Casual game with a cute charactor

[bennylam]

Do you know any casual game is successful because of a built-in cute character (e.g. special personality, dog, cat or monkey.. etc)?

Super Mario is successful in game console but it is not a casual game and it has a huge promotion by Nintendo.

Do you think it is practical or feasible for a small budget casual game to go for this strategy or game design?
Any success or failure cases in indie game developer?

Thanks

[Sybixsus]

Alawar and the Snowy the Bear games spring straight to mind.

[Gilzu]

umm...

Rayman, Dweep, Alien flux (fluffies!), Best Friends, Cletus Clay, Hamsterball...

[Rebrehc's Industries]

Those Chuzzles are pretty cute. They're even ticklish.

[Savant]

Almost every puzzle game that comes out has a cute character or a smiling grandmother or a friendly looking mother or whatever. It's pretty much a staple. It's like a world map - everyone else has one so you have to.

[Anthony Flack]

But how many really have fun with their characters?

I love the character design part. I love dreaming up an extreme character; giving them funny expressions, funny poses, making them say funny things. You don't need an excuse to character-up your game. They're too much fun not to. I'd much prefer to use them for comedic effect than just general cutesy encouragement though. Give the characters a bit of bite, I reckon. Make them angry, or sarcastic, or... well, anything other than mindless, wide-eyed enthusiasm. Give them life. There is so much scope for a character to become a proper selling point in your game, if you can really make them fun to be with.

[Savant]

Oh I agree. Many games have cute/friendly characters but in the vast majority of cases it's just window dressing (and yes, Dr.Germ failed here as well). If you want to develop an IP you can use in the future and have it be worth something the characters have to be something other than a replacement for gems or background graphics for the main menu.

[jefferytitan]

But how many really have fun with their characters?

I love the character design part. I love dreaming up an extreme character; giving them funny expressions, funny poses, making them say funny things. You don't need an excuse to character-up your game. They're too much fun not to. I'd much prefer to use them for comedic effect than just general cutesy encouragement though. Give the characters a bit of bite, I reckon. Make them angry, or sarcastic, or... well, anything other than mindless, wide-eyed enthusiasm. Give them life. There is so much scope for a character to become a proper selling point in your game, if you can really make them fun to be with.

Totally with you. I love characters that are comedically irate, sneaky or just plain weird. But you need some brief background to the character in mind so they actually act in a way that makes sense. I hate the pointless cute/"comic relief" characters you get in a lot of anime where that is their only purpose and nobody else ever says anything funny. Serious people can be the best for humour, like Angel (from the shows Buffy and Angel) when he's being petty.

[zoombapup]

A friend of mine married a japanese woman. He came back to the office and gave out lots of little mini presents to the team. We were talking about characters and he said that in japan, you simply cannot make a product WITHOUT a character.

For instance, you go to a bank to get out some money from a cash dispenser. The cash dispenser is a little rabbit/monkey cute thing and happily tells you how much you have left etc.

He said that even his father in laws fire station (a specific STATION, not the force as a whole) has its own mascot cutesy character.

I think the japanese have understood that characters are iconic representations of fun, so by association you wouldnt make a game without some form of character.

I think having a really insane cutesy character is a brilliant idea :)

[SteveZ]

I also agree cute character(s) will boost the overall appeal to a game.

Citing on a personal example, 2 yrs ago, I created a game called "Cactus Bruce & the Corporate Monkeys". You play as a cactus pirate and you fight against evil corporate monkeys.

When the game was presented to Yahoo! for distribution, one of the biggest factors which won them over was the cute monkeys. I thought they would prefer the ugly mug cactus, guess not :)

-Steve Z.

[tewe76]

TAPAZAPA (http://www.tapazapa.com) is going to be the next Mickey Mouse of casual games (i hope) :p (look at http://www.tapazapa.com/AboutUs/index.htm for a short story)

Yes, i think a cute character is a good thing. But, if possible, not only in one of your games but in every one (like Snowy, as has been said). If people buy your games for the character and not for the game itself, that's perfect!

[Drake]

I think it's important to remember that different aspects of your character design can achieve different things. In "Dodge That Anvil!" the audiovisual design is mostly for kids, but the writing is for adults. In this way the game follows the model set by the big animated feature films of the last 10 years or so. The grownups are engaged by smart dialogue, and the younger kids are too busy enjoying the wacky sights and sounds to know what they're missing.

[Anthony Flack]

He said that even his father in laws fire station (a specific STATION, not the force as a whole) has its own mascot cutesy character.

I live near Yotsuya police station. The police also have a silly mascot (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eesti/150272314/) that they put on everything. In addition, there are full-sized, chubby cartoon fiberglass statues of a policeman and police woman flanking the main door.

[arcadetown]

Cute Knight (http://www.arcadetown.com/cuteknight/game.asp) - it's even in the name and selling quite nicely here, almost flash/cartoony like.

Cake Mania (http://www.arcadetown.com/cakemania/game.asp) - spoke in depth with the Sandlot folks about the Jill character and it was no accident this game was a huge success as they really paid a lot of attention to graphics detail, in particular Jill making her uber cute and absolutely non-offensive.

Snowy Lunch Rush (http://www.arcadetown.com/snowylunchrush/game.asp) - selling nicely everywhere, my gut says less to do with the cute Snowy character and more to do with hot genre. Best selling Snowy game so far.

[Savant]

in particular Jill making her uber cute and absolutely non-offensive
Right smack dab in the middle of the road. Nothing like mediocrity to drive sales.

[Anthony Flack]

I don't say this often; but my sentiments exactly.

That character design is so non-offensive, it is, to me, some of the most offensive character design I've ever seen. Purest bland.

[cliffski]

amen brothers. I hate the blandness thats creeping into video game design.
Can you even *imagine* a role playing game or adventure game where the protaganist was in a wheelchair? or black?

I guess the numbers don't add up. Urban chaos had a karate kicking female black police officer as the hero, and that company went bust.

Before anyone mentions it, I havent got a black avatar in Kudos because there arent any black skins for Poser yet, much to my annoyance.

[Anthony Flack]

Can you even *imagine* a role playing game or adventure game where the protaganist was in a wheelchair? or black?

Yes I can, and that would be sweet! My wheelchair is kicking ass.

Actually, many, many years ago, I devised this crazy RPG, which was kind of a cartoony Diablo, set in a world a bit like the Sims (but before the Sims) - only much stranger. Characters could be cut in half, and have to continue playing in a wheelchair. (They could also be decapitated, and have to continue with their heads resting on a little flying saucer).

One of my concept pictures showed a balding middle-aged guy, a black man and a hippie, fighting a whole lot of nerd heads ("nerd" was a character class) that were attached to flying saucers, fitted with bubble blowers (you could attack with potions and poisons using the bubble blowers). The dungeon was a suburban house - I also envisioned streets, office buildings, supermarkets and swimming pool complexes as dungeons.

Ah, those dream games you'll never make...

[electronicStar]

Before anyone mentions it, I havent got a black avatar in Kudos because there arent any black skins for Poser yet, much to my annoyance.
I don't know about the last versions but I remember from Poser 3 that it was really easy to create new skins (well for someone coming from the modmaking scene anyway).

[KNau]

What's bothersome is when "cute" is all that's on the menu. You don't have to outright offend people, but how about challenging them a little? Show something that hasn't already been done 1000 times.

[arcadetown]

That character design is so non-offensive, it is, to me, some of the most offensive character design I've ever seen. Purest bland.
That character design is absolutely incredible in my mind. Some of the best I've ever seen, bar none. Just look at the attention to detail. One person's non-offensive garbage is another person's gold.

And I'm sure if anyone here saw the kind of royalties a game like Cake Mania generates, probably easily in the 100s of thousands, they would quickly get off their high horse.

[Ricardo C]

Brian, haven't you heard?

"If your work appeals to everyone, it’s worthless." (http://1goodgame.com/blog/2006/06/30/why-settle-for-mediocre/#comments)

Apparently, audience rejection is the mark of the true indie :rolleyes: "I'm not failing, I'm challenging the audience!"

[KNau]

That bears the question - are originality and success mutually exclusive?

Discuss.

[Savant]

Apparently, audience rejection is the mark of the true indie "I'm not failing, I'm challenging the audience!"
It's disappointing to me that you believe the only way to succeed is to pump out portal pablum.

[Ricardo C]

It's disappointing to me that you believe the only way to succeed is to pump out portal pablum.

Quote where I said that :)

[DangerCode]

It's disappointing to me that you believe the only way to succeed is to pump out portal pablum.

I don't recall anyone saying that, and I'm convinced that every large portal is crammed full of "pablum" that doesn't sell. At what point can we discuss things with maturity and respect?

Cake Mania certainly isn't for everyone (myself included) but if I do believe it is commonly referred to as a casual game.

If that's not your thing, that's great, but their success is undeniable, so I don't understand how CM's example can be construed to prove that cute/non-offensive characters is bad for business.

And besides, what kind of person is offended by a non-offensive character? Talk about sensitivity! :D

[Anthony Flack]

Not at all. I tried Cake Mania and found the character design to be sickly to the point of being irritating - it was almost Dick and Jane territory - and I also felt the manipulation... that this was a character genetically engineered to have mass-market appeal.

It is those very qualities that offend me the most - because it is becoming so pervasive these days.


And I'm sure if anyone here saw the kind of royalties a game like Cake Mania generates, probably easily in the 100s of thousands, they would quickly get off their high horse.

You should know me better than that by now. I don't care about the money, and I'm never getting off my high horse and into the mud. Broad appeal, success and mediocrity are a winning combination for sure. But I really don't see the point.

[DangerCode]

For what it's worth, Anthony, I've always found Platypus to be, well, cute. I can't imagine your design being any less purposeful than Cake Mania's. (I mean, Platypus's cutish design is no less an accident than CMs)

I certainly don't mind it, though.

[DangerCode]

Broad appeal, success and mediocrity are a winning combination for sure.

I don't understand why "mediocrity" has to be forced into the equation by you guys. I keep thinking of games like Zelda and Mario that have broad appeal and are very successful - and to say they are mediocre as well would be a crime IMHO.

We all have varying personal tastes that perhaps keeps us from fully appreciating why one game is better received than another ... but I don't think we need to read "cute" and "non-offensive" but repeat "mediocre" and "bland" in its stead, especially when someone takes the time to politely answer the questions of a newcomer.

This is harsh, but its as if some of you folks really do hate this industry so much or hold the customer in such contempt that I truly wonder what possible joy you can receive from it.

.

[Anthony Flack]

Because it's not really about cute, which is fine. It is about being overly concerned about being "non-offensive"; it is about deliberately trying to broaden your appeal to the extent that you self-censor any kind of personality out of your work.

It is absolutely not essential to water your work down to nothing in order to be successful. Zelda games have quite a lot of sly humour in them; they're not afraid to be a little bit off-centre. But Zelda games are only trying to appeal to Zelda fans (of whom there are many, of course - but they are nonetheless hardcore fans). They're not trying to be the #1 converting game on a portal's top 10 list. It doesn't matter if 9 out of 10 people hate Zelda games, as long as that other 1 out of 10 think they're the greatest thing ever.

It is the strategy of trying to please enough people to get them to buy the game, without turning anyone away, that is so depressing. Let's say your character had some trait that made 90% of your game's fans love the game 10x more; but for the other 10%, they hated it so much they would be put off from buying it. Casual Game Economics says that you are better off removing that trait, since having someone love your game 10x more isn't going to earn you any more money, but losing a sale is losing a sale. This is the path to mediocrity, and this is the one thing that I have always, always fought against, in videogames and in everything else. It depresses the hell out of me to see everyone making their products less interesting in order to be more popular.

You only have one life; speak with your true voice and give people something to remember you by! What does Cake Mania tell me about the people who made it? Nothing. What do Hamumu's games tell me about Hamumu? A whole lot.

And no, I don't enjoy making games much. It's hard work. But hate the industry, hate the customers? I am my own industry, and my customers are the people that like what I do. So no.

[DangerCode]

But Zelda games are only trying to appeal to Zelda fans (of whom there are many, of course - but they are nonetheless hardcore fans). They're not trying to be the #1 converting game on a portal's top 10 list.

Well, I think that's just complete nonsense. :p

Where does Nintendo find these Zelda fans? I didn't come out of the womb crying for Link's bomberang.

Do you remember this thread (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=7301)?

Here you mention how hardcore Zelda fans felt betrayed by the cutesy Zelda: Wind Waker installation. In that discussion, you thought such an objection by fans was nonsense and praise Nintendo for the direction they took.

Fans were expecting a gritty, dark, and mature Zelda game and instead got a kiddie saturday morning cartoon. But don't worry, like you I applauded Nintendo for it. I love Wind Waker.

But when you think about it, not only does that invalidate your claim that Nintendo only caters to Zelda fans, but it also appears to contradict your opinion here on opting for the cutesy, "non-offensive" style.

.

[Anthony Flack]

Not in the least. The art direction of Wind Waker was very daring; not playing it safe at all. You seem to have interpreted my position as being anti-cute, or anti-cartoony. That is absolutely not the case. I love cute, cartoony things - if I feel like they are sincere creations, rather than just a branding exercise.

Also, I didn't mean to say that Nintendo cater exclusively to Zelda fans; but rather that the success of a Zelda game does not depend on across-the-board appeal. The success of a game on a portal, however, depends on top-10 placement, which in turn is dependent on appealing to the largest possible percentage of people who visit that portal. So it is more important to worry about the people who hate it than the people who love it.

It's a whole different strategy, and one that I think produces unhealthy impulses in developers. Impulses which have led to the development of the least interesting, least creative segment of the game industry ever. (I don't think that's just my opinion, either; I don't remember anyone speaking with any passion about this particular business strategy, except to say that it was a good way to make money).

[DangerCode]

You seem to have interpreted my position as being anti-cute, or anti-cartoony.

No, that certainly can't be the case with Platypus.

I think it's perhaps having an attitude against games you don't like or appreciate like Snood or Cake Mania or something. And I think people tend to talk in circles when they are justifying such a stance.


... the success of a Zelda game does not depend on across-the-board appeal.

I suppose we'll have no choice than to agree to disagree on that. I feel that many of Nintendo's products (like Zelda) have a purposeful mass appeal, and it should be obvious they are trying to widen their net to create more and more gamers.

And of course, that's great stuff, but I don't understand why we're supposed to be disgusted when (gasp!) a casual game takes that mass-appeal approach.

Which, IMHO, isn't really mass-appeal anyhow. I can't think of one gaming friend that would be interested in Cake Mania. But my mother perhaps ...

<shrugs>

[Anthony Flack]

Perhaps I am talking in circles. But the point I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter how many people HATE Zelda, as long as there are enough fans who will buy the game. Nintendo will still make sure the game gets adequate promotion. It doesn't matter if 80% of the people who walk into a game store have no interest in Zelda.

Whereas with a portal game, where you are fighting not just for sales but for promotion as well, the most important thing is that a large percentage of regular portal visitors like the game enough to buy it - otherwise it will drop off into obscurity. It is therefore essential that none of the portal's regular visitors are put off by the game for any reason.

That is the difference.

[arcadetown]

Let's see, Cake Mania is a cutesy game about making cakes in the BBB / Diner Dash genre. So I'll make the graphics...

A - Be ultra cute and non-offensive so you appeal to women who are your target audience.
B - Have a big breasted or somewhat edgey Jill to also appeal to guys who won't buy your game, while also turning off most women.
C - Put Jill in a leather dominatrix outfit and appeal to Anthony and myself, who also won't buy the game.

Wonder what the answer should be ;)

[Anthony Flack]

Well I wouldn't even get to that question, since it begs the question of whether Cake Mania needs to exist at all...

But Jill doesn't need to be given a dominatrix outfit and become all "edgy". She just... well, I guess if the game was being made for any other reason than pure economics, you wouldn't have to design a character to fit inside a certain mould; you'd probably already have something interesting fleshed out. But Jill doesn't seem like a character that somebody dreamed up and wanted to bring to life, she seems just like a product tailored for a market demographic. She's Poochy the Dog. That's the difference between the cute I like and the cute that offends me.

Oh, and here's a coincidence. This (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainframe.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/mitchbenn_crimes) programme is not very funny, but at around 9:12 he makes the exact same argument about mediocre pop music.

[Anthony Flack]

Anyway, here's Gaspard (http://www.shokki.jp/gaspard/m/gaspard.jpg). He's cute in a way that doesn't seem forced.

[Ricardo C]

Anthony, would you have the same feelings about the Jill character if you hadn't heard she was intentionally designed to be "safe"?

[Anthony Flack]

Yes, although I probably wouldn't have said anything if it wasn't specifically mentioned. Actually I'm a little uncomfortable that this discussion has become so centered on this one game, which is only one random example. I don't want to give the impression that I have a special grudge against Cake Mania, because I'm actually railing against the whole world, and its money-centered ways. Grr!

But I think you can pick up on this marketing-driven design without having it pointed out to you. Although there are also times when people do it so well it seems completely natural...

Anyway, I've recently ordered a copy of Psychonauts. I'm hopeful that that will have plenty of good character design for me to enjoy.

[zoombapup]

Hmm, its kind of devolved. But I wanted to make a quick point.

I want to make a diner-dash style game. If I ever get the time to do one.

Why? because I want to make money, because I want to clone?

Nope.. its because I like the mechanic. I actually enjoy playing the game myself, but dont want to buy it. I also want to see how I'd make it differently.

Now if I were going to make it, I'd sure as hell make it cute. Why? because I *like* cute :)

Not everyone who does casual games is in it just to ride the wave. Some are in it because they enjoy those types of games. Normally I'm not one of them (dont particularly care for puzzle games), but I like the "queueing game" style of games. It feels like a one screen RTS to me. The time critical clicking and stacking of commands, feels very much like a really tiny scale command and conquer, which *IS* my kind of game.

[zoombapup]

Actually, making that point, I shouldve set that as an assignment to my students :)

Command and Conquer vs Diner Dash :)

[Rebrehc's Industries]

I own every single Hamumu game and Cake Mania. What does that say about me?

[soniCron]

Now I'm confused. Many of you are arguing that the character design is bland and mediocre because they tried to be cute and non-offensive. But then Anthony links to this dog (http://www.shokki.jp/gaspard/m/gaspard.jpg) to show that it doesn't have to be boring to be cute and non-offensive. That sounds like Cake Mania simply ended up with poor character design. And has nothing to do with trying to be cute and non-offensive.

Would someone please clarify their stance on this issue? :confused:

[DangerCode]

That is the difference.

Well, to be honest, I think it's all goobly-gop nonsense you're pulling from your butt. :D

Of course it matters to Nintendo (or any game publisher/retailer) how many people HATE or LOVE your game. And you're fooling yourself if you don't think Nintendo doesn't spend untold millions on concept art and focus groups on building their IPs with universal appeal.

Like the top 10 list on portals, Nintendo still needs to compete for shelf space against other industry giants in retail.

[Anthony Flack]

If the retailers were in charge of running the games' marketing campaigns, and only actively promoted 10 games at a time, I guess the effect would be similar.

But Zelda does not need to sell more copies than Grand Theft Auto or be pulled off the shelves and have its advertising cancelled. But in portal games, converting a tiny bit higher than your competitor is the difference between life and death. You are dependent on an indifferent third party to promote your game, and they will switch sides in a second. It's completely different from a company like Nintendo that publishes and markets its own games. If the point I'm trying to get across still sounds like gobeldygook nonsense, then that's too bad because I can't explain it any plainer than that.


Now I'm confused. Many of you are arguing that the character design is bland and mediocre because they tried to be cute and non-offensive. But then Anthony links to this dog to show that it doesn't have to be boring to be cute and non-offensive.

And I'll link to him again. Aww! Look at the sweet little guy! (http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/may01/gaspard.gif)

Nah, the issue was never about being cute. It's about... well, it's like the guy says in the audio clip.

[DangerCode]

Brian, haven't you heard?

"If your work appeals to everyone, it’s worthless." (http://1goodgame.com/blog/2006/06/30/why-settle-for-mediocre/#comments)

Apparently, audience rejection is the mark of the true indie :rolleyes: "I'm not failing, I'm challenging the audience!"


Whoa. Interesting link. Quick question, does Savant really edit people's names like that?

[Savant]

Quick question, does Savant really edit people's names like that?
If your post is pointless, content free and serves only to insult myself or others - yep.

I find the blog thing fascinating. No matter how badly I abuse people, they keep coming back.

[Sakura Games]

Oh well the world is full of idiots.

[DangerCode]

If your post is pointless, content free and serves only to insult myself or others - yep.

Bad form, Savant. You frequently use both this forum and that blog to insult people.

Let me ask you this: If I were to search your blog, would I find any entries from you complaining about your message being censored in this forum?

[Savant]

Probably. The thing is, I don't care. I'm an abusive hypocrite on a power trip.

Don't want to be abused and/or insulted? Don't post comments on my blog. Seems simple enough.

[DangerCode]

Probably. The thing is, I don't care. I'm an abusive hypocrite on a power trip.

Oh well, I guess that short circuits the discussion then. :rolleyes:

[Sakura Games]

Probably. The thing is, I don't care. I'm an abusive hypocrite on a power trip.

Don't want to be abused and/or insulted? Don't post comments on my blog. Seems simple enough.
Seems that even the moderators don't care if you fill this forum by one-line stupid posts! I took a look at old dexterity forums archives and those were good times, without such meaningless fights started by someone that defines himself that way... :eek:

[Savant]

Seems that even the moderators don't care if you fill this forum by one-line stupid posts! I took a look at old dexterity forums archives and those were good times, without such meaningless fights started by someone that defines himself that way... :eek:
"Oh well the world is full of idiots."

I agree.

[Sakura Games]

Yes Mylord

[arcadetown]

Seems that even the moderators don't care if you fill this forum by one-line stupid posts! I took a look at old dexterity forums archives and those were good times, without such meaningless fights started by someone that defines himself that way... :eek:
Not at all true. I hate to do it as I'm all for open discussion but other moderators have warned him and there is a line to be drawn, so we put a temporary day ban on Savant in hopes he'll clean up. He's free to do whatever he wishes on his blog but this isn't the place for it.