Online publishers

[Mike Wiering]

I've never really looked into the possibility of submitting games to online publishers before (like BigFishGames, Reflexive, GameHouse, etc) and I can't find very much information on their websites about how they work, only a mail adress for submissions. I noticed several indie games there and I'ld like to know what people's experience is with online publishers like these and whether you sell a lot via them? Which is the best?

[CatPlus]

that's my question too.
I wanna know how to select a agency.

[terin]

Well, I will start with the most recent post:

You don't select an agency, they select you. Power, in this case, is typically not yours to give unless you have the next million dollar game.

There are really only three big non-exclusive online publishers in town:

Bigfishgames, RealArcade, Reflexive Arcade.

The standard seems to be set at 20% to you. I dont have much info on reflexive since they are very picky in types of products, but bigfishgames pays more per game but has a lower audience size. If your game can get on the top 10 of Real Arcade you're golden, otherwise you are making petty cash. Gamehouse is now owned by Realarcade (if I recall correctly)

There are also other non-exclusive publishers:

Garage Games, Alawar, Trymedia

GG is extremely picky with game type but offers a high commission percent and is developer friendly. I've never dealt with Alawar directly as an affiliate or a publisher, other people have told me mixed things about them.
Trymedia is a lot like real arcade. 20%ish and you won't get squat unless your game can make it into the top 10. I believe Trymedia are the ones who got the Download.com deal (and if you dont know what im talking about you need to start watching the market place that is theortically paying your salary). This makes them a viable player in the grand scheme of things... but unless you make it onto the first page you can forget it.

I don't think I missed anyone... maybe I did. I'm sure someone will remind me :-)

General Conclusion: If your game isn't top 10 material, Big Fish Games and Garage Games are the direction to take (Odds are against a title being on both). You can accept every offer that comes your way, odds are you will at least make SOME money from it... but then you start to lose possession of your own title.

[svero]

Each of the online publishers has a different way of doing business and a different way of accepting submissions. The main ones are..

Bigfish, Realarcade, Reflexive Arcade, and Shockwave

Other sites have a lot of traffic as well but are harder to get in tough with.
(yahoo downloadable games section or msn gamezone.)

Generally speaking they are consistent in the following ways
- They have a standard royalty percentage (somewhere in the range 15-40%)

- They keep their customers. You are expected to remove all links back to your site etc... and add their logos.

- They offer non-exclusive publishing. Ie.. you can publish through bigfish and real at the same time. However the publishers do sometimes like to ask for limited exclusives. It's not uncommon for a game to publish exclusively on realarcade for a few months before making it's way to the other sites.

- They offer reasonable contracts and clauses. So far I haven't come across any trickery. They seem pretty honest and up front about what they do and deliver pretty much what their contracts say. I've never had a problem with any of them in that sense.

Generally speaking they're all looking for the next hit game. So yes they are interested in submissions. However they also have a pretty good idea of what their audience likes and are pretty cut-throat about what they'll publish and promote. If arkanoid clones is the money of the day and you have one they'll run with it. They're less willing to take chances on a completely original game unless it's particularly impressive.

I'd say Real is the most difficult to publish through in the sense that they're more picky about what they publish and release less games. Bigfish and reflexive are slightly more open to trying new stuff. Bigfish in particular is more willing to try games and take chances. They're one of the easier companies to deal with in that respect.

All these portals deliver reasonably significant sales. If you have a hit on one of the big portals you can make a lot of money even at the smaller percentages they kick back to developers relative to what you'd make directly off your site per copy. But there's a lot of competition and if your game isn't selling they won't promote it. So it becomes a hit or miss thing. Say your game was making 20k a month through their site and all the other games were making 40k. Even though your game was selling ok it would quickly dissapear into obscurity. The top relative performers get the advertising and sales. So with the portals you either make... a bit of extra cash for a few months after release and then very little, or a whole lot of money. It's a bit more like the retail world in that sense.

With regards to selecting a publisher. I'd say try them all. Generally speaking they all publish non-exclusively (or exclusive for short periods) so there's not hard rule that you have to publish strictly through one or the other.

[Chris Evans]

Also, it's a good idea to approach them when you have a complete game or a near complete game. Unless you have a proven track record, they're not going to offer deals based off concept or alpha demos.

Additionally, it helps to have movie clips and a lot of screen shots of your game to show them. When they evaluate your game, they usually don't play past the opening levels. So if you have a lot of cool stuff in your game, but they don't appear until later levels, then I highly recommend taking screen shots or preferably a video clip of those levels. This way when they evaluating, they get a broader picture of your game.

Finally, I've noticed file size seems to be a very big issue with many of these online publishers. It depends on the type of game, but try to get the file size of your game as small as possible.

[James C. Smith]

FYI: Refexive is not as picky as were were in the past. Also, we offer much better than 20%.

[Jack Norton]

Refexive is not as picky as were were in the past. Also, we offer much better than 20%.
That's very good to know :)
From the site I don't see a way to contact you for game submission though, except of course using a PM here in forums :cool:

[svero]

I think one shouldn't consider the portals as publishers because really they aren't. They're more analogous to a store that sells goods and has a limited shelf space and has to decide what to stock. A publisher is a company that works with a game developer to handle the marketing and distribution to many different places whether it be a portal or a retail store etc...

[alfie]

I think one shouldn't consider the portals as publishers because really they aren't. They're more analogous to a store that sells goods and has a limited shelf space and has to decide what to stock. A publisher is a company that works with a game developer to handle the marketing and distribution to many different places whether it be a portal or a retail store etc...

Good point... more like Digital Retailers than anything else.

[cliffski]

"- They keep their customers. You are expected to remove all links back to your site etc... and add their logos.
"

Thats the bit that really bugs me. Sainsburys dont demand all the manufacturers of food take their addresses of their foodstuffs ;)
I'm published with 1 game through RealGames, but generally, these big sites only deal in puzzle games and very casual arcade games. If you make the kind of games I do, you are best of selling it yourself direct and taking 90% of the money.
I'm not sure I'll even go through the motions of picking an online publisher for my next game.

[svero]

Thats the bit that really bugs me. Sainsburys dont demand all the manufacturers of food take their addresses of their foodstuffs ;)


Yeah but with the case of portals you have to understand that customers are the only thing they have to offer. Access to customers. If they give that away they have nothing. Maybe a little could be said for their beta testing and sales systems but essentially the main thing they provide is access to people. Its basically for that audience that you pay 60-80%. That may sound bad, but it may not be such a bad deal if you consider how much of the pooled 60-80% they need to then in turn spend on advertising etc... to maintain the customer volume they have.

[tolik]

Ok, I see the missing link in this thread.


There's a publisher called Oberon Media:
http://www.oberon-media.com

Some of you, who have big eyes, can see that Oberon Media is supplying games to ICQ, MSN and dozens of other huge sites.

I would highly recommend to use their services because of the broadest reach to the audience compared to all other content providers (may be except Trymedia which is a different story). If you are interested about "exclusive"/"non exclusive" - yes, you can do non-exclusive publishing through Oberon.

If you have any games for submission, feel free to pass them to me (check my signature, we are representing Oberon to make a broader reach to the developers).

There's also a person on this forum who's processing Xbox Live Arcade submissions, you can PM me/mail for more details.


My mail is lynx at ctxm dot com.

[Andy]

Ok, I see the missing link in this thread.
There's a publisher called Oberon Media:
http://www.oberon-media.com


Yeah, you don't need big eyes to recognize them everywhere.
But they don't answer at all to any our invitations to "dance together". :(

[Jack Norton]

But they don't answer at all to any our invitations to "dance together".
Yes I asked them some time ago but got no reply too. I hate when this happens. I prefer a simple email with "not interested". stop.

Nowadays I have not hurry since I can sell my games myself good enough... ;) and can't find a publisher interested in my games, like cliffski says...Bah who cares? Their loss ;)

[tolik]

You can contact me directly via the provided email.

Andy - we'll be able to discuss things more closely and, if you wish, in russian.

Everyone - feel free to contact me. The situation, such as with Andy, will be resolved with our assistance - we are designated to broaden the reach.

[alfie]

Ok, I see the missing link in this thread.


There's a publisher called Oberon Media:
http://www.oberon-media.com

Some of you, who have big eyes, can see that Oberon Media is supplying games to ICQ, MSN and dozens of other huge sites.


I have just looked at the Developers section at Oberon Media, and the first sentence is "Have a good idea for a casual game but not sure how to get started?". I dont know about anyone else but this does not sound like a serious and professional publisher to me.

[super_e]

I agree, BigFish and Alawar are 2 of the most easiest to talk to. I haven't yet talked to Reflexive though. If you have a logic-puzzle game (like I do), its going to be hard to convince the other sites to even sell your game. :(

emuLynx: I dropped you an email. ;)

[Andy]

You can contact me directly via the provided email.

Andy - we'll be able to discuss things more closely and, if you wish, in russian.


Stop Anatoly!!!
Guys, anybody who wants to talk to Anatoly in Russian you are welcome to ask me for translation for small percentage... :D :p

[ggambett]

I have just looked at the Developers section at Oberon Media, and the first sentence is "Have a good idea for a casual game but not sure how to get started?". I dont know about anyone else but this does not sound like a serious and professional publisher to me.
You are utterly, completely, extremely wrong.

[z3lda]

Yeah, you don't need big eyes to recognize them everywhere.
But they don't answer at all to any our invitations to "dance together". :(

It took them about 3months to get back to me when I submitted. Too bad they didn't feel my game was worthy :).

[Andy]

It took them about 3months to get back to me :).

3 months?! Wow! Lucky one... :D
I'm afraid my first attempt to get in touch with them is dated by January-February... ;)

Anyway, I can agree with Jack Norton here - if company simply doesn't answer to you it's hard to believe they are able to deliver good service to you or their customers...

Looks like they are only the online store ((C) - svero) who didn't answered our emails at all.

[terin]

I don't really like the tone this thread is taking...

The last few posts have nothing to do with the question asked.

So get it back on track and stop being rude to people :-P

[BlueWaldo]

Does anyone have any guess as to how many sales from my website I will lose if I am accepted by all of these publishers?

[Andy]

Really Joseph?

What such a way wrong have you found in my last post in connection to the theme of thread? - Are we still discussing online publishers and who is good or bad in the area?

PS These are indie game developers forums Joseph - not the forums to sing our songs to a favor of the friendship between developers and publishers. Isn't it? If you disagree let we leave this on justice of the owners and moderators of the forum. Correct?

[Andy]

Does anyone have any guess as to how many sales from my website I will lose if I am accepted by all of these publishers?

Our sales for INVASION WAVES were growing up together (meaning not "because" but just "together") with our good results at BigFish. Unfortunatelly we still got no a chance to work with another ones. So, can't answer your question specifically. But I suppose if your product would be accepted by ALL these publishers - you may think about your own website as a hoddy on the nearest year (good time to develop and rise it up to the appropriate condition)....

REM:...Jack Norton!-you are welcome, go ahead... :D

[tolik]

Just some personal blah-blah:

Don't forget that some online publishers are publishing CASUAL games, and some are publishing INDIE games. If you want a precise distinction - open some major content distribution channel like zone.com and see the games in the categories. Try to put your game in the proper category, compare it to other games. That should give you some thoughts.

Don't try to blame (it's great that no people on forum are doing it) the publisher for not selecting your game. Try to think what market are you targeting BEFORE creating the game. Do you create games because it's a form of art, or do you create it to reach the casual masses and get a sack?

Some of the genres nowadays are very niche...

[Andy]

This is exactly why I said that their game would bring not less than million to them if they'll find the way to publish it with ALL of that publishers... :D

PS Anatoly - ICQ...

Thanks,

[tolik]

FYI: Refexive is not as picky as were were in the past. Also, we offer much better than 20%.

Just to clarify some information for the public - are you talking about 20% gross or net?

[Scorpio]

Does anyone have any guess as to how many sales from my website I will lose if I am accepted by all of these publishers?We usually see a small increase in sales whenever we launch a new game on one of the major portals. This is due to "customer bleed". Some people try the game from a major portal and then go directly to the developer's web site--maybe looking for a newer version, more info, tips, more trial time, or maybe because they like supporting the developers directly. They download and later buy the HipSoft version of the game and we don't complain. :)
-Scorpio

[codymc12]

You can contact me directly via the provided email.

Andy - we'll be able to discuss things more closely and, if you wish, in russian.

Everyone - feel free to contact me. The situation, such as with Andy, will be resolved with our assistance - we are designated to broaden the reach.

Email sent.

Regarding Reflexive - how do we submit a game?

[Andrew Postnikov]

Hi guys!
I'm representing Alawar Entertainment, Inc-Head of Publishing Department.

Just give me 3 month and exclusive rights for representing your games ONLY to publishers which you choose and I'm sure all of them will take a look at your game and also they can decide to distribute your project.

If you're interesting in just give me a short private note.

Thank you.

P.S.
Guys from Riga!! Say Hello to Nikita! :-)

[Isaev]

My friend,

I can say Hello to myself :))
Welcome to the Great Community!

[tolik]

Just give me 3 month and exclusive rights for representing your games ONLY to publishers which you choose and I'm sure all of them will take a look at your game and also they can decide to distribute your project.

That's one of the most funny things I've heard here over the past few days. :D

[Andrew Postnikov]

That's one of the most funny things I've heard here over the past few days. :D

And the most funniest thing in my words that this is the true :D

[James C. Smith]

Just to clarify some information for the public - are you talking about 20% gross or net?

Well, some people may call in net but it is really a lot closer to gross when affiliates and distribution partners get involved. Developers usually get about 40%. Reflexive pays royalties to developers based on the gross sale price minus Cost Of Goods (COG). COGs include things like credit card transaction processing (about 3%) and download bandwidth. COGs are usually less than $2 per sale. Something like a fee or rev share paid to a distribution partner is never a COG. If a game sells for $20, developer would be getting paid 40% of about $18.50 which would be $7.40. It doesn’t matter if the game was sold on Reflexive.com, or if we paid money to an affiliate to distribute the game. Either way the developer still gets $7.40. The money for the affiliate comes out of Reflexive’s 60%. The developer is always getting 40% of a number very close to the gross sale price.

We do not consider our selves to be a “publisher”. We do not resell your game to other portals who give us a percentage. We sell your game in OUR own distribution network where we pay the affiliate web sites a percentage. And of course we sell a lot of games on our very own web site. A developer will never be getting a percentage of a percentage from us. You always get a percentage of the whole.

If you would like your game considered for inclusion in Reflexive Arcade you should send an e-mail to submitgame@reflexive.net

[Duke]

Hi guys!
I'm representing Alawar Entertainment, Inc-Head of Publishing Department.

Just give me 3 month and exclusive rights for representing your games ONLY to publishers which you choose and I'm sure all of them will take a look at your game and also they can decide to distribute your project.

I contacted Alawar about publishing my game (DDD Pool) a month ago, and I still have no reply from them.
I'm not offended in any way if they don't like my game or are not interested in publishing it for some other reason.
But I do expect a reply, and I have a right to:
On their site they say something like
"... What can you expect from us: a prompt yes or no ..."
Now, I admit I'm not an expert in english language, but my understanding of the word "prompt" is something in the (reasonably) near future.

Even if they are overwhelmed with submissions, they could still drop me a quick note about this and ask me to wait for a while.

Another big publisher I contacted claimed I will have an answer in 20 business days, and responded in just 5 days.

I think even if my game totally sucked, I still deserve a "no" answer, since THEY invited people to submit games and concepts for publishing.

Duke
Paprikari (www.paprikari.com)

[tolik]

We do not consider our selves to be a “publisher”. We do not resell your game to other portals who give us a percentage. We sell your game in OUR own distribution network where we pay the affiliate web sites a percentage. And of course we sell a lot of games on our very own web site. A developer will never be getting a percentage of a percentage from us. You always get a percentage of the whole.


Thanks for that info, James! Now everyone can see Reflexive is D2B (which is very good but limited to the size of the network, enough for most of the indie games. huge plus here is that a lot of smaller games can find their niche here and still be ONLINE and "published" in some way (word quoted because James has explained the attitude to the publishing here)).
Other channels work like D2B2B (hehe, funky developer 2 business 2 business, as developer->content provider->channel).

As in case of Alawar, I see it's D2B2B2B, which sounds and works weird because of the extra chain.

[tolik]

And the most funniest thing in my words that this is the true :D

And this is the most uninformative quote, which is also True.

I would like to understand what does TRUE means in your explanation.
I guess it's true, that you want exclusive rights from somebody in order to talk to publisher regarding their game?

[Andy]

Wow!
Thread is growing up to approriate level. Look guys few more days and we'll be considering publsihers instead of they are considering our products now. :D

[gamefiesta]

We have a new game channel launching by month end called GameFiesta.com and are always looking for product. We will be launching with about 75-90 products that are on most of the major networks (Realarcade.com, Yahoo Games, BigfishGames) but also have 65 million customers from our other sites that we will be tryng to leverage and are from the gaming/sweeps space. They also fit the core casual demographic of over 30 females.

Not saying all your games will be accepted but are trying to reach out to large traffic sites as partners and developers as artisits and help you make some money and get recognition for your product.

Regarding rates, we are also only offering 25-30% on Net sales (Net should be what the publisher receives minus processing fees).

Look forward to hearing from anyone that is interested.

George Donovan
VP Biz Dev
www.traffixinc.com
506-855-2991 x111

[Chaster]

I contacted Alawar about publishing my game (DDD Pool) a month ago, and I still have no reply from them.
I'm not offended in any way if they don't like my game or are not interested in publishing it for some other reason.
But I do expect a reply, and I have a right to:
On their site they say something like
"... What can you expect from us: a prompt yes or no ..."
Now, I admit I'm not an expert in english language, but my understanding of the word "prompt" is something in the (reasonably) near future.

Even if they are overwhelmed with submissions, they could still drop me a quick note about this and ask me to wait for a while.

Another big publisher I contacted claimed I will have an answer in 20 business days, and responded in just 5 days.

I think even if my game totally sucked, I still deserve a "no" answer, since THEY invited people to submit games and concepts for publishing.

Duke
Paprikari (www.paprikari.com)


Duke, perhaps your e-mail to Alawar was lost in the ether...?

I just submitted our latest game (it's not even on our website yet) to Alawar for consideration, and they politely (if a bit curtly) declined. I received an answer within 24 hours. So, in MY experience, when they say "you'll receive a yes/no answer quickly" - well, they lived up to that....

Of course, it would have been nicer if they had accepted the submission, but I am just trying to be fair and report my experience with them... <shrug>

Chaster

[Andrew Postnikov]

...skip....
As in case of Alawar, I see it's D2B2B2B, which sounds and works weird because of the extra chain.

Dear emuLynx,
It's seems you misunderstand something. :)
I'll try to explain below:
Alawar.com have more than 600 affiliate partners. So if developer want we can distribute the game only by using our own resourses and our own affiliate partners (like Reflexive doing). D2B
This is one flow of profit.

Also we can represent the game to the partners like Real Arcade, Trymedia, Reflexive, Oberon-Media e.t.c. D2B2B2B
This is the second flow of the profit. And it calling-Publishing.

This two flow absolutely different.

BTW, as I understand you representing Oberon-media here. So, it's funny to hear that the D2B2B2B model which Oberon also using are weird from their representatives. And more funny to see that the man who representing such great company don't understand the difference between non publisher and publisher. As you sad-"This is the funniest thing which I ever heard" :D

[Andrew Postnikov]

A few words about Alawar:
1. We work not only with the games which already done. We can start work with the good idea.
2. We help our developers with which we are working by our advises,information and money(i.e. we can pay for music or create the graphics by using our own resources).
3. Our current revenue share 50/50. It means that the developer will always get 50% from all kind of profits which will get Alawar.
4. We are looking not only worldwide exclusive also we represent the non exclusive and restricted exclusive relationships.(The revenue share will be the same 50/50 with all kind of relationships)
5. We always show the name of the developers on the game page(I mean our own resources)
6. We already start to pay advances to the developers if we are interesting in the future cooperation. It doesn't mean that we just buy the developers or their IP rights.
7. We don't forget the games which don't sell, we constantly works for new versions by using our own experience and the developers thoughts.
8. We do the same promotional actions with all newest games which we publishing.
9. We pay for bandwidth.(I mean our own resources)
10. We are open for discuss any terms and conditions which developer want.
11. Our monthly reports to the developers contain all possible information which we have.

I think that's enough for now. If someone want to know more, just ak me.
Thank you.

[Andrew Postnikov]

I contacted Alawar about publishing my game (DDD Pool) a month ago, and I still have no reply from them.
....skip...

Dear Duke,

I don't want to promise you that we will find your message and replay to you immediately. If you are still interesting in, just try to email one more time.
Thank you.

[Duke]

Dear Duke,

I don't want to promise you that we will find your message and replay to you immediately. If you are still interesting in, just try to email one more time.
Thank you.

OK, let's say the mail got lost.
I'll try again.

[DFG]

Mike, I would be interested in trying out Charlie II on my site on an affiliate basis.

[Mike Wiering]

Thanks for all the information everyone!

DFG: I was actually planning to start allowing affiliates via BMTMicro some time ago, but I still need to figure out exactly how it works (I'm kind of new to the whole affiliate system) and what kind of changes I'll have to make to my website/game.

[DFG]

Mike, I would recommend Mike Boeh (retro64.com) to you for setting up BMT Micro for affiliates. We have worked together in the past on that and he is a great guy and contributer alot to this board and the old one at Dexterity.

However, I am not sure it is the most effective ordering system compared to RegNow (although I understand the fees are much better for you guys). Might be worth asking others around here what their tests have shown to convert better to sales.