I am sure it would be done. Right now, the only recourse is to block via IP to protect the company.
Yes but that is not going to encourage these countries to get out of this situation nd the few legit customers are not only discouraged but also insulted with this policy.
I know, you are not in a communit country. "Yeehaa!" cowboy. I suppose people in these poorer country can still work for reflexive as contractors with less than standard rates...
And yes , it is similar to racism, because as someone else pointed out, the shops who would display signs such as "no black allowed" would probably find a lot of rlevant economical or judicil justifications to their actions.
The only differenc with racism is that there aren't laws against that yet. (some laws are starting to appear in the european union that would probably make this more difficult though...)

[Duke]

Well, no. There's no, "y," "c," or, "z," in the Cyrillic alphabet. :p (Well, okay - there's a, "C," but it's more like our, "S." ;))
Doh!
So that's why I get all those compiler errors? :p

Btw, count "d" in there, too.

[Duke]

There must be some other way of dealing with an enitre country than simply blocking it. Isn't there some sort of extended checking one could do for orders placed from those countries? Require a different form of payment maybe?
There is.
When I signed up for Yahoo "Phone Out" service, I was taken to moneybookers.com who handle the payments for them, and they let me know that because I'm from a suspicious country, they need to check if that really was MY credit card I was using. So they create a small deduction from my CC (random amount between $0.01 and $1.99), and I need to log in and type the exact amount that was deducted from my account, thus prooving that I am the true owner of the credit card I'm trying to use.
This whole process took about a week for me, but I was happy with it b/c it's much better than what I get on many shop websites (absolute denial of service).

[Skinflint]

We definitely understand the negative feelings that this decision is generating. We don't like blocking anything based on country. I personally want anyone that wants to download and play a game from us to be able to do so, no matter where you are from.

The problem here is fraud. Our credit card processor, who in turn answers to VISA, needs us to get our fraud percentage down. We absolutely HAVE TO get our fraud percentage down or we risk getting dropped.

In doing research, we do NOT want to be dropped by a processor for fraud reasons. The consequences are enormous, especially when we are responsible for not only our site but a large affiliate network and the developers (whose games we are selling).

Our facts:

1) The few countries that we block have AT LEAST a 20% chargeback rate for all transactions that we have processed for that country. To put that in perspective, we would get dropped by VISA (not our processor, but VISA) if our overall chargeback percentage went over 1%. Some countries that we blocked had as high as 80%.

2) All countries blocked (besides Russia) DO NOT ISSUE international credit cards...so you can have a credit card there, but not if the address of the credit card holder is there. If you think about that for a second, it seems a bit odd to take a credit card from a country where they can't have one by definition.

In the end, is it unfair to block someone solely based on what country they are from? You bet it is, and I apologize to everyone affected by this, especially to those honest people that are just trying to play a game. We are still trying to figure out another way to analyze our data and decrease fraud from these countries. However, our fraud has to decrease or it will negatively impact our business going forward.

To other suggestions that we use other criteria besides originating country, the country that the sale occurs in has, by far, the highest correlation to fraud that we've found. We are still trying to filter this further so that we can use other information in addition to originating country to prevent fraud, but we are not yet seeing any correlations with the data that we can isolate.

[cyrus_zuo]

We do appreciate the feedback and are continuing to work to improve and change things as we have the ability to do so. I'd encourage any of our partners or would be partners who want to talk about this to email us. (mmei[at]reflexive.net) Michael works directly with affiliates as we try to improve our programs :).

[Davaris]

Like I said at Daz3D (and it was deleted) this "smart alec warez/hacker culture" you get in some countries needs to be actively discouraged/stamped out by the people that live in that country, or they risk being locked out of the system for a long time.

As I remember Steve Pavlina was forced to do it back when he was selling games. The figure he quoted was 98% of the credit card orders from some countries were fraudulent. :eek: That said it all for me.

As for the racism remarks, that's ridiculous. I'd take any one's money no matter what country they are from. The key word here is *money*. :)

[vjvj]

Those of you talking about racism need to educate yourselves. These decisions are being made at the national level, not the ethnic level.

Those are interesting statistics, Skin. Thanks for sharing, and best of luck trying to find a better system :(

[jankoM]

The problem here is fraud. Our credit card processor, who in turn answers to VISA, needs us to get our fraud percentage down. We absolutely HAVE TO get our fraud percentage down or we risk getting dropped.

Maybe you could use a different payment processor for such countries... for example moneybookers from UK supports a lot of more exotic countries and has a high emphasis on fraud protection and money loundring (you have to get allmost phisycally confirmed to start using it).

[Duke]

2) All countries blocked (besides Russia) DO NOT ISSUE international credit cards...so you can have a credit card there, but not if the address of the credit card holder is there. If you think about that for a second, it seems a bit odd to take a credit card from a country where they can't have one by definition.
This is not true for Serbia either. I have MC, Visa Classic and Visa Electron, with which I paid for goods and services both on Internet and while on vacation in Greece. I could also have Diners and American Express if I wish.
I'm not saying you should just delete Serbia from the list of banned countries. I heard many teenagers here use false cc data to purchase games and even clothes on the Internet. But here is what I can suggest:
1) Use moneybookers.com. Like I said in my previous post, they have a pretty good way to eliminate false orders.
2) The culprits in question usually get hold of cc database somewhere on the net, but the real owners of such credit cards are not from Serbia but from other countries. So you (or your processor) could make a filter which compares the country by IP and country on credit card. I still haven't heard of a fraudulent order with credit cards whose owners are from here (which doesn't mean that there are none, just that these cases are very rare).

[Jack Norton]

Can't you just block those countries at level of buynow process? so they can see site and download demos, but not buy? I guess with all the server you have, bandwidth isn't a big issue :rolleyes:
I know seems crazy (allowing people to download but not buy) but at least you won't be marked as racist!

[Davaris]

Can't you just block those countries at level of buynow process? so they can see site and download demos, but not buy?

Instead of buying they'd just focus on finding or making the cracks. :)

[sillytuna]

I don't know the figures, but I'd guess bandwidth is an issue. It's still a cost, it isn't free.

Decisions like this are made based upon the costs of supporting these countries and the requirements of payment processors. It's a common and growing problem unfortunately, and noone can blame Reflexive for making this decision.

However, it would be nice to support an alternative, even if the buy process did take longer / was more expensive. I'm sure it'd be of interest if people posted up the options they know about.

[val]

We do appreciate the feedback and are continuing to work to improve and change things as we have the ability to do so. I'd encourage any of our partners or would be partners who want to talk about this to email us. (mmei[at]reflexive.net) Michael works directly with affiliates as we try to improve our programs :).

I am already e-mailed to Michael :), and want to say that I completely support your decision. Although Mac users often come from very unusual places (like Russia, Malaysia, French Polinesia, Thailand, Taiwan, small Carribean islands etc) windows-traffic mostly should be re-directed to appropriate local portals.

Regular price for casual games in Russia is 3-3.5 USD, in China - 0.60 USD, India, Malaysia - about 2 USD. Why we should expect anyone will purchase games for 20 USD? Casual travellers only? It will never pay back traffic expences.

[DFG]

Can't you just block those countries at level of buynow process? so they can see site and download demos, but not buy? I guess with all the server you have, bandwidth isn't a big issue

Yes, this is what Trymedia does and is what has kept me from blocking via IP. Their DRM is pretty good and I haven't worried about cracks at all even if they do exist.

[Polycount Productions]

I was thinking of blocking every country except for the US as the US is the only country that buys my games. Hell even my own country doesn't buy my games so I'm going to block them as well. ;)

Lol, beware - you might not be able to reach your own site anymore :rolleyes:

[val]

The main problem that is discussed in Russian communities has no relation to Russian audience. Affilaite partners of Reflexive now have no access to Reflexive builds and materials etc. I do not know, but it was said that they have no direct access to sales reports etc too.

I do not know if it is true but it seems strange. I guess it's possible to set up separate interface for partners without IP filters. I believe that partners usually bring more money than they steal :)

[Skinflint]

Actually, our Russian affiliates should NOT affected by this. They can still download and sell games and access sales reports as normal.

If there are any of our affiliates that are experiencing any problems, they should contact Michael at mmei@reflexive.com

[yanuart]

Being someone who lives in one of those countries I have developed a very uncanny sense of tolerance against anything that throwed at me based on my nationality. Try applying visiting visa to western countries at the embassy then you'll know what I'm talking about.

This say that I believe Reflexive can do whatever they want as long they think it's good for them as stated in their explanations. But there are some weird reasonings behind these explanations though :
1. "All countries blocked (besides Russia) DO NOT ISSUE international credit cards".
I don't know about other countries and what does international cc actually means but I believe my Citibank Visa is pretty much international when I used it in other country when I travelled. I also used my cc to purchase drm softwares and subscribe to download.com service and it worked fine. We do have international/foreign banks here such as citibank, hsbc, stanchart, etc and with the fees they're charging I'd be damn if my cc can't be used internationally. We do have some local ccs issued by local banks but those ccs doesn't come with 16 digit numbers thus you can't use it in ecommerce. How can we create fraud orders if we cant even use those ccs ?

2. "The few countries that we block have AT LEAST a 20% chargeback rate"
I doubt there are lot of gamers or ppl here even know about Reflexive let alone download and make fraud order, heck most people here still use dialup or stuck with crappy internet connection,I can't imagine that their hobbies is to download casual games.
But maybe I'm wrong, could you share the data for Indonesia? even if it's ugly I'll take it, you can PM me with the numbers or even post it here. As a part of game developer community in my country, I really like to do something about what's going on. If your data says we're a bunch of shady customers I'd really like to share it to my fellow countrymen and say something like "Look.. this is what you do. It aint nice but it's f**ing real, so let's do something about it".
I also thought that fraud orders are things of the past, cc processor have ways to prevent that, such as using 3/4 extra digits or asking for the card holder's address.

This thing may not be a racist thing but it sure is profiling (sure when it comes to business everything is a-okay :D ) and it's a huge blow to developers like I do. It brings a bad interpretation and generalisation to any developer or people who actually want to do honest business from those countries.

There are other way which is a bit softer than just to block the whole website. Many korean MMOG publisher's website only allow people from korea to download&play their game cause they know ppl from other countries won't bother to subscribe and some of the games are even free with revenues only comes from ads or micro transactions. They need to max out their income by filtering out non-money-making-but-use-our-valuable-resource gamers from other countries but they do a good job without offending anyone.
You can visit their website normally to get infos on the game, screenshots, etc but when you try to download the game you'll be directed to an apology page with good words and even cute pictures saying they're sorry for doing that. Saying "Sorry, this game isn't licensed to be distributed in XXXXXX" is alot better than saying nothing and shut your door which may constitute as "we don't even want anything to do with you, please go away!".

[val]

Actually, our Russian affiliates should NOT affected by this. They can still download and sell games and access sales reports as normal.

Sorry. It was just a loose talk in russian games community.
Of course, these people could be from BY, for example.

Anyway, if all interfaces are available for Russian affilaite partners, this is great!

[Birukoff]

Hello all,
Yes, I know I am a bit late with this post and most of the following has already been said but - I registered here two days ago specially to take part in this discussion. Here I am, with my humble opinion after 48 hours of forced waiting (oh, stupid restrictions... ;) )

I work for one of the leading Russian game publishers - Akella, in acqusition department :cool: . Being a part of the industry, I totally support Reflexive's idea to keep unwanted fraudsters away.

Article 1. :D
Although we prefer to hunt for "big" games, from time to time we publish casual games too: puzzles, simple arcades and so on. Normally, indies are very satisfied with our conditions: we pay some money in advance (4 digits amounts on casual games).
Do you know how we find these games that we buy and publish? We browse the internet. Including the large websites such as the Reflexive's one. And what happens when I - as publisher - can't access some website? Some game developers lose money (may be, it was you last time).
Of course, one website doesn't change much but this is bad sign. If I would be you - developer - I would strongly express my discontent with this act of the Reflexive. Seriously.

Article 2.
What happens to the developer who could make satisfying results on the long-developed game? He loses interest and stops developing (not always but often). Another - new - developer comes in his stead.
What happens when new developer from banned counry cannot access a portal? He goes to another portal.
So, I believe that banning developers is not good for business in the long-term perspective.

Conclusion.
What could be the solution?
1) Yes, block only buying attempts but don't prevent people from viewing the website.
Or 2) Make extra checks when the buyer is from the suspicious country.
That's it.

PS: Look who is so discontent with this restriction around the world? Developers!
Fraudsters don't care because one can *easily* access the website via proxi.

[Shaz]

or maybe developers are expressing their opinions here and not fraudsters because this is a game developer website? I doubt we'll see anyone pop up and post "hey - I'm a fraudster and I think what Reflexive is doing really stinks!"

[esmelon]

I`m not undestand how this decision
can help Reflexive to fight with fraud. :confused:

Reflexive website is accessible through a proxy, and it`s not a problem
for fraudsters, and I would tell, especially for them.

[Bad Sector]

Moral: when people wanna do harm, they will do harm no matter what restrictions you make (frauds, cracks, pirating, etc) and trying to prevent things without thinking what you are really doing and the consequences, you're actually inviting more people to try to find problems for your solutions (applies to frauds, cracks and pirating).

The end is always the same: you make buyers' life harder for a futile attempt to put "bad people" out of your way. Yet, the bad people do not leave and you lose money and time (and with country blocking, reputation) by trying.

I think that instead on focusing how to decrease the loss by bad people, you should focus on increasing profit by good people so the loss does less harm.

[Pyabo]

I`m not undestand how this decision
can help Reflexive to fight with fraud. :confused:

Reflexive website is accessible through a proxy, and it`s not a problem
for fraudsters, and I would tell, especially for them.

I'll take that bet. I know *nothing* about Reflexive's setup or how they do business. But I'm willing to bet there is a significant drop in fraudulent orders from blocking these countries.

Would be interesting to see some results posted in a couple weeks.

[DFG]

Anyone used this tool for blocking IPs? Seems to generate an accurate list when cross checked with domaintools.com

blockacountry.com

[Thorbrian]

I'm willing to bet there is a significant drop in fraudulent orders from blocking these countries.

Would be interesting to see some results posted in a couple weeks.Why would you expect to need to wait a couple of weeks? :)

We had a 26% drop in reported fradulent activity (.21 vs. .29% chargeback due to fraud rate) after instituting the country blocking. i.e. about 1 in 4 prevented. Not huge, but I think it qualifies as "significant".

Moral: when people wanna do harm, they will do harm no matter what restrictions you makeI think you are absolutely correct. You can never have 100% protection from anything. However if it's harder to do harm, a lot of people won't bother - or might find some other place to bother with. That's half of the rationale behind blocking downloads for blocked countries - if it's harder to get the game, then maybe less people will bother to find out they want to fradulently buy it. The other half of the rationale is it seemed nicer to let people know sooner if we won't let them buy.

I think that instead on focusing how to decrease the loss by bad people, you should focus on increasing profit by good people so the loss does less harm.I couldn't agree with you more. However if fraud levels go too high, then credit card companies won't do business with you - and now you can't do business with the good people.

... However reading this thread, it seems like we may want to reconsider blocking reflexive.com from Russian IP's. The rationale at the time was completely one of the magnitude of downloads vs. sales - which had more to do with reducing some small financial loss and possibly discouraging attention from software pirates - as opposed to reducing the risk of losing our ability to accept credit cards.

[xelanoimis]

Well, I'd like to express my real feelings about this move of Reflexive, but that would be unpolite to post here. A few things though...

I am a developer from Romania and I was thinking to publish my future games through portals like Reflexive. At least to try it. But if more portals adopt this kind of behaviour... well, I should find some other options...

All this gives me a bitter taste, since it's already an issue here to deal with online payments. We DO HAVE international credit cards, that could be used to buy online. However, receiving money is a little harder. For example there are difficulties to receive money throug PayPal. But I heard this is common to other "respectable" countries as well.
MoneyBookers works well, I've heard.

I am not proud of things some people in my and other blocked countries do (hell I sometimes feel like moving in other country). They are individuals that, for you, represent only a bigger percent in the frauds. Of course, the easiest way to stop them (or at least some of them) is to block the whole country. It's all about numbers and percentage to a business.

However when it comes down to people, you DO INSULT the rest of these countries and, even if I understend this is the easyest way for you to fix the problem, I do feel insulted too. The Internet was supposed to be an open place and closing it down for a whole country is at least unfair.

It is not for me to tell you how to do it right, nor for other people that are not in your place. But it is for me, as a customer (or a developer) to tell you if I'm not satisfied with your services. You can either act on my feedback and improve them, or you can ignore me along with other unsatisfied customers.

In the end, I'd like to say that my hopes are for the best and this kind of moves will not spread and the Internet will remain a free and open place, for everybody.

[cliffski]

Some sales stats:

Usa 1800
United Kingdom 1162
Canada 213
Australia 148
Germany 70
Denmark 48
Sweden 44
Italy 38
France 36
Netherlands 35
Finland 30
Norway 26
Ireland 25
Spain 22
New Zealand 16
Turkey 15
South Africa 15
Poland 15
Portugal 14
Belgium 13
Mexico 13
Brazil 11
Greece 10
Singapore 10
Switzerland 9
Austria 9
Croatia 6
Hong Kong 5
Hungary 5
Israel 5
Russian Federation 5
United Arab Emirates 5
Japan 4
Slovenia 4
Romania 4
Indonesia 4
Slovak Republic 4
Estonia 4
Latvia 3
Philippines 3
Iceland 3
Cyprus 3
Korea 2
Chile 2
Jamaica 2
Venezuela 2
Bahamas 2
Malaysia 2
Serbia And Montenegro 2
Luxembourg 2
Channel Islands 2
Argentina 1
Macedonia 1
Kuwait 1
India 1
China 1
Egypt 1
Sri Lanka 1
Paraguay 1
Malta 1
Bahrain 1
Faroe Islands 1
Czech Republic 1
Lithuania 1
Belarus 1
Oman 1
Taiwan 1


Just to shed light on how minor a part of the market some countries are right now.

[Desktop Gaming]

Old thread, but anyway...

However when it comes down to people, you DO INSULT the rest of these countries and, even if I understend this is the easyest way for you to fix the problem, I do feel insulted too. The Internet was supposed to be an open place and closing it down for a whole country is at least unfair.Its perfectly fair when most people in that country think that piracy is OK. Hell, some places I've been to in Eastern Europe have high street shops with shelf upon shelf of pirated music CDs on sale, and nobody gives a toss. They're not challenged by the authorities.

No good complaining to Reflexive - its your country's fault for getting itself banned. I wasn't even aware they [Reflexive] did this until now, but its a good thing.
the Internet will remain a free and open place, for everybody.Unfortunately, a vast number of people from Russian-speaking countries take this sentiment a little too literally. Not saying Russian countries are the sole perpetrators, but they're certainly the hub of internet piracy.

[xelanoimis]

its your country's fault for getting itself banned.

Last time I checked, a country was made of a lot of people.
People do mistakes, not countries.
It's not the country who downloads or play games.

And since our government can't do better, what do you suggest?
That we all should take action and get on streets, killing people who pirate games or music?
Nope, I have to concentrate on making games.
It's not my business to fight piracy.

Anyway, I will no longer debate this.

[Desktop Gaming]

And since our government can't do better, what do you suggest?Acknowledging the existence of Copyright law would be a good start. :)
That we all should take action and get on streets, killing people who pirate games or music?Dunno, is that how they usually deal with criminals?

[cliffski]

Nope, I have to concentrate on making games.
It's not my business to fight piracy.


theres no point in doing one without the other surely? thats like being too busy selling to take the customers money.

[papillon]

... aren't most of us too busy selling to take the customer's money, leaving that up to our payment providers? :)

*ducks and runs*

[Andy]

... However reading this thread, it seems like we may want to reconsider blocking reflexive.com from Russian IP's. The rationale at the time was completely one of the magnitude of downloads vs. sales - which had more to do with reducing some small financial loss and possibly discouraging attention from software pirates - as opposed to reducing the risk of losing our ability to accept credit cards.

Thorbrian, pardon! You've got no any signature nor any info in your profile. This is why I'm curious if you represent Reflexive or any another company.

[jankoM]

Hell, some places I've been to in Eastern Europe have high street shops with shelf upon shelf of pirated music CDs on sale

Can I ask what country was this in?

(I might need some CDs for Christmas)

[Pogacha]

Go to any country on the 3rd world.

[Spaiz]

Can I ask what country was this in?

(I might need some CDs for Christmas)

Go to Russia, we have big stores filled with pirated music, video and games for 5 - 10 bucks each. This is really bad, but Russian citizen with wage of 500 - 700 bucks per month can't afford himself to buy non-pirated products. Government tries to fight with piracy, but this is much like civilian war, no one wins. Same thing about any other Eastern European country, which is much poorer then Russia. (Oh! Try to go to China, here is the mansion of evil!)

[Desktop Gaming]

This is really bad, but Russian citizen with wage of 500 - 700 bucks per month can't afford himself to buy non-pirated products.I can't afford a Ferrari. Does that make it OK for me to go out and steal one? No, I just have to live without it.

[cliffski]

some of the wealthiest people in the UK are Russian-born billionaires. there is no major shortage of cash in Russia, it's just some people seem to have amassed most of it and keep hold of it.
If i could sell my games at different prices to different people depending on their country of origin that would be great, but we all know the web doesn't work that way. Thanks to web proxies, you can pretend to be from anywhere.
And people complain like crazy if you charge them more than someone else, regardless who that someone else may be, or what their earnings are.

Maybe in 10 years time Russia will not be so tolerant of piracy, and the situation will change. I wish countries like Sweden would do something about their piracy problem too. How hard would it be to get a dozen police officers to go sling the people running thepiratebay in a cell?

[Desktop Gaming]

How hard would it be to get a dozen police officers to go sling the people running thepiratebay in a cell?I think Rapidshare is a bigger problem.

I've got sick of reporting pirated games on there. The whole thing is out of control.

[cliffski]

rapidshare can be clunky for big things, and you need a premium account really. thepiratebay is just *too* easy. Them being shut down is inevitable. I'm very surprised they have not been arrested yet.

[Spaiz]

some of the wealthiest people in the UK are Russian-born billionaires. there is no major shortage of cash in Russia, it's just some people seem to have amassed most of it and keep hold of it.


There is a big gap between welthiest minority and remaining majority in Russia.

Hey, you talking about piratebay and rapidshare, hmm, then add this source to your list: http://www.astatalk.com/viewforum.php?f=13 Awful things are happening there...this is really sad to be honest...

[cliffski]

nice link. pity that with ctrl+a ctrl+c ctrl+v and then a sort command, you can instantly amass a list of all those for instant reporting to the rapidshare abuse department.
I think a few game pirates will be busy re-uploading all of tomorrow...
I'd happily support the death sentence for scumbags like that ;(

[Borundin]

I wish countries like Sweden would do something about their piracy problem too. How hard would it be to get a dozen police officers to go sling the people running thepiratebay in a cell?

There was an "attempt" to close it down over a year ago. But one could wish there was a little more being done about this probelm :rolleyes:
The text below was taken from one of the more well known swedish anti piracy organisations.


http://www.antipiratbyran.com/index.htm?id=news&p=p20#20

The Pirate Bay shut down

Police made a number of raids today, the 31th of May 2006, on the premises where The Pirate Bay runs its operations. At 12.30 the website, thepiratebay.org, was shut down.
Until yesterday, the Pirate Bay was the centre for a large portion of the world’s illegal file sharing. According to The Pirate Bay’s own information there were over one million users who could upload and download films, music and games. With its size and expressed goals to expose and ridicule the respective original creators, The Pirate Bay became known worldwide. Sweden became internationally known as a haven for those who violated copyright laws on the Internet. This was economically exploited for the widespread sales of advertising, porn ads, and for collecting donations.

It is good that the Swedish police are now prioritizing this type of criminality. It is copyright law that finances the new creation of films, computer games, music and other cultural products. People who violate copyright law are stealing from the creators of the future and from the movie-going public. Therefore, the closing of The Pirate Bay is good for all of us who appreciate new films and entertainment, says Henrik Pontén, a lawyer at The Swedish Anti-Piracy Bureau.

[stampoutpiracy]

http://www.astatalk.com/viewforum.php?f=13 Awful things are happening there...this is really sad to be honest...

Site isn't working anymore - what a shame, something must have happened :)

[datxcod]

Site isn't working anymore - what a shame, something must have happened :)

Works fine for me, it's amazing how they categorize the type of games: time management, hidden object games, they even have a thread containing almost 200 games from bigfish and reflexive.

I also read that they are going to open a new category called "cliffski games".

[gpetersz]

... I rather took it out, no use for these kind of arguments. :)

[cliffski]

its not banning half the world, its about 0.5% according to my sales stats. Yes there are a lot of people there, but none of them buy games (I don't ban any countries).
And I have my games for sale in retail in Russia, yet they are still pirated. Lets face facts, its assumed that games are free in some countries.
Still, I think the problem isn't really russian crackers and hackers, the problem is websites that are hosted in countries that don't respect IP, and which ISPs do not block en masse. (Why cant every major backbone provider just blacklist thepiratebay?). The other problem is free anonymous file hosting, 99.99% of which is used to distribute copyrighted content.

My next game will use on-line server validation. I am surprised every new game does not do so. Casual piracy of games is out of control.

[stampoutpiracy]

Works fine for me, it's amazing how they categorize the type of games: time management, hidden object games, they even have a thread containing almost 200 games from bigfish and reflexive.

Yes, site seems to be working again now.
Just reported over 200 game links to rapidshare from their forums, which should be taken down this afternoon. That should upset them a bit ;)

[datxcod]

My next game will use on-line server validation. I am surprised every new game does not do so. Casual piracy of games is out of control.

Well because it fully depends on portals. For most people the only chance of making good profits from a game is selling it through portals but it's well known that they use lame protection schemes, so until they change the situation we will still see loads of pirated casual games. Eerily enough, most casual developers don't seem to bother about having their games pirated, some even feel honored (!). It's in the portals hands.

[Andy]

Yes, site seems to be working again now.
Just reported over 200 game links to rapidshare from their forums, which should be taken down this afternoon. That should upset them a bit ;)

stampoutpiracy! Is it OK if I'll ask what games have you published?
I see indie gamer badge in your posts...

[Escapee]

I think most developers owe a big thanks to the efforts of stampoutpiracy.

To show your appreciation ... :)
http://www.stampoutpiracy.com/donate.htm

[Adrian Cummings]

I for one commend their efforts (with or without a badge!)

[Desktop Gaming]

My next game will use on-line server validation. I am surprised every new game does not do so.Considered such a thing myself, but you have to commit to long-term support and maintenance of it.

But you need a bespoke system. I don't see the point of using Armadillo and the like, when anything 'protected' by it gets cracked within five minutes of release.

[stampoutpiracy]

stampoutpiracy! Is it OK if I'll ask what games have you published?
I see indie gamer badge in your posts...

We are Indie developers ourselves who have a number of games published and are known by our developer name on these forums.

Thanks also to Escapee and Adrian for their kind words :)

[Applewood]

And since our government can't do better, what do you suggest? Well, banning said country until they can ?

Nobody has a god-given right to access everything that somebody posts to the internet. If you're unhappy with how your government behaves, or how 3rd parties personally deal with that behaviour, then change your government.

It's just not our problem - it's yours, sorry.

I won't be selling anything in any country that has a culture of "pirate=good" and I care not a jot how reasonable-sounding their defence of that attitude is.

[Andy]

We are Indie developers ourselves who have a number of games published and are known by our developer name on these forums.

May I ask what is your developer name and what are that games?..

REM: Does this sounds a little bit shady just for me? Who was the moderator who gave "Indie Author" badge to the guy?
:confused:

[Pogacha]

I won't be selling anything in any country that has a culture of "pirate=good" and I care not a jot how reasonable-sounding their defence of that attitude is.
I wouldn't judge Reflexive or anyone who is forced to take a decision like that, it's business, not charity.

Your first lines, are hard but true, and represents exactly the world we live in, but he can't change the government, he was born in an unfortunate country and it's not his fault.

So sorry, but I think your approach is wrong. You don't sell games to a country, you are selling games to individuals, and putting all together in the same bag is nothing but discrimination.

If you have to stop selling games to a country it should be because it's not worthwhile, not because you think all the people in a country should go to the hell because of a cultural behavior of the majority.

I hope I just got you wrong.

[Applewood]

Your first lines, are hard but true, and represents exactly the world we live in, but he can't change the government, he was born in an unfortunate country and it's not his fault.
...
So sorry, but I think your approach is wrongYou said it right there, it's a shame for him. My sense of fair play doesn't extend to letting him buy a game at the expense of 100 of his compatriots ripping it off.

If you have to stop selling games to a country it should be because it's not worthwhile, not because you think all the people in a country should go to the hell because of a cultural behavior of the majority.In the case of software, these are sadly one and the same thing.

I hope I just got you wrong.I think you got me bang on. I'm sorry if you think this makes me a bigot, but if an entire country is being singled out over something, then I think this indicates there might actually be a real problem, not just some individuals petty bias.

[stampoutpiracy]

Don't mean to take this thread off topic but . . .

May I ask what is your developer name and what are that games?..

REM: Does this sounds a little bit shady just for me? Who was the moderator who gave "Indie Author" badge to the guy?

I've PM'ed you. Most people will know who we are but we use the StampOutPiracy username whenever we post about piracy. This is to keep our indie game business and our anti-piracy work completely separate for obvious reasons.

[Pogacha]

You said it right there, it's a shame for him. My sense of fair play doesn't extend to letting him buy a game at the expense of 100 of his compatriots ripping it off.
I not saying the opposite. If it didn't worth to sell a product you wouldn't sell it at all, and if it didn't worth to sell a product in some place, you aren't obligated to do it. Also even when it might worth but you don't want to do it because you don't want to feed piracy, because it hurts your business or just don't want people enjoy your efforts for free, you have all the rights to do it without being judged, provided that there isn't any other better way to handle the problem with the same results (in our case is inexistent).

I won't be selling anything in any country that has a culture of "pirate=good"
This line sounded bad to me.
What I wanted to point, is that all the people in a country cannot be judged by the conduct of a small or big group of them.
But based on what you said in your last post I guess I just got you wrong, sorry if I made you feel judged.

[cliffski]

it would be great if IP-blocking could only block hackers and pirates, but sadly it doesn't. We all want the same thing, to sell games to anyone who might buy them, and not waste effort on bandwidth on people who will not do so.

[Andy]

it would be great if IP-blocking could only block hackers and pirates, but sadly it doesn't. We all want the same thing, to sell games to anyone who might buy them, and not waste effort on bandwidth on people who will not do so.


So following by your logic everyone who just played a demo is thief too?.
Do you leave the option that someone just didn't like your game after trying it?

[Andy]

Don't mean to take this thread off topic but . . .
I've PM'ed you. Most people will know who we are but we use the StampOutPiracy username whenever we post about piracy. This is to keep our indie game business and our anti-piracy work completely separate for obvious reasons.

I don't think this goes offtopic at all. I'd like to know in person peoples blaming my whole country, all peoples living here.
This would be useful for guys here to know who is that person and know what games he is trying to protect so loudly.

I'm sorry that you are so pissing off to show at public who you are.

To moderators: Is it OK that they duplicate their accounts and use the same Indie Author badge for every their new account?

[cliffski]

So following by your logic everyone who just played a demo is thief too?.
Do you leave the option that someone just didn't like your game after trying it?


of course I do. if people MIGHT buy the game, I want them to try it. That's what I said. If people are pirates I don't care if they like the game or not, i dont even want them to try it.

[stampoutpiracy]

I don't think this goes offtopic at all. I'd like to know in person peoples blaming my whole country, all peoples living here.
This would be useful for guys here to know who is that person and know what games he is trying to protect so loudly.

I'm sorry that you are so pissing off to show at public who you are.

Just to make our point clear here.
We only joined this topic of conversation because a warez site was mentioned. We haven't got into any discussion about blaming peoples countries.

To moderators: Is it OK that they duplicate their accounts and use the same Indie Author badge for every their new account?

The moderators were informed that we were creating another account. We didn't ask for the Indie Author badge to be associated with the account. To be honest, it's not relevant to StampOutPiracy anyway. If moderators want to remove it, then please feel free. I won't be losing any sleep over if I've got a small graphic next to my username.

[Andy]

We only joined this topic of conversation because a warez site was mentioned. We haven't got into any discussion about blaming peoples countries.

Yeah? Really? But why your messages say opposite if so?..
You started to attack and insult the peoples here who aren't in any charge for a problem.

Anyway I kept silence pretty long and should continue really. I was just wondering to know what are you trying to protect so hard. Now I'm silence again. This just has no any sense to argue to deafs...

[stampoutpiracy]

Now this is getting silly . . .

You started to attack and insult the peoples here who aren't in any charge for a problem

I can't see in any posts made by StampOutPiracy where we have insulted people. We only mentioned that we had reported a certain amount of illegal links from the warez site. That's it. We haven't got into a conversation about anything else apart from the Indie Author badge.

[Adrian Cummings]

Good old Andy somewhat controversial as ever due to the language barrier again no doubt.

Can't believe peeps are still going on about fecking badges... anybody wants one can have mine for free? - I did'nt even ask for mine either it was awarded to me.

As for country based issues I'm not going there... I produce computer games and am not a politician or diplomat, though perhaps anybody with an ounce of sense can conclude if you have a sucky govenment running the show in your particular country then vote them out next election! - afterall they are the overall government body repsonsible for how such issues (like piracy and internet fraud) are addressed with bills and policies are they not in your region?

[Andy]

I can't see in any posts made by StampOutPiracy where we have insulted people. We only mentioned that we had reported a certain amount of illegal links from the warez site. That's it. We haven't got into a conversation about anything else apart from the Indie Author badge.

This is why I was trying to figure out the truth.
But looks like you made everything to hide yourselves.

Is that DesktopGaming of yours? Or is he some another stamper?

Why you use "we" when you say we mentioned, we haven't got into conversation and so on?.. Are there a couple of you behind this account?.. :confused:

PS Adrian. Sure thing you can convert everyting into language issue again. But some of these guys just colored all peoples living in my country into bullshit. You supported them above. Now let me to figure out what part of yours made this on purpose and what part just made mistake. Thanks.

[dma]

But some of these guys just colored all peoples living in my country into bullshit.

You may be just a little too sensitive about this. Afterall, I live in the US, and as everyone knows, ALL Americans are stupid, fat, lazy, and watch (or are actually guests on) Jerry Springer. (I was only a guest on Jerry's show twice, so I'm way below the national average.)

;)

[jcottier]

I have been really impress by how you guys took it. I think you can be proud of yourself, you did stay polite and reserved. If that had happened to the american or british or french or whatever... trust me, most of them would have been very rude about it...

I think reflexive is free to do whatever they want to protect their business. But there is no doubt this is deeply insulting for the people leaving in these countries. So there is no need to insult them more on these forums.

You have all the right to be upset.

JC

[Maupin]

I think reflexive is free to do whatever they want to protect their business. But there is no doubt this is deeply insulting for the people leaving in these countries.

I don't see it as "deeply insulting" at all. It's like telling my grandmother, "Look Grandma, every time I visit your part of town I get mugged. I'm sorry, but I can't keep visiting you."

My understanding of the situation is that if Reflexive continued to pass along such a high percentage of fraudulent orders, their payment processor and/or VISA would drop them, leaving them with no way to sell games. To anyone. In any country.

Hopefully they're looking for other ways to verify genuine orders or weed out fraudulent orders.

[Desktop Gaming]

This is why I was trying to figure out the truth.
But looks like you made everything to hide yourselves.

Is that DesktopGaming of yours? Or is he some another stamper?
Not sure why you're having such a temper tantrum over this, but just to clarify Desktop Gaming is nothing to do with stampoutpiracy.com (other than actively supporting what they do).

I trust you don't have a problem with this. But even if you do, I don't much care to be honest.

:)

[Adrian Cummings]

PS Adrian. Sure thing you can convert everyting into language issue again. But some of these guys just colored all peoples living in my country into bullshit. You supported them above. Now let me to figure out what part of yours made this on purpose and what part just made mistake. Thanks.

Hi Andy,

I do support what they stand for 100% yes, as it is a good cause that benefits many if not all here.

Other than that I'm neutral pretty much on everything else mentioned here as it's out of my personal domain so to speak.

Just out of interest tho Andy, do you write and produce your own computer games listed on your site or do you just publish/aggregate other peoples games etc.?... only ask, because I am suprised you do not have a badge yet yourself.

I hope to visit Russia one day with my wife, I have heard that it is an interesting place to visit and is rich in culture.

[Andy]

I have been really impress by how you guys took it. I think you can be proud of yourself, you did stay polite and reserved. If that had happened to the american or british or french or whatever... trust me, most of them would have been very rude about it...

I think reflexive is free to do whatever they want to protect their business. But there is no doubt this is deeply insulting for the people leaving in these countries. So there is no need to insult them more on these forums.

You have all the right to be upset.

JC

I'm in honour to meet at least some support with this. Thanks jcottier!

I don't care about reflexive decision itself. Sure thing this is their right. But rants of some members on the latest pages here illustrate in details what nazy's feelings could feed such "business decisions".

I must to say Sorry to stampoutpiracy. Link to your site in DesktopGaming's signature made me think wrong that you are all connected and that he represents the official opinion of your unity. Please pardon me for this!

PS Adrian! We made at-home all the games on our websites. Anyway this wasn't any discussion about Indie Author badges. I've just noticed that guy without any games or websites in his signature got such badge from the first appearance in the forums. But StampOut has explained in details how this happened and his explanation was pretty reasonable for me.

[Adrian Cummings]

OK great then although it's off topic I vote (for what it's worth) the mods and higher council here should award you a badge for your efforts and also as a token gesture against any rudeness you feel you have had to put up with.

I'm English and proud of it and would also probably feel put out if I were at the same end of the intercontinental stick here.

[Desktop Gaming]

I think this would be a good place to lock this topic. Pretty sure we don't want this lot flaring up again six months from now.

[xelanoimis]

I agree about locking the topic.
The protest was made and debated.

It looks like these countries will stay blocked for now, anyway.
Reflexive guys are free to use whathever means they can, to do their business.
...however, I don't see Microsoft blocking sales in these countries, but I see them at my office door, checking licences. ( just being mean :p )

As for goverments, me and other like myself can go and vote goverments all day, not that it would do much good too soon.
However, are americans so proud of their government, since they keep voting the same kind of guys, over and over?

[Spaiz]

Yes! Let's lock this topic and open a new one about piracy. Let's discuss this problem!

[svero]

Hrm.. Topic sort of went nuts here and kinda personal. Nationalism is one of those things like IQ. People get sensitive if you start posting stats. Lock it is....