Casual gamers ready for RPGs? Looks like it..

[Sirrus]

So Aveyond is #7 on BigFish today - first of all, congrats...

Secondly, this must indicate *something* - Aveyond is a pretty traditional style RPG...so the question is, are casual gamers finally getting more evolved?

[Sakura Games]

Yes, Amanda will be very happy with the huge amount of money coming to her way...! I think she's ready to do a sequel.

Anyway is not the first signal: even tower defense was quite UNUSUAL (to say the minimum) casual game. Heck, even Savant featured on his site so must be not a bad game! :rolleyes:

[Ricardo C]

Maybe it's not a sign of casual gamers beginning to embrace other genres, but a sign of portals expanding their scope, and thus attracting more hardcore gamers. Either way, it's a good thing.

[lakibuk]

Congratulations to the developer! Nice to see that the portal audience reacts positively to a non match-3 game.

[Emmanuel]

Actually Big Fish has launched non-typically-casual titles on a regular basis and for a long time, handling the publishing/distribution of Master of Defense for instance. They even tried Garden War! Aveyond is extremely engrossing and hit the market at the right time.

Best regards,
Emmanuel

[cliffski]

It's the first step towards people rpeparing for the huge sales bonanza of Kudos :D
But yes, this sounds like welcome news.

[whisperstorm]

I still play Fate even after I bought it a year ago. And I forked over $35 for a lifetime membership at DragonFable.com - the sequel to Adventure Quest - because its the only thing I can play at off times. A casual rpg would be awesome ...

[amaranth]

Wow, this is so cool! I didn't even know :p

[Davaris]

I'm not surprised. :) Its targeted at the right audience and is very easy to pick up and play. Congrats Amaranth. :)

[Bmc]

speaking on casual rpgs, does anyone know if PopQuest is still in Pop Cap's pipeline or?

[whisperstorm]

Imagine if we got Amaranth and Papillon to collaborate on a game - they'd be unstoppable :)

[Sirrus]

speaking on casual rpgs, does anyone know if PopQuest is still in Pop Cap's pipeline or?

They announced it several years ago, I assume its been on the backburner for some time. Haven't heard any recent news on it.

Aveyond has risen to 6 now...nice.

[Anthony Flack]

It makes sense to me. Imagine your standard match 3 game, only with a more expanded story mode. The only thing left is to take away all that pesky colour matching. Even better!

[Dan MacDonald]

It doesn't make any sense to me. Occasionally niche games resonate with the casual market (see Platypus). But I hardly think it is any indication of a shift in the tastes of casual customers.

RealArcade put considerable effort into expanding their games to appeal to more then just the casual segment and sell new types of games to casual players. Every attempt failed miserably.

Still, if we ever did enter and environment where games like Universal Boxing Manager and Democracy were suddenly popular on portals I think it would be bad for independant developers.

[Ricardo C]

Why's that?

[Jack Norton]

I just want to comment that between Aveyond and UBM or Demoracy there's an abyss - not talking about "which game is better" etc, but by the fact that Aveyond is clearly more accessible and attractive even for women (manga art, nice story, easy to play).

Another very important aspect, I can at least speak for my game - I think female customers for UBM are more or less 1% of total :D

[Dan MacDonald]

Why's that?

Because portals are bad for sustaining independance.

[Coyote]

Don't forget the fact that Spiderweb's RPGs have been selling for a while on RealArcade... that's one of the few portals he's been selling through.

[Dan MacDonald]

Yes, but Jeff V. has stated publically that the protals dont generate much revenue for him. I would chalk that up as one of RA's attempts to expand the market.

[Ricardo C]

Because portals are bad for sustaining independance.

You don't have to sell through them if you don't want to. But you can still benefit from them growing the market.

[Dan MacDonald]

The markets are there and indies like cliffski and jack are selling to them, if by some bizzare chain of events the portals were able to attract and retain the members of those markest then it will certianly eat into indies direct sales and in turn make them dependant on portals to sell.

Fortunatly the chances of that happening are very slim, the portals ability to retain the eyeballs of their customers is largely dependant on the fact that the population of their target market is either too dumb or too lazy to look elsewhere for games.

[svero]

I have to agree with Dan. There's no real shift in the market here. Aveyond is a cool game and I wish them the best of luck, but I don't think they'll really see significant portal sales for it in terms of real dollars in their account. Portals would have to be willing to lose money for a while to build up a real good audience for other genres. It's a bit of a catch 22 though. You dont see a lot of quality rpgs being made because there's not that much of a market therefor there arent many quality rpgs to attract customers therefor the market doesnt build and so on. A company with good money could foster a new market by paying up front for quality games of a genre and really targeting and building a new market. I think casual games built up as the primary portal download market, in part, because it was very general and appealed to a wide spectrum audience. Id like to see genres developed and better niche portals crop up, but I don't see it happening right now. Also there's probably an exagerrated idea of the kind of money top 10 games make on the portals. Maybe not.. i guess it depends on your dev costs what would exite you.

[Ricardo C]

The markets are there and indies like cliffski and jack are selling to them, if by some bizzare chain of events the portals were able to attract and retain the members of those markest then it will certianly eat into indies direct sales and in turn make them dependant on portals to sell.

Fortunatly the chances of that happening are very slim, the portals ability to retain the eyeballs of their customers is largely dependant on the fact that the population of their target market is either too dumb or too lazy to look elsewhere for games.

if this were the retail industry, I'd agree. But the "infinite" nature of web space means they can't crowd us out like they could offline. We can always find ways to put our products in front of their users, and they can't suffocate our "stores" the way Walmart can break an independent shop in their target area. So if portals can grow the market, it's good for all of us, even those not in business with them. More available eyeballs means more potential customers.

[Savant]

You don't have to sell through them if you don't want to. But you can still benefit from them growing the market.
By this logic, it should be possible to rake in phat lewt selling a match-3 from your own site.

[Ricardo C]

Theoretically, it is possible. Not my fault no one will try it.

[Pyabo]

if by some bizzare chain of events the portals were able to attract and retain the members of those markest then it will certianly eat into indies direct sales and in turn make them dependant on portals to sell.

I have to disagree... there's a very simple mathematical equation here. If you can generate 4x the unit sales on a portal then you're making the same amount of money selling direct, assuming a 25% royalty rate. So if Real starts to attract large numbers of RPG fans... I certainly don't see that hurting the indie RPG makers. In fact, monetizing that segment might encourage more RPG makers to finish the half-baked projects that show promise. Being "dependant" on a portal is a moot point if you're making a living.

[Pyabo]

Id like to see genres developed and better niche portals crop up

HMMMmmmmmm... :)

[cliffski]

"If you can generate 4x the unit sales on a portal then you're making the same amount of money selling direct, assuming a 25% royalty rate"

I remember when the royalty was 50%. want to place bets when it will be 12%?
Also, 4 times the sales is 4 times the tech support, for the same money. Dont imagine that the portals handle anything but very basic tech support.

But the portal argument has been done to death anyway :D

[Dan MacDonald]

if this were the retail industry, I'd agree. But the "infinite" nature of web space means they can't crowd us out like they could offline.

Know whats funny, when RealArcade was just getting started, you know who they looked at as their competition? Dexterity. It didn't take them long to blow past dexterity any almost every other indie casual / puzzle developer / publisher out there. You tell me with a straight face that RealArcade did not "crowd out" Dexterity. That RealArcade had no impact on Dexterity's business?

Marketing dollars can absolutely crowd you out, in any distribution channel digital or physical.

That's why the first question VC's ask tech startups is "What will you do if Microsoft decides to move into your market?"

[Ricardo C]

You tell me with a straight face that RealArcade did not "crowd out" Dexterity. That RealArcade had no impact on Dexterity's business?

Did Steve make less money after RA entered the game, but while he was still an active developer? Was he on an upward sales trend that crapped out due to RA's presence?

[Dan MacDonald]

I have to disagree... there's a very simple mathematical equation here. If you can generate 4x the unit sales on a portal then you're making the same amount of money selling direct, assuming a 25% royalty rate. So if Real starts to attract large numbers of RPG fans... I certainly don't see that hurting the indie RPG makers. In fact, monetizing that segment might encourage more RPG makers to finish the half-baked projects that show promise. Being "dependant" on a portal is a moot point if you're making a living.

Interesting math, so if Real quadruples the size of the downloadable RPG market and gives you a 25% cut then you break even with what you had before?

I'd rather slowly double the number of direct sales from my own site.

There's a secondary point here though, the casual portals ability to act as gatekeepers to distribution is largely dependant that their audience isn't capable or willing to look elsewhere for games. This is not true of the "console style RPG" crowd or the "Turn based Strategy" crowd. Even if they did target these audiences they would have a difficult time monetizing them as these audiences are savvy enough to find these games directly. The value add of the portals is they enable an audience of people to buy games who normally would not be able to access them.

[amaranth]

Maybe it's not a sign of casual gamers beginning to embrace other genres, but a sign of portals expanding their scope, and thus attracting more hardcore gamers. Either way, it's a good thing.

The only problem with this is that Aveyond isn't really a hard-core game. :)

Like a lot of casual games, it's very easy to learn and very easy for the player to start and stop. It has a nice little journal feature that the player can use to get back into the game if they've been away for sometime. I have a lot of players who open up the game just so they can wander around and enjoy the charming atmosphere.

I have to agree with Dan. There's no real shift in the market here.

I whole-heartedly agree with you! But maybe not for the same reasons. In my opinion, there is a certain style of game that is popular on casual game portals. Take a look at the best sellers. You'll notice a lot of them look friendly and cute. You'll also notice that the cute games are usually on top of each catagory be it puzzle, action, arcade, etc. Perhaps the market is more interested in the style, not the type?

Interesting math, so if Real quadruples the size of the downloadable RPG market and gives you a 25% cut then you break even with what you had before?

Dan, one important thing to consider is that you don't have to just go through portals. You can sell your games in so many different ways. Portals are just another outlet. Some players like to go exclusively through them, some prefer download sites. Why not hit both? Then you're making a 200% profit. ;)


I hope this helps!

[DFG]

Remember, the stereotyped casual gamer female 35 soccer mom represents 60-65% of the audience depending on the portal. Tradewinds and company have already shown there is an appetite beyond puzzle.

You can either compete with the 10 billion other match 3s or you can try to own up a nice segment of the audience nobody is paying attention to.

This is just the old niche vs mainstream argument playing out.

[DFG]

Also these types of games on the portals are really helpful for expanding the interest to other genres.

Your stereotype casual gamer probably does not have a long history with games. Therefore, they have not been exposed to other genres and don't even know if they like RPGs or shooters yet.

You hear all the time about the female gamer who was introduced to World of Warcraft and loved it, surprising herself and all her friends.

We need to keep pushing the boundaries to expose the casual gamer to new genres and expand the market.

[adamw]

amaranth - this is good new indeed! I trust you're getting a bit of the money from the arrangement.

Say, didn't this very group of forum folks help out with the web site design? Screen shots and the like? I wonder if that has helped things out a bit.

[Christian]

Hi, im a graphic designer, i have been taught that with whatever image you use, even if you dont intend to, you communicate things. What this "cute" games are communicating to their audience is exactly the same thing that what they want, they just want simple, inmediate fun. With this cute graphics you are aiming directly to the emotions of people making them feel instant reward for watching them, you are communicating that the game is of a "fun-light-hearted" nature, actually, its FUN communicated visually. Its the kind of fun they want. Thats the important thing, communicating the things they want. Dont think that one style rules them all, its just a communication problem, once they understand they might like the game, then the game design will tell if they actually enjoy playing it, if it is what they where especting, then great, if the game is not what they espected, then you are a liar and they will hate you forever.

[Anthony Flack]

This is kind of what I was getting at - my suspicion is that this doesn't represent any kind of shift in the "casual audience". Casual games have been putting more and more emphasis on their story mode, maps and other progress indicators that help egg the player on. A simple, accessible RPG game is really not so different than your later-day match 3 game - just with the redundant colour-matching element removed.

As long as the game is simple, accessible and doesn't punish the player too much, the casual player should enjoy clicking through a friendly RPG story just as much as a friendly colour-matching story.

[Sakura Games]

Dan, one important thing to consider is that you don't have to just go through portals. You can sell your games in so many different ways. Portals are just another outlet. Some people like to go exclusively through them, some prefer download sites. Why not hit both? Then you're making a 200% profit. ;)

This is true if you think that each thing adds, which isn't true at all.
Let's say 1000 people want a Zelda like RPG - if they search google they're more likely to find the portal than you site since they do much more marketing than you - then maybe you get those 1000 sales in 1 month at 25% royalty.
If you hadn't the game on portal, maybe even only 500 of those 1000 people would have found your game, but at 90% (considering 10% plimus commission) royalty.

Do the math... ;)

[arcadetown]

No surpise here, Aveyond's been a top 10 - 20 here for months now generating very respectible sales. Congrats Amanda! Going to have to put in a word for Cute Knight as there's another indie that really deserves it.

[amaranth]

I'm amazed that Cute Knight isn't more widespread. It's really adorable!

[papillon]

(Well, I'm rather bad at making deals, especially since I'm *incredibly* distracted by other events at the moment. Someone here who's been trying to reach me for a month can point out I'm barely logging in and not reading my PMs... :) I do have some other things in the pipeline, but I have never talked to Big Fish. This is thoroughly my own fault.)

[lakibuk]

4th place now on BigFish.

[Tovy]

We tried to offer to BDG our latest game Styrateg (http://styrateg.rakeingrass.com), it is a turn-based strategy with rpg modified for casual marked (ehm ;), but they rejected it, they said, that it is very nice, but not for their players :(

[Jack Norton]

As I said, Aveyond is a RPG but miles away from traditional european RPG, is a japanese RPG, you see them on consoles etc - like a simplified RPG, with cute characters, more focus on story and so on.


p.s. as you know,I put styrateg on my site, sold one already ;)

[zoombapup]

On the portal sales issue. Someone made a good point.

Many players who go to realarcade or big fish go thier almost exclusively, rather than searching. They go to bigfish and download anything new on thier site.

So it makes sense to go on portals, as long as you do actively go out there and sell direct too (if thats your bag baby).

[zoombapup]

Hahaha.. that demo movie has got to be the best game maker demo ever!!

RPG Maker XP (http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/tkool/RPG_XP/eng/index.html)

Hell, I'd buy it just because of the movie..

Nice that someone has made a nice product with it and it hasnt hampered selling it on the portals.

[Anthony Flack]

Wow! RPG MAKER! XB! I'm so psyched now. I gotta crank up some bitchin' sounds, develop a speech impediment, and head on over to download.com!

[Hamumu]

I'm making a semisortacasual action-RPG, Loonyland II. I suppose if I were truly trying to hit the casual demographic, I'd do it quite differently, but it's definitely simpler and more casual than a standard RPG, but far more complex than the original Loonyland. No mouse control, though... suck on that, casualies! And my wife can play it rather well, and enjoys it, which is a good sign compared to what I usually create.

It's basically what I want to play (as usual) - Diablo 2, but with direct control instead of mouse. And with a bunch of stuff stolen from various MMOs as well. It's gonna be good!

http://hamumu.com/sneakpeek.php for shots and progress.

[Emmanuel]

Amanda clearly understands and enjoys making that kind of game and it just shows through. I play for five minutes and an hour later I'm still playing. (someone at BFG said the same about tenton's fashion cents..)

It's been discussed before but keyboard control in itself is not a big deal with the casual audience. Turtle Odyssey, Bud redhead, wonderland secret worlds all use the keyboard but are very consistent in its usage and it works well. (of course all three games rock -- once players want to like your game, they will probably not pay attention to that kind of thing).

Best regards,
Emmanuel

[amaranth]

Hey, want to know something interesting? It sort of fits into the whole 'can a rpg be casual, etc'.

I did some number crunching last night, and so far, the more casual the site, the better the game does. The game is on a couple of 'serious' game portals and it doesn't resonate with those hack'n'slash audiences. However, the casual gamers seem to really like it!

[Slayerizer]

Hey, want to know something interesting? It sort of fits into the whole 'can a rpg be casual, etc'.

I did some number crunching last night, and so far, the more casual the site, the better the game does. The game is on a couple of 'serious' game portals and it doesn't resonate with those hack'n'slash audiences. However, the casual gamers seem to really like it!

BTW, I saw an article about Aveyond in the june issue of Joystick (french mag).
:eek:

[Pyabo]

So Amanda... are you going to give us a sales update? :)

[arcadetown]

I did some number crunching last night, and so far, the more casual the site, the better the game does.
Too bad there's not an OctagenerianGames.com, hmm...

Makes sense to me as honestly I tried to play it but Aveyond was far to slow for me. Thus the casual audience indicator was on.

I've been so surprised with the performance of this and Cute Knight. Really shows me users can accept a women geared rpg. Oddly the hack-n-slash rpgs haven't been doing too hot here, another surprise.

[tentons]

I play for five minutes and an hour later I'm still playing. (someone at BFG said the same about tenton's fashion cents..)
Just to go OT a bit and mention it's Fashion Fable. :) Fashion Cents is a game by someone else.

[amaranth]

So Amanda... are you going to give us a sales update? :)
er, I'm afraid to check. :eek:

[Jack Norton]

Afraid? lol... I think many people here would like to be afraid like that!

[Cartman]

Amanda told me that she was expecting her first truck load of money any day now. She's not sure if there will be enough room for it all. :)

[arcadetown]

And this means all drinks are on Amanda at the next convention.

[amaranth]

Hey, I used to be a bartender in another life, so I could mix em for ya! Of course, I wouldn't trust my skills reguarding drinks or food. I've almost burnt down two kitchens. Of course, this wouldn't be a problem with the drinks unless we lit them on fire. Hey, that sounds like a great idea! Fire drinks! :D

[Grey Alien]

It's great that an RPG can do so well. I love them, but they must be a lot of work to program!

[Cyruz]

It's not the programming that's hard...It's creating the events of the game itself that are hard.

...unless you make sure to work on really good tools for it and make a very robust scripting system. ^_^

A good scripting system can call a script in any sub if a script for it is present. Some people just don't think of some of the places to put a scripting call...like the end of a battle in an RPG...or the middle of a battle, like if you die but don't want it to Game Over on the player. ;)

[amaranth]

Yay! Aveyond is the #3 most popular download game on Yahoo this week! :o

[Ricardo C]

Wow, that's huge! Congratulations! :)

[jwc]

congrats! but, I'm sorry, Mr Blaub probably has already finished his masterpiece by now:
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showpost.php?p=86063&postcount=38

...he should have really good motivation, since is so easy to get on #3 of yahoo games! :D

[Cartman]

Yay! Aveyond is the #3 most popular download game on Yahoo this week!

I am soooo jealous! Congrats Amanda, you deserve it. :)

[amaranth]

When Crumb comes out, we'll all be in trouble. :)

[Escapee]

If Aveyond is in Bigfishgames top 10 , i dont see why Cute knight isnt in there. hmm ... anyway

Congrats amaranth :D

[stiill]

Congrats again! It looks like you really nailed the game, the art, the marketing-- awesome.

[whisperstorm]

Cant wait to see your casual pet rpg... or whatever it is :)

[Musenik]

there's nothing to see here, unless there's a way to delete miss-posts.

[amaranth]

If Aveyond is in Bigfishgames top 10 , i dont see why Cute knight isnt in there. hmm ... anyway

Congrats amaranth :D

Agreed. Cute Knight sells incredibly well on my site and I'm just an affiliate. It's been doing great on Arcade Town since it's release several months ago. It's in the top 15, I think...

[rioka]

Cute Knight is doing well on Arcade Town last I looked. I think it's in the Top 10.

Anyways, congrats Amaranth! This bodes well for more "casual" RPGs. ^_^

[Pyabo]

Still waiting on that updated sales report, aren't we? ;)

[amaranth]

I wanted to resurrect this topic because papillion's Cute Knight, has "finally" been listed at Big Fish Games and now holds the #4 spot! Go Cute Knight!

[soniCron]

Cute Knight has also made it on to Yahoo! Games (http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=cuteknight), and seems to be getting some really positive feedback! Congrats! :)

[lakibuk]

Ha, clever ladies not following a trend but creating one.

[cyrus_zuo]

Cute Knight was released in October of 2005. Considering the process of how it went from relatively obscure indie release to where it is now (with many details along the way of how contacts were made) I think would make for an interesting discussion piece.

[papillon]

*blush* the story from my end is slightly embarassing and involves things like panic, giving up, and having an awful lot of wonderful people go to bat for me because I couldn't do it myself. :o

If you want an article I'll tell you what _I_ know, but a lot of things happened that I don't know about! :)

[cyrus_zuo]

*blush* the story from my end is slightly embarassing and involves things like panic, giving up, and having an awful lot of wonderful people go to bat for me because I couldn't do it myself. :o

If you want an article I'll tell you what _I_ know, but a lot of things happened that I don't know about! :)

Understood :)
And I think there is a lot of take away in that. I'm a big believer in being involved (and I have a sort of vague definition in regards to that...but I know what it means in regards to my own actions). Even if some contacts/actions don't seem immediately to make a big impact or make a lot of sense, often one thing leads to another.

Said another way, sometimes the only way to get from point A to point B is through points C, Q and P, so don't skip out on C just because it doesn't appear to be helpful at all in getting you to point B. You never know when C might lead you on an unexpected journey to B so be careful to not discount the value of 'C'.

The longer I've been in the industry the happier I've been that I've not intentionally shrugged off 'C' or told 'C' to 'bugger off.' (though it's something I've heard myself a few times ;) I've been increasingly amazed at how often I come to reach a goal of mine by a route that I couldn't possibly have conceived. Often through people and plans that seemed perhaps a poor investment of my time at the time, but turned out to be the totally unexpected pathway to my goals.

[whisperstorm]

You deserve all the sales/exposure you can get. Hopefully it'll get you to work on Cute Knight 2: Still Cute after all these Orcs...

I still think an amaranth/papillon collab project would be very cool :)

[Coyote]

I was thrilled to hear that news. I'm fond of both games, and I'm an RPG buff. I think the ladies here have been pioneering some very exciting ground whether they think they are or not :)

Awesome job!

[arcadetown]

Happy to have gone to bat for you. Been telling anyone that would listen (Papillion included). Honestly when I first saw Cute Knight I was inclined to pass but my guys convinced me and glad to admit I was 100% wrong! Our users surprise us more often than I'd like. I certainly hope these games show developers that there's more ways to make good sales than just doing the same old games.

[Bad Sector]

So, is now everyone gonna make cute RPG games?

[Coyote]

Define "Cute."

What excites me is that RPGs are being introduced to (and prospering in) an audience that ordinarily wouldn't dream of playing a game of this style. I don't expect casual gamers who enjoyed Aveyond to suddenly start flocking to Oblivion or anything like that in the near future. But I do think it helps broaden the market.

I think the success of the titles may help broaden the horizons of portals, causing them to be a little more flexible and experimental in the future.

And I think they broaden the genre a bit. They innovate a bit in subject matter and gameplay. They prove that you can be successful marketing an RPG(ish) game to a female audience. Their success may open up the minds of other developers to possibilities and places to take the genre. As a *player* as well as a developer, I'm excited to see what's next.

And I hope both Papillon and Amanda will be encouraged to do similar games in the future.

So I'm cheering their success.

[cliffski]

I'm not sure you can extrapolate from these two games that there is now a market for casual RPGs. It sounds to me like these games succeeded because they are just flipping good games. I bought Cute Knight (havent tried aveyond yet, its installer sits in my downloads folder...waiting...), because I just loved the demo. I'm not a big RPG player at all. I also bought Oblivion, after being bombarded with hype about it, and enjoyed that.
I bought lego star wars, after it was a great demo, and I also bought and loved Battlefield 2, and Company of Heroes.

I just like *good* games, not neccesarily belonging to genre X or genre Z. You can tell when someones really passionate about their game, and I think that shows through in all the games I mentioned. I don't think the market for casual RPGs is bigger or smaller post aveyond and cute knight. I think it just goes to show that good games sell, even obscure politics sims will sell :D

[whisperstorm]

Would be awesome to have a casual version of Princess Maker -- maybe Diner Dash 6 - the next generation....

[Coyote]

Cliffski:

Maybe so, maybe not. I don't think a casual gamer will go out necessarily looking for "more RPGs" (by that genre title). But they might want to find another game "Like Aveyond" or "Like Cute Knight." Of which Aveyond 2 and Cute Knight 2 would be obvious choices. But I think there might be some room for some other NON-CLONE entries in there to prosper where there might not be before.

After all, I think in some ways the success of Aveyond on some portals might have been what paved the way for Cute Knight to go there (and achieve what seems to be early success). Maybe? Or am I totally in my own fantasy world right now? I admit a somewhat reddish tint to my sunglasses.

[soniCron]

Would be awesome to have a casual version of Princess Maker... That's kinda what Cute Knight is. ;)

[papillon]

I focused a bit more on the RPG aspects than Princess Maker did, though, and threw out the child aspect entirely. (Child labor, marrying your adoptive father - It just wasn't the image I wanted! :) ) So there's still plenty of room for a proper *raising* sim.

I do see occasional posts of people asking for more things in that category - and when trying to think of things to compare to they mention Aveyond, Cute Knight, Virtual Villagers, and... Pet Vet. :) (Hey, animals are cute.)

[whisperstorm]

You have to wonder how many casual players downloaded and played Aveyond knowing that you could eventually get your charaters to marry (right?)
Things like raising a child or other relationship type interactions in games are so underrepresented. I think there is probably an audience of casual players who would find that sort of thing appealing. Kinda like a Harlequin style escapism only in game form....

[MrQ]

That reminds me of PKing peoples wedding receptions back in the UO days on Sonoma ;) oh the loot...

[amaranth]

I think there is probably an audience of casual players who would find that sort of thing appealing. Kinda like a Harlequin style escapism only in game form....

I whole-heartedly agree! I'm not into the Harlequin thing, but I love playing games that involve characters and relationships.

[Coyote]

What's especially amusing is how many *MEN* - like core gamers - actually prefer that and ask about it in RPGs.

I was just kinda alerted to that by this column (http://www.scorpia.com/?p=211) recently...

But it seems that men are just as quick to rip on the attempt at romance and relationships in their RPGs. They request it, but they don't admit to actually LIKING it...

[amaranth]

What's especially amusing is how many *MEN* - like core gamers - actually prefer that and ask about it in RPGs.


I agree with this too! The reason I added a marriage feature to my game was because a couple of guy players asked for it.

[Sybixsus]

congrats! but, I'm sorry, Mr Blaub probably has already finished his masterpiece by now:
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showpost.php?p=86063&postcount=38

...he should have really good motivation, since is so easy to get on #3 of yahoo games! :D

Hey! No picking on Mr Blaub! I want the 3D MMOTBS he was writing just a few months earlier. :D

http://forums.3dgamers.com/showthread.php?t=9604

Or the fighting game his "company" was making just a few months before that.

http://www.devmaster.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3747

[amaranth]

OMG! Cute Knight is #2 at Yahoo!!! :eek: :p :D

Papillion's world takeover begins!

[whisperstorm]

Here's to hoping it leads to $$$ for her!

Cute Knight is also on the games.yahoo.com front page!

[papillon]

So, where's the flood of clones following in our footsteps? C'mon, guys, catch up! *grin*


(Seriously, I keep expecting that I'm going to wake up one morning and the past couple of weeks will all have been a dream...)

[KNau]

You stumbled on the new great secret of indie business - "make something that can't be cloned in a weekend". I think you're safe for a while still. Congrats!

[whisperstorm]

This is one genre of game where I think we'd welcome some clones.
But Papillon - you should strike while the interest is high and get a sequel out - folks will be wanting something "new" once they are done.

[soniCron]

I didn't want to hound you with another congratulations message, Pap, but I really think it's in order: Congratulations!!

I hope this is just the beginning of a growing diversity in casual gaming! :)

[Coyote]

I've noticed that Cute Knight's sales have been increasing on my own site as well. Some kind of spillover? Maybe. I am not complaining.

Again, congrats! That is seriously awesome news.

[amaranth]

Well, I can say that each time my game went live on a big portal, there was an increase in sales overall, everywhere. The game also jumped back onto the charts at other portals. I seriously think there is a chain reaction when a game hits a top 10 at a portal. It ripples everywhere else.

It also makes me wonder... if you have a top 5 game, it's almost like the crowd feeds on itself... I don't know... like take a look at the game Cake Mania. It just sits there like it's floating. Maybe its akin to being shot into space? Most don't make it, but the ones that go higher stay up longer. Then you have some that actually leave the atmosphere and just sit at the top. :D

Cute Knight is back in the top 5 at Arcade Town last I saw. We should watch and see if it jumps up a slot.

[Coyote]

I would expect the "critical mass" effect to be more localized. Sure, if you are at the top of the list on a major site, people visiting the site will keep downloading this game that's on the top of the list, thereby KEEPING it there...

But other sites as well?

Maybe. Suspicion: Casual Gamers are actually a pretty social bunch, and discuss what games they like a lot... but "out of band" - not necessarily on the Internet. Which would make sense. I have a friend (a casual gamer, though she loves civilization - and was COMPLETELY hooked on Aveyond I might add) who told me about Virtual Villagers after hearing about it from another friend --- who could not remember the name of the game, but she loved it.

Said friend-of-the-friend told her about it in-person, and my friend told me via Instant Messenger.

I had no idea where the original lady downloaded the game... the referral process completely breaks down. So I had to hunt it down another way.

If this sort of thing happens a lot, it would explain that behavior you are describing, Amanda.

[soniCron]

Cute Knight is back in the top 5 at Arcade Town last I saw. We should watch and see if it jumps up a slot. Unfortunately, I don't think that would be a reliable observation. It has been jumping all over the charts for quite some time (http://www.game-sales-charts.com/cms/index.php?option=com_dbquery&Itemid=33&task=ExecuteQuery&qid=39). I suspect a more reliable source would be the Big Fish Games Top 10 chart (http://www.game-sales-charts.com/cms/index.php?option=com_dbquery&Itemid=33&task=ExecuteQuery&qid=39). It's certainly something to keep an eye on, though! :)

[arcadetown]

Note our top games chart changed mid Aug to be sorted by top sellers. Otherwise Cute Knight would have been hanging around our top chart ever since late spring launch. Excellent staying power. Breaking top 5 here is a tough nut to crack given the steep climb at top of sales curve, so kudos.

Good sellers do tend to see a bump when doing hot elsewhere. Perhaps name recognition and our users aren't as loyal as I want them to be? Some retail guys say exposure in online channels drives more retail sales, so makes sense same would happen in alternate online channels.

[Bad Sector]

So, where's the flood of clones following in our footsteps? C'mon, guys, catch up! *grin*

Well, there is a site with free RPGs and it has *MANY* of them. I don't remember the URL (i found it accidentally at some point). However, most of them were bad, either from a gameplay or mechanics point of view or from a story point of view.

To make a good RPG you need much more thinking than to make a match-3 game. In the match-3 case, the gameplay is already found. You may twist it a bit, but not that much. In the RPG case, the gameplay is a lot more open. For example, in a Aveyond-style you mostly go around, collect items, fight monsters and interact with NPCs. But then the case with a Cute Knight-styled game is different: you have a main screen with possible options and interact with these options. In Aveyond the gameplay is more interactive, while Cute Knight is more about good decisions.

Still, both are RPGs and both blend mechanics found in earlier games.

And let's not forget a very important part of a RPG: the story. If someone is able to create an impressive RPG engine and use good mechanics, the result will be an mediocre RPG if the story is bad.

And personally, i wouldn't play a non-techfest RPG game if it didn't had a good story :-) (or cute graphics to look at, but that wouldn't last long enough to convince me buy it :-P).

[tentons]

Maybe there's some kind of hundredth monkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_Monkey) phenomenon with top 10 games? :) Congrats on the success to both of you! It's inspiring.

[whisperstorm]

I wonder, what do folks use to write out a complicated plot? Microsoft outliner? Scraps of paper? Are there any good tools to help an indie game developer flesh out a plot?

I think having something like that might help facilitate more story driven casual games like CK...

[Slayerizer]

I wonder, what do folks use to write out a complicated plot? Microsoft outliner? Scraps of paper? Are there any good tools to help an indie game developer flesh out a plot?

I think having something like that might help facilitate more story driven casual games like CK...

I don't know if there is any free alternative but this sounds like a good software
mindmapper (http://www.mindmapper.com/)

[Slayerizer]

I don't know if there is any free alternative but this sounds like a good software
mindmapper (http://www.mindmapper.com/)

found freemind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeMind)

I compiled a list of free tools (http://www.woxxom.com/free-softwares/), so far I have 3 mind manager softwares..