Are we just rolling around in our own filth? [Archive] - Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards

Coyote

11-05-2006, 04:12 PM

Are we simply rehashing a business ... or are we striving towards a utopian future?
None of the above?

I guess the volume of traffic here is probably more of the guys who are making casual games... indie games and casual games are subsets with a fairly sizeable intersection. I wish 'em well, but those aren't the games I want to make. I've got a game-development day job that pays the bills, so I can afford to do my own thing.

Am I striving for a utopian future? Well, no. Quite frankly, Sturgeon's Law applies to indie games as much as anything out. Whether it's a casual game or some 13-year-old's vision of a World-of-Warcraft-killer, 98% of everything coming from indies is crap, and will always be crap.

Big Deal.

My only utopian vision of the future is one where nobody feels they aren't allowed to TRY. Where big fat suit-wearing gamekeepers aren't sitting on the gates saying, "You must be at least THIS rich to ride." I don't particularly care for the level of crap that will be exuding from the community ... from lamentable Aquanoid and Bejewelled clones to the half-completed RPGMaker experiments that feel like the developer got bored and quit halfway through development. But I want those to be allowed so that the 2% that has a chance of really shining can get made. And can hopefully have a place to shine and get noticed by customers who will enjoy them.

And of course, I hope to be among the 2%. But hey, if I'm gonna dream...

Anthony Flack

11-05-2006, 04:26 PM

What Coyote said.

princec

11-05-2006, 04:47 PM

Aye to that.

I'll just keep doing my own thing and bedamned.

Cas :)

Applewood

11-05-2006, 04:48 PM

I can design my own game and create and sell it myself. What's filthy or not serious about that?
Well, no-one's gonna buy it ?

It seriously dismays me why indie games make so little money in general. And also why soccer moms are seen as the only market. Maybe the two are linked.

Here's the kicker though: "Indie" is not a replacement/alternative for a real job. You can slag off all those mainstream companies all you want, but the bit the romanticists seem to skip over is that at least in that job you get a decent to very good wage that you can get a good life from. I know about five people off the top of my head who make money doing this, the rest are all skint or working a separate job and killing themselves with their indie stuff on top.

A lot of people will tell you this is a great way to "earn a living" but most of them live with their parents and mom buys their computers. If that's you too, then great - give it a whirl. When you want to buy your own home though, don't expect to do so from receipts of indie games unless you're both very lucky and very talented.

Hamumu

11-05-2006, 05:21 PM

I don't know why anyone would say this is a great way to earning a living. That's ridiculous. But it is definitely a great way to live!

Christian

11-05-2006, 06:30 PM

I agree with what sonicron says, and i want to add something.
I belive there is an absolute lack of knowledge about game design among indie devs, or they dont care to learn, or they have miss-conceptions, or they belive that what they know is enough, or simply are ignorant that it is a huge subject to learn and that its the most important thing that sells games.
So i belive there is a fear in learning game design, a fear to try new designs, a fear to create, so they choose copy/clone games, they belive this is the safest, well, the safest is understanding and making concious choices to create new and good things people might buy, but you cant make concious and intelligent choices when you are ignorant about what you are doing, wich is creating games.

Drake

11-05-2006, 08:12 PM

I think the forum should have a "No Stairway" rule. It would read something like this:

"Absolutely NO Art-vs-Commerce or Risk-vs-Reward threads. You know where you stand, don't worry about everyone else, get the f*** back to work. Thank you, the Mgmt."

Anthony Flack

11-05-2006, 08:48 PM

What Christian said.

Taking a chance with an original design is not a recommended strategy for success. But I do think that on the whole, it's mostly because designing games is difficult and most of us aren't as good at it as we'd like to believe.

Writing a mediocre game is not a strategy for success.

Davaris

11-05-2006, 09:41 PM

And of course, I hope to be among the 2%. But hey, if I'm gonna dream...

Give up the hope of being popular and you'll be a lot happier. Just make your own crap and assume it won't sell. The majority of artists are never successful and even if they are, it is rarely in their lifetimes. :)

zoombapup

11-06-2006, 02:53 AM

Thanks for not letting this spiral into a thread of woe guys..

I think actually there are some very rational arguments here.

I think Applewood is absolutely right. Making a living means actually making a *decent profit*. Not 500 sales, not even 1000. To make a reasonable living AND a profit on top to grow a business (which is what most businesses need) you have to make say 10% profit on top of expenses.

Expenses being:

1) Your pay
2) Paying for artwork
3) Paying for business costs like offices, phones etc.

So lets do some maths here. Lets assume a medium salary of say £40k (this is in uk, multiply by 1.8 for US dollar values) per person.

So we start off small and have 1 guy by himself.

Lets assume we start with a small office, you can let those services offices in most micro business places for say £30 a week. So thats rent of around £120 for rent per month. Add on another £80 for various expenses (phone, national insurance etc).

Lets assume you spend say $15k on graphics for your game over the year (this is taken from James G saying he spent something like that on feeding frenzy, its probably at the low end). Convert that from USD to GBP = £8350

So we have per year..

£40k salary
£200 * 12 months costs = £2400.
Artist payments = £8350.

So in total, you have to make £50,750, which equates to around $91,350. Thats to simply survive. To actually make a profit... you need 10% more, or another 9,135 gbp or 16,443 dollars.

So lets break that down into sales.

Lets assume a $20 price tag. Lets assume you get $15 of that.

So you take your $91,350 and divide it by $15 and you get 6090 sales. That is DIRECT sales. That is from your own site, direct, no middle man taking a chunk.

Lets work out the same thing via portals. Lets say from a $20 sale you get say... oh, $8? I guess thats generous? Anyway, lets go with that.. so for your PROFIT, you need to get over 11,418 sales.

So reading Andy Shatz's take on things.. something like 350 direct sales? Something like say 500-800 affiliates? You better hope andy got a LOT more sales via the retail route.

My point isnt to be negative. My point is that I think Applewood is trying to inject some common sense into things by pointing out that indies need to sell a lot more.

I simply couldnt sustain a business doing that kind of sales. So what sense is there in continuing?

Well, for one, I do it because I enjoy making games, I also actually appreciate the indie spirit and I like the indie crowd, naieve though it may be.

I also actually think that the multiplication effect comes in. As Andy says, his first title wasnt stellar, but it will sell for ages AND when his next one comes along, it starts cross selling. Then the next etc.

Finally, I have a day job, so for me, this isnt life or death. I'd be REALLY scared to do this fulltime without a much clearer plan though.

Myself and my business partner both are reasonbly well paid, so we are funding our startup from our own pockets. We both realize the key is to not expect to do all the work ourselves, but to find people to hire who can work for us.

The key for us, is to actually work on products that have a wider audience or a more solid sales hook. That is, we need to work on projects that are worth people's interest. Projects that arent just the same as anyone else, but actually give us the opportunity to monetize different streams of revenue.

Actually, I think Andy is pretty rational in his approach. Dont expect super sales on your first product. Or even your second, but build up a portfolio that cross sells like hell.

All this btw.. has NOTHING to do with Air Ace. Which is another beast entirely (and almost entirely irrational from a business sense).

Thanks for the reading though guys.

princec

11-06-2006, 06:22 AM

Brings back happy memories of the infamous "Light for the n00bs" thread.

Damn but I wish I could make more money out of my games. I'd love to quit the day job and do it but the money's just not there for some reason.

Cas :)

papillon

11-06-2006, 06:28 AM

Lets assume a medium salary of say £40k

This may make sense to those of you who had well-paid industry jobs, but imagine the indie market from the perspective of an junior office admin's salary and the figures change.... :)

princec

11-06-2006, 06:34 AM

Good point. Figures look very different for a 21yr old graduate looking at £15k salary with no perks, shit holiday, and probably a crappy commute as well.

Cas :)

Applewood

11-06-2006, 07:04 AM

Do they ? (Honest question)

The impression I get from people around here is that the average game makes about 2 grand in sales if you're lucky. And (generally) a 21yr old office admin isn't gonna make games anything like the speed or complexity you could expect from that 20 year industry veteran either.

I'm not arguing, I *want* to be wrong. I'd love to do this, but I just can't afford to.

princec

11-06-2006, 07:10 AM

Well, yeah you're right there, I've never made more than a couple of grand profilt in the entire span of Puppygame's lifetime. But the goal of reaching £15k is a lot more achievable looking than £40k and especially at the tender age of 21 it sounds like a lot of money anyway. And you probably live with mum still ;)

I'm still mightily fucked off that I can't make a living out of Titan, which on the right sites sells 50 copies a day (not too bad eh). Trouble is getting that sort of traffic seems bloody hard, even with a few choice affiliates.

And then there's the difference between Titan and Ultratron: Titan outsells Ultartron roughly by a factor of 10:1 at the moment but in its heyday it only outsold it by 2:1. Grr.

Cas :)

PoV

11-06-2006, 07:22 AM

I like my happy butterfly world where Indie games are a profitable business option better. Your bleak reality world sucks. :p

papillon

11-06-2006, 07:23 AM

There's cost-of-living to take in as well. Having spent so much time getting British citizenship, now I'm mumbling all the time about trying to get back OUT of the country, somewhere where the rents are more sane... :)

I'm not 21 anymore, and £40k still looks like a figure enormous enough for me to wonder what one DOES with all that (except that I am in England, so I can easily answer the question with 'Housing costs!' Me, I live in a garret.)

edit: oi! I'm more properly referred to as a melodramatic butterfly!

Applewood

11-06-2006, 07:34 AM

Chris Evans

11-06-2006, 07:35 AM

This is something I've thought about the past couple of months. I think it's that the meaning of "Self-Publish" has been lost. We spend almost 100% of our time and budgets on development. 4 - 12 months developing the game and $2,00 - 10,000 for art, sound, and other game assets. Then when it comes time for marketing it might get a couple weeks of intense effort (if that) and the marketing budget rarely exceeds $120, which basically includes a single press release and a little experimentation with Adwords.

With this strategy you're essentially putting all your hopes on getting some favorable reviews and hoping that it catches fire via word of mouth. When Zoombapup made all those calculations of expenses where was the marketing budget? How much will be allocated for banner ads or sponsorships? How much will be allocated for conducting special promotional events or contests related to your game? How much will be allocated for creating nice press kits to send to the media? These are just the basic things most retail game publishers do all the time but Indie self-publishers hardly ever do even on a small scale.

Sometimes you can find free ways to get exposure like with download sites a few years back but things are constantly involving. I think anyone who's started making games the past 2 years should have known going in that download sites are pretty worthless these days (at least for the PC) and that getting adequate exposure would require a more comprehensive marketing strategy.

Obviously if you're making games for portals you're not self-publishing, you're basically a content provider. But for those who are actually attempting to self-publish (where direct sales are your focal point), start acting like an actual publisher for your games. Think of yourself as two entities, a developer and a publisher. Once your game is done, go in full publisher mode and execute and follow through with your marketing plan.

I think Jack is on the right path with this thread (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=8932) about running and effectively tracking ad campaigns. I'm starting to do the same. Cliffski has done a great job with the Kudos and Democracy ad banner campaigns. The ads effectiveness isn't always judged based purely off the Click-thru rate and subsequent conversions. Seeing the Kudos banners repeatedly will also make you more likely to click on a Kudos news article or a demo link elsewhere. These things are hard to measure, but it happens. If you're trying to build a long-term business, these are some of things you have to do.

I've recently gotten a loan and instead of just dumping everything into development, I plan to allocate a sizable amount to marketing. Great games usually find a way to sell regardless and usually require less marketing. But as others have said that's usually only the top 1% of games released. Ideally with smart marketing, if you have a couple of solid games you should still be able to have some decent income if you create some actual marketing milestones. Even if you lose money advertising/promoting with the first couple of games, by the third and fourth games hopefully you've built-up a customer list that you can continue to draw from with minimal cost.

So I don't think an Indie Business is a farce, but you should probably know these things before jumping in:

a) Your first 1-2 games will most likely be unprofitable. So make sure you're in a financial situation to stick it out for awhile. Many successful businesses are unprofitable the first couple of years, so that in itself shouldn't scare you.

b) What works today, may not work tomorrow. Be prepared to handle the shifting market.

c) Self-publishing means you're actually responsible for publishing your game. Just because you're free from a big Overlord Publisher doesn't mean the publishing duties for your game can be shirked.

d) The more your game displays the "Indie Spirit", the better chance you have at standing out from the rest of the crowd. Meaning, if you do a match-3 or a generic looking racer or FPS, then very few are going to care or get excited about your game. But if you do a car combat game with kung-fu fighting nazi bunnies, some people will notice and probably enjoy your twisted humor.

e) Once you go casual and have some success, you'll probably never go back. It's been mentioned a million times on these boards, "I'm just going to do a couple of casual games to build up financial capital so I can eventually make bigger 'core' games." Yet, I can't think of a single case study where a dev had success with casual games and then went back exclusively to core games. Basically be careful with what success you're aiming for. Once you attain it, that's mostly likely what you'll be locked into. So don't start a big casual game production unless you don't mind the possibility of doing casual games for the next 2-4 years.

EDIT: Also be aware that while you're content providing for portals, your own customer list and website presence will grow at tortoise speeds.

Applewood

11-06-2006, 07:54 AM

You make some great points there and I agree with everything you said.

The trouble for most of us though is that we're programmers, not publishers. To do that stuff well it needs to be learned in as much depth as the development. In reality you'll need to get someone else to do it if you want it done well, which adds a lot (too much) to the cost of development for small time independents.

Basically, most people can't do it and can't afford for someone else to either as the difference it would make is still academic.

Nexic

11-06-2006, 08:04 AM

With my set of qualifications I'd be lucky to land a 10k/year, no perks job in the 'real' world. So what I make as an indie doesn't seem THAT bad in comparison.

soniCron

11-06-2006, 08:24 AM

To do that stuff well it needs to be learned in as much depth as the development. Any effort at all would be more than most indies invest. You can't learn something if you don't try, and you don't need to be a marketing guru to make a noticable hit in your sales. Frankly, most developers can't be bothered to devote as much time marketing the game as they do developing, and that is at the risk of their own peril.

If programmers programmed like they marketed, they'd write a couple comments and complain all they got was a blank screen! :rolleyes: It's not for lack of skill - it's lack of effort.

Ricardo C

11-06-2006, 08:42 AM

If programmers programmed like they marketed, they'd write a couple comments and complain all they got was a blank screen!

It's sad because it's true.

princec

11-06-2006, 08:43 AM

Actually, your tale saddens me too - you were one of my "five", or so I thought! You've certainly got a decent amount of games punted out. If you're struggling to make any real money, it doesn't bode well.

Enjoy it while you're young and can get away with it though. Maybe that next game will be the monster! :)
</condescension>
I'm not so young any more... also finding myself and my plans fucked to kingdom come through women troubles. Haven't written a line of game code since. Hopefully will get life back together enough to continue but I really have to ask myself whether it's worth it now. All that time for a few thousand quid.

Cas :)

Jack Norton

11-06-2006, 08:48 AM

Cas, sell your house and escape to NZ - there you can live even with your currently indie sales! :D
Beside, if you don't know, the ratio between women and men there is 3:1, so... !

princec

11-06-2006, 08:51 AM

It's sad because it's true.
So where are all the indie marketeers? There's plenty of artists and musicians about and quite a lot of those even work for a share on the game (preferred method for me as it's fair) but the only marketeer I know of is Joe and he's just buggered off leaving us high and dry. I'd dearly like to go thirds on someone to simply spend their entire time trying to make money from my products but no-one is willing to take on the challenge.

Cas :)

princec

11-06-2006, 08:58 AM

Cas, sell your house and escape to NZ - there you can live even with your currently indie sales! :D
Beside, if you don't know, the ratio between women and men there is 3:1, so... !
Oh great, so the island is full of them :/ And here's me trying to avoid them, like, forever.

Cas :)

papillon

11-06-2006, 09:04 AM

But what about the ratio of men to sheep?

michalczyk

11-06-2006, 10:01 AM

The trouble for most of us though is that we're programmers, not publishers. To do that stuff well it needs to be learned in as much depth as the development. In reality you'll need to get someone else to do it if you want it done well, which adds a lot (too much) to the cost of development for small time independents.

Basically, most people can't do it and can't afford for someone else to either as the difference it would make is still academic.

I think you hit the core issue here. If you want to be successful you have to do a lot more than just the fun part. You have to learn about things which are not fun - like how to make your games sell well. And to do that you have to invest a lot of time and effort learning boring stuff. This is the main problem. I think too many people fail here. They don't really want to do the boring stuff, so they half-hearted learn and do some basic newbie marketing for a week or two and call it done. How good would your game be if it was done the same way?

So, if you are indie on a low budget, you'll have to learn the boring stuff sufficiently well to make a living. I once heard this inspirational quote: "Winners do all the things which losers don't want to do." I would only add "and are smart about it".

My take on the OP's post is that a lot of people go indie just to satisfy their emotional investment in the idea of making their own games. They want to be a game maker, act like one, talk about it, brag, be cool, etc., never mind what they actually produce, as long as they are part of the culture. So they do clones for a year or two, find out they suck or don't sell well, and eventually quit.

michalczyk

11-06-2006, 10:52 AM

Any effort at all would be more than most indies invest. You can't learn something if you don't try, and you don't need to be a marketing guru to make a noticable hit in your sales.

You know this is so true. I used to think "Gee, it took me years to get good at the things I enjoy doing, it will be even longer before I'll ever be decent at something I find boring. Is it worth it?". The thing is that once you get past the total newbie stage you start to see the light and things start rolling and you see noticeable improvements time after time. So learning the boring stuff well is doable and can even become quite interesting :)

zoombapup

11-06-2006, 11:08 AM

I have to wonder how much of this is due to lack of marketing and how much is due to simply lack of good products.

I mean, we all know there are GREAT indie products. But how many are truly worth talking about and even more, how many are worth talking about to your mates and getting them to buy?

I'm buying defcon, because of a few things that I think are interesting in this context:

I like the games the developer did previously
I like the style of game
I like the presentation
I like the fact that the devs feel "like me" in that they are kind of into innovation and generally a bit daft.

To me, those are enough to tip the balance for me to buy.

Princec: I'm guessing the reason you are making a few grand is that youre doing shooters. Essentially there aint much of a market for your type of games beyond a few grands worth. Or if there are, they are doing something where you havent tapped into that crowd. I'd expect also that emulators have hurt your sales because you can get lots of REALLY nice shooters for the emu's for bugger all.

This kind of wraps round to the real question. What is it about a game that really gets someone to go "duh! of course!". Jeff T calls it the DUH factor. Like its something so obviously cool that you simply CANT ignore it.

Getting a very DUH concept, then executing it with great style, building in the right hooks and using a reasonable name for it. Then marketing your ass off. That (to me) is the key here. Most people seem to simply fail in one of those areas.

Lets just say I've got a blog post coming about this stuff. But essentially, we are in a hit-based business much as any entertainment medium. So we have to learn to spot/create our own "hits". That is, build the hooks, be smart about the business/marketing and generally grow up if we want to stop playing at game dev and actually make a business of it.

Not that I'm saying it cant be done. I'm just saying I dont often spot a lot of sense being talked here and I would have hoped that people who DO know what theyre doing would speak out a bit :)

princec

11-06-2006, 11:59 AM

Princec: I'm guessing the reason you are making a few grand is that youre doing shooters. Essentially there aint much of a market for your type of games beyond a few grands worth. Or if there are, they are doing something where you havent tapped into that crowd. I'd expect also that emulators have hurt your sales because you can get lots of REALLY nice shooters for the emu's for bugger all.
Not at all... shooters sell. Everything sells, to be honest, if it looks and plays well. If a game's good, it sells. Lemme just check my CR for Titan and Ultratron... Ultratron's looking good at 2.1% and Titan's rocking at 4.5%. Those are bloody good conversion rates. They started off like that and stayed like that. Name another developer with two shooters at those CRs! Yet still not making any money because I just can't get the traffic.

Cas :)

soniCron

11-06-2006, 12:08 PM

Phil, I think most indies expect to make games that people gush over. When a game doesn't buzz like the developer expects, then he concedes defeat and quits. There never was a marketing plan to sustain the game, so not hitting that magic word-of-mouth target is a blow to the gut. Regardless of how buzzworthy the game is, there should always be a marketing plan. You pointed out that games rarely reach a level of buzz that can sustain the developer, and as such, you shouldn't plan for it - it should be an unexpected bonus.

Expecting buzz is like expecting sex on the first date - you should have a plan for a sustainable relationship. Anything else is icing. ;)

Applewood

11-06-2006, 12:21 PM

I really do think there's a branding issue here. Not "licensing", but good old-fashioned brand awareness.

Take a can of baked beans.

On the market shelf there are 5 rows of Heinz Beanz and 3 rows of "blogs beans". The Heinz cost 30p a tin, the blogs cost 10p. You buy Heinz anyway, right ?

And you buy the Heinz even though you know they're 300% more expensive, and you even know that they're probably made by the same canners in Mexico or somewhere, the same place blogs gets his exact same beans from.

The reason you do this is because you've heard of Heinz before. They're more "legit" beans because you recognise them. Even though you also know the only reason you've heard of them before is that you were lied to in a TV commercial.

So, I know this. I've spent 50 grand on developing my game, and I'm gonna spend another 50 grand on buying some brand awareness. That will make me earn 150 grand from my game instead of 10, so is a no-brainer.

Now. Where the hell do I spend it ?!? :confused:

zoombapup

11-06-2006, 12:28 PM

princec: Well, CR doesnt mean anything in terms of potential sales other than its a measure of how well people regard your games. What I meant was that the overall market for shooters is probably quite small these days.

I get the impression your game is seen as more hardcore than say the casual style of oh.. whats it called. Clash N Slash or whatever it was I looked at the other day.

Having good conversion on the 1000 out of 10,000 people who COULD buy your game is good yeah, but it doesnt put you in any better position, because you are already hitting a good proportion of your market. Now the question is.. IS there a bigger market for shooter? Are you missing a place that market congregates? Those are questions to ask.

Soni: To some extent I agree. But I simply cant see any studio making a profit without buzz in the indie space. That buzz can be helped along by good design, good product choices etc. Of course there are contraditions to this (people selling out to portals for instance), but in general, for really independant indies, they need to actually have something word-of-mouth worthy.

The fun thing, is that word of mouth can take lots of different forms. It doesnt have to be LOUD :) Cliffy's games clearly have something that attracts users. I get the feeling that he does ok because his potential users are more mature and not scared of buying cheap software to entertain them.

I guess most of it comes from knowing your target audience. Knowing who and what you are making the game for. I dont have any answers here, other than I know that I see people doing things that dont seem to be working and others are perpetuating the myth that somehow they are "making it" when in fact they arent anywhere near.

I guess your right in that most indies EXPECT people to gush, but frankly, most indie games arent gush worthy. Especially the puzzle poppers..

I've seen some really nice indie developed games that looks FAR more interesting and are AAA quality, but content compact (i.e. didnt cost a ton to make). Thats interesting to me, plus its interesting to press. Press can at least help some.

zoombapup

11-06-2006, 12:44 PM

Paul: you first spend some time finding your core demographic and finding where it hangs out and what it does. Do some tests by sticking some questions together. Go out and ask them, go out and watch them while theyre not looking etc.

Hang out on user forums in various places. Go read thier blogs.

The point is, you are asking "where as my customers", so that first asks, who ARE the customers.

My personal target customer, is someone who is thirty-something, has a house, car, kids etc. Has to stay in (babysitters are a pain), wants to get out of the feet of the wife and play a game for a bit. Doesnt want to get too involved that he has to spend hours doing it.

My target person also tends to play socially, usually has teamspeak going. He/she will make a game choice based on personal recommendation. He will most likely buy a game if the mass of his friends becomes enough to buy it (the added value of the group playing a game is enough of a buy trigger).

One interesting thing, is that this target audience doesnt mind buying multiple games over a year. Actually, they dont mind buying upgrades for thier games (micropayments). They also will actively encourage thier friends to buy games THEY like.

I call this the "friday night club" buyer. They play games like you would watch a sport with your friends.

I know at least SOME of thier motivations, because:

1) Thats me :)
2) I actively play with a bunch of guys in much the same way.. (ok, when I'm not homeless).

The point is, these guys are usually pretty savvy, they will try plenty of games, but they are looking for certain features:

Online gameplay
Short repeatable sessions
Drop-in gameplay (i.e. either short rounds, or allowing drop in any time)
Ability to lock out other players, or invite thier friends into a safe lobby
Ideally, buddy list support, so making a game with thier friends is quicker

Strangely, this demographic isnt actually as strict about its games as you'd think. Ok, maybe they wouldnt play an online bubble popper MMO, but they'd give LOTS of different games a try. They also tend to move from one game to another.

How would I market to them?

Make sure I expressed the value of the product within thier requirements (making sure they know about short play sessions, buddy lists and the like)
Find places they hang out, forums etc. Advertise there
Build in features to the game that allow for inviting buddies and getting them into the game as a demo user quickly. Then allowing easy turnover into paying punter (think easy demo/purchase switching)
Allow them some really dumb customisation
Allow for clan/group badging/branding
Allow for league/ladder group hiscore
Allow for group on group competition and MAKE IT EASY TO ORGANISE
Provide solid community support features, i.e. clan website hosting, own hosted servers etc.
Get interviewed talking about all these things in regular press
Get thier details and tell em when I have new games coming
Actually go out and look for them, ask them to give input on future games

Oh man, there are so many things. Frankly, I havent done many of those things yet. I guess in some ways because I've not got much confidence in Air Ace (our first product) to generate the type of interest this all needs.

I'll be the first to admit, Air Ace ISNT going to make us any profit. Or at least, while I hope it will, its likely it wont. Chalk it up to experience, to wanting to ship or be damned. But I'm NOT all rose tinted about our chances.

But that doesnt mean I havent learnt a lot from the experience.

Applewood

11-06-2006, 01:13 PM

Most of things you list are gameplay hooks targetted at your audience though. You identified that getting that audience to look at the game in the first place is the hard bit, and I'm stumped their too. (I'm also about in your demographic btw, but I don't surf the net at all, nor buy many mags these days)

What I like about Air Ace is that it doesn't look like an indie game, therefore I think you've got a good chance of punting quite a few out. If it looks like someones bothered with it, spent some time on it, got some decent art in, etc. People will more likely buy it because it doesn't scream "I'm a charity, gimme a handout" like so many games I see do.

Personally, I think it's time for a proper "portal" for proper games. We looked at starting one once, as did Stainless who are also based down here. I mean a proper portal too - where we take half the sales and spend it on real advertising and drive some serious traffic. The games should be "commercial" quality. Everybody wins. Sadly not up to the task though, but I think the idea has merit. We even got promises of over a hundred grand to fund it, but that wasn't enough when we factored in hiring staff that could make it happen. If you already have them...

zoombapup

11-06-2006, 01:55 PM

Well, we got the content coming (licensed plane art from a well known fsim plane company).

But honestly, now I analyse it, it might be a game for my demographic, but its a game that has an uphill battle. Not to worry though, its another one on the portfolio and professional looking indie games arent that many on the ground so it sets us up for some good contract work (actually, now that I think about it, that doesnt help because neighther of us care about doing contract work so much! :)) might pay the bills for our artists when we hire some.

zoombapup

11-06-2006, 02:01 PM

I know what you mean about it not being "where do we find those punters" so much as how to appeal to them.

But, I think many of the hooks I talked about make it easier for word-of-mouth to deliver the message for you.

So a bit of a push with some press and the word of mouth buzz kind of helps it along.

Word of mouth is by its nature quite hard to nail down. But look at the things that a few indies do "right".

For instance, sending the press some info. Hell, even a nice press pack like many publishers do.

Have character, that is, have something to say ALL THE TIME. Say it loud and often and say it to everyone who will listen. Basically do a Peter Molyneux/Charles Cecil. Get a "name" for you/your company.

Here's a good example. Recently I've been hearing Cliffy's name mentioned here a lot. Its because he released sales stats that show that he's making almost what we would regard as a living wage, which is pretty big news to most indies. So we chat about it. We use him as an example.

Or Amanda, people talk about her as an example a lot more now that her game did pretty well on the portals.

Now, if you can get one big jump in recognition, you can actually leverage that and get more. There is this thing where you say "well, XX gave us a great bit of coverage, if you dont cover us, we might give them an exclusive" kind of thing. I mean, you can barter one off against the other. Much like any deal with multiple interested parties.

One other idea I had, was to simply do something REALLY stupid. Luckily my split personality told me it wasnt a good idea :)

Applewood

11-06-2006, 02:12 PM

Most of that comes straight back to my baked beans example though. Getting that sort of thing started is the toughy.

Sure, we talk about cliff a lot here as a kinda success story, but we're not his audience. Getting that buzz rolling amongst the general public is a totally different skill, and I'm afraid I have about 0% ability at it :(

You sound a lot better at this, and I genuinely hope it works out for you - certainly sounds like all the groundwork is in place!

princec

11-07-2006, 03:43 AM

princec: Well, CR doesnt mean anything in terms of potential sales other than its a measure of how well people regard your games. What I meant was that the overall market for shooters is probably quite small these days.

I get the impression your game is seen as more hardcore than say the casual style of oh.. whats it called. Clash N Slash or whatever it was I looked at the other day.

Having good conversion on the 1000 out of 10,000 people who COULD buy your game is good yeah, but it doesnt put you in any better position, because you are already hitting a good proportion of your market. Now the question is.. IS there a bigger market for shooter? Are you missing a place that market congregates? Those are questions to ask.
Titan's far more casual than Clash N Slash... and yes, the market's there for shooters just like any other game. The market I have currently is just the random 50-100 or so new downloaders that happen across my site at random every day. I'd need ten times that to get comfortable.

When Titan and Ultratron were up on apple.com they pulled in 50 sales a day each (at the same high conversion rates). The problem I have is just getting the damned things under enough people's noses. Trouble is when I've tried before to get, say, advertising on a site such as penny arcade, I've been either ignored or I've been quoted a ridiculous rate which would certainly see me make a massive loss. Given my conversion rates are genuinely so high I can only assume that those that can afford to pay those rates are actually trying to lose money as they are probably even less likely to turn clicks into customers. Unless there's some hidden factor I don't yet know about.

Actually here's something that gets my goat: when you're embarking on a new business relationship with someone you don't quote them the full whack - you've got to prove your worth and offer a much reduced rate.

I was quoted $8000 for a month of a banner ad on one site without any reliable indication of how much traffic I'd see from it. Sheeesh. If they'd had any sense they'd do a month for free and if that worked out I'd have been happy to pay the $8k.

Cas :)

Jack Norton

11-07-2006, 04:31 AM

Your problem then is getting targeted traffic, not simply "traffic". I once got a surge of traffic like 6k uniques a day but was of so bad quality that I sold less than when I had 2k.
Really is hard to try to get a sense out of this business.

Having Success seems random (with exception of huge hits). There are simply too many factors to take into account...

princec

11-07-2006, 04:50 AM

Well, you say that but the traffic I currently get to Puppygames is more or less random, just odds and sods blown in on the winds off the surf. The traffic I got from Apple.com was more or less random too. Both kinds of traffic got roughly the same CR (actually Apple.com got even higher CR for some reason when it should be even more random "just ordinary Mac users").

Cas :)

mot

11-07-2006, 05:15 AM

random "just ordinary Mac users"

Wasn't it more like "just ordinary Mac users coming from the Apple Games page because they're desperately looking for games that work on their Mac?"

princec

11-07-2006, 05:29 AM

Yes, but that's the kinds of people that are generally looking for games isn't it? I expect the chances of making random game sales to readers of, say, online food recipes looking for black bean sauce ingredients would be almost nil.

Anyway... seem to have answered my own question. If CR is excellent and traffic is crap but I am unable to secure a steady stream of traffic, I need to increase the amount of general traffic I get. I see two plans, both of which are excruciatingly expensive and difficult to do as an indie with a self-publishing bent:

1. Develop more games. I mean a lot more games. And release them regularly. Become, in effect, a portal that only sells Puppygames. Problem is vast effort required and timescales.

2. Hire marketeer and offer said person a third of the net achieved over a certain target. Problem is lack of volunteers and lack of budget for advertising.

Or of course do both. But how to address the problems? Games are just so damned hard to develop to our standard part-time and catch-22 says we can't do it full-time.

Cas :)

Davaris

11-07-2006, 05:32 AM

When Titan and Ultratron were up on apple.com they pulled in 50 sales a day each (at the same high conversion rates). The problem I have is just getting the damned things under enough people's noses. Trouble is when I've tried before to get, say, advertising on a site such as penny arcade, I've been either ignored or I've been quoted a ridiculous rate which would certainly see me make a massive loss. Given my conversion rates are genuinely so high I can only assume that those that can afford to pay those rates are actually trying to lose money as they are probably even less likely to turn clicks into customers. Unless there's some hidden factor I don't yet know about.

Cas have you tried advertising at sites other than gaming ones? I've seen a few banner adds (for comic books) at Renderosity, so I'm curious as to how a banner add for games like yours would go. I assume most of the customers at Renderosity are mature and cashed up. I guess it would all depend on the male to female ratio of course.

princec

11-07-2006, 06:28 AM

About as many girls as boys buy my games I think. Haven't tried any banner ads yet as I am very doubtful about their efficacy. And I'm still broke.

Cas :)

Davaris

11-07-2006, 07:17 AM

My 2c:
From what I've seen (in the real world) companies seem to spend more than they make on sales (at first) to build up their customer lists. You'd have to be pretty brave to do it, but then again business is dog eat dog and only the most aggressive marketeers prosper.

EDIT:
I wonder how the Goodsol guy does it. I understand he spends a fortune on advertising, but has only one product (apart from Mahjong). Hmmm... Perhaps he charges for the upgrades?

voxel

11-07-2006, 08:05 AM

Cas, sell your house and escape to NZ - there you can live even with your currently indie sales! :D
Beside, if you don't know, the ratio between women and men there is 3:1, so... !

Both lies. :) NZ is an expensive place to be (on a contract here at the moment) and forget about the women:men ratio... it's better than the US, but not lopsided.

Sheep to Human ratio is liek 20:1

voxel

11-07-2006, 08:06 AM

I see a lot of match3 puzzle dash clones and I look on these forums and everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet for the most part.

There's "artsy-fartsy indie" (not too many of these) and "casual indie" - neither create anything like each other. Match-3 puzzles come from the latter and weird stuff comes from the former.

voxel

11-07-2006, 08:09 AM

I was quoted $8000 for a month of a banner ad on one site without any reliable indication of how much traffic I'd see from it. Sheeesh. If they'd had any sense they'd do a month for free and if that worked out I'd have been happy to pay the $8k.

From their perspective, how can they trust some random guy to pay the $8k AFTER the goods have been sold / used / non-refundable. Why don't you do that with your games? Give it away for a month (not 60 mins) and then let the user decided if he wants to pay for it.

Jack Norton

11-07-2006, 08:28 AM

Both lies. :) NZ is an expensive place to be (on a contract here at the moment) and forget about the women:men ratio... it's better than the US, but not lopsided.

Sheep to Human ratio is liek 20:1

Hmm maybe you live in a villa with pool in NZ? because I have several friends that live there, mostly Auckland and Wellington apartments, and their expenses are below 1000 usd a month (singles, living quite comfortably as they say).

Try to live with that miserable "salary" in europe...or even worse in the case of Cas in UK! ;)

zoombapup

11-07-2006, 08:37 AM

Your games are written in Java arent they Cas?

Why not advertise on Java game dev sites for one? Or Java "non game" dev sites.

Nerds are nerds, wherever they are. I'm sure a Java nerd is as likely to download a Java based shooter as anyone else. I guess the problem is that those places will be 'spensive too :)

I agree that making lots of games is hard on an indie time budget (and even on an indie money budget).

At the end of the day, maybe you are getting out about the right amount for the games you've made. I mean, unless you can spend some more in order to accumulate more customers, then you are at the right level.

The big question is:

Could you increase downloads/sales?
Can you afford to do what it takes to do that?
How?
Can you be arsed?

I do like your games, but to me, they dont hit that tipping point into a "buy" so much. But your CR suggests that they offer enough value to a good %age statistically, so the main issue is driving visitors to your site.

So first thing I guess is..

Who actually visits your site? What kind of person are they? What interests them? Are there any overall features that tie them together (age, background, interests etc). Do you capture any of these things?

Phil.

Bad Sector

11-07-2006, 08:46 AM

Hmm maybe you live in a villa with pool in NZ? because I have several friends that live there, mostly Auckland and Wellington apartments, and their expenses are below 1000 usd a month (singles, living quite comfortably as they say).

Try to live with that miserable "salary" in europe...or even worse in the case of Cas in UK! ;)

I live with 1000 euros/month in Athens/Greece/Europe, so it's not that impossible and Greece is considered as one of the most expensive countries in Europe.

But i don't live *that* comfortable and i spend most of my day in front of a computer, going out rarely and tend to be out-of-money near the end of the month :-P.

But if i was going to live in an island, then expenses would be veeery low, especially if i had my own house. At the other hand, i wouldn't have a day job if i was living in an island, which is a requirement if one of my life's plans is to survive :-).

Jack Norton

11-07-2006, 10:20 AM

I live with 1000 euros/month in Athens/Greece/Europe, so it's not that impossible and Greece is considered as one of the most expensive countries in Europe.

is considered most expensive by YOU maybe :D
http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving.htm

Athens dropped from 41 to 59 place. First town in NZ is Auckland at 100 place.

London is 5th... poor Cas ;)

zoombapup

11-07-2006, 10:46 AM

Hmm, I'm setting my sights on TEHRAN!

Poor leipzig.. it must be a dump (sorry if you live there). How does it score so low?

ManuelMarino

11-07-2006, 10:54 AM

Being Indies is not just a business thing... it's a way of living!

Indies are all very creative and artists in their field. And usually artists can't work well in difficult situations like in a big company obliging yourself to create something interesting in few time or they kick your ass out of the office.

Long live Indies! :)

KNau

11-07-2006, 12:31 PM

KNau

11-07-2006, 12:32 PM

Davaris

11-07-2006, 05:24 PM

Cas I remember a couple of years ago you used to come in here and complain that your games weren't selling. People would give you good advice and you'd ignore it and keep complaining. Recently when your new game started to sell well you said you could see why your old game never sold. :)

I think the last thing you have to fix before you can become successful is your marketing, because I think your latest game is damned good. If I were you, I'd stop programming for a while, ask for a few book recommendations and start reading. In a couple of years you'll be saying I can see why I wasn't making any money back then, because I was so lazy/shit at marketing. :)

impossible

11-07-2006, 10:15 PM

And don't anyone dare try to say it's easier to open a retail business than an indie game studio!!! I've done both and the retail biz was harder (and cost me more emotionally and financially) than games ever could. We've got it friggin' easy here.
Yes, that's one good thing about indie games vs. most other businesses. While the profits are often low, the risk is also very low. I doubt any indie games done by part timers have budgets higher than around $10K. Most games are much less than that. In the end you're spending time doing something you love doing, so even if you put a lot of time into a game and it tanks its arguably not too bad.

One alternative to all this is to look at indie game development as mostly a creative outlet rather than a part time business. So instead of worrying about the market, worrying about making those few hit casual games before you can make the game you REALLY want, threat the whole thing as a loss and just do what you want. I imagine it would be similar to an artist that works for an advertising firm or as a teacher (day job) also but has regular gallery showings (indie). There are a few indies that operate like this, but it seems like they're a minority.

princec

11-08-2006, 02:54 AM

I think the last thing you have to fix before you can become successful is your marketing, because I think your latest game is damned good. If I were you, I'd stop programming for a while, ask for a few book recommendations and start reading. In a couple of years you'll be saying I can see why I wasn't making any money back then, because I was so lazy/shit at marketing. :)
Ah but I know what I want to do now, and that's write the games, not draw the graphics, or make the sound effects, or fiddle with the website, or market the buggers. I want an indie marketeer to do that bit in partnership with me. So why are people like this so hard to find?

Well, for one reason, because they don't frequent this board :) Anybody know where entrepreneurial communist marketeers hang out?

Cas :)

Davaris

11-08-2006, 03:53 AM

Well, for one reason, because they don't frequent this board Anybody know where entrepreneurial communist marketeers hang out?

If I ever learn the trade I'll message you and see if you're still looking. :)

know where entrepreneurial communist marketeers hang out?

Forget the communist bit. Offer them a 50% partnership (with an out if they don't perform) and you could get lucky.

princec

11-08-2006, 04:47 AM

Was thinking more along the lines of a third of sales over what we call our baseline (which amounts to about $750 net a month right about now)

Cas :)

princec

11-08-2006, 04:50 AM

Who actually visits your site? What kind of person are they? What interests them? Are there any overall features that tie them together (age, background, interests etc). Do you capture any of these things?
Wish I new how to. I can make a guess at the gender but that's about it really. Could do a survey competition thing I suppose.

Cas :)

Ricardo C

11-08-2006, 05:24 AM

[pep talk]

Gah! It's not about lowering your lifestyle to what you can afford on some meager indie income; it's about building an income to support the lifestyle you want! I'm sure there's cheap living to be had in Papua New Guinea but at the end of the day I'd be stuck in friggin' Papua New Guinea!

If you can't figure out a way to support a decent lifestyle with your business then you're simply not in business. If you just want to develop your games and do nothing else then all you've done is create a temp job for yourself that's going to run out as soon as the bills become due. Or worse, you've created a money drain that's going to syphon funds from your legit job.

If people can create mini-empires of convenience stores, flea market tables or (in the case of my home town) souvlaki stands then you can make a legit business out of video games. If Pavlina can make 6 figures selling hot air ;) then you'd better believe you can do the same selling an actual product!

[/pep talk]

Is that... Op-op-optimism? But... I thought we'd banned that at IndieGamer ;)

One alternative to all this is to look at indie game development as mostly a creative outlet rather than a part time business. So instead of worrying about the market, worrying about making those few hit casual games before you can make the game you REALLY want, threat the whole thing as a loss and just do what you want. I imagine it would be similar to an artist that works for an advertising firm or as a teacher (day job) also but has regular gallery showings (indie). There are a few indies that operate like this, but it seems like they're a minority.

Screw that. Much as I love game development, there are many other things I love more. Like, say, not being a slave to a 9-5 job and then spending what free time I have making games that will never make money, and so on for the next 50 years. My goal is to turn my passion into a source of income.

voxel

11-08-2006, 05:36 AM

Hmm maybe you live in a villa with pool in NZ? because I have several friends that live there, mostly Auckland and Wellington apartments, and their expenses are below 1000 usd a month (singles, living quite comfortably as they say).

Try to live with that miserable "salary" in europe...or even worse in the case of Cas in UK! ;)

A total myth about NZ... the cost of electronics, CDs/DVDs, and foreign goods are quite high. I'm in Wellington and it's cheap, but it's slightly cheaper in Canada - AND the salaries are pathetic here (50% lower than the UK). Also, day-to-day healthcare is not covered by the government if you aren't permanent resident here...

NZ and Canada are WAY cheaper than most of Europe (I lived in London for a year).

Moose2000

11-08-2006, 06:46 AM

The salaries are low, but then the appeal of NZ for an indie is that you're the one paying that salary.

ManuelMarino

11-08-2006, 07:04 AM

Why don't you come in Sicily? 1000 euros monthly and you are a king!

Ricardo C

11-08-2006, 07:21 AM

Really? I thought it would be much more expensive, being in Italy and all.

*reads up on Italian immigration policy*

ManuelMarino

11-08-2006, 07:28 AM

No... Northern Italy is expensive... it's Sicily that it is not.

impossible

11-08-2006, 09:43 AM

Screw that. Much as I love game development, there are many other things I love more. Like, say, not being a slave to a 9-5 job and then spending what free time I have making games that will never make money, and so on for the next 50 years. My goal is to turn my passion into a source of income.
Hah, it was just a possible alternative. The majority of people on indie gamer feel the same way as you. I didn't say the games would never make money, but I was implying that making games with the primary goal of making a great game rather than the primary goal of starting a successful business could work (not that the two are unrelated.) There is the idea that if you make something appealing to someone, even if its not in a "hot" market you can be successful, and there are a few members that have followed that path.

Its been said before, there are really two different goals driving people, one is to start a successful business so you can be independent of working for anyone else (even if you are really working for portals...) the other would be simply to make the games you really want to. A few select people are doing both.

This isn't meant to be a "you guys aren't indie enough!" or an anti-business rant. I'm saying perhaps both ways can work. If you're frustrated with working on casual games and afraid you can't compete, just do what you really want to do and don't worry about the business side as much.

Bouncer

11-08-2006, 10:05 AM

I'm with impossible in this one. It's ok to do things for money, but It's not the main point for all of us. I rather do the game I like and get no money at all from it than go the other way around. Maybe it's because I'm used to being poor... don't know.

But when the time in my life comes I want / need to make money. I propably won't be doing indie games for that. I make games I like to make, because I love them. Fuck the money. Besides, my game would have to sell a few thousand copies for me to get a minimum hourly wage from it :)

Ricardo C

11-08-2006, 10:42 AM

"Fuck money"? Get away from me ;)

linchear

11-08-2006, 12:31 PM

I used to work at a extremely small, but self sufficient software company. They had a small staff of about 10 people. 2 of them developers -- including the owner. The rest were sales, marketing and support. Sales and Marketing worked extremely hard to sell and gauge the customers.

We all know sales and marketing plays a huge role on the bottom line. In a small company it was more evident.

Here are some of the things they did to increase business:
1. Newsletters (Monthly) - printed/online - to existing customers who opt in. Let them know what you're up to. New features, products, updates.
a. Promotions tied into the newsletters - quizzes, contests, prices.
b. Letters from customers.
c. Hints and strategies.

2. Join local business associations.
a. If you have women on your staff, there may be a "Women in Tech" group. There's always articles being written by the organization showcasing the acheivements of its members.
b. Network at any forums and functions (local business, or game conferences). Get people to know what you do, and what products you have.

3. Press
a. Approach local press - large and small. Maybe you live in a small community with a small regional newspaper. Providing a press release to them may spur them into doing a story on you -- especially if Game companies are a rarity in your area.

4. Sponsorship
a. Local teams always need some sponsors. You can pitch in a bit to get your logo out there locally and some name brand recognition.

Plus, Marketing can be fun. Myself, I have yet to run a successful business on my own, so take the advice for what it's worth :)

zoombapup

11-08-2006, 12:34 PM

Actually, this brings up a good point (the one that impossible made).

I was watching a programme on TV yesterday night about the "new wave" of film directors. The indie-made-good set that have sprung up recently.

People making films like:

The life aquatic
The royal tenenbaums
Brokeback mountain
Sideways

etc.. So anyway, the programme focussed on these people and how they had all at one time been independant film makers. The thing that struck me most about it though and I was going to write about it here, was that they were mostly quite dismissive of the money aspect of thier industry. Basically, they had all made the choice to make thier own films and "fuck the film industry" if they didnt want to go along.

So many of them were self-funding, they were kind of doing that because they wanted the freedom to create.

And the films they created were successful. In fact, they were successful enough that the major studios build up seperate sub-labels to market those films (i.e. they started essentially film "portals" to monetize this market).

The great part, is that now these people are being slowly accepted as mainstream in many ways. They are being given greater creative freedom than if they had gone along with the major studio system (by accepting changes that were suggested to them instead of fighting against them).

What inspires me about the whole thing, was that I've recently realised that for myself, the thing about being indie, is that I have control of what games I create. Beyond that, it also means I can literally create MY masterpeice. Not someone elses!

Let me put that into a bit of context. I was reading a link (I think it was on gamasutra) where one of the guys from Capcom I think it was, was talking about Steel Battalions. He was saying "I had a really hard time trying to convince everyone that it was worth making, in the end I said to them 'Look, we will NEVER be in a position to make a game like this ever again, we MUST make it now'".

That really spoke to me. The fact that he realised that commercially it was NOT going to work. But that sometimes you have to ditch the commerciality in order to do whats right creatively. Sometimes you do it because you will NEVER AGAIN get the chance.

Whats what I feel about my indie game dev now. I'll NEVER get this chance again. So my next game had better be something I believe in. Forget all the commercial bullshit about trying to appeal to casual gamers or whatever. Thats like trying to paint pictures that appeal to buying demographic rather than trying to create great art, or trying to create music to a design rather than trying to create a really brilliant sounding track.

I suppose it boils down to personal motivations. But history kind of suggests that people who try and do things for commercial success are rarely remembered. I can live with not having a huge success commercially if my game achieves my vision of what it can be I think. But then I dont have to live off it! :)