The Business end of things... [Archive] - Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards

Black Hydra

10-20-2004, 12:19 PM

I originally started this as a hobby, but I am now seeing this more and more viably as a part-time job. However, I'm new and I need a push in the right direction.

After reading some articles from dexterity.com they provided a powerful insight into what would be required in order to actually make a profit off of this hobby. Among them was that you need to learn marketting and many other things.

I'm new, and in my experience the best way to learn is to ask questions.

I'd like to get some things straight. I'm not doing this to be rude but I think it is better that everyone understands my position before giving me advice I cannot use.

1) I cannot do this as a full-time job right now. I can spend quite a large chunk of it on my spare time, as I have been doing.

2) I am willing to put in the effort to learn. I am a strong believer that you can do whatever you want with some persistance and drive. If you tell me it will take months or years to become good at it then I will do that. (no isn't an option. :rolleyes: )

3) My programming experience has been fairly cloistered. I have spent pretty much all my time with a compiler called DarkBasicPro. Its similar to BlitzBasic. While, from reading other posts on this forum, I am told that you can make games with Blitz (assuming it applies to DBPro) and make money. I need to know how useful it will be to learn another language if I intend to use this one. Yeah, I know it would be useful, but if it isn't that necessary I'd rather focus my time on more relevant issues.

So there you go. Now for my questions. Any insight into this is greatly appreciated as I just need to know where to start.

1) In Steve's articles at dexterity.com he mentioned doing basic market research to find market areas that you think you can access and make a profit off of. So? How do I go about doing this? My *research* seemed to tell me that all the downloads were almost completely for puzzle oriented games? I know this cannot be true seeing as the wide variety of commercial games out there. So does anyone have any methods for getting market research done?

2) I am a complete idiot when it comes to making websites/webstores ect. (not saying I can't learn), I was given a link to esellerate and there 10-15% profit cut seems very negligible considering they also provide server fees up to 20mbs and have tools to set up your webstore. Not to mention they handle all the payments and everything. Seeing as I'm also new to this, any advice or the pro's and con's about using each method.

3)What do I need to learn. I can learn anything I need to. I just need to know what. Currently, besides having learned the language I'm using, I am also learning how to use a 3-D modeller, a skinning program, a texture editor and a tracking software. Those cover the basic gamemaking aspects. What will I need to learn to make money.

I usually spend 3-5 hours a day learning this stuff (I'd probably spend more if I wasn't in school for 8 of that day). I'm only 16, so does being a minor affect my status somehow? I'm also canadian? Again, I don't know if there is some kind of laws preventing me from doing things until I turn 18...

Thank you for any help. Oh, and just so you don't think my stubborn optimism is just a side-effect of my youth and naivety, I do know how hard this will be. I know that most people here probably will barely make a living working full time at this. Thats why intend to learn everything I can and train myself to overcome that.

Thank you. I hope to be visiting these forums frequently.

ggambett

10-20-2004, 12:39 PM

I can learn anything I need to. I just need to know what. Currently, besides having learned the language I'm using, I am also learning how to use a 3-D modeller, a skinning program, a texture editor and a tracking software. Those cover the basic gamemaking aspects. What will I need to learn to make money.
Some people do everything as you are suggesting... if you can, congratulations. But bear in mind that completing a game is much, much, much, much harder than you think it is. We all fell in the trap of thinking a simple game is simple to make, and that's usually not the case. When you're 80% done, you still have another 80% to finish... and another, and another, and another. Believe me, small things and details pile up and amount to a LOT of work.

I'm only 16, so does being a minor affect my status somehow?
I don't think so. If anything, you have a lot of free time. Do some research about the legal questions, as you said.

I'm also canadian?
It's possible, but your relatives are probably better informed about that matter than we are. I suggest you ask them.

Bluecat

10-20-2004, 12:48 PM

Welcome to the forums Black Hydra,

I hope you enjoy your stay here.

I'm new, and in my experience the best way to learn is to ask questions.

I'm fairly new to this too, there's a lot I don't understand yet. Your experience is right about asking questions, but also realise that experience is the best teacher. At this stage you can experiment without too many risks.

1) In Steve's articles at dexterity.com he mentioned doing basic market research to find market areas that you think you can access and make a profit off of. So? How do I go about doing this? My *research* seemed to tell me that all the downloads were almost completely for puzzle oriented games? I know this cannot be true seeing as the wide variety of commercial games out there. So does anyone have any methods for getting market research done?

It does seem that puzzle games do sell pretty well. The big portals seem to do allright by them. I think at this stage you should be asking yourself what you would like to do. Search this forum for posts asking what to make and you'll probably find the majority advice is to make the game you want to make (within reason... a MMORPG is probably not a good first project).

2) I am a complete idiot when it comes to making websites/webstores ect. (not saying I can't learn), I was given a link to esellerate and there 10-15% profit cut seems very negligible considering they also provide server fees up to 20mbs and have tools to set up your webstore. Not to mention they handle all the payments and everything. Seeing as I'm also new to this, any advice or the pro's and con's about using each method.

Have a look at some of the indie websites out there to get an idea of where to go. You don't have to start with a incredibly complex and detailed website with all the bells and whistles. Create a few pages that give some details about your game, your company, and link to a payment processor. From previous posts on these boards, Plimus comes highly recommended.

3)What do I need to learn. I can learn anything I need to. I just need to know what. Currently, besides having learned the language I'm using, I am also learning how to use a 3-D modeller, a skinning program, a texture editor and a tracking software. Those cover the basic gamemaking aspects. What will I need to learn to make money.

That's the sixty four thousand dollar question... literally! If you find out the secret let me know.

Seriously. Dedication to quality is probably a good start. Make sure the games that you make are of a high quality. That means find as many bugs as you can in both the software and gameplay. While (I think) it doesn't mean AAA quality graphics in your games, make sure your game looks good and doesn't have visual flaws.

I usually spend 3-5 hours a day learning this stuff (I'd probably spend more if I wasn't in school for 8 of that day). I'm only 16, so does being a minor affect my status somehow? I'm also canadian? Again, I don't know if there is some kind of laws preventing me from doing things until I turn 18...

If you are a minor you need to find a major to do anything related to contracts. That would include your payment processor I would think, as well as anything business related.

Good luck, and once again, welcome.

Anthony Flack

10-20-2004, 05:29 PM

There's been loads of commercial games made with Blitz, but I can't think of many (any?) Dark Basic ones. Without wanting to do the stereotypical DB-bashing thing, or incur the wrath of the "only C++ is serious" crowd, it does appear that DB has some issues that makes it less of a serious development tool than Blitz.

But anyway, I definitely wouldn't use DBpro to make puzzle games. Because if I recall, DBPro uses rather a high DX version (8 or 9), and requires 3d hardware accelleration. It also seems to have a few mysterious compatibility issues (I'm told). If you're hitting the puzzle* game market, you typically want the broadest hardware requirements you can manage.

Having said that though, I wouldn't do a puzzle game at all if you're not interested in them. As you can see, the puzzle game market is extremely competitive, and while there's certainly money to be made there, you'll be going up against serious, big-time commercial operators these days.

Just do something you like and see how it goes. You're young, you've got free time - if you enjoy the project you're working on, then you've got nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

* Not actual puzzles, of course. Colour matching and that.

Sillysoft

10-20-2004, 10:34 PM

It sounds like you have a good outlook on the shareware possibility. The fact that you are young is also a good asset. You have quite a bit of time before you join the rat race. Make good use of that time and you will have a good head start. I released the first version of my game while I was still in university and am very glad that I was able to do so. You have more free time while in school then when you must work fulltime.

As for market research: are there any games that you would like to play that do not exist? Or that exist but are done badly, are outdated, etc. You will have much better luck actually finishing something if you are working on something that appeals to you, rather than solely where you think the most $$ is.

Also, good advice is to start small. Very small. This will give you the experience of what is needed to finish something, and set up a website, etc. Even a little freeware app would be a good thing to start with. If you have some ideas for things that you could add to your small project then that is good. Finish the small thing, and then grow it if it turns out well.

I am also Canadian. It is a good advantage. Any shareware income you make will be priced in US dollars :D

I used esellerate as my payment processor, and it was very easy to set up and get running. However, I would advise you to ignore payment stuff until you have a finished product ready.

SyneRyder

10-20-2004, 11:34 PM

If you can afford it, I'd recommend joining the Association of Shareware Professionals (http://www.asp-shareware.org/). There's a lot of resources there that will get you off to a flying start as a beginner. It's probably the best advice I can give, since so many of the answers to your questions are there.

What else can I suggest?

* Don't do a project that you're not passionate about. Imagine for a second that your project is a flop, would you still be happy to support it in future years? Try not to make anything just for the money. It will take time away from other projects you could be doing.

* Get a copy of The E-Myth Revisited and follow it closely. This is extremely important. Sure, it talks about franchising and exit strategies and you may not want anything to do with either. But you need to design your business with structure and backups in place - this is the "what happens if I get hit by a bus" issue. eg What do customers do if they lost their unlocking code, and you're currently unable to reply to emails because of an RSI injury?

* Outsource anything that is not your core competency. So unless you're going to make the way you accept credit card orders an important part of your business, I'd get eSellerate or Kagi or Plimus to take the orders instead. And check that they act as a "reseller" - this means you won't be liable for paying EU VAT taxes and so forth, they'll do it all for you. You should probably outsource things like game artwork and music too, unless you want to try them to see if you're better at them than coding.

* Don't assume you're going to make a ton of sales straight away: Eric Sink sold only 6 copies (http://software.ericsink.com/entries/msdn_wsol_report_1.html) of Winnable Solitaire in his first month. And in comparison, Pretty Good Solitaire sold nothing in the first month, but it's now one of the most successful Solitaire games, and I think its creator is now a millionaire.

* Read all of the articles at Dexterity. But make sure you spend more time coding than reading! This is very important.

I could go on and on but I shouldn't :) Hope that helps.

Black Hydra

10-22-2004, 06:54 AM

Well, I have already done a freeware project that has been finished. Although finished is a fairly loose term with regards to these kind of projects. I have gathered invaluable experience with regards to project development, beta-testing, and some other basic skills. The project took a little over 6 months from the begginning of the coding until beta testing. So, I'm not a complete newbie when it comes to project development.

While I don't plan on starting a big new project right away, (I'm still trying to amass the skills necessary), I do want to know what to do before I start.
Making a game that inspires me is kind of vague. I get inspirations for different games pretty much daily, while only about 5% I could realistically see coming through as feasable projects, that is still far more projects than I have time to do. So, I'd like to know how to conduct basic market research to find an area that looks promising and then figure out a game I would like to make that would fit in that catagory. So I need to know where to conduct my research and what to look for.

With regards to the whole DB vs Blitz argument they are really just different. I wouldn't say I'd choose one over the other. I'm using DBPro, which I have been told from users of both, that it has a lower level access and more powerful commands than Blitz does, it does also require a higher level of DirectX. Really sort of a linear trade off. The more graphical power you add the higher the Direct X. Unless your using some base language like C++ where you can do what you want.

I'm not saying I have to stick with that language for all projects, but considering I already know it quite well, I'd rather use it for my first project (or two) so that I limit all the new stuff I need to learn into managable chunks.

So, this is what I need to know:

1) How and where to conduct some market research to look into prospective areas to pursue.

2) What skills I should try to master. Is there any reading you would suggest? Is there any online reading (better) that you would suggest (Other than dexterity's articles because I've read all of those).

3) What general skills do you value as more important. Should I master my programming skills above all others. Or does graphics and music play a considerable role. I'm learning them all, but I have to decide which will take priority if I am trying to master them.

4) Services such as esellerate? Good, bad? Seeing as I have limited web-experience, would using a service like this be beneficial as that would allow me to get my product out without having to learn a whole host of new web-development skills.

5) Is there any pitfalls that you think I need to try and avoid from going into shareware from doing this as a hobby?

6) What can I do to increase my initial successes. i.e. what do you see a lot of new people doing that really ruins there success?

Thanks for help on the matter. Any help may avoid me months of frustration.

serg3d

10-22-2004, 07:10 AM

Making a game that inspires me is kind of vague. I get inspirations for different games pretty much daily, while only about 5% I could realistically see coming through as feasable projects, that is still far more projects than I have time to do.

I have very limite expirience (I've not even finished the game, rebuilding it now after some testing), but the most important thing I've learned - make a prototype with as little effort as possible and drop it on several (you don't need many really) unsuspected victims. If less then 50% think the game is great start other prototype or rebuild existing (if you have ides for changes radical enouth)

carl

10-22-2004, 08:17 AM

So, I'd like to know how to conduct basic market research to find an area that looks promising and then figure out a game I would like to make that would fit in that catagory. So I need to know where to conduct my research and what to look for.

Speaking as someone who is still trying to answer this for myself, I think it depends on where you are coming from:

1) You have a product you are passionate about. You would love to turn it into a business. You need to determine if there are enough people willing to pay for that product to support growing a new enterprise.

2) You are passionate about the computer gaming industry, and you really want to build a new company that is a part of it. You don't care about what kind of games you are making, as long as you are growing an enterprise that is loved by the gaming community. You want to identify the segment of the market that will give you the best opportunity for your company to survive and prosper.

I believe most people will be coming from somewhere between these two extremes (feel free to chime in if there are more origins I haven't thought of).

In the first scenario, I would follow the advice from the EMyth Revisited by Michael Gerber. There is no substitute for talking to people. Evangelise your product idea. Show it to as many people as possible, and find out who would be willing to purchase it. After you talk to enough people, you will start to notice similarities between those that are excited by your idea, and those that are not. You can generalize (I know, stereotyping is dangerous) these traits to form a picture of your target market. Taking this information, you can check demographics, make more targetted surveys etc to determine if you can reach enough people with these traits to make your business viable.

If I was coming from origin #2, I would first identify the type of person I wanted to target. Am I looking for the "Volvo driving soccer moms" or the "hardcore gaming teenage boys" market. When trying to decide between the various groups, I would consider things like market size, number of competitors, the length of time to create a game for that market, and do I know anything about that market. Once the type of person I am targetting has been chosen, I would then brainstorm product ideas, and at that point I'm back to #1.

I hope this has given you a couple of threads to follow for your market research. If you identify with scenario #1, talk to your friends and relatives, create web based surveys, or pick up the phone. Target as many people as possible to see who your market is, and refine as necessary. If you're starting from #2, start identifying different game market segments, and find information about sales / costs / revenue for other games in that market.

Diragor

10-22-2004, 09:20 AM

3) What general skills do you value as more important. Should I master my programming skills above all others. Or does graphics and music play a considerable role. I'm learning them all, but I have to decide which will take priority if I am trying to master them.

If you're not already a talented artist or musician, I'd recommend outsourcing that work. I think the importance of graphics and music varies depending on the type of game, but it never hurts and almost always helps to have top-notch content in those areas.

Depends on the project and your situation, though. If I were doing a puzzle game and didn't have any money to pay an artist I'd probably try to do the graphics myself (I'm no arTEEst, but I can make colorful little balls and an attractive GUI). If I were doing a cartoony, side-scrolling shooter like Metal Slug I would definitely hire somebody or beg a talented, inexperienced artist to work for a percentage of profits. (Maybe hit the local art schools?)

milo

10-22-2004, 09:37 AM

Black Hydra

10-23-2004, 02:47 PM

My market research so far has pretty much consisted of going to a few retail computer games stores and determining what kind of competition I am dealing with.

However, my experience tells me that, like the console to computer comparison, the shareware market is different than the retail market. Does anyone have any good sites th-at show some simple things like download rates? Again, market research seems to involve two things. 1) Finding out what people want. and 2) Finding out what the competition is selling. Unfortunately answering the first question seems pretty elusive.

Some of you have suggested just to try stuff out and make a quick proto-type and guage whether you feel it would be successful based on reactions. This seems a little hit-and-miss for a first stage in research. Does anyone know any areas that are notably popular in shareware. To my understanding puzzle games appear popular. But, the competition is high and my interest is somewhat limited.

I don't expect my first game to be hugely successful, more a learning experience in the whole shareware area. However, I'd like to increase success as much as possible. I would rather spend the time to find a suitable idea and go with it, than waste six to nine months on a program noone will buy.

So, I guess I'll narrow down my questions:

1) Where can I conduct some simple research to figure out what are the top selling/downloaded games. Site names would be great.

2) What is considered average. I want to start with a small project as I assume my first game will be no huge success. So, what is the average size of a game considered for shareware. I'd like to spend six to nine months on development. However seeing as my workload is a little more spread out than full-timers, I assume this would be a very small program. My questions regarding this:
What is considered average pricing in this market. For example I would never think to sell a game like this for, lets say, 70$. However, if I sell it too low I may be reducing profits because people would be willing to pay 10$ over 5$ without a huge drop in sales.

3) Can anyone give me a push in the right direction. All I've gotten so far were some vague hints for working on a project that inspires me. That is sort of a given, I wouldn't spend a year working on something I thought sucked. Can anyone tell me what would be a good range of ideas for a beginner to shareware. I know RPG's and huge games are no-no's but are there any ideas that could be made small?

4) What is the level of importance you find for game quality. We purists all like to say that the games fun level is the most important, but if we consider that with really crappy graphics someone may not even download the demo... Or if we consider that if the game looks low-budget or crappy they will be unwilling to buy it regardless of whether it is fun.

I don't need the handbook to success, I just need a push so that I can start teaching myself. Someone suggested reading. I do alot of reading, I just finished a 350 page book on Game AI by O'Reilly. Is there any reading you would suggest. More importantly are there any online sources other than Dexterity that provide insight into this business.

I'm not looking for tips on how to make a game or programming/graphic secrets. While I'm no expert there I know pretty much nothing about this subject, and this is the reason I made the post.

Davaris

10-23-2004, 04:49 PM

I've seen a lot of talk about market research. But I am very sceptical. I've seen guys who have done the research and they had a lot of success with one game. Then they did the research for a second game and the game bombed big time.

I've seen people work their guts out and spend a lot of time on one title and it made them nothing. I've also seen people put 2 months into something that sold really well right from the start (even when it was similar to one of their previous titles that did not sell at all).

In my opinion people that have great selling games are just plain lucky and you should not base a career on that. If I were you I would forget about making a living as an Indie and do it as a hobby. If you happen to get lucky and strike gold with one of your games, then by all means milk it for all its worth and go full time.

Black Hydra

10-23-2004, 05:14 PM

You're not a believer in determinism then are you? Don't you know that there is no such thing as luck. I believe it was Einstein that said that randomness is only observed as such because we cannot comprehend that factors that caused it.

Sucess and Failure are not based on luck. A game doesn't sell well because it was lucky. Someone may buy a game, that may be caused by luck, or at least consequences outside the gamemaker's controls. A game never sells thousands of copies because of luck.

The thing is that market research, game development length and game quality are just pieces of a larger puzzle, that much I know. Market research isn't a hoax. Just about every business conducts market research. It fuels the millions of consumer dollars every day. To ignore that it is a powerful tool is idiocy. However, it alone can't make a game sell. If the game is boring, or the cost is too high the game won't sell either.

To say it is luck is merely saying you don't know why some games do well and others do poorly, it doesn't mean that there aren't logical causes for it.

Sometimes, you may strike out and your game may fail despite predictions. I can handle that. However, if you don't do ANY market research or try to master ANY of the non-gameMAKING skills then your failure rate goes up spectacularly.

Look at me, now it seems like I'm trying to tell you guys something and I'm the one who claimed to know nothing and was asking for help. Apparently I know a lot more than I thought I did.

kerchen

10-23-2004, 08:08 PM

1) Where can I conduct some simple research to figure out what are the top selling/downloaded games. Site names would be great.

There really isn't a good place to get reliable stats for downloadable games. You can get download stats from sites like download.com, but those should be taken with a grain of salt--anecdotal evidence suggests that those stats err on the high side. However, they may be useful for gauging relative popularity. Sites like Pogo.com, popcap.com, and realarcade.com tend to only carry top-selling titles, so looking at those sites can give you an idea of what's hot right now (i.e., they're not much use for predicting the market 9 months from now). Basically, there's no free, one-stop shopping for this information.

2)What is considered average pricing in this market. For example I would never think to sell a game like this for, lets say, 70$. However, if I sell it too low I may be reducing profits because people would be willing to pay 10$ over 5$ without a huge drop in sales.

There's no consensus on what pricing is best for downloadable games, but most games fall in the range of $10-$30. The big portals (PopCap, et al) claim $19.95 is the sweet spot.

3)I know RPG's and huge games are no-no's but are there any ideas that could be made small?

Just off the top of my head: very narrow simulation games (eg., city bus route planning), trivia games, interactive fiction games, many of the games entered in the IGF every year.

4) What is the level of importance you find for game quality. We purists all like to say that the games fun level is the most important, but if we consider that with really crappy graphics someone may not even download the demo... Or if we consider that if the game looks low-budget or crappy they will be unwilling to buy it regardless of whether it is fun.

If your game doesn't look appealing, most potential customers won't even bother downloading it. Your screenshots are your first and most effective form of advertising. The games that make it in spite of lousy presentation are truly rare.

Is there any reading you would suggest. More importantly are there any online sources other than Dexterity that provide insight into this business.

Besides here? Well, if you liked the Dexterity forums and articles, there's stevepavlina.com. :) He (Steve Pavlina) is also releasing a book soon, so you may want to check that out. Also, you probably should read David Michael's book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1584502142/ref=nosim/davidrmsoftwa-20) "The Indie Game Development Survival Guide". Gamedev and flipcode have the occasional gems, but you'll have to sift through a lot of slag to find them. Thomas Warfield's blog (www.asharewarelife.com) regularly has useful articles about shareware game development. Even the developers sections of the big portal sites (eg., RealArcade) have some useful tips and information. Finally, as SyneRyder suggested, the ASP has lots of good stuff, but that'll cost you $100. But you can find all these links and more by reading this forum and the Dexterity archives.

In the end, it comes down to this simple fact: no one has figured out the secrets to making successful downloadable games (well, maybe a few have, but they're not talking). So, you'll just have to get by on a diet of vague hints, anecdotes, unsubstantiated rumors, gut instincts, outright lies, and contradictory advice, just like the rest of us. ;)

Dan MacDonald

10-23-2004, 08:15 PM

Amen Paul.

Chris Evans

10-23-2004, 10:30 PM

In the end, it comes down to this simple fact: no one has figured out the secrets to making successful downloadable games (well, maybe a few have, but they're not talking). So, you'll just have to get by on a diet of vague hints, anecdotes, unsubstantiated rumors, gut instincts, outright lies, and contradictory advice, just like the rest of us.

That has to be the funniest but also the most accurate thing I've read here all week. :)

I really feel like the downloadable market is like the Wild West right now. There's a lot of uncharted territory. No one really knows how big the downloadable market is and all the different segments. Occasionally you might find bits and pieces of a treasure map from someone who struck gold already, but there's no clear path.

There seems to be two prominent philosophies among Indies. 1) Try to assemble pieces of a treasure map to find gold from known sources. 2) Venture into unknown territory and hopefully discover an untapped gold resource. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. But I think right now is a great time to be an Indie.

Sillysoft

10-24-2004, 01:40 AM

There really isn't a good place to get reliable stats for downloadable games. You can get download stats from sites like download.com, but those should be taken with a grain of salt--anecdotal evidence suggests that those stats err on the high side. However, they may be useful for gauging relative popularity.
Another thing to bear in mind with regard to download.com stats: I believe that some developers push all their downloads through the hosted download.com file. This makes their number of downloads much higher in comparison to people that host most of their own files.

princec

10-24-2004, 02:11 AM

My market research cost me a year developing a game and a multi-thousand dollar loss on top of the year unpaid developing it.

All the pointers were there to suggest I had the right idea for the product and at the right time and that there was a hungry market. It's a niche product with almost no competition; I hung out in a lot of places and discovered this big retro thing going on and a general wistfulness for the good ol' days of 2D and gameplay rulez; I saw that there were indeed dedicated fans of the genre by looking at some of the (very few) competitors there were.

So was I unlucky that my market research was just so wrong? Or was my research fatally flawed? How could I have improved it? How could I ever get hard facts? How indeed can I learn from the experience when unfortunately I still can't figure out what I did wrong.

In the end of course my biggest mistake was to spend 12 months on it (6 of which were on improvement and support). If I wanted to mitigate bad luck I'd have spent 1 month on it.

Cas :)

mahlzeit

10-24-2004, 04:40 AM

How to do market research:
1) Figure out what everyone else is doing.
2) Do the exact opposite.

Or get on the hughtrain (http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/000823.html).

carl

10-24-2004, 08:54 AM

2) What is considered average. I want to start with a small project as I assume my first game will be no huge success. So, what is the average size of a game considered for shareware. I'd like to spend six to nine months on development. However seeing as my workload is a little more spread out than full-timers, I assume this would be a very small program. My questions regarding this:
What is considered average pricing in this market. For example I would never think to sell a game like this for, lets say, 70$. However, if I sell it too low I may be reducing profits because people would be willing to pay 10$ over 5$ without a huge drop in sales.

3) Can anyone give me a push in the right direction. All I've gotten so far were some vague hints for working on a project that inspires me. That is sort of a given, I wouldn't spend a year working on something I thought sucked. Can anyone tell me what would be a good range of ideas for a beginner to shareware. I know RPG's and huge games are no-no's but are there any ideas that could be made small?

As I understand it from these two questions, you are looking to spend 6 - 9 months developing a game that you can sell to the largest possible market. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Given those assumptions, I would then ask you what you think you could finish in 4 months. The reasons for this question:

1) Unless you have a lot of experience with similar development tasks, you will want to add a safety buffer - doubling the initial estimate is a typical finger in the wind guess.
2) You also need to establish a web presense, set up your payment processing systems, create a strategy for customer service etc. I would want to set aside at least a month for this, possibly more.
3) If you do bring on other team members to generate the assets for the game (music, art) you want to ensure they have enough time to finish their components.

This will narrow the field of all possible game projects to those you can finish inside four months (three if you want to shoot for a six month delivery). How many competitors are there for games of this type? How many games of this type are at the top of the distributors lists?

4) What is the level of importance you find for game quality. We purists all like to say that the games fun level is the most important, but if we consider that with really crappy graphics someone may not even download the demo... Or if we consider that if the game looks low-budget or crappy they will be unwilling to buy it regardless of whether it is fun.

Personally, I find quality extremely important, and chances are your market will as well. The hard part is to identify the elements your market demands high quality for, and the areas where it is not as important. For example, people that play hard core war simulations don't demand the same level of graphics as FPS gamers.

Black Hydra

10-24-2004, 05:11 PM

The 6-9 months is on development. So, website set-up, payment checking, marketing, research and everything else is extra. Basically because I have no idea how long that will take.

I'm aware of the "I can do anything in a week" flaw. In my last project I would plan out stuff to do and grossly go over my estimates. I'm taking a more realistic approach now in planning. But your right, 3-5 months in estimate will equate to about 6-10 in development.

I've been doing 3D mostly right now. I have found that 3D, while no indicator of success, does seem to elude a higher level of work placed into the product. I've noticed that simply being 3D, and by 3D I mean something that has a realistics physics model, not just some puzzle game with 3D graphics, does seem to make people allow for a 5-10$ price increase for something that would take similar amounts of work for 2-D game. However, thats probably necessary considering I may lose some customers due to the more strict computer requirements.

As for team members, I've got none. Its all me. More importantly, I don't need any. As I've said, whatever I don't know I can learn, and whatever I am not great at I can master. I'm fairly artistic so the 3D and 2D have provided me fairly limited trouble in learning. The music is taking a bit longer, but I don't need to have perfectly composed orchestral music for a normal game. Something that is catchy and non-irritating will probably be enough for the game I'm looking for.

I'm having trouble of thinking of small projects. Should I be looking on making games that are non-linear, or games that can be *technically* played to no end because they have no actual ending. Seeing as games that have definite lengths, while awesome, can often rely on alot more work.

I think I'll do a few more tiny projects before making my first step, but pre-planning and training is what I'd like to do right now.

kerchen

10-25-2004, 03:40 PM

The music is taking a bit longer, but I don't need to have perfectly composed orchestral music for a normal game. Something that is catchy and non-irritating will probably be enough for the game I'm looking for.

In your studies of game music, you must read "The Fat Man on Game Audio: Tasty Morsels of Sonic Goodness" by The Fat Man (George Alistair Sanger) ISBN 1-5927-3009-4. The author has composed music for well over one hundred games (possibly more than 200), so he knows game audio. After reading that book, you may want to rethink your take on your game's music.

DFG

10-25-2004, 08:42 PM

I didn't read everyone's responses so forgive any duplication. Here are my suggestions:

1 - Don't feel the need to learn everything at once. Start with what you feel is the biggest priority (i.e. what is going to make you the most money) and learn that beginning with the basics.

2 - Keep from being distracted by things that may not matter right now. I once felt an incredible urge to learn PHP and MySQL but had no real need for it. Would have been a total waste of time and would have hurt my business by stealing time and energy from what really matters.

3 - Beat the learning curve by learning from the real experts, those that have generated a great amount of success and are willing to share. (Pavlina's got some great advice in his articles, I read them all and applied what I could because I knew he was successful and I saw great wisdom in what he shared)

4 - Avoid following the crowd just because everyone else is. Make sure you have a good reason for doing whatever it is you choose to do. Resist pressure from the popular opinion, especially if it is not backed up with solid, scientific data.

5 - Rely on data/good studies and research whenever possible. Everybody will give you an opinion but many times it is just that and has no factual basis whatsoever.

6 - Use your cash wisely. For books, don't buy, rely heavily on the library if you can. If you need to buy, buy used (half.com, Amazon used etc.). Dont' buy things you don't need or can get for free (especially software, and ESPECIALLY Microsoft software). Be very disciplined about your spending, especially in the beginning. As you go you will get a feel for what is better to hire out rather than do yourself.

7 - Keep up that learning spirit you have. That may be your most valuable asset. What is important is not where you are at now, but where you are going. A humble willingness to learn the very best and dilligently apply it will get you very, very far no matter what career you choose.

I wish you the best.

Uhfgood

10-25-2004, 10:42 PM

I'm just curious here, but did my post here get deleted?

Keith

Black Hydra

10-26-2004, 03:39 PM

For the game audio point, maybe a little hint at what you feel I will *rethink* after reading his book? Unless the book is teaching that it is impossible to learn without years of experience, I don't think I have that many *thoughts* made up on game audio so I'm not sure what your getting at. If that is the case I won't read that book.

I have found that there are two types of advice you will get. Negative advice warning you about the perils of doing this, and positive or "real" advice. I don't listen to negative advice so I leave that there.

-------

I really agree with what advice you gave me. I see far too often advice that is not logical and based on emotions. Saying 'do something you feel passionately about' isn't really advice. I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't feel passionately about it, and I can spend months or years working on something I felt passionately abou that nobody else did.

Market trends change, but I've noticed that the change is gradual and is not driven by the gamer's wants but what the industry says they are. I think the key must be to ride this wave of enthusiasm for a product (Tell someone they want something and they will want it) but at the same time keeping your distance so that you don't have to compete with the high competition that this industry creates.

I think the hardest part is to determine what is a general trend amongst all gamers or ones that are more localized to the shareware market. For example puzzle games dominate this region, while maintaining an even stance in retail.

I guess what I need to do is just explore until I feel I have a good idea. If I don't expect to make much from my first product, then I can focus on learning rather than making money.

kerchen

10-26-2004, 07:29 PM

For the game audio point, maybe a little hint at what you feel I will *rethink* after reading his book? Unless the book is teaching that it is impossible to learn without years of experience, I don't think I have that many *thoughts* made up on game audio so I'm not sure what your getting at. If that is the case I won't read that book.

I have found that there are two types of advice you will get. Negative advice warning you about the perils of doing this, and positive or "real" advice. I don't listen to negative advice so I leave that there.

When you said that "catchy and non-irritating" would be good enough for your game, you described a situation that rarely happens, because catchy usually becomes irritating long before the game has run its lifespan on a particular user's computer. The Fat Man book makes a good argument for making game audio that's more than just "good enough." Negative advice quite often keeps one alive (both literally and figuratively); without negative advice it would be pretty diffcult to learn from others' mistakes. And, since no one's figured out the magic formula for making hit games, sometimes the best you can do is to find out what doesn't work and make sure you don't do the same thing. Good luck with your game!

Black Hydra

10-29-2004, 09:58 AM

@kerchen - Well I guess I'll just have to read that book now won't I?

But I think you misunderstood me. When I said negative advice I mean advice that is generally from people who have failed and they are mostly complaining about how hard it is. Negative comments are only useful if there is a way to fix it. Saying, this is really hard, don't do it. Doesn't give me any help.

If you said "I didn't like your game.... you should have done xxx" then that is a valid and pertanent statement.

Is that book a big selller? I know it would be useful, but I'm wondering how hard it will be for me to find it.

kerchen

10-29-2004, 06:15 PM

Ah, I understand now. I agree: having someone tell you you can't do something simply because they couldn't do it usually isn't very useful. As for the book, I don't know how well it sold, but it's available on Amazon here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1592730094/qid=1099102385/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4553911-5968013?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). It's a quirky, amusing read which may be off-putting at times, but I found it to be very useful in reshaping my thinking about game audio.

Davaris

10-29-2004, 09:36 PM

>When I said negative advice I mean advice that is generally from people who have failed and they are mostly complaining about how hard it is. Negative comments are only useful if there is a way to fix it. Saying, this is really hard, don't do it. Doesn't give me any help

It doesn't matter where you get advice from if its sound. One of the things you should look at closely is successful indies like Steve Pavlina and Goodsol. They usually have one cash cow game. Steve Pavlina has Dweep and other people wrote the remaining games on his site. He is smart in that he's moving away from development and into publishing so he can spread his risk. Also you should know that Steve has failed when he's done his market research. Recently he was convinced there was a market for casual strategy games and he was working on his own strategy game. Unfortunately he was wrong and it didn't pan out.

My opinion on market research is that it is similar to knowing the odds for card games. It works if you're making 50 or 100 games, but you have to be lucky for it to work if you are making one game (like most Indies are forced to do). Think of the big publishers. They have people with business degrees doing their market research and they have lots of failures and go bankrupt on a regular basis (Interplay a company that has been around since the late 80s or early 90s has just gone to the wall). I've read that the failure rate for AAA titles is around 80% and the top 20% of AAA titles pay for the failures.

P.S.
Steve and Goodsol: no offence intended guys.

>really hard, don't do it. Doesn't give me any help

All we are saying is have a backup plan in case you fail.

Promaginy

10-30-2004, 11:33 AM

Hi all. This is my first post and must say this bulletin board is fantastic. It is great to meet people who are trying to do the same thing.

Black Hydra, your post speaks to me because I too am going through the exact same thing. Fortunately I am right now taking an Intro to Marketing course which is super and is helping me think about how to get our first title into the minds of customers.

So, whereas I don't speak from experience, I may have some ideas that may help you.

It is great you are seeing the making of a game as a viable business. That will set you apart from the amateurs (Dexterity's Articles refer to this). The goal of every business is to sustain itself which requires a profit motive.

So how do you make a profit? You need to know your customer. The marketing course I am taking emphasizes that too many business fail because it has a production mentality and not a marketing mentality. Example: a company that creates dot-matrix printers and does not adapt because all of its capital (training, equipment) is tied up into the old product will find it really hard to survive. It has expertise but it is expertise that few (if anybody) is willing to pay for.

The reason why so many game companies are going out of business is because they don't understand their market. If they did, they would produce games that did not cost as much to make and appeal to smaller, targetted groups. The problem is that most companies are locked into a business model of creating hugely expensive games so they could create a block buster. That model works fine but only a small number of companies can be there.

Marketing research means getting to know what websites your customers would frequent, the types of games they like to play, how much are they willing to pay, and how they like to receive their games. You should know the demographics of your target population. You then create a marketting mix (product, price, promotion, and place) that will appeal to that group.

Derek Smart of 300AD is controversial, but is a living example of this. His products are not that visually sexy, have a steep learning curve, and have technical problems, yet he has managed to capture a large enough niche market that he dominates. This is why he is still in business and doing what he loves.

How do you do research? Go to Stats Canada, Wired.com, or other websites and start with know how many potential customers are there. Go to Download.com and you can get a decent idea of what is popular and by the reviews why it is or isn't. Once you get your target markets, name them (the Soccer Moms, Retro Freaks) and figure out how to appeal to them.

Black Hydra

10-30-2004, 02:56 PM

Just to comment on the last posts (sorry, but it seems few people here have an easy to remember forum name...)

Marketing Research can only give you a vague sketch, it can't tell you what will win or lose. What I figure I will do is look for a catagory where I think there are customers, figure out what guidelines for my game will produce the best results, and then try making something fitting those rules that I want to make. Designing a quick proto-type was also suggested, so I will probably try that too, get a view on whether my idea is great or just good (or worse, bad :rolleyes: )

In response to the last poster, you have finally helped me answer one of the questions from here. I needed to know WHERE to look. So I'm going to check those links right away.

My general idea, from what I've learned so far, is that designing/planning something takes one thousandth of the time to make something. So that is where you do most of the testing and decisions if at all possible. So I need to know these before even starting to make my game:

-Full Design of Game
-How I will sell the game
-Who I am targeting with the game
-What tools I will use to attract customers
-A full outline from start to finish of all the steps necessary to complete and sell my game.

I've been very cautious lately about thinking too seriously about a game idea, as I don't want to get my hopes up and later realize its not feasable. So, now that I have some links I can go and get a much better picture so I can start planning.

Thanks everyone.

paulm

11-03-2004, 06:28 PM

With regards to which game idea you wish to pursue, the best advice is start small and simple and work your way up. How that translates into your working practice is up to you, but I'll give you my experience as a guide.

The idea I've used for my first project is a multiplayer 2D shooter at its base level. This would bore me normally, so what I did was brainstorm about how I could alter the gameplay to make it different from your standard shooter. Thankfully, I've come up with some intriguing ways of altering the gameplay, so it certainly will look and feel different.

Start with a simple idea, and twist. If you've got the brains to do art, music and code, then you've got the brains to innovate with your design as well.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Paul.

Nexic

11-05-2004, 01:52 AM

I started out at this when I was 16, and things were okay. But to be honset I have only recently started making a decent money (Im 18 now).

Im sure someone else may have replied to this and said the same thing - but dont use darkbasic. My first 2 games were done with that are really simple, really slow, and only achieve about 0.15% and 0.3% conversion ratio. Most of the people who did buy those games told me that they were slow, and their machine had constant problems running them - this was probably a major reason why my games failed so badly (that and they were not that great anyway).

Arch Wing would have been much more polished if I felt I could have added polish without raising the system requirements. Every time I added a few more objects to the screen the speed would drop 10% or more. So I was left with a game with minimal special effects, tons of bugs, and a high system requirement.

My latest game uses BlitzBasic (it took me only two hours to learn due to the good help). That game has loads of enemies on the screen, loads of particle effects and is hugely faster than my previous games. It runs on all the systems Ive tested it on, where as the previous games barely worked on 75% of them. If you play one of my DarkBasic games, then play my Blitz game you wouldnt think it was the same person who made them.

Yes, DarkBasic is worthless.

Black Hydra

11-05-2004, 08:26 PM

To be fair, Dark Basic Professional does a much better job at efficiency than Classic ever did.

But you are right, I do plan to expand my language capabilities. I already know C++ but, I don't know DirectX and the likes. Once I feel comfortable with everything else I will try out C++ or C#.

DBPro and Blitz are much more comparable in terms. I may learn Blitz, but I feel that, at the moment that would be a tremendous waste of my time. I'd rather not complicate things by learning another languange when I'm still learning a zillion other things.

I want to at least start in DBPro. If I find that the conditions aren't very good, then I will make a move. But, I need to experience this firsthand. Seeing as I already own the compiler, and I already know the language.

Maybe I could see some of your stuff?

Nexic

11-06-2004, 02:01 AM

When I said DarkBasic I meant DBPro. Seriously Blitz is well worth learning and it has a very similar syntax to DBpro anyway. If Xeno Assault was done on DBPro it wouldnt get more than 5 fps on my machine - in blitz it does 80 odd.

Black Hydra

11-06-2004, 07:57 AM

I'll check out Blitz. However, I've been finding more and more that there are always things you need to buy and learn so I need to prioritize. I doubt I will buy and learn a new language when I am still trying to learn everything else.

DBPro does have higher requirements than Blitz, so I'm sure that can be a factor. Personally when you made the statement that you had 'tons of bugs' and that additions were killing your framerates makes me think that the code probably wasn't optimized very well and 'bugs' generally has to do with the problem of the programmer not the compiler. If it works on Blitz with sufficient speed then that definitely makes it useful. However, I am very skeptical when I see someone saying you cannot do anything with DBPro, seeing as I have seen and played some excellent games on it and my computer is incredibly poor (5 years old...)

However, Blitz is definitely worth a check.

One question I must ask is if Blitz has the same, or better, low-level access that DBPro did. That was one of their major pitch's and selling points was to have lower-level access than most comparable systems.

I'll check it out and maybe try the demo.

Black Hydra

11-06-2004, 09:33 AM

I can see what you meant about Blitz. There seems to be a much higher priority in optimization.

It looks very cool, however I have to disagree that it makes DBPro inferior. It definitely has its pro's, however, there were a few things in it where I liked DBPro's system better.

But, I know many DBPro users also use Blitz Basic, so I think it may be a wise move.

Once I save up a bit of money I will probably get Blitz3D seeing as it will expand the variety of programs I can make.

Nexic

11-07-2004, 06:18 AM

Im not saying you can't do anything with DBPro - Im just saying at the end of the day you will find you life a hell of a lot easier with Blitz, in my opinion anyway.

Black Hydra

11-07-2004, 03:19 PM

I've been reviewing the program and I think that to simply ditch DBPro and go to Blitz because of some optimizing issues would be foolhardy. From what I've seen there definitely is some advantages to using Blitz, but I think that learning a new language and buying it will probably add to my list of problems more than it will relieve them immediately. If I'm finding the same problems you had for your games then I will switch, but currently I'm leaning to blame any problems I have on code over compiler unless I get enough experience to judge otherwise.

I have to question your optimizing a little with your code seeing as you claim huge changes in framerates between the two. I know for a fact that the first program I made, there were so many optimization blunders that it was laughable. Fortunately the game wasn't too performance intensive to make a signifigant dent, but I know I would have made it at least 3x as fast if were to have made it now.

But, I'll definitely keep Blitz in mind when I feel like I have a little more time to focus on a new language, (currently the amount things I have to learn is too staggering). Thanks for that.

HunterSD

11-07-2004, 08:38 PM

Blitz3D is infinitely more suited to shareware than DB Pro. It's faster, more stable, produces smaller EXEs and requires only DirectX 7, where DB Pro requires DirectX 9+ (I don't follow DBP's development). If you're in the middle of a game I probably wouldn't advise switching, but if you're not, I guarantee you'll be happy with your choice if you decide to switch.

Black Hydra

11-08-2004, 12:06 PM

I'm not in the middle of a game, so I guess making a decision now would probably be better than when I have regrets later.

I do think Blitz definitely has some advantages, but are these advantages worth adapting to a new language and setting me back 120$?

Nexic

11-08-2004, 02:19 PM

Yes! I had the same worries when switched from DBpro to Blitz. But seriously you can learn the Blitz syntax in no time. Litterally I only spent a few hours getting to grips with it and then I started a full scale project. The syntax and style is almost identical to DBPro. I am 110% certain that if you switch now you will be very happy with the outcome.

Black Hydra

11-08-2004, 07:23 PM

You know what I hate most. That your right.

Blitz has many features I want, it appears to be much faster and give me more control. Damn you! Now I need to spend 120$. Why couldn't Blitz just suck... :rolleyes:

I've been working with the code and it is very similar to DBPro. The use of entities instead of individual settings is much better allowing for more control over objects and the likes. Brushes are also an excellent idea for storing things uniformly.

There doesn't seem to be any Remstart/Remend or C++ /* */ commands to comment off whole sections of code. I dislike the default IDE, but that is really irrelevant. If it is a better tool then the IDE is mostly icing.

I hate to bother you guys, but their forums are off-limits to me. I don't see what I'm screwing up with some of this filesaving commands. Obviously there is a subtle difference between DBPro and Blitz for filesaving...

If anyone can tell me what I've done then I'd be grateful.
It displays the values right, but then after loading them they are all 8 (guessing some kind of default value?).

Dim FileArray(10)
Print("Enter in a value to seed file with: ")
SeedValue = Input()
;Seed some numbers For a file
For Counter = 1 To 10
FileArray(Counter) = SeedValue*Counter
Next
;Display the initial values
Print("Values Before seed:")
For Display = 1 To 10
Print(FileArray(Display))
Next
;Write the file
File = WriteFile("temp.txt")
If File = 0 Then Print("File couldn't be written!")
For Counter = 1 To 10
WriteInt(File, FileArray(Counter))
Next
CloseFile(File)
Print("File written!")
Delay 1500
File = ReadFile("temp.txt")
If File = 0 Then Print("File couldn't be read!")
For Counter = 1 To 10
FileArray(9-Counter) = ReadInt(File)
Next
Delay 1500
Print("File read and inversed!")
;Display the New, inversed file
Print("New Values: ")
For Display = 1 To 10
Print(FileArray(Counter))
Next
CloseFile(File)