How much does it cost to set up an indie devco?

[AZ101]

Hi

How much does it cost to set up an indie devco orientated towards developing games for the upcoming Wii and XBox Live Arcade?

Also, what does one need in order to convince MS and The Big N that you want to develop for their machine - especially if you don't have a track record?

Finally, is it more profitable to develop for the PC market or will consoles suit the business model of indies better?

Thanks

[PoV]

How much does it cost to set up an indie devco orientated towards developing games for the upcoming Wii and XBox Live Arcade?
$137,219.14

It's gone up 2 cents.

Also, what does one need in order to convince MS and The Big N that you want to develop for their machine - especially if you don't have a track record?
An intriguing playable game, a team, a registered business, financial stability, and office space.

Finally, is it more profitable to develop for the PC market or will consoles suit the business model of indies better?
It's not a fair long term question, 'cause there aren't enough games up there to know. Microsoft/NOA control their respected downloadable portfolio's, so weather you wanted to get on it or not, you need to impress them, and be doing something they don't currently have a significant competing title in development. Word has it "yes, it's profitable", but classic Indie bravado "I'm going to make a game" aint going to cut it.

[Applewood]

In our case:
Two programmers and a good artist for a year: 75K and a *lot* of promises
Equipment/software: 20K
Rent/electric/etc: Should be irrelevant next to that

Chances of getting MS or Sony to listen to you ? Priceless.....

An intriguing playable game, a team, a registered business, financial stability, and office space.

MS are already not returning phone calls and we have a game 95% complete, and by that I mean with all the Guide/XBLA integration already implemented. We could be out on sale in a month if anyone gave a shit. It apparently now takes more than this, though exactly what I'm not sure - no-one will talk to me.

Without even a year passing, I think the only way for new people onto that platform is via an aggregator, which is kind of like a publisher but without any of the benefits! It's not a good place to be right now.

[Applewood]

Finally, is it more profitable to develop for the PC market or will consoles suit the business model of indies better? Downloadable console titles would suit indies very well, but they just aren't interested. Even if you were successful, it's still a big risk - you won't see the money for ages and ages after you do your final back-up and put your pens down. The sad thing is, it's gonna be a shitload of money if you ever did see it.

[vjvj]

Hi
Also, what does one need in order to convince MS and The Big N that you want to develop for their machine - especially if you don't have a track record?

Finally, is it more profitable to develop for the PC market or will consoles suit the business model of indies better?


You don't have a choice; you need a track record. Start with PC and worry about consoles later when you have actually proven that you can finish a game.

In the past there has always been more room for profit in consoles, but the costs for setting up a console shop are outrageous (license fees for one are extremely expensive). With the recent switch to the digital download thing that obviously changes things, and it's hard to tell how it's going to pan out.

[KNau]

Microsoft is investing heavily in the PC as a gaming platform over the coming years, not the least of which is all the 360 hardware being PC compatible.

It's really a "if you build it they will come" scenario. If you can create a hit game in the PC space then the console market will eventually come to you.

[Cubies]

Why not follow in the footsteps of people who developed PC games such as Maple Story or SilkRoad. These video games are free to download, free to play online. It will take a lot of hard work and determination, but the same goes when starting any business up. Eventually you will start generating hype around your video game creating a 'buzz' for it. At this point companies will start seeing potential for profit and start snooping around, granted these companies might not be Microsoft or Nintendo, but these companies will be well known and more likely to show interest in your video game. You might even strike it lucky with a publisher.

I've recently started "playing' SilkRoad and for a downloadable free game it's amazing, the amount of work that's gone into developing that game is unbelievable. I put playing in quotes because the servers at the moment are all full due to the popularity of the game. Which if you're wanting anyone to show any interest in your games is exactly what you're after.

If the developers of such games as SilkRoad wanted to, they could start charging a monthly fee for a slot to the servers and this will bring in a salary. Allowing them to focus more attention of taking the video game further.

(I'm not plugging SilkRoad or claiming it to be the best thing sinse sliced bread, but rather it's an excellent way for demostrating how an indie developer makes it.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they release SilkRoad 2 for the X-Box 360.

[Cubies]

Why not follow in the footsteps of people who developed PC games such as Maple Story or SilkRoad. These video games are free to download, free to play online. It will take a lot of hard work and determination, but the same goes when starting any business up. Eventually you will start generating hype around your video game creating a 'buzz' for it. At this point companies will start seeing potential for profit and start snooping around, granted these companies might not be Microsoft or Nintendo, but these companies will be well known and more likely to show interest in your video game. You might even strike it lucky with a publisher.

I've recently started "playing' SilkRoad and for a downloadable free game it's amazing, the amount of work that's gone into developing that game is unbelievable. I put playing in quotes because the servers at the moment are all full due to the popularity of the game. Which if you're wanting anyone to show any interest in your games is exactly what you're after.

If the developers of such games as SilkRoad wanted to, they could start charging a monthly fee for a slot to the servers and this will bring in a salary. Allowing them to focus more attention of taking the video game further.

(I'm not plugging SilkRoad or claiming it to be the best thing sinse sliced bread, but rather it's an excellent way for demostrating how an indie developer makes it.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they release SilkRoad 2 for the X-Box 360.

I've just relised I haven't answered your question regarding needing a budget.
I'm assuming you've got a computer so...
Money = None
Determination for wanting to make a successful video game = Priceless

[Applewood]

I'm assuming you've got a computer so...
Money = None
Determination for wanting to make a successful video game = Priceless God, how I wish I lived in your world... :(

[Cubies]

GIMP = Free
MS Paint = Free
Processing = Free
DirectX SDK = Free
Notepad = Free
Open Office = Free
Linux = Free

I'm noticing a pattern emerging, I just can't think what it is... :\
Any ideas?

[Applewood]

Yeah. You clearly place zero value on your time, have found a way to exist for free and you're happy working with crap tools.

I'm done here, this has suddenly gotten bizarre.

[Anthony Flack]

You clearly place zero value on your time
My time goes for top dollar. Unfortunately I have to pay for my wages out of my wages.

[Cubies]

I too have to pay my wages out of my wages.

---> Software is only as good as the person using it! <---

[Applewood]

Yeah, sorry mr voice of experience. I must try harder.

Heh, a newbie spouting flamebait. Who said originality was dead! :-D

[KNau]

Yeah, I tried the free tools route but GIMP and Open Office just don't compare and MSPaint was so bad I still feel like Microsoft should pay me for all the pain I suffered in the brief bit of time I wasted trying to use it.

On the other hand, Cubies had a point about free games. Alien Hominid started out as a free Flash game and moved on to consoles so it's not unheard of.

The point for the original poster is that if you have no track record and no financial backing then there is no "front door" way to get into mainstream game development. There may be many ways in through the side door, though.

[PoV]

I can see where you're coming from with The Gimp, but I'm surprised to see someone preferring the fat MSOffice over Open Office. $500 for gramar check doesn't seem worth it to me. ;) That and free PDF exporting is nice, though I sadly wasted money on Acrobat some years ago.

[vjvj]

GIMP = Free
MS Paint = Free
Processing = Free
DirectX SDK = Free
Notepad = Free
Open Office = Free
Linux = Free

I'm noticing a pattern emerging, I just can't think what it is... :\
Any ideas?

ROFL! Hilarious on so many levels.

Dude the purchase price for development software accounts for like 0.000000001% of the budget for a game.

[LilGames]

Nolan Bushnell founded Atari with $250.
;-)

[vjvj]

Nolan Bushnell founded Atari with $250.
;-)

I fail to see how that helps the original poster. Or perhaps you were joking?

There seems to be this recurring pattern on indiegamer where:

- Person (i.e. college kid) asks how to make a <insert whatever genre is popular at the moment, usually an MMORPG> game on <insert popular console here, usually Xbox360> consoles without any experience even finishing a PC game
- Numerous responses appear detailing the complexities and costs of such a venture, usually ending with advice to start with a smaller project first. This is sometimes followed by an entertaining rebuttal where the original poster lashes out at us for "not taking his skills or extreme motivation seriously enough"
- Some "loving parents" types decide to come in and encourage his naive optimism

I have to ask: What is the point to that last step? All we're trying to do is help by arming people with practical knowledge that will hopefully enable them to succeed. What's to be gained from unravelling all of that (not to mention making us look like jerks in the process)? Maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't see the point in letting someone waste a year or more working on something only to be told the exact same thing in the end from MS/Sony/Nintendo (who are less "loving" than any of us, for sure).

[Applewood]

I think it's more a case that if someone needs to ask a question like that, it's totally moot. There's a phrase for that but I can't remember it.

I gave a sensible answer to begin with, too. The answer I should've given was my legal fees to register a business - about 100 quid. And if I'd used notepad and gnu, I still wouldn't have spent anything 18 months later, apparently.

To answer your question (ie this isn't *necessarily aimed at the poster*):

I think most of the old hacks around here (me included) just get bored of the "hey, I'm gonna make a game that's like GTA:San Andreas but better and we'll all split the profits and get rich. Now, do I need to learn C for that ?" type posts.

When obvious newbs then go on to challenge a pro of 18 years standing about his choice of software, just trying to score a point on some leaderboard in his imagination, I kinda glaze over.

[JPickford]

The original poster isn't setting up a devco. He's a fairly well known internet troll. I had to ban him from rllmuk for posting wierd diatribes against a game shop chain complete with essays about why they (the shop) should set up a record label + devco.

[vjvj]

I agree completely with both of you (Apple and JPickford).

Over time I've learned to come to terms with these kinds of posts and curb my instinct to be a cynical, patronizing bastard (even though I sometimes still sound like it, hahaha). These days I just fall back to giving an objective and professional answer in the hopes that they will either learn from it (less likely) or run sobbing back to gamedev.net (more likely :D). It's the best compromise I can come up with in terms of keeping a welcome environment here without destroying what makes this place unique (a place where experienced developers can learn from each other).

It just surprises me when people who really should know better decide to fuel the insanity. Nothing good can come of it :(

[Deis]

The resources are there now to drasticaly cut costs.

You can get a professional grade IDE now for free, Visual Studio Express.

There are professional and powerful and free 3D modelling apps like Wings3D. And not to mention the other low cost options like Milkshape.

OpenOffice works fine for general document and spreadsheet management.

Gimp is workable and free. But for a inexpensive ($80 now) and very powerful image manipulation application I suggest Paint Shop Pro X. PSP is ALOT more powerful than most people think. I grew up using PSP and simply cannot stand using Photoshop.

API, DX and OpenGL are both free to use. And .Net is extremely powerful now.


I am not saying these are what you should go with. What I am saying is that there are VERY good and very cheap alternatives that work just as well if not better than the high cost stuff. It just takes some patience and research to find them. I could probably list many many more options but I would rather point you in the direction.

[vjvj]

ROFL! Hilarious on so many levels.

Dude the purchase price for development software accounts for like 0.000000001% of the budget for a game.

Life is great when I can just quote myself to respond to people!

[tentons]

You know, the OP has a kernel of an interesting question in it.

Minus the the part about dev kits and consoles, and minus the part about convincing MS and Nintendo of anything at all, and minus the chest beating, I'd be interested to know how your experience setting up an office went and what kind of problems you overcame that might be helpful for someone else doing that, too. It'd be fun to hear the story of how you got into the position to make that possible. You can read about this stuff in a more general way on other websites, I guess, but this is a chance to hear about an indie game company specifically.

Anyone in a position to speak about this want to try to make this thread worth the bandwidth used to display it? :)

[Applewood]

Life is great when I can just quote myself to respond to people!
LOL! I was also going to quote that bit, but I see you beat me to it, so I'll quote the above instead! :)

[Applewood]

I'd be interested to know how your experience setting up an office went and what kind of problems you overcame that might be helpful for someone else doing that, too.It was a piece of piss for us. We saved some money from our freelancing days, got an office, then spent a week phoning around the old-boy network to get some contracts in.

The hard bit is breaking out of that cycle and getting the "indie publishers" to listen to you. MS are flooded and Sony have other problems. Not tried Nintendo yet (too busy on a commercial contract atm, which is kinda the point).

I'd recommend it though. I've not earned this little for a long time, and we still ultimately work for other people but it's still the most fun time I've had at work ever - there's plenty of choices to be made even whilst prostituting yourself.

If you want to just do casual games and support a company, I'd think long and hard about it - doesn't seem enough money out there to pay one programmer a working wage, let alone a couple plus all the overheads, but ymmv. Some have made it (PopCap etc) but I wouldn't fancy my chances of emulating them from a standing start tbh

[LilGames]

(What is "ymmv"?)

[Applewood]

your mileage may vary