Refugees from the Mainstream Games Industry ...

[Chigley]

Hello,

I'm just curious as to how many Indies on here are actually working in, or have escaped from the mainstream, big box games industry?

I'm still buried deep in the trenches, making PS2 and Xbox games, but I'm dreaming of a life where I work from home, in my underwear, making a living making games that I want to make. Dream on ...

Cheers!

[tolik]

I'm working on indie games on Xbox. Does that sound :eek: ?

[Jim Buck]

I'm doing PSP work at Sony.

[kerchen]

I'm about to re-enter the industry after a three year stint as an indie.

[BongPig]

We escaped the mainstream, only to become mainstream again, except independent. Right about now is where we either really kick off, or shrivvel up and disappear down a drain.
Exciting, and very scary times.

emuLynx said it all really! ....' :eek: '

[Nutter]

I work in the mainstream industry also, at Relic, but have no wishes to ever leave the mainstream to pursue a full-time indie career; I love my job too much. Having said that, my plans are to do indie development part-time as it presents a number of challenges that interest me but can't be pursued as part of my real job.

If things go as planned, eventually I may be able to offset the cost of my Starbucks addiction.

[JaffaMused]

I'm also in the industry, but then you already know that 'cos your desk is only 50 feet away from mine :P

[20thCenturyBoy]

Bah, never had a programming job in me life. I work in "business" IT. Boring as f**k. Work on indie stuff in spare time. Too old (36) to get a junior programming job now. Ah well.

[Sunshine]

You're lucky, I sell shotguns at Wal-mart. I only Dream of a cubicle-rat job. LUXUERY!!!

[Ratboy]

I had a 12 year run doing mainstream game art, stretching all the way back to the TurboGrafx CD, ending when I burned out while working on a doomed from the start project at Microsoft.

I like being my own boss now. I make less money, but I have much more free time :)

[James C. Smith]

I am somewhat of a two time refugee from the mainstream. I worked for a main stream company, started an Indie studio, took it main stream, and then switched to downloadable games. Now the downloadable games business is so successful most people don’t consider us “Indie” anymore. Here is the slightly longer version. My partners and I were working for companies in the mainstream games industry when we quit our jobs to start our own thing. Four of us worked out of a kitchen for months until we finished Swarm and self-published it online. Having finished a project on our own, we were able to prove to a publisher that we had what it takes to take on a big contract. We signed a publishing deal shipped the game, signed another deal, shipped another game, and so on. Over 5 years we shipped 3 retail PC titles and made a second downloadable game (Ricochet) on the side. When our downloadable games we generating more profit than the retail contacts, we shifted all our efforts to downloadable games. Not only making more downloadable games of our own, but also making order processing and tracking software, building a network of affiliate web sites, and selling other developer’s games though out network of affiliates.

[Wayward]

I'd been an artist and a game designer in the mainstream industry for 18 years until becoming a fulltime indie six months ago. I worked at Imagitec (who became Runecraft), Ocean (who became Infogrames then Atari), Candle Light Studios, and Zed Two (which became part of Warthog). This isn't my first stint at going alone, but it is my most determined effort. My past two attempts at working for myself were cut short after two or three months when studios managed to coax me back to work for them. I like working for myself but I also enjoyed working in the industry.

[Nutter2000]

Another refugee here.
Was made redundent from Smoking Gun Productions during the massacre of UK games studios a couple of years ago.
After seeing there were few programmer jobs available at the time, and there being at least 20 guys vying for each job thus making it bargain basement time for recruiters, I set up with 2 other guys, one of which I worked with at SG, to produce our own games plus attempt at being self-funding by selling IT Hardware and services.
Sadly the games side haven't developed as quickly as hoped as the lure of game contracting has proved too irrisitable for the moment.

[Sirrus]

Working at a large publisher, but who knows....

[Coyote]

I worked for five-and-a-half years at SingleTrac (then bought by GT, which was in turn bought by Infogrammes, which then bought the name & branding of Atari), and a shorter stint at Acclaim before heading out to change my career plans.

I've been doing the serious indie thing for only a year, and as a purely part-time endeavor.

And I've got one of those classic problems where I'm a pretty good programmer, a passable (I think...) designer, but completely incompetent when it comes to art.

[Fost]

Everyone at Moonpod is Ex-Rage Games Sheffield, and before that we knew each other at Gremlin/Infogrammes.

Lately, with so many studios going under, being an indie is the only way to be sure of job security :)

[kevryan]

Started at Dynamix in '84 and left about a year before they shut down...

[formfarbeminze]

some experiences in the mainstream advertising/media industry. i want to live from my own because i can't stand the culture in big corps. to much talk and chit-chat about issues i consider 'not important'. offcourse i can't say that out loud. people would think i don't take the job serious...

[PoV]

Whee... Some 5 years for me. Started at Sandbox Studios in '99, bought out by Digital Illusions in 2001, left Digital Illusions in June, now Tech Director at Big Blue Bubble (startup run by a former ex co-worker). My old indie works got me my first industry job in '99, so go make some cool games kids. :D. I'm doin' my own stuff on the side, but I still put a lot of time in to our new company. It'd be nice to see it do well too.

[Damon DuBois]

I've worked in the mainstream game industry as an artist for 12 years and I'm hoping that in the next 3 or 4 years I'll be able to go full time as an indie. Chigley already knows this though cause I'm his partner :)

[Jack Norton]

I see quite a lot of people here :)
I wonder though how you could think to reach your previous salaries with indie devs... :eek: don't want to discourage you, but is really hard to get 1500-2000$ /month as indie (to me now seems impossible!).

Also, why everyone flees from there? I was thinking instead of maybe joining the main industry and do shareware on part-time... the bosses are really so bad? :p

[Chaster]

Also, why everyone flees from there? I was thinking instead of maybe joining the main industry and do shareware on part-time... the bosses are really so bad? :p

My last 3 jobs were in "the industry". (the game industry).

Each one was a tour through hell. BAD companies, BAD management, BAD employees, BAD EVERYTHING.

It is unfortunate (because I know that my experience in the game industry was in the minority) but that's how it went.. I am not against working in the game industry at an established company, but it will have to be a REALLY GOOD company before I sign on the dotted line again.

Chaster

[EpicBoy]

Jack

It's entirely based on the company. If you get a job at a company owned by a publisher, get ready for hell - unrealistic deadlines, outdated equipment, etc. Independent companies are best (Epic, id, Valve, etc) but, of course, those are the hardest places to get in.

There are companies that are fairly independent and offer stable jobs with decent people ... you just have to make sure to look at each place carefully before accepting the job. There are lots of messageboards. Ask around for ex-employees and get their honest experiences from them. If you get into a place that sucks, it'll taint your entire outlook on the industry.

[Jim Buck]

Yeah, my biggest concern is about the opportunity cost of not having my current salary while doing indie development.

[Chigley]

For me, indie dev represents a return to the excitement, control and passion of my younger days in the games business.

I've been working in the business, without a break for more than 21 years now, and I've seen the industry wax and wane, and change from small devs to big business, several times.

Game making, I believe, is a creative endeavor, and I miss that. The games business has been pretty good to me, but I'm tired of being a cog in a meat grinder, working on formula games, with no control or ownership of my ideas. I guess I might be a little jaded :)

Making games in my spare time, really saves my sanity. It gives me a much needed creative vent, and will hopefully, one day, afford me the luxury of quitting the mainstream, and living a simpler life.

[BongPig]

Hmmmm. I wouldnt say theres anything wrong with the employers. Typically, everybody always moans '....its the bosses/dev houses/accountants/publishers fault'. I think thats a load of crap, and a cop out.

Games players are crap at teamwork due to huge freeking egos. Hell, ive worked with some crap in my time. Anything the publisher or boss ever did to me pales in comparison to the lazy, moany idiots ive had to work with.

To work inside a quality team, who are willing to shut up and do the work, even if they dont agree, is a dream. There are some qualiy designers out there with some excellent gaming visions, but when it comes time to create, everybody wants to have a say and if they dont like it, they sulk and do nothing for weeks.

Like any other line of work would put up with that rubbish without firing your ass. Imagine a movie director not being able to direct because the ligthing man doesnt like what hes doing and throws a strop. He would be out in 2 seconds flat.

Untill game industry employees learn how to shut up, and do what they are paid to do, the industry will always throw away money and generally be a mess. We are a very strange bunch. We all believe, as individuals, we have what it takes to make the best games. Thats some ego.... but we cant all be right.

Is it any wonder the publishers only want to go for sequels using existing game engines and tech?

[kerchen]

My experience at Maxis/EA was quite pleasant. Sure, the hours were tough, but that's why they pay you a lot of money. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm going back to the industry, and in the course of interviewing, I've visited some great studios--studios I'd be happy to work at because they aren't sweatshops. In fact, I've just accepted an offer from one of them (www.stardock.com) (and I don't even have to move to take the job :cool: ). So, don't believe the hype: there *are* excellent studios out there!

[Dan MacDonald]

Congrats kretchen, Brad Wardell seems like a pretty good guy.

[Sirrus]

How do your indie development goals work with your actual job?

Have you found you need to keep your moonlighting under wraps? Does everyone know? Any issues arisen?

[EpicBoy]

I, unfortunately, exposed my moonlighting to management with the hopes that they would say, "Hey, that's cool". Didn't work out that way...

[Sirrus]

...And they said? :)

[EpicBoy]

They said "no".

[Bluecat]

So where do you go from here?

[PoV]

At my last job they didn't mind the indie stuff they saw, but I never felt comfortable showing it off there (bad experience when I was caught doing art for a game, like it was a crime or something). Our new company (Big Blue Bubble) was established by a set of mobile games done independantly, so it'd be odd for us not embrace indie work. Management is all programmers here (minus the art lead) that have been there and done that, not to mention good friends. So, *plug plug*, if small studio's, Mobile/Handheld/Console games, and moving to Canada interest ya, PM me. :D

[EpicBoy]

So where do you go from here?
Well, it comes down to deciding where my best interests lie - for now, they lie with my day job since Epic Games is quite possibly the best place to work in the gaming industry. Throwing that away for a highly uncertain life as an indie developer seems stupid, so I'm sticking with them.

Other avenues are open to me, just nothing related to games. Applications for example, would be fine... I'm still sorting through my options in the back of my mind.

[Jack Norton]

I don't even have to move to take the job
Hmm what do you mean??? If you can work from home, then I'd like a job like that too ;)

So, *plug plug*, if small studio's, Mobile/Handheld/Console games, and moving to Canada interest ya, PM me.
Well in another moment of my life I'd really like to go to Canada. I always liked that country, even if I saw it only in photos :D I remember that Bioware were asking for NWN scripter some months ago and I was really tempted since I know Aurora Toolset very well...but now my life is a bit messy and I want to try to do indie games until I can :cool:

[serg3d]

@ Pov :
Are you <going to be> stricly J2ME or Symbian too ?

[Sirrus]

Hmm what do you mean??? If you can work from home, then I'd like a job like that too ;)



I believe he means the company is located near where he lives now, so there is no need to relocate to another state/country.

;)

[PoV]

@ Pov :
Are you <going to be> stricly J2ME or Symbian too ?
It hasn't really come up yet, but we already do Brew and Mophun on top of J2ME. I'd hate to be responsible for turning this thread into a recruitment drive, so just PM me and I can answer your questions.

[Damon DuBois]

Hmmmm. I wouldnt say theres anything wrong with the employers. Typically, everybody always moans '....its the bosses/dev houses/accountants/publishers fault'. I think thats a load of crap, and a cop out.


That depends on where you work. Some places are really bad. It's a fact. And some publishers are really bad. Some people who are very hard workers and very good employees will still have very bad experiences in some studios and working with some publishers.

The place I work is quite good as far as the people I work with, but over the last several years we have been abused badly by the publishers we've worked with. The position 3rd party developers finds themselves in these days is not enviable. They have very little power in the developer/publisher relationship, and they live from project to project and if there is any significant gap between projects they find themselves facing mass lay-offs or simply closing down.

If you are own by a publisher it's a bit different I believe but I haven't experienced that yet.


Games players are crap at teamwork due to huge freeking egos.


Most of the people I've worked with are very nice, hard working people. Ther are some ego-maniacs in this business, but the good people far outweigh them in my experience.


There are some qualiy designers out there with some excellent gaming visions, but when it comes time to create, everybody wants to have a say and if they dont like it, they sulk and do nothing for weeks.

Like any other line of work would put up with that rubbish without firing your ass. Imagine a movie director not being able to direct because the ligthing man doesnt like what hes doing and throws a strop. He would be out in 2 seconds flat.


This used to happen alot several years ago but these days people who pull this kind of crap seem to get fired pretty quick. There seems to be alot of competition for positions at studios these days and people who aren't working out seem to get the boot pretty quickly these days.



Untill game industry employees learn how to shut up, and do what they are paid to do, the industry will always throw away money and generally be a mess. We are a very strange bunch. We all believe, as individuals, we have what it takes to make the best games. Thats some ego.... but we cant all be right.


Again it depends on the studio in question. Where I work, most of the people are very serious, very sensible and very hard working.

There have been some really rough times for me over the last several years, but things are finally starting to look up for me and for the company I work at.

Still, the indie scene has a special lure for me. I'm not able to design my own games where I work and that's something I really want to be able to do(and am doing, as an indie). I want to be able to come up with cool game ideas and make them a reality. Is that ego? I don't know... maybe it is maybe it isn't, but what I do know is that it's what I enjoy most and want to eventually be able to do full time. And that's only going to happen as an indie.

[BongPig]

Damon, of course there are exceptions, but generaly I stick by what I said.
The only reason I made my points was to add some balance to the argument that games industry employees are all wonderfull people, and the faults always lay elsewhere. Its something that tends to happen alot on this forum.
Lots and lots of posts talking about various horrible senarios that nearly always involve a nasty boss or even more commonly a nasty publisher.
But in my experiences, employees abuse employers just as much.... and developers abuse publishers (money) much more so that people realise.
... we dont get many posts admitting this. I get tired of it, and end up imposing a horrible rant like my last post! ;)

[EpicBoy]

The only reason I made my points was to add some balance to the argument that games industry employees are all wonderfull people, and the faults always lay elsewhere. Its something that tends to happen alot on this forum.
It's not just this forum - it's anywhere that game developers gather. I just made a post in another thread on this topic, but basically, I agree with you.

As I said in the other thread .. yes, there are incompetent managers, but there are just as many prima donna employees who don't want to take orders from "the man".

[Damon DuBois]

Damon, of course there are exceptions, but generaly I stick by what I said.
The only reason I made my points was to add some balance to the argument that games industry employees are all wonderfull people, and the faults always lay elsewhere. Its something that tends to happen alot on this forum.
Lots and lots of posts talking about various horrible senarios that nearly always involve a nasty boss or even more commonly a nasty publisher.
But in my experiences, employees abuse employers just as much.... and developers abuse publishers (money) much more so that people realise.
... we dont get many posts admitting this. I get tired of it, and end up imposing a horrible rant like my last post! ;)

Hehe.. yeah, I think I know where you're coming from and there certainly is some thruth to everything you said. It's just that after some of the horrors I've been through over the years I felt I needed to pop up and point out that there really are some screwed up things going on in the commercial games industry. But yes, many times much of the blame does lie with the employees. And there are many cases where the people complaining are actually the ones at fault.

Still, I look forward to the day when I can just sit at home and work on my own creations. *goes glassy eyed dreaming about being a fulltime indie*

Ah.. yes :)

[Damon DuBois]

At my last job they didn't mind the indie stuff they saw, but I never felt comfortable showing it off there (bad experience when I was caught doing art for a game, like it was a crime or something).

I told my boss about my indie games and she was fine with it. Infact she wished me luck.

My relationship with my boss is kind of unique though. I've worked for her for 11 years across 2 companies, and she's a friend as well as a boss.

Also, I've been very carefull to never be seen working on my indie stuff at work. For one thing, according to my employment contract they own any thing I do on the company premises.

[Martoon]

I sell shotguns at Wal-mart.

That's gotta be worthy of a sig line. :)

[Stefan Maton]

Well... as most people here I've been working in the main stream game development for many years (6-7 years) in different positions from programmer to lead to project manager, even as freelance programmer for companies such as Blue Byte (bought bei Ubisoft), Funatics, Electronic Arts and Westka Interactive.

Working for EA and Westka was the less stressing time because my team and me had (almost) free hand for our project planning and we were ahead schedule at almost any time of development. At Westka, unfortunately, the second project called "The Y-Project" was way to much for the team that did that game. They were inexperienced and management was bad... so they went down the trash.

For the last 1 1/2 years I've worked on 5 indie games (3 published) and one fully skinnable and customisable screensaver (not published, too). The last game I did (Dr.Electron) is nominated for the newly installed german game developer award which is held this friday. So I'm going to have a party tomorrow...

I'm currently working on a turn based strategie engine and I hope that this will get my foot back into the door.

[BantamCityGames]

Now I'm starting to realize why there are so many new indie games coming out with great production values (as compared to only a couple years ago).