Games that are female friendly

[zoombapup]

I just wanted to share something while I remember it.

A while ago I went down to see Howard at Astraware to do an interview about his development methods for some research we were doing for BECTA.

Anyway, during the conversation, he said something very interesting which I just remembered and thought I'd convey here.

We were talking about what he thought was important for a game to work in his target market (PDA and downloadable games). He stressed the need to be female friendly, naturally, but when pressed on how he sees that working, he stopped to think for a while.

He basically told us that he used to be a teacher at a school where he tought mixed classes and that one of the main things he learnt from that, is that girls really don't like criticism in thier games. Even if its very light hearted, its definitely a turn off. Basically, what he suggested was that you should never speak to the player in a negative fashion, but instead should try and give them a bit of a cheer when they do well.

So for instance, where a boy might hear "You need to move faster" as a challenge and actually try and move faster, a girl might hear the same thing and think "ah, I'm already trying hard, do I need this from a game?" and quit.

It was a really interesting insight for me, because it goes to the heart of why some games appeal to female gamers more. Ok, its very much a generalisation and ok it might not be for all female gamers either, but clearly there is something that commonly appeals to a specific sex and this I think has merit to keep in mind.

[TheMysteriousStranger]

Personally I don't think negatives appeal to men or women, especially in casual games. Nobody wants to be told they are failing. The positive reinforcement thing has been around for ages in other fields, so why should gaming be any different?

I know some games try and be funny with their negativity, telling the player he sucks ass and should go cry to mommy, but those are novelties that soon wear thin. It's always much better to make suggestions on how to do something better rather than tell someone where they went wrong.

[zoombapup]

The thing is though, from Howards experience teaching. A male is far more accepting of negative feedback as long as its seen as a challenge. A female is less likely to accept negative feedback in any form.

Its a generalisation, but I trust the guy to know what he's talking about and I sure dont have any evidence to dispute what he says. Plus it intuitively makes sense.

[cliffski]

I've never at any point found games having a go at me to be entertaining. I play games to be entertained, to have fun. If I wanted someone to criticise me and shout at me, I'd join the army.

I think the *trick* to making a female friendly game is not to pack it with large-chested half naked teenage elves or musclebound men with machineguns who swear a lot. Amazingly, I find this quite easy to do.

[JPickford]

Can some one post a real world example of this 'criticism' in a game? I'm a bit puzzled as to what it actually means.

[mahlzeit]

So, does failing to finish a lap in a racing game in time, for example, count as negative feedback? In other words, are you claiming that you cannot present a challenge to women if they can fail at it? (Which may or may not be true, I don't know.) Or am I reading way too much into this?

[cliffski]

no its stuff like "Ha! you suck, better luck next time - LOSER!" which you get in some games like that.

[JPickford]

I can't think of a game that does that.

Actually my game says 'LOSER' if you lose.

[Anthony Flack]

I remember Mighty Rodent did this, and it was annoying.

[zoombapup]

I'm not sure how subtle you have to be to get away with it. I cant remember the exact quote from Howard, but it seemed reasonably innocuous to my male ears. I'm guessing you have to be VERY careful.

saying something like "Loser" would definitely be a no-no. But I think its likely to be even more subtle.

Here's an example, I dont know if its right, but it might illustrate some potentials..

You doing a match 3 game (zzzzz) and you go to put in sounds to give the player feedback. When the user makes a bad match, you put in a sound like the bzz-bzz in family fortunes (for you americans, just think of a negative buzzy sound). What this does, is it constantly acts as a negative, telling the player they arent getting it right.

What you really should have, is a neutral sound that is short but not overly negative.

Ok, bad example.. I'll think of a better one after I've had a quick cuppa.

Perhaps something like DDR's "Your doing great" is better recieved than if you did "You suck, dance better" if they played badly.. But thats too obvious.

[zoombapup]

Cliffski: I agree with you about the half naked elf chick and the sci fi homo-erotic muscleman.

I guess once you decide to actually make your OWN games rather than rehashing others or trying to follow a trend, things get a lot easier. I've found that since we started ignoring trends and markets our ideas have gotten a lot sharper and actually seem to fit in better with the markets we are trying to ignore :)

Its always so easy to take what you see and try and rework it. Rather than dig into it and find the core then make your own game from the core up. <if that makes any sense>

[JPickford]

Okay. Naked War has a win and lose message. The current messages are just temporary

WIN: "YOU ARE SUCCESS!"
LOSE: "LOSER"

How would I phrase these so as not to be discouraging or too negative?

"GOLD MEDAL WINNER!"
"SILVER MEDAL WINNER!"

Actually I don't really have a serious suggestion. Loser is clearly a bit harsh and was meant to be - in a humourous way.

(And Phil, I'm still waiting for you to play your next turn)

[Anthony Flack]

But, will a game that is overly chirpy and positive turn off the male audience?

I know I don't like games telling me I'm doing great all the time. It's very patronising.


WIN: "YOU ARE SUCCESS!"

Sounds like a winner is you.

[JPickford]

I know I don't like games telling me I'm doing great all the time. It's very patronising.


Agreed. Perhaps a game should keep its opinions to itself?

[JPickford]

Sounds like a winner is you.

Yeah it's a misquote from an old Hudsonsoft developed speccy game; "Stop The Express". The final message was something like "Congraturation You Are Success"

[papillon]

awwww, I like half-naked elf chicks. :P No musclebound men with machineguns, though. Only musclebound men with flowing long hair wearing a loincloth and carrying a broadsword.

Games telling you how great you are all the time would get annoying, but lots of games cheer for you when you get a combo on something. look at DDR! (Which plenty of girls play, as far as I know.)

As far as really innocuous things that could annoy an overly sensitive player - tips on dying could be frustrating, especially if, as far as you're concerned, you already DID whatever the tip suggested. Say you're playing some sort of shmup and after you die a "helpful" message like "Keep an eye on your health!" shows up. If someone's feeling oversensitive, then the reaction to that might be "I TRIED! Do you think I'm stupid? Stupid game!"

[electronicStar]

I think what turns women off the most in games is a sort of "masculine" tone that is found often in violent or whored-out games (Eidos' games for example) a sort of machist humour that caters to the teenager category.
It's difficult to give an example, Duke Nukem was probably a good example in the past although it has become nowadays a sort of cultural icon (so some women would probably accept to play it out of curiosity).
What I mean is that it's better to avoid giving the player gratuitous stupid or violent behaviour, or to avoid giving him/her the challenge with a rude tone as if it was military training.

Apart from that, the women I have known didn't have any problem with any topic, they were generaly most intereted with the paranormal in media (fantastic, science-fiction,fantasy).

So the thing is probably to avoid conveying a "frat boy" attitude in the humour and in the way you give your challenges to the players. Except for that I don't intend to make any particular effort toward women.

[mahlzeit]

What you really should have, is a neutral sound that is short but not overly negative.
I think Alan Cooper (user interface guru) recommends no sound on error and a positive, affirmative sound, on success. When nothing happens, people think: "Hey, why does nothing happen, am I doing something wrong?", which is better than slapping them in the face with it. So, positive feedback when actions are good, no feedback when actions are bad. (This is also how you train animals, apparently.)

[KNau]

It reminds me of the Simpsons episode where they segregated the boys from the girls in school. At first Lisa was thrilled to be in a positive "feminine" learning environment until she realized that her math lesson amounted to nothing but fluff:
"How do numbers make you feel"
"What does a plus sign smell like?"

Why is it that in the video game industry we're looking to make every product appeal to everyone?

The film industry can release young male oriented "big tits and guns" movies alongside the latest Reese Witherspoon chick-flick snoozefest - why can't we?

Oh wait, we already do!

There is no problem (and never has been a problem) attracting female gamers and as the medium of video gaming naturally grows we take on more female gamers regardless of how we approach game design.

There are quite a few female gamers who love games like Unreal Tournament yet there was no requirement on the part of developers to lighten the tone or make a more "anatomically realistic" female avatar. Those women would be just as pissed off as the men if the game were ever watered down to appeal to some theoretical "feminine" design concept.

[LilGames]

Gender-inclusive Game Design (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1584502398/sr=8-1/qid=1152634002/ref=sr_1_1/102-1852963-4780110?ie=UTF8)

There's nothing wrong with catering to niches, but it's when you make a game that is general enough to appeal to both sides, that male designers should stop and think about what they can do to appeal to both sexes. We (i'm male) take for granted that everyone would like what we like, but that's just not the case. Especially if we're talking about 40-50 year old women. Are we going to be so arrogant as to believe we know what they would like?

I think the original point was to think a little more carefully about how we deliver negatives. "Time's up!" is not negative like "You lose!". "You almost made it!" is better than "You missed!", etc...
.

[Laser Lou]

Can some one post a real world example of this 'criticism' in a game? I'm a bit puzzled as to what it actually means.
The only game I remember that criticizes the player, and this is an old game, is Patton Vs. Rommel; Patton critiques the player's moves after every turn. I actually enjoyed that feature.

[dmikesell]

Do you people really refer to a woman as a "female" when you talk or just when you write? It sounds so clinical.

[zoombapup]

Jon: I'll get that turn done tommorow, just been stupidly busy this week (buying a house).

The point of the thread, was that I think we should, if we want to appeal to a casual audience, actually try and understand the audiences needs and wants a bit. If my audience for a game is mainly women, then I feel its my duty as a designer to try and understand that audience. It certainly cant hurt.

[tentons]

I think Alan Cooper (user interface guru) recommends no sound on error and a positive, affirmative sound, on success. When nothing happens, people think: "Hey, why does nothing happen, am I doing something wrong?"
The only problem I see with that in a game is that you want to always give instructive feedback about an action so the player knows what resulted from that action. You don't want the player to wonder if there's a bug in the game because there was no apparent reaction from a "bad" move. So IMHO you must have some kind of feedback for all game actions. Just be careful to not take things to an extreme, whether that means insensitive negativity or total lack of feedback.

[Anthony Flack]

if we're talking about 40-50 year old women. Are we going to be so arrogant as to believe we know what they would like?

Nope! Wouldn't have a clue. If they don't like what I like then I can't really help.


"Time's up!" is not negative like "You lose!". "You almost made it!" is better than "You missed!", etc...

"Time's up!" is fine, but "You almost made it!" is patronising and very annoying. Anyway, I thought the casual game rules say that you're doing something wrong if you let the player lose like that... perhaps you should say "Aw, what the heck. Close enough"

[Christian]

Read this and see if it gives you some new insight

http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Game%20Design/WomenWant.html

[Anthony Flack]

Hm, it's more than gender bias, though. Videogames are a medium which is much better suited to simulating projectiles than interpersonal relationships. It's very easy to create a computer model of a rock being thrown. It's difficult, and usually unconvincing and largely missing the point, to construct videogames about jealousy and social manoeuvring. So if that is the difference between what men and women want, it's also largely the difference between what videogames are good at compared with other forms of entertainment.

Shooting and racing and jumping and intercepting targets are just playing to some of the medium's biggest natural strengths, after all. And there's nothing wrong with that - after all, books are great at interpersonal relationships, but absolutely terrible at depicting collisions between moving objects.

And I thought Ms Pac Man was originally the product of unlicenced ROM hackers, whose product turned out to be better than the original and so was acquired. But I guess they added the bow after that.

[JPickford]

I might stick with 'Loser' it makes me laugh.

[lexaloffle]

Read this and see if it gives you some new insight

http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Game%20Design/WomenWant.html

I saw Sheri Graner Ray talk at a small symposium on women and the game industry a few years ago. She didn't talk so much about how to design games that will appeal to women, but rather some common barriers that put women off. The two points that I remember are:

1. Women have a lower tolerance for punishment in games. If the player is sent back to the start of a level after being hit by a single bullet, a female player is more likely to give up. So perhaps the style of feedback message 'You failed! Loser!' is part of a more general principle, as it contributes to the percieved degree of punishment.

2. Women aren't put off by female characters with unrealistic body shapes per se - it is the sexualisation of female characters which is off-putting. An elven warrior with erect nipples, slightly open mouth and red cheeks might not seem so out of place in a modern game. But compare this with a dude running around in a thong with a hard-on.

[Anthony Flack]

Stop giving away details of my top-secret game designs.

[JPickford]

Women have a lower tolerance for punishment in games. If the player is sent back to the start of a level after being hit by a single bullet, a female player is more likely to give up

I'm always a little skeptical about stuff like this. It might technically be true but it might not actually be related to gender at all. Fewer women are avid gamers and they may approach games in a more guarded manner and be more easily put off by negative feedback. In this scenario a non-gaming male would have the exact same response.

I suspect a lot of the 'women like casual games' stuff is just a reflection that casual games are simply friendlier to people who aren't steeped in video game culture and traditions.

[Savant]

I'm always a little skeptical about stuff like this. It might technically be true but it might not actually be related to gender at all.
I think you have a point but I think the original point is valid as well. As the gaming demographic ages, male and female both, there is a lot less tolerance for wasting their time. Sending me back to the start of a long section because I died is grounds for a shelf moment and an uninstall. I just don't have the time anymore. In my youth, I could sit in front of a game and play for hours and hours to beat a single section. Now, I can maybe get a 1/2 hour in a night - and I want to see new content.

I'm not saying that games need to be super easy but rather that game designers need to flex their brains a little and come up with new alternatives to death and the standard "back to the start of the level" solution.

[JPickford]

I totally agree. We've been suffering from the coin-op mentality for over 20 years now.

[Anthony Flack]

Hmm, I think that has been starting to shift away from the "die and repeat" model in the last few years, and we've largely adapted to a "plug away and slowly get through it" system. With unlockables.

The tricky part is working this constant progress into a game without ballooning the content out to unmanageable levels, and without making the game long and dull. Or too short.

Man!

[Bouncer]

I think women like sex and violence too, it just needs to be presented differently than in your average game.

I enjoy and watch a lot of films (Ecspecially such films that contain lot's of violence and/or sex) myself and often literally force my girlfriend to watch all kinds of films (even when I know she will not like them :) here's the conclusion:

Dislikes:: cheap sci-fi, almost all unrealistic monster movies, overly long fighting sequences, weak female characters, pointless female nude scenes (where just tits & ass are shown), simplistic macho male characters.

Likes: Charismatic male characters with muscle, strong female characters, rough sex scenes with dominating male, violence when 'realistic' or stylish and when there are tough women involved, good storylines and overall realism, but also likes surreal movies with a good story.

She did like Kill Bill and SinCity a lot for example, both contain strong female characters, but also a lot of violence.

I don't know what this proves... my girlfriend certainly doesn't represent more than just one type of woman... but there's a huge difference in bad excessive violence (doom and most action and war movies) and good and stylish excessive violence (All Tarantino movies).

Why doesn't any indie do games that contain lot's of great sex and violence. And I mean adult sex, not some geeky manga or softcore crap.

Sex and violence with strong male and female characters and a good storyline. I think this would catch the older male and female gamers. Maybe...

[Christian]

You are all talking about content, what about play? :confused:


Videogames are a medium which is much better suited to simulating projectiles than interpersonal relationships. It's very easy to create a computer model of a rock being thrown. It's difficult, and usually unconvincing and largely missing the point, to construct videogames about jealousy and social manoeuvring.

The Sims is not about simulating physics. Perhaps the problem is that developers are unable to see other ways to use their tools than the obvious use of such tool.

[JPickford]

Well my wife likes that bloke in CSI. So all games should feature CG gore and a lead male character who's slowly going deaf.

[Anthony Flack]

The Sims is not about simulating physics. Perhaps the problem is that developers are unable to see other ways to use their tools than the obvious use of such tool.

No, the Sims illustrates it very well. You can make relationship simulators with computers. But the relationships are, by necessity, extremely simplified and abstracted, and by computer games standards it is still a very complex piece of software to create, even at this primitive level.

But simulating physics is bread and butter to a computer.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have life sims. Kudos to Kudos for daring to try it. But compared to books and films, computer games deal with human relationships very badly, and physics very well. So I'm suggesting that there's more than just historical precedent at work - it's probably quite natural that each medium plays to its strengths most of the time.

[Applewood]

In other words, are you claiming that you cannot present a challenge to women if they can fail at it?I don't see what's wrong with that. It's a bit like my wife who always sets me tasks that I can't succeed at!

[JPickford]

I don't see what's wrong with that. It's a bit like my wife who always sets me tasks that I can't succeed at!

Think of Maggie Thatcher.

[Applewood]

There's only ever one time I try and do that.

(When a vinegar stroke is imminent after 10 minutes worth :eek: )

[JPickford]

Yeah that's what I meant.

[Ste Pickford]

You realise that eventually this will condition you to be turned on whenever you think of Maggie Thatcher.

[KNau]

All of this discussion really only matters if you are planning to adopt a "short-tail" sales strategy via retail or portal and have no direct contact with your buyers.

If on the other hand you are cultivating your own audience on your own site you can always ask them what they want rather than pull random, baseless theories out of the air.

[Applewood]

You realise that eventually this will condition you to be turned on whenever you think of Maggie Thatcher.
LOL!

I somehow doubt it - no-one is that susceptible to anything! :)

[Christian]

Its not that its better to make a relationship simulators, but a game about relationships, about people. You dont need a whole developed simulator system for human behaiviour because no game would need that, they all focus on their own little specific place or category or subcategory of interaction, thats why we have racing games and fps, but not both games in one (even if in fps there are cars, they dont have the level of detail of racing than in the racing games).

A physics simulator isnt much of a game either... The Sims, on the contrary, is one of the most succesfull games of all time because its a game that gets close to human relationships. Even if in the world of the sims gravity exists, phisycs is irrelevant because of the nature of the game.

We cannot compare video-games with films and books, they all have year of development and experience, video-games dont, besides their are on a totally diferent kind of world, the world of interactivity is a very different dimension.

Computers manage numbers like bread and butter, not only phisycs, we just need to convert something to an abstract level so the computer can handle it. Thats why the computers can do lots of stuff besides phisics simulations, they can play chess, they can make movies, they can make music, they can make graphics, they can make interactivity, and more!

[yanuart]

Read this and see if it gives you some new insight
http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Game%20Design/WomenWant.html

I like the reading but there's something bothering me when the author compares game with other media (in this case TV n films).
Games are interactive while films simply aren't. Chick flicks are predictable with 90% happy ending as the climax eventhough the plot is very complicated and heart breaking while in game you might.. well.. win or lose.
Who wants to play a game about social relationship a.k.a romance and ended up losing ? That's nuts!

But the man gotta point, women love that sorta thing. Sims manage to take the concept and put it nicely in the game. No ends, no goals, no punishment plus you got this whole social thing going on :D

Anyway, when it comes to what they want, people sucks at describing what they really want so you might want to take any studies on what women really want with an open mind and a bit sense of humor.

I've read about the new coke catastrophy, you might think what were those idiot coke guys doing ? Apparently what they did was based on what you might think as a very "logical and sensible" thing. They did a drinking test which is basically put a coke and other brand on an unmarked glasses, let someone drink it (they said that they put a nationwide test consisting huge samples) and ask which one they like better. This test was actually started by Pepsi and Pepsi claimed victory in the initial test and that what makes Coke guy started to think about a new formula.
The formula of a new coke actually clinched the test. This is like making a game, do a beta test and get a positive feedbacks all the way, what could go wrong ?yet the new coke failed miserably.

Another research was based on speed dating convention. A group of men and women talked simultaneously with others to find which one they like. The women were given a questionaire on what kind of man they want. When a woman actually clicks with someone, she was asked to describe why she thinks she likes that guy (basically the same questionaire but with a twist).
A certain periode of time later (a week or a month later if the couple still dating) the same questions were asked "Why do you like this guy cause obviously you're still dating".
Guess what ? There's no consistency in all the answers :D

Anyway there are long and endless discussion about those two cases consisting many marketing debates and psychology too,but in this case about what women want, well they can say anything they want but I believe it when I see it

[cliffski]

interesting. Tell me more about how doing a game that concentrates on relationships will be super-successfull. I like those posts.

[cliffski]

Trivia: I read a lot about the pepsi challenge. Its flawed big time because its based on sipping. Most people refer a sip of pepsi to a sip of coke. But a CAN of pepsi is another matter. pepsi (apparently) is more sickly after a full can, and coke isnt. So the pepsi challenge is biased :D

I dont care, cant stand the stuff :D

[Christian]

On the matter of women, can we just use personal experience?.
Lets not forget we are not making movies or tv shows, we are making interactive experiences, we are making people play, lets concentrate on that!.

[LilGames]

Can we post examples of what we see women actually playing? Or should this be a new thread?

My GF (age 35) is not a gamer at all, but she plays "Animal Crossing" on the GameCube on a daily basis. She's also into playing "Brain Age" (DS), "Bookworm" and then I introduced her to "Bonnie's Book Store" (which she likes much more than Bookworm).

My Dad (late 50's) plays mostly BreakOut clones. Name one, I think he's played them all. And he has emailed me asking if I knew of cracks for certain games. (So there you go, casual player who knows about piracy, but that's another topic).

His GF (early 50's), has been addicted to Zuma, and Mystery Case Files. I think I recommended Luxor to them and they said they already had played that.

[yanuart]

Trivia: I read a lot about the pepsi challenge. Its flawed big time because its based on sipping. Most people refer a sip of pepsi to a sip of coke. But a CAN of pepsi is another matter. pepsi (apparently) is more sickly after a full can, and coke isnt. So the pepsi challenge is biased :D
I dont care, cant stand the stuff :D

yup.. sorry about missing that one out. Yes, it's one of the explanations. Another explanation is how Pepsi doesn't taste that good after awhile, let's say you put in a refrigerator or something. But the test was scary for coke cause at that time during the initial test done by Pepsi, the coke sales are dropping and pepsi were breathing on their neck. The sip test offered a logical explanation, don't you think so ?
You might argue this and that but that's because you've read the story. If I /you were there back then, I'd probably say that the test is valid.

[papillon]

Who wants to play a game about social relationship a.k.a romance and ended up losing ? That's nuts!


People who play dating sims! Although generally you play AGAIN after you lose and try to fix your mistakes...

[yanuart]

The dating sims I know (at least that's what I know which is very little) are very male centric in a sense there's a goal to get this or that girl through a series of things/obstacle that we must do.
Adult dating sims are worse, I play it cause I want to see some action :D. Hardly they can be considered as "dating simulator" that simulate the process of dating or social relationship as a game.

[papillon]

Well, the ones where you have to actually make some decisions, figure out some personalities, and experience some emotions work on a "girlish" level even if one isn't interested in the sex scenes. (And there are games in the genre that don't have sex scenes - let me take any chance to plug _Ever 17_, a game I totally love, although it's not REALLY a dating sim but does include some romance - as well as yaoi games which, while not my personal cup of tea, are apparently very popular with women.)

... Having seen the writing that goes into some of those sex scenes, though, I find it hard to imagine the mindset that enjoys THAT part of it. Unless by enjoy you mean 'fall over laughing' which is my reaction to some of that text. :)