Portals some good some bad and some lie

[Dyno Kid]

Hi guys,

Dyno Kid is finished !!! This is my first game and has taken 4-5 months to complete and done on a shoe string budget (under £300) it started out as a "Can i do this" project and ended up being such an original concept that it took over my life and turned me into a full time developer!!!

The demo i sent to portals is here-

DYNO_KID_DEMO (http://saga.g4me.net/Filebase?Download=2566)

So far Big Fish and Oberon have said "YES" and Big Fish have been with me all the way with excellent feedback and suggestions. Real arcade, Reflective have said "NO"

But this thread is about some of the emails I had back as they really make you smile.

Why cant portals just be honest...If they dont want/like your game then why beat around the bush and say something like "Due to the high intake of games we cant fit it in our system" "The game has great game mechanics and is very original but our users might find it too hard"

With 4 difficulty levels I find that one a little funny:P

A simple no and an honest reason why would be a lot more constructive for a developer who may then decide to change a few things to keep them happy.

Come on portals give it to us straight ...we can take it !!! lol

One other thing....why is it so hard on some sites to find that special link "submit your game" some make it near impossible.

Gl with your games.

Darren.

Ps I'm currently looking for more portals...

[Tertsi]

Make a website, add it there and make a press release. That's the best place for an original game which isn't exactly casual. (I don't know but so the portals imply). There's many more portals too though, and they are listed here (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=2720).

[TimS]

"The game has great game mechanics and is very original but our users might find it too hard"

I think "this game has great game mechanics and is original but our users might not find the production quality up to today's standard..." would have been more appropriate. The technical implementation of the graphics is pretty bad, the walk cycle isn't even smoothly repeating (and that's pretty much all the game IS, is that walk cycle) and everything has this crunchy 1994 edge to it that just won't work in today's market. Also, sound production is very amateur (not BAD per se... just clearly not professionally done).

I know this thread isn't the "feedback request" or anything, but I've worked portal acquisition before, and you requested honesty from the portal guys who are giving you flak, so I'll give you the honest line I'd've given you back then if this ran across my desk.

Incidentally I ALWAYS found it to be way more useful to be ridiculously honest with developers... Hell, I was telling lots of guys that they likely wouldn't make any money off of our portal (and what do you know, they didn't!)... At any rate -- honesty made for good up-front relationships with folks, and I agree wholeheartedly with you that anyone giving you random BS answers is a hack and shouldn't be doing the job they're doing.

Summary -- Get thee to an artist!

My 2 cents.

-Tim

[terin]

Darren,

What good would it do a portal (or any potential future business partner) to "give it to you straight?" Sure you can handle it, but what about... oh... who to pick on... Lets say Mark Fascett :) What if Mark was offended by what they said?

The result of "telling it straight" is that they would potentially alienate a future partner, when telling it softly results in keeping their doors open.

Be happy they told you anything at all :) Sometimes the best (and often used) policy is to never say no; and I certainly understand that is far more frustrating... but also actually the smartest - while it annoys people I can't recall anyone ever disavowing to use a portal because they never said no.

-Joe

[PeterM]

Hello,

I just had a go of the demo, and unfortunately I would agree that media quality is probably why the game is having difficulty at some portals.

The sound and art need a bit of work, and the game needs more overall polish.

Edit: I just wanted to add that for a first game under such a small budget, you've done very well indeed. Good luck and keep up the good work.

Pete

[Polycount Productions]

Dyno Kid is finished !!! This is my first game and has taken 4-5 months to complete and done on a shoe string budget (under £300) it started out as a "Can i do this" project and ended up being such an original concept that it took over my life and turned me into a full time developer!!!
Congratulations for finishing your game - that's always a tough challenge for anyone! :)

Why cant portals just be honest...If they dont want/like your game then why beat around the bush and say something like "Due to the high intake of games we cant fit it in our system" "The game has great game mechanics and is very original but our users might find it too hard"

With 4 difficulty levels I find that one a little funny:P

Perhaps it really is difficult to learn the game? Maybe you would need to add more tutorials or tooltips or some other step-by-step guiding on how th game works... and how can you manage.

They might give you funny answers... but sometimes there might be seed of truth in their feedback. Try to find that - even when sometimes it might be difficult :)

A simple no and an honest reason why would be a lot more constructive for a developer who may then decide to change a few things to keep them happy.
Aye... everybody is so "busy" these days...

[Dyno Kid]

I think the graphics could be better as with most games but the game is all about the original gameplay and im really happy with the end result for the budget (£300) and 4 months hard work and that Big Fish and Oberon have taken it onboard.

Just a quick Thank you to all that have given me advice as I was (and still are) learning the trade.

Cheers Guys and I will let you know how it does.

Darren.

[Nexic]

Great that Oberon and BigFish are interested, well done on that.

[arcadetown]

It's easy to love someone that says yes. Unfortunately we've learned that people can sometimes take rejection a little too personally so it's better simply not to say say anything than to say no. A yes comes somewhat easier when a portal needs a new game every day. Oberon is pretty picky so a yes from them was a solid accomplishment you should be proud of. I bet your future games will be even better.

Edit: Also like TotalGaming it's hard to find time to give feedback on every submission, the main reason for our current policy.

[Mark Fassett]

Why would I be offended by what Real Arcade has to say? I don't really care for the vast majority of the games they publish. And Terin - if you're going to pick on someone, at least spell their name right :)

[terin]

Oh you think you're the only Mark Fascet in the world? Hmm!? :)

Haha, ok so next time I will just make fun of someone with an easier name.

-Joe

[Yarlen]

I tend not to have time these days to give detailed feedback on every submission, but will when the developer asks for it.

[Snooker]

We try to be accurate and concise in our rejections, letting devs know up front that the game was rejected, then giving a brief rundown of why. As was mentioned already, we don't want to slam doors in faces; we'd love to work with a dev that's figured our market out and has built a better game for us to review later.

For the record, none of the OP's quotes came from us. ;)

[Dyno Kid]

I do believe real said no because its very original and players have to use the arrow keys.

It works a lot better with the keys as I have tried both options and a mouse control is simply out of the question.

If you change your mind you know where to find me:)

Play the final demo here (http://www.dynokid.com)

Working on the site and as someone has already said its looking better.

Darren.

[tewe76]

1- Congrats and good luck!
2- I'm really impressed big portals accepted your game. Understand me. I like the idea of your game and i love the name DynoKid, but it clearly needs polish (mine too (http://www.tapazapa.com/Games/FairyMatch/index.htm), of course). Good news for first time indies with zero budget :)
3- Can't understand why don't you enable mouse control. Let keyboard optional if you want to, but implement mouse control, it's an easy thing...

[sillytuna]

Darren, mouse control would be extremely easy on this game. You should definitely add it.

[Bmc]

if this is the game with the arrows, I pretty much spelt it for him (how he could add mouse control).

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showpost.php?p=105424&postcount=7

it would actually be more intuitive than the arrow keys.

However, not my game, not my call ...

[LilGames]

I think the graphics could be better as with most games but the game is all about the original gameplay and im really happy with the end result for the budget (£300) and 4 months hard work and that Big Fish and Oberon have taken it onboard.

To YOU it's all about gameplay, but to customers, it's about a complete package. You're coming off as if getting onto some portals is all it takes and now you're gonna make millions. (doesn't work that way)

[Dyno Kid]

There is NO WAY this game would work with the mouse...I have tried it!!!

Some of the later levels have speed arrows that are close to each other making a mouse control impossible.

Play the demo here and you will understand- Dyno Kid (http://www.dynokid.com)

I tried left click and right click to rotate the arrows clock wise and anti clock wise and you simply havent got time to click click click and also its very confusing.

The early levels yes you could use mouse controls but later on the hard levels there is no way it can be done as the pace really hots up and the arrows are next to each other.

Believe me I have tried it......arrow keys work great its just a little differnt so after the 1st few levels it becomes a natural thing.

Darren.

[sillytuna]

Darren, you may need to be a little more flexible. Your customers come first, let them have the option. Maybe they'll start on the mouse and then use the keyboard, but they should have the option if you're in the standard casual market.

I've played games where the user can use a mouse but just clicks 2-4 icons representing their choice.

You may be right for later in the game, but give the user the choice.

[Sharpfish]

Lack of Mouse control is definitely the "stand out" reason that this game doesn't feel as polished as it could for me. I'm an old time gamer who grew up using Q/A/O/P on the Spectrum and have no problem using keys. However you need to research the market more and find out what sells then 'bend' your game design towards the common factors enjoyed by the audience you are aiming for, that is if sales is your goal and not some claim at being "unique".

I know it's not easy or cost-effective to spend an extra month working out a robust way to add mouse control that you may not be 100% happy with, but perhaps rather than thinking it's impossible due to the game design, you change the game design a little to make it possible.

And I don't mean to sound like I'm having a go but in every post about your game you have put how "original" it is, but the only original thing about it is the control method. There are plenty of 2D top down and Isometric games that have used an abstract directional control method to guide your avatar to some goal, though I concede most of them offer direct control (perhaps because they have their gameplay in other areas than the forced restriction of the direct control they allow over the player character). I'm not saying it's not different to your typical match-3 portal offering but it's very similar to many other (older) games, it gave me a retro feel anyway.

I think Arcade town hit on another valid point that because your game (or anyone's game) is accepted on a portal it doesn't validate it's worthiness to anyone. It's the sales figures that count, people putting their money where their mouths are. And to get good sales figures you are going to have to cater to a wider audience. That audience 9 times out of 10 prefer to use the mouse for casual/semi casual gaming and they also enjoy decent levels of polish and higher (and quicker) incentives/rewards in their gaming.

Of course you probably consider it too late to do anything else to dynokid (which is something a lot of people desperate to move on to their next game typically think) but once you release a game, if you ever thought it was worth it, then it's worth it to tweak and update as feedback comes in. If you can't then just take all the advice in this thread and apply it to your next game so you don't box yourself into a corner with things like control methods and what have you.

Good luck though!

[Drake]

I played the demo, and I think mouse gestures could work. No clicks, just a quick nudge in one of the four directions. If they register quickly enough, you could perform several gestures within a second.

[TimS]

No clicks, just a quick nudge in one of the four directions.

That's the first thing that crossed my mind, too... I think it'd work pretty well.

That said, I also don't think good mouse control is going to change any portals' minds despite the stated reasons for not taking it.

And I'd still play with the keyboard ;) .

-Tim

[Bad Sector]

If you add mouse support, can you please add gamepad support. Such games work very good with gamepads...

(and i have two gamepads - one analog and one digital - to use... :-)

[Dyno Kid]

Thanks guys,

I will look further into it for my next game that me and an artist friend might be doing.

I like the idea of the nudge left with the mouse and that could work but not click click.

Of course just because its going on a couple of portals I dont think it will just sell millions but for my 1st game Im really pleased with the game.

Thanks for all the suggestions and positive feedback you guys have been fantastic.

I need to drum up some sales from my site any ideas (cheap ideas)

Darren.

[amaranth]

Just wanted to add my two cents...

If you get rejected from a portal, I would contact them, but don't do the old "why didn't you take my game" routine. Instead, tell them thanks for reviewing the game and ask them what you can do to improve the games you plan to submit in the future. I did that and I've gotten some pretty good feedback. The most important tip was to add mouse control to my games.

I know it bites not to get in every door, but even cracking open a few is a good place to start.

[Davaris]

I will look further into it for my next game that me and an artist friend might be doing.


You'd be nuts to "look into it for your next game"! It has a great name and a great casual game play mechanic. Now all you have to do is finish it off with polish. I think DynoKid could make a lot of money if it was done right.

P.S.
Another thing to consider: If you don't finish your games properly, other people will clone them, raise the quality bar and take all of the credit and the money. I've seen it happen here.

[TimS]

You'd be nuts to "look into it for your next game"! It has a great name and a great casual game play mechanic. Now all you have to do is finish it off with polish. I think DynoKid could make a lot of money if it was done right.

I've got to agree with Davaris here, especially considering the distance between your current state and a much better one is pretty small.

If you've got an artist friend in-hand, so to speak, I'd wager that within 2 weeks you could make a huge improvement...

1) - Give the artist every sprite in the game and tell him to redo them and that they have two weeks... (assuming the artist friend is good) :D
2) - Spend One week yourself implementing and fine-tuning a mouse control system that works
3) - Give a pro (I'd vote for Huang (http://www.gamenoise.com/)) a copy of the game (so they can see the main idea and the tension, etc.) and $60 or whatever they charge for a new main soundtrack.
4) - find a clean recording environment and re-record the sound effects (or have a pro do it)

I suppose it could be a losing proposition, but I'd rather finish a game to 'modern' standards before trying to sell it than try to sell 5 games from 1996 in today's market.

Could just be me?

Best of luck either way!

-T

[impossible]

I suppose it could be a losing proposition, but I'd rather finish a game to 'modern' standards before trying to sell it than try to sell 5 games from 1996 in today's market.

Could just be me?
No, it's not just you, I have first hand experience with this on multiple titles. DynoKid, everything these people are saying is 100% true, you can not listen to them, but you'll find out soon enough from how the market reacts to your game.

[z3lda]

Just clone his game already :p

[Marshall]

No need to clone it. You can already play it for free with much better graphics and more polished gameplay:
chick adventure (http://www.funflashgames.com/chickadventure.htm).

Click the upper button and then click through the interstitial to start (sorry, it's in Japanese, but you'll get the game right away).

There are a lot more like this one, look for flash games online..

Marshall.

[Olivier]

chick adventure (http://www.funflashgames.com/chickadventure.htm)
Mmmm.. nice and easy concept. I'm gonna clone this one! :D

[z3lda]

These variations just remind me of chuchu rocket. Now that was a great game.

[Dyno Kid]

Chu Chu and Lolo gave me the insperation for Dyno Kid.

Yes it is a great idea with great mechanics and yes the graphics could be better but its a no for mouse controls on this one as the pace is just too fast.

Darren.

[Anthony Flack]

My game doesn't work as well with the mouse either, when you get up to the harder stages. But I still have mouse control in there. I also have a very easy difficulty setting, and the option to slow the game down, and the mouse works better in this context.

People who are more likely to play with the mouse are also more likely to want the game to not be too hard.

[amaranth]

People who are more likely to play with the mouse are also more likely to want the game to not be too hard.

Or maybe not... I think mouse games are difficult in a different sort of way than typical joystick games...

[Anthony Flack]

Well, I mean that in the context of an arcade-style game, ie a joystick-oriented game that has been adapted to use the mouse. But please do elaborate - it's an interesting topic.