desc tags: game design, philosophy, doing your own thing

[formfarbeminze]

split off from thread "Refugees from the Mainstream Games Industry ..."

Still, the indie scene has a special lure for me. I'm not able to design my own games where I work and that's something I really want to be able to do(and am doing, as an indie). I want to be able to come up with cool game ideas and make them a reality. Is that ego? I don't know...

my take on this matter: regarding the subject, our universe is a resource of unlimited possibilities for doing a game. as well as for being a personality. it is just about choosing to make one particular version of 'game' become real. the same way as the 'game designer' is one special instance of class 'personality'. making your game is then using the method 'game' of class 'universe' with parameters of instance 'game designer' of class 'personality'. the parameters are there anyway. the question is which medium you choose to highlight that content.

express yourself. you do it, in one way or the other anyway. just choose your way/medium. and: the medium is the message.

so is it 'ego' to insist of living not only as worker within the games industry, but also to create excactly the games one has inside?

sure it is 'ego'. at least the same way as any choice you do where your own preferences play the no 1 role. is choosing a profession 'ego'?

maybe it is a present: after all, you are the only instance of personality who can give those 'parameters' to this world...

there are both sides imo. i am writing this post to give but to receive also.

[Sunshine]

The way I see it it is just a natural progression:

Teamwork and accomplishment in a group are a stage. The community effort can create great things when you work together.

But the question always nags in the mind: What am *I* capable of?


Socialism vs. Capitalism
Basketball vs. The slamdunk contest
Baseball Outfield team vs. Baseball at-bat team

Of course not everyone can achieve at this level, Who was it that said "We can't all be captains, we must be crew" ?

[BongPig]

"We can't all be captains, we must be crew"

Spot on Sunshine. That pretty much sums it up.

To explain my constant reference to big egos, ill ask this question.

Do we want to:-

a) Make great games.
b) Make great games on our own.

For me the answer is A. If I could work with some talented people who really know thier shit, to produce some great games, I would be very happy, even if the ideas, concepts and styles of the game had nothing to do with me. Ive got no problem working under quality people with quality ideas. We all have room to grow after all... dont we?

However, it does seem to me ( and I could be wrong here ) that for many, its just as important to do it all themselves. This is where fat Egos come in. Like thats what the best thing about being a developer. To be in complete control.
However, complete control does not equal the best games, as 95% of us are not capable. Simple as that.

I couldnt care less what im personally capable of. I just want to be involved in games that kick ass.

[Diodor Bitan]

Nobody worries about their egos when they start working on a book without a team. Just because movies need big teams it doesn't mean games need them as well.

[Jack Norton]

Well my order is inverse:
a) make my OWN games
b) make games

I think making games as an art, and I'd like to do it my way following my ideas, etc. If that's not possible, I'd be happy (but not as happy as in the first case) to simply contribute to make a good game.

[BongPig]

So the opportunity to work with talented people to IMPROVE your own art doesnt appeal to anybody except me?

I really dont understand games people sometimes. Especially indies.

[Diodor Bitan]

Original post by BongPig
So the opportunity to work with talented people to IMPROVE your own art doesnt appeal to anybody except me?

While "learning" and "working" do overlap more than a bit, they remain very distinct words.

It is true that you can't learn some things except by by doing them, but I wonder, do I really want to learn those things taught at the school of big team games? Will they teach me how to make games alone or in a very small team? Isn't it natural to work in small teams/alone if you want to improve your ability to do just that?

I don't want to become that legendary game designer of the AAA studios that commands an army of programmers and artists and designers. I want to make my own tiny great games. I don't want to improve my ability to design AAA games, because I don't aim to be captain on those ships. I like my little boat, and rowing along is just fine, thank you very much. :)

[BongPig]

Why do you assume im always talking about bloody AAA games. So, working with other human beings in any form equals AAA style rubbish!?
Some of you seem to be locked into this black and white view. Its either indie, or it HAS to be AAA. No greys at all. Blinkerd or what?

Bah! ... I give up.

[Diodor Bitan]

Bah! ... I give up.

Great! Now you've made me forget my point. Well, you're right, and to the extent that I was contradicting you, I was wrong. :)

[carl]

So the opportunity to work with talented people to IMPROVE your own art doesnt appeal to anybody except me?

Definitely. I have changed jobs for the opportunity to work with a talented team. While I enjoy the opportunities for growth that this provides, I also want to bring my vision to life. Why not strive for the best of both worlds, building a talented team to collaborate on a project near and dear to your heart?

[moonpxi]

I admit, for once, that I would be really tempted to work in a mainstream game company, at least for a while. Specially if such company really have talented individuals who I can work with.

[Coyote]

Been there, done that, got lots of T-Shirts. Wouldn't mind doing it again if the right opportunity presented itself.

I'm not sure I understand the original question. I love the ability to express myself in creating games. I started doing it solo, but I found I needed help on the way because I lack certain skills. No shame in that.

Working in the mainstream doesn't mean you do AAA games. Not in the least. Usually it meas something else entirely, unfortunately. And the AAA games are *usually* clones and sequels. Sad but true. Look at your own list of games that you are anxiously waiting for... how many of them have a number after the name? The previous versions act as great marketing for the sequels... it's tough to beat. But for every mainstream company that gets mentioned where there are blowing millions for the next AAA game, there are probably twenty struggling from contract to contract, trying to survive and pay their overworked employees something more than starvation wages. Every once in a while they get lucky.

Void War was a game I wanted to do because nobody else had done it yet. That's now been done. There's another game on the horizon I want to do for sheer creative / artistic reasons (plus I think it would be really cool). But now I'm thinking of indie games as a business and not just a hobby, so I am not just restricting myself to doing 'ego' games that I wanna do. I won't make a game that I have no interest in playing, but I'm willing to tackle projects that are more 'marketable,' I guess.

[kerchen]

I'm with BongPig: I just want to make fun games. If they also happen to be my own ideas, that's a bonus but certainly not a requirement.

As for learning from others, I think a lot of what you can pick up from others is universally applicable--game design, slick coding tricks, UI design, color theory, game pacing, clear & concise writing, etc. are all things you can learn from others and apply to any game. And the more you learn, the better off you'll be as a "lone wolf" if that's your bag.

[SyneRyder]

Reading through this thread, it seems there are two views - some people just want to make fun games, others want to make fun games of their own vision. Working with other people may help improve the game, or it may not. Working with others may diminish the original vision, or it may not.

I think for many indies, it's an art form - they'd like to control the creative direction, and be entitled to the credit for it. Working with others might not improve the product in that case. I think Sunshine was spot on with the comment "What am *I* capable of?", for some it's an opportunity to see what they can achieve personally. Working with others diminishes that, it's no longer as clear how much was achieved by your own efforts.

That's not to say that Indies must work solo or anything like that. I'm not going to enter into that debate, on either side :) Just saying there's different ways of looking at this, it depends what you're desired outcome is.

[Reactor]

I like my little boat, and rowing along is just fine, thank you very much. :)

LOL

I don't know about you guys, but when I sit back and have a look at what I've done, I have a hard time believing it came from me. After a little while, I forget all of the work that went into it, and I look at things on screen, as if someone else had done it, and handed it to me. It's at that point I see a game and not an achievement. Whether I was the driving force behind the game or not has no real baring for me, after everything is finished- the final product is a game, just like every other.

[BongPig]

I just want to make fun games. If they also happen to be my own ideas, that's a bonus but certainly not a requirement.

Thanks kerchen. thats a much nicer way of putting it. Of course I would *rather* do everything myself if I could.
BUT, the most important thing is making good games. First and very much foremost.

Ill climb down of my high horse for a minute and accept that this isnt everybodys view. To some, seeing just how far you can push your personal abilities seems just as ( if not more so ) important as actually making the games. Its not fair of me to call them ego-maniacs, and for that I apologise.

I still dont understand it though!

[Rainer Deyke]

Personally I hate working with other people. Not because I feel that I am better than them, but just because of personal preference and poor social skills. Even as a "lone wolf" I spend far more time working with others than I want to. I don't think I could ever work in a team.

Also, there are very few game projects, other than my own, which could really get me excited.

[jaggu]

@Bongpig

Whats wrong with making a crap game? Seriously. What is wrong? It wont sell right? So what if it doesnt sell? What if for me my own idea is paramount and I dont want even 1 iota of anybody else's idea. Yes, I am a big ego pig. So what? Thats the point of being indie and not working for the man. No point in being indie and still crushing your ego and doing what is 'right' as defined by someone else. But do you realise that you are saying ok to 'collective ego' when you say to shut up and do what the group thinks is right? When did that become right? I am wondering since you have sold your games to Garage Games you are now asking us to shut up. Try again.

BTW, I liked Space Tripper and Mutant Storm and my own game is possibly crap to many eyes (PM me if you want to see it) but that doesnt mean I have to aspire to what is a great game as defined by you or anybody. I show the finger by putting out crap. I am the pain in the ass of every big developer out there. Preciesely because I put out crap. I put out one more original idea as a finished game. No matter how crappy it is.

[Hamumu]

I want to make my own ideas, and I don't think it has anything to do with ego. With all due respect, I think BongPig just can't step outside his views and see what other people might think. I can understand wanting to be involved in great games. That's a nice feeling. But for ME, what I want to be involved in are making the ideas I come up with. Not because I think I'm the greatest, not even because they're MINE... but simply because I wouldn't have come up with the idea if I didn't want it to exist... and since nobody else is going to make them for me, I'm gonna do it! I get joy from the act of creation, it's why I'm a game developer and not a programmer, or an artist, or a sound guy. I'm the computer equivalent of a novelist or a painter, taking what my head churns out and making it real, to see what other people think of it. It's probably a pleasure driven by the ego portion of the brain, but am I an egomaniac? Hell no, I think most people make better games than I do. But I make the ones I WANT to. I wish I could do a better job, and I even wish I had a team of people who'd do the work for me, so I could stick to my favorite part - coming up with ideas. That's my joy, inventing ideas. If you get joy from working on someone elses' ideas, that's just great. But I don't see the need to knock people who have a different view. Sounds a little like egotism to me.

[jaggu]

Well said Hamumu. Precisely what I feel. Couldnt have been more eloquent. Thanks.

Now, BongPig, come out and face the firing squad! :)

Peace.

[princec]

Normally I agree with Mr Bong McPig but today I will disagree and say that the only reason I'm in it is to make the things in my head take shape, not anyone else's.

However I can't do it on my own, because I can't draw for shite and have similar musical talents, but fortunately I have found a couple of people who just gel so well with what I want to do and who have a reinforcing positive feedback on the whole situation that it's just worked out peachy.

Still haven't figured out how to make any money yet. Maybe that's the missing 4th person in the team.

Cas :)

[Hamumu]

I wish I could find those people, prince! I'm lazy!

[merovingian]

Normally I agree with Mr Bong McPig but today I will disagree and say that the only reason I'm in it is to make the things in my head take shape, not anyone else's.

However I can't do it on my own, because I can't draw for shite and have similar musical talents, but fortunately I have found a couple of people who just gel so well with what I want to do and who have a reinforcing positive feedback on the whole situation that it's just worked out peachy.

Still haven't figured out how to make any money yet. Maybe that's the missing 4th person in the team.

Cas :)

What I find kind of sad about indie gaming so far, is that the games listed at the top of places like Real Arcade are mostly rehashes of 10-20 year-old titles. Great production values in comparison to their inspirations mind you, and a fair amount of refinement and innovation within the constraints of the genre, but not a great deal of originality.

In fact, it seems the money-making formula (assuming decent self-marketing skills) is:

1. Familiar genre, with a slightly new, but not disruptive spin on it
2. Pretty 32 bit art, nice backgrounds
3. Lots of levels
4. Rehash the same engine with new art and new variants ad nauseum (hello popcap and puzzle lab)

Note I am not cutting on anyone (except maybe the target audience just a little bit), I'm just saying this appears to be part of the secret sauce to one path to profitability.

[Illusion Games]

I understand where BongPig is coming from in regards to working on a team that consists of individuals who inspire you to reach higher and become better at what you do.

The reason I am an Indie is:

I love to program (especially when in the "zone"). Besides, programming is an individual thing for me.

Game design let's me express my creative nature, let's me be the artist that I know is inside me.

I get to play with really cool mind toys called computers. The only limitation is me.

and...mostly, I think it is freedom. I am free to do what I want to do. I recently read an article in Pixelate Magazine (http://www.pixelate.co.za/) titled "You are Free (http://www.pixelate.co.za/issues/15/articles/indie/indie.html)". To quote a couple of sentences from the article.

"You are not bound by rules, by conventions, by invisible forces. You are an artist. Your mind is free to go where it pleases, to create as you see fit. What you perceive to be problems, lack of resources, limitations: these are simply challenges to your creative ability, your ability to find new paths to get to the same ideas."

I have taken this entire article and rewritten it in the first person. I changed a few of the words and emphasized others. I put the rewritten version on my desktop and use it to inspire myself on a regular basis.

[BongPig]

I think people are getting hung up on 50% of what I said only. Look, im not insisting that anybody should work in a team or not. I simply wanted to say that, for me, the most important thing is to make excellent games. Whether on my own, or part of a team or whatever. Thats not important to me in the slightest. I simply want to make good games.
If I felt that the best way for me to do that, is in a particular team, then ill take it. If I honestly believe I could make the best games without help, then thats what ill do do. But most importantly, and Ill say it once more, I only want to make top games.

Obviously, we dont all agree. If anybody actually read my last post, you would have seen I apologised for my Ego remarks. I was a bit harsh.
I assumed we were all in this buisiness to create games people love to play. I underestimated just how important the personal element is to alot of you.

Ill apologise again... Sorry.

Now, im not involved in this thread anymore. Its not getting anywhere.

[jaggu]

>> Ill apologise again... Sorry.

Cool man.

>Obviously, we dont all agree. If anybody actually read my last post, you would >have seen I apologised for my Ego remarks. I was a bit harsh.

I did read it. But blood was beyond boiling point and couldnt let you off the hook so easily ;) And do you read all posts?

> Now, im not involved in this thread anymore. Its not getting anywhere.

You can choose precisely what you want to do. Unfortunately, it seems to me you are telling everyone to consider this thread as going nowhere and so stop discussion.

[princec]

Well, it's not really going anywhere. It's put a few idle thoughts into my head though! I wonder if Alien Flux will reappear rehashed in 20 years time in 3D with teledildonics and a subtle spin on the gameplay! That happened to its predecessor, XAP, which turned up in an applet 10 years later... so it's not beyond the realms of possibility :cool:

Cas :)

[jaggu]

Most people believe what they believe is right. Its hard to change a person's point of view. If a developer becomes successful, it reinforces his belief that his methods are right and when given an opportunity he presents his method as the true method for 'success', 'making great games' etc. For example, most people would agree to what John Carmack has to say about game programming. Now even if a million other programmers do agree to JC, you dont have to. The response that you give to an authority entirely belongs to you and only a majority of favourable respones makes anybody an authority. And even if a majority agrees to an authority, you can deny him that authority by totally rejecting his authority irrespective of whether you are right or wrong but are completely ready to face the consequences. That is the power of an individual and we can put that power to use in our daily work - including - making games.

All revolutions have come about because someone (not a group, committee etc) began by rejecting authority.