Top tip for artists finding work with indies.

[Fost]

Don't email a company looking for work and tell them you can do a much better job than the artist who worked on their last game :)



Ahh, the hours of laughter receiving such an email brought me.

[Savant]

Maybe they can. Did you ask them to prove it?

[svero]

Well even if they can it's a stupid thing to do. They're insulting someone who has a working relationship with the peopel they hope to get in with. Maybe they're friends etc... Its just not a good approach...

[Fost]

They're insulting someone who has a working relationship with the peopel they hope to get in with.
Or, maybe in fact, the person who did that art, is the person who they've emailed (which is what happened here :) )

Hey, maybe they're good, but if I was in the market for an artist, #1 criteria would be their ability to work with other people...

[svero]

Yeah.. that'd be even worse! :-)

[Klaim]

Is there a tip list here about artist and others recruting?

[Savant]

I'd have to see the original email to be sure, but it sounds like all the guy said was that he could do a better job than the previous artist. Doesn't sound all that insulting to me unless you have a fragile ego.

[Fost]

I'd have to see the original email to be sure, but it sounds like all the guy said was that he could do a better job than the previous artist. Doesn't sound all that insulting to me unless you have a fragile ego.
Hey, I'll be the first to criticise my own work but I'm not likely to employ someone with a big head, who is dumb enough to contact an indie games company made of two people (one artist and one programmer) stating:
'I think your last game had potential but it was let down by poor graphics.' (quote).
Now, in this case, the portfolio was quite laughable, but even if it had been good it's not about ego, it's about stupidity. This is a stupid thing to say to a potential employer, especially if the person who did the original graphics is likely to be a friend of, or even be, a founding member of that company :)
I suspect his heart was in the right place; he'd tried to write a sales pitch for himself, but not really thought it through.

Anyway, I thought it was funny.

[dmikesell]

Another tip: Don't tell someone you have the time when you really don't. I've worked with two artists in the past 3-4 years. Both promised the world, but delivered nothing, this after countless "coming next week, I promise" assurances.

I appreciate that someone might have other contracts that trump mine, just don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining.

[KNau]

Oh, good, you got my e-mail. So do I have the job? :)

I almost feel bad for the guy. When I first decided I wanted to get in the video games industry I bought all the books on finding a job. Trust me, there is more bad avice out there for aspiring artists and programmers than good. Like "Send them a critique of their latest game, describing how you would have made it better".

[Christian]

KNau, and why is that a bad advice????. If you actually know what you are talking about and you actually could have made it better AND the person recieving the critique has an adult mind, then im sure that he will accept the critiques and consider you for the position.
But of course, if your critiques are based only on personal taste, then its a bad idea.

[svero]

It's a dumb way to approach it because you dont actually know how it's going to be received or how the person on the receiving end will react. People don't always make choices based on pure logic anyway. What if the artist is the guys wife. Your wife or my fantastic much better art? You could send a letter saying you do similar styled work and think you could be an asset or something.. you don't have to go out of your way to point out that the work is better. Let your portfolio do the talking. it surprises me that the people here who are arguing that the person receiving it should behave 100% rationally based on the work itself and nothing else, are being completely irrational about the best way to approach seeking a position. There's simply nothing to be gained by risking offending someone.

[papillon]

I've seen that attitude and problem with web design more than games. In many cases, if a game's graphics really are poor, the developer knows it and wishes they could have afforded better.

If a website sucks, though, it's quite likely that it was either DONE by the person you're emailing, who's proud of it and going to get annoyed at being told how terrible it is, or they ALREADY paid someone to do it for them and are furious at the suggestion they wasted their money. :)

Still, there's a polite and an impolite way to offer yourself. I'll be the first to admit that a lot of my self-done graphics are lacking and I want better. But you're going to get a lot further with me by saying "I think I have a lot to offer you" than "Your current graphics are terrible, I can do better". Even if I agree, the attitude gets you off on the wrong foot.

[Christian]

"Your current graphics are terrible, I can do better".

I agree that this kind of critique will not do you any good, but:

If you actually know what you are talking about and you actually could have made it better AND the person recieving the critique has an adult mind, then im sure that he will accept the critiques and consider you for the position.

If you know what you are talking about you wont say it in a disrespectfull way, you will say it i such a way that the person reading it will understand that you know much more than him and that you are actually trying to help him succeed in doing a better job next time. But of course, if the person making the art is his wife, then you wouldnt get the job anyway.

[Applewood]

I think too much is made of trying to hide your ego under a shroud of professionalism. I get a lot of CV's through my door and I only read the ones attached to introductory mails I like the look of, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Any outright rudeness/bragging and I usually don't get as far as his mail sig.

If John Carmack or someone came through my door and said "I think you're so much worse a programmer than I am, I'll write your next game for free", I'd tell him to blow me, even if I thought he was right and that he meant the offer.

Ego is an important part of your own character (isn't it the definition?) so you need to deal with people who aren't gonna rub against it.

[Fost]

Wow! I didn't think this would get such diverse reaction :)
If you actually know what you are talking about and you actually could have made it better AND the person recieving the critique has an adult mind, then im sure that he will accept the critiques and consider you for the position.
You would be correct if you're assuming the reason this is bad, is because the person looking at the cv is going to be offended, that's not the problem (although it could be - which is reason enough for job seekers not to do it I'd say.) The real problem is employers want people who are passionate about working with them and working on their products. This is just badly written and makes me wonder why the hell that person wants to work for me if their opinion of the products is so low.

Pointing out that you are the kind of person who always finds ways to improve a project is something you can say on a CV or job application, but that should not be confused with pointing out you think the products that company makes aren't any good.

Flattery will get you everywhere - employers look for people who say they have great products and want to work on them. they know those kinds of people will fit in well with others and do great work because they are interested in those projects.

[Christian]

I agree with you fost, well said.
Its just that i thought that the other people in the thread thought that criticizing implied a bad behaviour, or bad manners, or something bad in general, as you say:

Pointing out that you are the kind of person who always finds ways to improve a project is something you can say on a CV or job application, but that should not be confused with pointing out you think the products that company makes aren't any good.

[nikolas]

I would say that for me, so far at least, the fact that I have a decent website with a lot of samples of my work in, that I'm approachable and able to discuss things with anyone, about prices and everything.


Of course I've approached companies, that don't have composers listed in their staff, so there are big chances.

I don't brag and I am being honest in what I can or can't do. I have said no to companies, simply because I didn't have the equipment. It happens. I have told companies that what they want will take time, most importanly, and yes will take and some money more than usual. I don't know what else...

And I've never ever said something bad about anyone, unless they are aware of it, and it is in a form of kind critisism always. Why bad mouthing somebody? Especially when you don't know him and don't know his relationship with your future employers...

[dmikesell]

If John Carmack or someone came through my door and said "I think you're so much worse a programmer than I am, I'll write your next game for free", I'd tell him to blow me, even if I thought he was right and that he meant the offer.

Ego is an important part of your own character (isn't it the definition?) so you need to deal with people who aren't gonna rub against it.

In this scenario, Carmack is being honest, but unfortunately your ego lets him walk out the door. Are you in business to make friends or games?

[Applewood]

If someone is arrogant like that, chances are they're not going to fit in - I've worked with plenty of these people and I know whereof I speak. It's nothing to do with wanting "yes" men around (which is even worse), but you do need to keep a happy ship with no troublemakers.

I can actually take criticism pretty well, just not from assholes. People who start criticising before proving their own worth fit into that category for me. OMMV.

If someone is dumb enough to say "all your staff are shit but I'm better", I don't want that kinda person working for me even if he really is gods gift. It shows a lack of tact that will soon ensure that he's the *only* person working for me.

[dmikesell]

You're building a strawman argument here. Nobody is going to say that, but some of your better programmers may tend to be on the arrogant side. Playing nice doesn't always work, either. Been in too many environments where people are afraid to criticize/reprimand for fear they will hurt feelings or be the "bad guy". As a result, lousy work is not only done, it's tolerated and even encouraged (through lack of intervention).

Hey, if Carmack wants to do my game for free, he can call me every name in the book. I'll even fetch his coffee :-)

[princec]

I wouldn't hire Carmack.

Cas :)

[Savant]

I wouldn't hire Carmack.
"Wouldn't" and "couldn't" are different words.

[princec]

Pedantry won't earn you any friends.

OK: If I were in a position to hire a games programmer, and Carmack popped his head in the the door, I wouldn't hire him. He's a clever chap but has a lackadaisical coding style and l33t genius attitude that would not endear him to most of the people he'd have to work with.

This whole thread is pretty amazing to be honest. I had thought by age, hm, say about 21 or so most people understand some of the "subtle" aspects of "getting on with other people". Mind you there's always Big Brother to prove me wrong, although it is turning out quite fascinating this year because the denizens of the House are such utter freaks, retards and sociopaths.

Cas :)

[dmikesell]

Everyone "getting on" can be counterproductive, too. Buddies don't like to tell each other that their work needs improvement, or that they aren't cutting the mustard. I've seen it for fifteen years at several different companies.

[Applewood]

Been in too many environments where people are afraid to criticize/reprimand for fear they will hurt feelings or be the "bad guy".
I hear what you're saying, but I don't really get it. If peers can't critique each others work, then that's a different problem. What I'm against is the more bullish attitude of "I'm better than you" which is how this thread started.
The best guys know they're the best guys - speaking it out loud is just gonna piss off the "improvers". The best guys usually know that too - those that don't, I don't want em.

[Applewood]

denizens of the House are such utter freaks, retards and sociopaths.


Heh, I must be getting old. All that swearing really is starting to do my head in. Lisa'll be out tomorrow, shortly followed by Nikki though, so it should be a lot better soon :)

[John Rush]

KNau, and why is that a bad advice????. If you actually know what you are talking about and you actually could have made it better AND the person recieving the critique has an adult mind, then im sure that he will accept the critiques and consider you for the position.

I'm admittedly not an expert, but I fail to see how anybody outside of the company can know what they are talking about. You would need to know what the budget was for various parts of the project, what kind of internal conflicts arose through the development cycle, the original design document, external funding requirements, limitations with internal tools, etc.
These factors have a large impact on what is ultimately released.
It would illustrate to me a supreme lack of experience for an artist (or any other individual) to propose that they can do [fill in the blank] better when they have no idea what the constraints of the job are. You simply can't compare yourself to an unknown. State what you can do and back it up, but don't try to assess the failures of my project when you haven't been there.

[Christian]

These factors have a large impact on what is ultimately released.

If you know your craft you should also know the problems that may arise, and since they have an impact on the result, and you can see the result, you can know the kind of problems they may have had and have them in mind when doing the critique.

Im a graphic design freelance, and what i do is point out why a particular design decition is not good for the business of my client and give sugestions and ideas to make it better and the benefits of them, its a way of saying "i know my work and i can give you a boost to your business". Some people get it and feel good about that they have a profesional that knows more than them working for them, others just take the critique as an insult and just go their own way. Its like if someone doesnt want to take his medicine because he says "it tastes so bad, how come it is good for me?!?".
(each case is special though, each client has special problems, still i belive that you can point out what things you can do better because you are talking about what you can do to help him).

[Applewood]

If you told me that at an interview, I'd certainly listen. There's a big difference between what you described and some newb mailing me out of the blue and telling me my art team are shite, though.

I don't think anyone here is arguing against constructive critcism, it's more about tact in an initial contact, or the lack thereof.

(PS. We don't actually have an art team but we are trying - there's a permie job posting in the for hire section)