Donations & Finnish Laws... You are a criminal...

[Polycount Productions]

In Finland, it's illegal (without a permission) for one to gather money. (there are some exceptions, but basically it's illegal unless you have a permission).

I had two interesting phone calls with Finnish authorities. First I called to our home town's police department about donations law (law regarding collecting money, so called "rahankeräyslaki" which dates back to 1980 - and gets renewed soon).

First the police officer said about my request that it's better to call ministry about issue this big.

So I did.

I called a guy who was preparing the law and asked whether it would be illegal for me to collect donations via my website. It turns out that there has been much debate about the issue, but gathering money in "public network" (such as Internet) is illegal (without permission).

It's really hard to say how the system works (not sure if the government even agrees on all parts ;)) but basically, anyone who is collecting donations at the moment in the Internet would be (most likely) subject to fines for breaking Finnish laws. The official admited that naturally Finnish police force has no rights to do anything in other countries... but basically if you collect donations and happen to walk on the streets: watch your back, they just might be after you ;)

So.... bottom line:
- When one asks money such as donations in Internet, he is breaking the Finnish laws IF from Finland you can access your site.
- To prevent breaking Finnish laws, you either need a permission to ask money OR play with the fine line of 'business service versus donations' (don't ask, but collecting donations can get many meanings...) OR if you prevent finns (people from Finland) to access your site.

Looks like I need to make a script to detect country, and if it's Finland then I won't give access to donations.

I can't but ask why I'm paying big taxes to get people like this to do laws like that.

Man, I'm so ready to move ;)

[ZuluBoy]

Whoa :eek: , this is my third year in Finland, and I never knew that.
So where and how can someone get the permission ?

[PeterM]

A fun experiment might not be to hide the donations link, but instead to put a little message underneath saying "It is illegal to donate in Finland" or something to that effect.

Maybe your donations will go up! ;)

[cliffski]

cant you phrase it so you arent donating but purchasing a thankyou email? as long as everyone who donates gets an email, its just a financial transaction, not a donation :D.

[nikolas]

I would expect that something so international (I'm greek, living in the UK and my website was published through an American company :D), would abide the international laws and not the national ones...

It is indeed extremely strange for anyone who has a donation button to receive a fine from the finish goverment, or police,or whatever, because a finish guy decided to rightfully imo give a couple of bucks to a game developer he liked.

It sounds rather far fetched...

EDIT: Even more the basic concept is this: Since I have nothing to do with Finland, whatsoever, that law can't touch me. I don't really care of the whole finish people come and give me money, my site has nothing to do with finland. The law says it's illegal to gather money. Bot get money from...

[Jamie W]

Man, I'm so ready to move ;)

I wouldn't bother mate, officialdom, is contrived, inefficient and petty, wherever you are in the world. Isn't it great that we pay our taxes to fund such bafoonery!

I was going to suggest something along the lines of what cliffski suggested. Cirvumvent the law, by dressing the donation up as a payment from something, a 'thanks for paying to view this web-page' kinda thing.

[Ricardo C]

Sounds like it's a law meant to prevent pyramid schemes. Which is a nice idea, but what a ridiculous execution.

[Polycount Productions]

I would expect that something so international (I'm greek, living in the UK and my website was published through an American company :D), would abide the international laws and not the national ones...

It is indeed extremely strange for anyone who has a donation button to receive a fine from the finish goverment, or police,or whatever, because a finish guy decided to rightfully imo give a couple of bucks to a game developer he liked.

It sounds rather far fetched...

EDIT: Even more the basic concept is this: Since I have nothing to do with Finland, whatsoever, that law can't touch me. I don't really care of the whole finish people come and give me money, my site has nothing to do with finland. The law says it's illegal to gather money. Bot get money from...
@nikolas: Think of this way:

Imagine that you would have a very, very good rifle and you'd shot a Finnish guy from where you are at now. Even if shooting others using rifle would be legal in your country, it isn't legal in Finland - thus you would get arrested.

Similarly: if a guy from Finland gets asked for money... it's illegal. Maybe.

I would like to point out that: "collecting money / asking donations" term IS bit difficult to define, and each case would propably be thought out properly. What I'm saying here is an attempt to make it simple - in reality, it is more complex than this.

For example: the ministry dudes said that "having website that people just randomly check, without attempt to 'actively get more "clients"' wouldn't perhaps be under this legislation". Now... what this "randomly checks" or this "actively" means is confusing at best :)

But basically... if you have donations button - you are most likely breaking our laws. You criminal ;)

@ZuluBoy: Police department might help you. But, actually... one needs to have some kind of organisation and a Finnish bank account or something. The exact details can be get from police. Anyway - what others here suggest (cliffski for example) could work, but as a Finnish guy I think it's best way to prevent Finnish IPs from seeing the donations button & thus preventing those who access from Finland to participate. Ministry guy said this would be legal.

@PeterM: I think they would spot sarcasm ;)

@cliffski: in fact... this was one of the issues with the law. The fine line between 'service' and donations could make it legal. (but rewording might not be sufficient...)

---

End note: I'm not a lawyer, so don't take my legal advice on this, about how to make it legal (in Finland). Consult police etc. for details. One way to make it legal - as said from the ministry - was to simply block Finnish guys from accessing the donations page.

[Polycount Productions]

Sounds like it's a law meant to prevent pyramid schemes. Which is a nice idea, but what a ridiculous execution.
Something like that...

[spellcaster]

Hm.. if you Server is located in Finland collection donations would be a problem no matter if the people you collect money from are from Finland or not (like begging in a street fron toursist without permission would be a problem).

If the server isn't located in Finland, it's no problem since the local laws would apply. So, if a Fin gives some money to a beggar in Italy that's ok, since the beggar isn't under finnish jurisdication and the Fin isn't doing something wrong (giving is ok, just collecting might be a problem).

The only grey area would be a Server in another country belonging to a Finish person. Or in other words: if a Fin collects money in Germany, will he break a law?

[Polycount Productions]

Hm.. if you Server is located in Finland collection donations would be a problem no matter if the people you collect money from are from Finland or not (like begging in a street fron toursist without permission would be a problem).

If the server isn't located in Finland, it's no problem since the local laws would apply. So, if a Fin gives some money to a beggar in Italy that's ok, since the beggar isn't under finnish jurisdication and the Fin isn't doing something wrong (giving is ok, just collecting might be a problem).

The only grey area would be a Server in another country belonging to a Finish person. Or in other words: if a Fin collects money in Germany, will he break a law?
Nope :)

My server is not located in Finland, and that's not the issue. The issue is that "you cannot collect money from Finnish people who hear the message in Finland" (without a permission).

Think about the rifle example above: "shooting a Finnish man from USA would be illegal under Finnish laws".

Finnishman can go fetch donations in England or in German or anywhere they want (besides Finland :p )

Similarly, even if you are from USA, you cannot make a TV commercial in Finland asking money from Finnish.

But that's about it. I discontinue explaining this issue any more.

For those of you who are NOT from Finland: NEVER MIND, the officials won't get you anyway :)

For those of you who ARE from Finland: Block Finnish IPs or ask more details from the police about this

[spellcaster]

So, if someone collects money for the Red Cross via a TV show in Germany and this is on the satellite TV, if a Fin would actually donate, the Red Cross would have broken the law?

Is Finland in the EU? I doubt that something like this is valid since it impacts the other EU countries as well...

[Polycount Productions]

So, if someone collects money for the Red Cross via a TV show in Germany and this is on the satellite TV, if a Fin would actually donate, the Red Cross would have broken the law?

If they wouldn't have permission to get money from Finns and if it shows in Finland then (if I understood correctly) I presume it would be illegal.

EDIT: On the other hand, it could be argued whether TV satellite company is responsible - I do not know, I am not a lawyer :)

Is Finland in the EU? I doubt that something like this is valid since it impacts the other EU countries as well...
Finland is in the EU. We are the next freaking "chairman country" (or how you call it) :) I bet people will talk about this law... ;)

But hey - even though we are in EU that doesn't mean we couldn't have our own laws. Like for example: in Holland it's okay to use certain narcotics that are legal in Finland.

Hey, I should have stopped here ;)

P.S. Oh, and please check here: http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?p=96909

[electronicStar]

You can file a complaint at the european court against your country if you feel your rights are violated.

[Polycount Productions]

You can file a complaint at the european court against your country if you feel your rights are violated.
Yeh, but again - it's a Finnish law, and as it's not about freedom of speech or acts against human rights I don't think there's much to say about.

Besides - I have few other things to do ;)

[arcadetown]

The intent is probably to stop scammers from soliciting donations for bogus charities, which is a rampant problem on the net. In the case of donations for your game/website where you're clearly stating what it's for and you're not committing fraud I would doubt you'd run into enforcement issues.

[Sillysoft]

If you think a law is stupid and you want to fight it then a simple way is to just ignore it, and tell everyone that you are doing so. Of course, you have to be willing to accept some consequences if the government decides they want to punish you and end up succeeding in doing so. For a case like this I can't foresee any really bad consequences though (but I couldn't foresee any crazy law like this in the first place either).

Such a practice of publicly ignoring bad laws has a long history, and has been responsible for some very important changes throughout history. In English it's known as Civil Disobedience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience).

Maybe you could even raise your profile in Finland if you embarked on a public campaign against this bad law.

[Polycount Productions]

@arcadetown: actually... it dates back to 1980 - hardly no Internet back then. The main purpose of the law is stop bogus charities that run on streets... now as the Internet (and Internet donations) are here, it's a new medium and a new situation.

If you think a law is stupid and you want to fight it then a simple way is to just ignore it, and tell everyone that you are doing so. Of course, you have to be willing to accept some consequences if the government decides they want to punish you and end up succeeding in doing so. For a case like this I can't foresee any really bad consequences though (but I couldn't foresee any crazy law like this in the first place either).

Such a practice of publicly ignoring bad laws has a long history, and has been responsible for some very important changes throughout history. In English it's known as Civil Disobedience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience).

Maybe you could even raise your profile in Finland if you embarked on a public campaign against this bad law.
The law is stupid alright, but the fact that Finnish people are minority, so it's only one nation that gets blocked. I guess there's the sympathy point, but I really have something else to do than to fight this law.

And I don't intend to break the law, simply because I don't want to get fines. And Civil disobedience is very well known for me, as a guy who has read books & seen a movie about the life of Gandhi. That guy lead India to independence... but as said - I have something else to do rather than mess with the government ;) If this was a matter of great importance (rather than matter of great stupidity :)) I would follow the path you suggested.

Maybe I could start an address about this...

[PoV]

Man... this would have made a great "thread" for April 1st.

[Polycount Productions]

Man... this would have made a great "thread" for April 1st.
You just wish... and so do I

[Ste Pickford]

cant you phrase it so you arent donating but purchasing a thankyou email? as long as everyone who donates gets an email, its just a financial transaction, not a donation :D.

If you are getting something in return then it isn't a donation, but a purchase, and therefore taxable income.