Using contractors to develop your games

[zoombapup]

I thought I'd throw this out and see how other people felt about it.

I've got too many games ideas I want to create and not enough time to physically do the heavy lifting myself. Right now I've got a student who I know is capable doing one of my games, plus I've got an artist friend who is making some content for another one.

So I was wondering, has anyone gone the route of actually contracting someone else to develop games for them? By this I mean generally casual style 2d games.

If so, how did the deal work? strict work-for-hire arrangement or something else? Did you give them detailed specs or let them do the work themselves?

I'm just thinking that to get anywhere we need to employ others to do some of the work, however I really dont like the idea of having a full-time staffer just yet because of all the legal issues and whatnot. Much prefer using good quality cheap contractors.

I often wonder why there arent more people from the eastern european companies doing this kind of thing, because I know they can earn a lot more from something like this (pro rata) than most of the work they can get at home.

I'd love to find contractors from other countries, especially art contractors with an asian feel, but even just sub-contractors to develop games for me would be interesting.

What do you guys do? everything yourself? Or buy some work in?

[DrWilloughby]

Anyone talented enough to make your games well is making their own games already. And they should be.

You are about to get hit with a lot of responses saying that ideas aren't worth the neurons they're printed on.

[Chris Evans]

Anyone talented enough to make your games well is making their own games already. And they should be.

You are about to get hit with a lot of responses saying that ideas aren't worth the neurons they're printed on.

But if you have money to pay someone to do it, then your ideas become worth a lot more. :)

Yes, there are talented people who could make their own games but maybe they're stuck doing 9-5 labour or don't want to deal with the risk of selling their own games. These people might be willing to work for you if you give them a decent pay.

[Anthony Flack]

There's a few people here who have contracted people to make games for them. If you have an established business and can afford to bankroll it, it's perfectly viable.

[Davaris]

One thing you'll find is foreign freelancers won't work for peanuts because if they are good, they can get the same rates as western freelancers. The only way around this is to hire a company that is based in China or India that has its own offices and staff (if you can trust them).

On the other hand if you have a proven track record as designer, then I'm sure you could find programmers (artists are a different matter) to help you bring your designs to life for a cut. I know I would consider it. :D

[svero]

I think it's viable. In fact I've long been thinking of expanding Twilight to do more game work by setting up an offshore office in Asia to do just that.

One of the problems with games is that its not a pure programming job. It's often kind of art and feel. You gotta get the brick smashing and bouncing "just so" and so on. So not all tasks are easily contracted out. However you can get a lot done and then go in and tweak some of the effects stuff.

[Jack Norton]

I think is not viable, unless you can communicate with them in person (so you live nearby) or they're professional guys (and in this case they won't be cheap).
In the end after I tried I found out that I was wasting more time to tell them to change obvious thing/bugs (and I mean really obvious thing to ANYONE who ever PLAYED a videogame) than making the games myself :(

[zoombapup]

svero: well, if you setup an office, one advantage would be that you could ALWAYS find work, at least for good quality artists and programmers around here.

I mean, I'd use an outsourcing office in asia in a shot, if it werent for the silly prices these guys charge (knowing how much they pay thier workers and knowing how much the real costs out there are).

I've been out to asia to scout around and my friend did look around at the talent pool out there. It wasnt as immediately obvious as you'd think where you'd get lots of game developers, but I'm sure its do-able.

There is another advantage there, in that you can then address the asian market directly too.

Perhaps next year at ChinaJoy I'll be able to find some good contacts.

[zoombapup]

Andy: yeah, I know that ideas are a dime a dozen. But I'm not just saying "Ive got this great idea, make it for me", I'm saying "I want to you make this game, here is $$$ and a design". Which I believe is a different proposition.

Both myself and Thomas (business partner) have come to the conclusion that we need to get some staff. But I dont think either of us wants to setup the offices, because we both have good day-jobs. So it makes sense for us to basically contract someone to make some of our games, then our roles becomes more of production, which seems to be our role a lot of the time when working with ANYONE anyway.

But I'm talking about actually paying others to do work as contractors, not trying to sell them on my game designs so they'll work for free.

[JPickford]

Leaving aside the financial aspect; A lot of this depends on your confidence in your own management skills.

Personally, having co-run a couple of studios I think it's hard enough to develop an original game with a team in the same room. Even then I found I had to personally code (prototype) some elements of play control\AI.

[vjvj]

On my last project, I was essentially a contractor for Near Death Studios. And I worked for free.

However, I was actually one out of three contract engineers... And I was the only one who finished my work. The other two just kinda disappeared.

I think that if you are going with contractors who you KNOW will finish their tasks, then it is viable. If you are just contracting out college kids or something, well I wouldn't give them any critical projects... :)

[zoombapup]

Fair point John, it definitely isnt easy. But then, I've seen teams within the same company, with the same "management" as others fail. Some teams deliver, other teams dont.

I dont think the failure is a function of management so much as a function of the team and its people. Sure, management can spot the problems and move people around (if there's spare capacity) or get rid of problems (tin tack), but I dont think there is a fundamental weakness using an external team.

But yeah, its risky, in that essentially you start down the publisher route (i.e. it becomes more like a publisher->developer relationship) and inevitably it then becomes adversarial and overbearing.

Maybe I'm better off just trying to pick the most promising students, at least that way its a win-win in that they get to work on commercial products, get paid and I get to keep a good eye on the project and give input.

The only problem with student work, is that it could be a conflict of interest. Hasnt been the case yet, because the students have all been leavers. But if you had a student who worked for you and got bad grades, they could blame you for it. Something to think about I guess.

[zoombapup]

vj: Aye, I've had that happen too. Paying gigs even.. people just fizzle away.

But we have to try! :)

[Nauris]

I think its no different than hiring a person for in-house team. You have to look at such team in detail, look what it has done, find out their little quirks and decide whether you can work around them or have to search for replacement.
I personally plan on making just such shop in Latvia somewhen because I think it could prove to be a working model. Well, that`s quite a long term plan, since such team would have to be assembled quite carefully and have at least one in-house developed product in order to test out those little pesky relationships plus it`d need something to show to clients that`s whole package, not just bunch of concepts, four wireframes of 3D models and list of CVs no one from outside can really check for authenticity.

[dmikesell]

Much prefer using good quality cheap contractors.

That's an oxymoron. You get what you pay for, more or less. If you hire out overseas, I would certify the programmers before paying. Give them a few simple exercise to perform in the technology to be used in the game, and give them a time frame to complete. You also need to maintain a very tight feedback loop to ensure the work is getting done.

[zoombapup]

I dont see why it has to be an oxymoron. The fact is that some countries cost less to develop in than others. The magic of the internet allows them to offer that cost saving to the rest of us.

The problem is of course, that its hard to authenticate the credentials of such companies.

But for example, if svero or Nauris setup such a company, I'd use em in a heartbeat, because I know them either personally or by reputation. I guess this points to a good idea. Going out and meeting your outsourcing teams!

[LilGames]

I wouldn't go this route unless it's a port of an existing game, and/or is very straight-forward, AND you have very detailed specifications/design document detailing every single nuance in absolutely clear terms.

I've dabbled in this, having outsourced a company to PORT an existing game and it worked out more or less, but I had to put them under the thumb to get the last 10% of polish and optimizing done right. They also had some source code to work from, which made things a little hard to screw up.

[electronicStar]

I mean, I'd use an outsourcing office in asia in a shot, if it werent for the silly prices these guys charge (knowing how much they pay thier workers and knowing how much the real costs out there are).

How dare they exploit their workers and not let you exploit them...:rolleyes:

[KNau]

If it's a simple enough project there's always rent-a-coder: www.rentacoder.com

[mustardseed]

It seems to be working out really well for me so far. 1 portal has said they definitely want my game to sell, and I'm talking with some publishers too. :D

But you do have to be VERY careful especially if you are going to look at overseas workers on RentACoder. I've nearly gotten burned SEVERAL times due to the people being flakey, lazy, and just uncaring about your project.

One project, I hired someone to do a custom ecommerce system for me and he simply pirated a commercial ecommerce system, hosted it on his server and said he was done and wanted to be paid. It took a few weeks to prove to RentACoder what happened and I did get my money back.

But on the other hand there are some very talented developers out there who have lots of free time and would love the chance to make some money.

The best advice I can give is find someone who speaks your native language FLUENTLY! This is crucial. Also, be very exact in what you want. Every last detail.


But check out what a talented freelance developer and some money can come up with:

TacoLamp.com (http://www.tacolamp.com)

Prasium is the game (still very much in beta) and the DirectX update in that directory is NEEDED to play.

[zoombapup]

electronicStar: well, yes.. thats the point really. We simply cant afford UK contractors on a working wage here. So we go for contractors in a cheaper part of the world. I dont think its overly exploitative, in that they actually get paid pro-rata for thier part of the world very well.

It just plain costs too much to make games here with the cost of living and doing business as it is (and the lousy exchange rate etc).

On the upside, we tend to get more bang for our pound in other countries because it is pretty high right now.

I'm happy to spread the wealth, so I dont think its a bad thing. Eventually the eastern europeans and asians will reach equity with costs and thats fine.

[dmikesell]

If it's a simple enough project there's always rent-a-coder: www.rentacoder.com

Just checked out that site. This request for a coder cracks me up:


I am looking for one developer or a small group (at most 5 people) who is AMAZINGLY BRILLIANT and FAST. If you cannot build an entire auction site like ebay in 24 hours or build a social networking site in 3 days then I am not interested. This project is a social networking site like tagworld.com - all of their features but with a different focus. I am looking to pay $1000 to $1500 for the project - i have 3 other very similar social networking sites so it could pay up to $5,000 for the package of sites. If you can do this, I expect it done in under a week. If you can do it, I have $30,000 worth of development to do and I am looking for a PERSONAL developer/programmer/designer to handle all of my personal development work. If you do this you will get up to 15 other projects. for now you will be required to build a social networking site to start. I will provide additional details on the site if I like your bid. Do not give me a standard bid - show me why I should trust you as my personal developer. I will require references and work examples.

Social networking site will be a site that has all of the features of tagworld.com and tribe.net and connectu.com combined.

I am not looking for a large firm or an okay firm, you must do AMAZING design and Amazing coding and be able to do just about anything. Former hackers are welcome to apply. If you are fast and brilliant this could be your lucky break. If you are not, do not apply, I am only looking for the BEST person on this whole site.

[Artinum]

That one could be waiting a lot longer than three days for a coder who can do all that in three days.

[lennard]

if you were that good you too could make $1000 for a weeks worth of work.

Bet he got a lot of off-shore offers though.

[Applewood]

If you are fast and brilliant this could be your lucky break
This is the best bit for me. I do consider myself fast and brilliant (sorry about size of head) but what he's offering isn't any lucky break. It's not a bad profit margin for 3 days work I guess. Problem being it'd take a month and that represents piss poor income, professionally speaking.

Rentacoder is on my links list. Not for work leads, but just to cheer me when I'm feeling down! :)

EDIT: Actually, five hundred dollars a day is still pretty grim in the contracting world. Someone this fast will be making a lot more as an employee, let alone a contract dev. Ah well, I guess soon India will be the world power and when they are, they'd better help us with debt relief.....

(oooh, political) :)

[Mike Boeh]

Contacting a programmer is really tough, because it takes a lot of time, and good ones are hard to find.

Graphics, on the other hand, are a little easier- but still difficult. I decided to make a sequel to one of my older titles, Bugatron, but I already had Jim busy with my main project. So I contracted the graphics and 3d models to an outside company.

Whether it's code or art, I think you can't be afraid to tell the contractor that something isn't good enough and needs to be redone. After all, since you're paying money, you might as well get what you want. I asked the contractors may times to re-do the art, and they did.

I think you also have to have reasonable expectations. My goal was to have a game that wasn't an embarrassment to retro64.com- and they produced pleasing visuals, but nothing they're not competitive with top casual games. Here are some screens, I will post a beta version next week :D

http://www.retro64.com/bf2222/bw_title.jpg
http://www.retro64.com/bf2222/bw_ingame.jpg
http://www.retro64.com/bf2222/bw_trophy.jpg

[RohoMech]

I'm a bit amused myself at the requirements, because they don't mention anything about well the site works, just that it needs to work (bugs...).

Also, in terms of design, unless you've done things before, you're assuming that someone in 3 days could 80% guess at user-requirements for something?! That's quite a bit pompus, and that's the best way to design a crappy user interface.

Honestly, I'd be after someone great myself, but kinda along what Retro is saying, I'd want someone who's used to constantly updating / changing their code over someone who does things "once".

So for me, it'd be less about a complete social networking site in three days, and more about the framework / architecture of the site working in three days, with a focus on certain features. That way, I'd be sure the basic foundation is well tested, and expansion is possible in certain areas.

Anyways, good luck though, if there's an awesome coder on this board, hopef you find him/her