Art people always broke

[terenctb]

I was just musing this and also on something that Nick from Moonpod said on one of the other threads.

I have a fairly decent set of artists and if focused, they do excellent work. The problem is they are always broke. I don't know why but it always seems that way. They always moan about not being able to do game work and having to run around find jobs to keep them alive.

I was wondering if this a normal thing anywhere in the world. It seems so.

I feel that always puts them in a bad situation, making programmers always the people driving the game, schedules etc? I would love it for once to find an artist driving development.

Maybe I'm generalizing too much...but I would like to figure out how to break this cycle and get da artists back from slavery.

[electronicStar]

Give them more money?

[Ratboy]

Give them more money?That would solve the problem quite nicely. :cool:

[PoV]

It's strange, but the artists I know/have worked with all tend to fall in to this category as well. The reasoning varies, but the ones that make the most seem to spend it on DVD's, Games, Comic's, Toys, eating out, and every other way to burn money except smoking. Now there are many programmers I know in the same boat... not broke, but living paycheque to paycheque without much savings. 'course, those of us with a savings were also those of us with ... plans. ;)

[Anthony Flack]

Being an artist (back when that was how I made my money) always led to me being broke. As an artist, you'll always want to do your best and the money never covers the effort you end up putting in. And you'll end up doing the interesting jobs for low pay, rather than the mundane, lucrative ones, most likely.

Plus, it's always the programmers driving this business; the artists are usually contracted and I know most of you don't have the budget to pay good artists what their work is worth.

Best thing an artist could do would be to learn to program. Although I did do that and I still haven't made any money from it, so maybe it's just the nature of things.

[Gilzu]

Best thing an artist could do would be to learn to program. Although I did do that and I still haven't made any money from it, so maybe it's just the nature of things.

Or pick up a copy of any game generator to create a (possible) great game. AFAIK, the creator of Kaptain Brawe said she wasn't a programmer and uses this kind of tool - and look at the fantastic outcome.

[AnthemAudio]

Or pick up a copy of any game generator to create a (possible) great game. AFAIK, the creator of Kaptain Brawe said she wasn't a programmer and uses this kind of tool - and look at the fantastic outcome.

That game needs voices.

Sorry. Had to say it again.

Anyway, there's savings and plans and savings plans. Then there's finding work that pays near your worth. Harder to find. Easy to find a job simply pumping out assets. Harder to find a job where they bring the artist in and they can actually steer parts of development...the actual integration and implementation.

Penny for your thoughts?

Basically, try to find a job where they care what you think, and that your input is more than a model or texture, then the pay will increase. It's the same in the audio world. I had to have a full time job just to keep the "sound thing" going. Now my full time job IS the "sound thing" and my expertise in the area is critical to completion of projects.

They also pay me more for this.:cool:

Tony

[Jason Chong]

The reasoning varies, but the ones that make the most seem to spend it on DVD's, Games, Comic's, Toys, eating out, and every other way to burn money except smoking.


BINGO.

Artists tend to be driven by emotion, not logic. Many cannot be reasoned with properly. Many have no financial management wisdom.

[Anthony Flack]

My experience as a broke artist didn't involve DVDs, toys, games, eating out, or anything like that. It was more about struggling to find the rent money and having no food.

And now that I am earning good money, I do spend freely, but I still manage to save around 80% of it. I know a lot of artists and they are all pretty realistic in their attitudes. You have to be, unless you have rich parents.

[bignobody]

The "starving artist" is certainly not a new phenomenon. There's never enough patrons to go around...

[yanuart]

The reasoning varies, but the ones that make the most seem to spend it on DVD's, Games, Comic's, Toys, eating out, and every other way to burn money except smoking.
ohh and not to mention how they love novelty mac product which always cost twice as PCs thingy.

[ggambett]

The "starving artist" is certainly not a new phenomenon. There's never enough patrons to go around...
I guess the "always broke" mode is common not only for artists but for anyone who produces something which isn't directly sellable. If as an artist you say "oh, I create art, people should pay me for the sheer beauty of what I do"... yes, you'll probably be a broke artist. But the same would happen to me if I decided to sit all day and dream up new algorithms or theorems. How many people can live off sitting down and doing pure art/pure math/pure computer science? I guess very few, even university researchers are generally funded by grants with specific goals in mind.

I'd rather be developing algorithms than making games, probably. But reality says it won't help me pay the bills, whereas making games is similar enough to be extremely enjoyable and it's profitable. Same with artists - broke artists should find a way to monetize their skills! Of course the artist subculture has this funny concept of calling this behavior "selling out" and "not being real", and prefer being a starving artist with a pure soul than actually making money off their passion.

BTW, my artists aren't broke, we share profits. electronicStar's solution is very effective ;)

[Sysiphus]

Well, I'm usually broke. But not so much lately (I save a lot of money, and never waste in all those secondary things. Also, I have discovered I don't really need them, and costs me blood to earn each $. )

The real reason of we being usually broke is to me very simple. In my country and specially my region, there's loads of job offers for programming.Way less for art and design. For every load of programming or system admin offers, I do find a ridiculous number of gfx making offer. Of course, in just a bit more evolved cities, I'd have zero problems. But there's the personal decission of each one not leave (or actually do so) your favourite place while you still can resist/survive.

We grab in these places the jobs that pops out as crazy, cause there's simply no more. Bosses know it and the treatment in my experience to a programmer tends to be better. In money, politeness, consideration...all.

In better cities, stuff changes. Specially when technology is more than a factor in the activity of the city.

What is more, programming jobs, are in a big percentage, more stable than the usual jobs available for artists: Maybe more boring for some people, but perhaps coding databases for a huge company is a bit more stable than drawing storyboards for a film company for making a single film, get into one soon-to-die game company, or working for an small , weak design company.

being this the situation, maybe some just throw all money as they know anyway there's no way to get rich unless you really get lucky (and those lucky get often millionaire, there's not much intrmediate points) .Even more when many artists think enjoying live is main thing.I do think so too, I just realized I can't enjoy it if I can't eat ;) . Well, those create the fame for us. ;) And I am not against that way of thinking either.

Many friends(coders) I had, used to tell me: "heck, I prefer making games than coding databases. If i cant survive, i very well can get back to that." The problem is, we dont have that option. Also, other artists choose a less coward position, and just try to win the money as freelance only. But I have tried that before, and sometimes simply new gigs dunnot come, but you have by then aquired the habit of eating food. Reason why these sort of guys are allways for the buck. they need to save as have no stable situation. My situation. As even being inside a company, these , if medium small, tend to live one year as much. Two the lucky ones, if not months. Then, long time of no earning, inbetween. Even more if one specialized in games and no games in teh area.

Artists tend to be driven by emotion, not logic. Many cannot be reasoned with properly. Many have no financial management wisdom

That's quite untrue in a big percentage of cases.

(very different thing is I have found a very small number of programmers not very able to consider too many roads in life, points of view, etc... not as much as when they're programming, curiously ; is not so much a matter of artists being non easy to understand, but that some very few programmers have a hard time to understand other ways of thinking and ways to understand life ;) )

I am an artist, being it 2d/3d for games,oil painter and comic maker, but studied science, and started well maths career. My colleages told me to stay as said I had good possibilities.(I have also coded some simple games in Basic back in the 80s, and enjoied a bit of vb coding later. Had some initiation to C)

I moved away as saw as just math(career) person(no programming, not engineer either) had less possibilities than a design person for getting a job, in my area. I do all sorts of art since allways, but still can think with logic, even ;) .Had a solid knowledge (but that sort of stuff gets forgotten terribly fast. I have not much interest on it anymore, is not practical to keep that now) in technical drawing. (3d and technical drawing kept helping each other to allow better understanding of both matters)

No, I think you cannot generalize. What is more. I have found very clever people and very mature, in the art field.A pitty for those that can't detect them ;)

(btw, excuse my english, is a foreign language for me. )

[terenctb]

That would solve the problem quite nicely. :cool:

Hmmm..sounds like throwing money down the drain..The thing is they have zero savings..the latest gadget or gimmick that catches their eyes...and the money been spent...then at the end of the month ..it's shit...i don't have enough cash..i gotta find some jobs..

Plus it's not that I don't pay them or pay them less...Paying somebody more for doing something they should have been because you paid them what they agreed on seems silly.

My approach right now is to find them a part time job that doesn't require much time. I feel like their mother alot;P

[Desktop Gaming]

As an artist, you'll always want to do your bestReally?

Many of the artists I've worked with seem to have a very loose grasp of the English language. I'll give you an example. While the rest of us would take "deadline" to mean "it needs finishing by X date come hell or high water", an artist takes the exact same word to mean "whenever I can be arsed".

This probably goes some way to explaining why they're broke all the time, too.

[Jason Chong]

Really?

Many of the artists I've worked with seem to have a very loose grasp of the English language. I'll give you an example. While the rest of us would take "deadline" to mean "it needs finishing by X date come hell or high water", an artist takes the exact same word to mean "whenever I can be arsed".

This probably goes some way to explaining why they're broke all the time, too.


Which also goes to explain why I picked up art and do my own artwork and animation. I don't want to rely on external artists because that "whenever I can be arsed" attitude can really slow down the project. I can juggle and churn out work faster for both code and graphics than working as a seperate coder and gfx team.

[Ratboy]

Hmmm..sounds like throwing money down the drain..The thing is they have zero savings..the latest gadget or gimmick that catches their eyes...and the money been spent...then at the end of the month ..it's shit...i don't have enough cash..i gotta find some jobs..

Plus it's not that I don't pay them or pay them less...Paying somebody more for doing something they should have been because you paid them what they agreed on seems silly.

My approach right now is to find them a part time job that doesn't require much time. I feel like their mother alot;P

Many of the artists I've worked with seem to have a very loose grasp of the English language. I'll give you an example. While the rest of us would take "deadline" to mean "it needs finishing by X date come hell or high water", an artist takes the exact same word to mean "whenever I can be arsed".

This probably goes some way to explaining why they're broke all the time, too.I begin to see a pattern here... you're not working with artists, you're working with amateurs who like the idea of being artists but haven't figured out that there's work involved yet. You guys need to trade up. ;)

[Anthony Flack]

I daresay not all artists are good at keeping schedules (although I never missed a deadline; even the ones that were ridiculous to start with). I should say that most artists will tend to want to do their best work, regardless of whether the pay justifies the effort put in. Whether it gets done in good time may be another matter.

Shit, I think I just described why I spent 18 months making Platypus for a $3000 paycheck, which just happened to coincide with the brokest, most desperate point in my life. Er, it's a bad idea. Terrible habit.

[Sysiphus]

Hmmm..sounds like throwing money down the drain..The thing is they have zero savings..the latest gadget or gimmick that catches their eyes...and the money been spent...then at the end of the month ..it's shit...i don't have enough cash..i gotta find some jobs..

Nobody reads my posts. I can understand it. English is not my first language, and I write too long paragraphs. I am game artist, worked at 4 game companies. And at the one I work now I have made five games (the art side of em) in just very few(maybe 3) months(mobile games, but quite complex ones;not the usual(pixel art, but also 3d)). And *many* more working with the other buddy at that place.

I have the gfx done previous to the coder thinking how to do the stuff...I have made java games in 2 days. One of them in just one day.

I save practically *all* money I win and waste only the *very* essential stuff.

Like me, I have met in this hard gfx staff worker life at least two(and one was paranoidly careful with bucks...a bit like me) other guys that do so. If you prefer to believe a topical,(all artist are...or all coders are..) instead of dig a bit more for a better person (like allways, there's the ability to search better)

I'm not *selling* myself here, I work often from 10 to 12 hours a day lately. Can't do other than very small tasks. So not selling anything in this thread. but please, avoid topicals, it goes against your own benefit. ;)

pd: yup, dunno if you're like their mother (funny concept, ;)) , but the fact is ...for doing gfx work for all you, it'd be ideal to find a half time job. If they are pros, they'll be able to bang mountains of work in the remaining hours. Specially as they wont have 10 hours over their backs and in their eyes, to do whatever. is indeed what we all should do.Or at least, in many cases. (every situation is a totally different world)

As I mentioned, some of us have less money just 'cause job availability for artists, at least in an stable way, is not easy to find in many countries/regions. Not cause we throw money or something. I think the last money 'waste' that wasn't for pure surviving was like..perhaps 2 or 3 years ago, and surely no more than 200$...

If those artists you know don't mind fixing computers as a job, funnily, is less tiring(I have done) than do a whole mountain of pixel art; I'd grab a job of that nature half time...but those kind use to be full day and more.

Art teaching is other solution (Anthony) .I have done and is relaxing and rewarding. Not easy to get, though.

When you have done half the assets of 3 games a day, sounds, writting, etc...and reach home at night, is not easy to continue with another load.

[yanuart]

i kinda agree with the notion that some artists are just artists wannabe :) Most kids these days easily jump in the bandwagon of what the world of "creative design" has to offer.
They think that being an artist and do a creative works is very rewarding with an easy lifestyle. Little do they know that every field/business is rewarding and here comes the punch... all of them require hard works (you can even beat talent factor) to get to the top !

I'm not that much of an artists but since I know computer too I teached several classes back then, you'd be suprise to find that probably there's only less than 5% of the students that are really gifted. Most of them are just freeloaders with goals consisting : getting a big contract so they can charge arms and legs for it.

Anyway, I wonder if I should create a thread about : How indie developer always broke :D

[Desktop Gaming]

Anyway, I wonder if I should create a thread about : How indie developer always broke :DIts because our projects are always late cos we're left hanging around for artists. :rolleyes:

[Sparks]

I feel that always puts them in a bad situation, making programmers always the people driving the game, schedules etc? I would love it for once to find an artist driving development.

Maybe I'm generalizing too much...but I would like to figure out how to break this cycle and get da artists back from slavery.

Well, speaking as an artist, and quoting Elastigirl:"Leave all the schedules and driving the game to the programmers ? I don't think so!"
I think it is very motivating for artists to have their share of decisions about the game mechanics and designs, not just a gfx to-do-list to work after.
Maybe sometimes its a lack of motivation because the artist is just considered an "art machine".
Programming is straightforward, go from a to b, else go to c.
Art is a *little* more subtle and since there is not much You can change between 2+1= 3 and 1+2=3, art can have so many facettes, and in art it is even sometimes more stylish and cool not to equal 3 out of 2+1.

[yanuart]

I think it is very motivating for artists to have their share of decisions about the game mechanics and designs, not just a gfx to-do-list to work after.
I don't think you wanna do that cause afterward they'll start charging for royalties :D or worse find out that your game idea sucks subjectively (simply doesn't agree with your gameplay design). I found that being an indie you need to be a dictator instead of mediator. I said it then and I say it again : Democracy simply doesn't work in indie world !! hehe

What you want to do is to explain how their arts will work in the game and let them decide "how their art involves in the game mechanics and designs.. artwise". You need to quickly come up with something working so they can see it. Artists mostly are visual dudes (of course we're talking bout gfx artist here).. words don't get through to them quickly.

[Sparks]

Aye, I see, i was more talking about a team environment, not the usual "hired art" situation.

[ggambett]

Programming is straightforward, go from a to b, else go to c.
Far from the truth... there are infinite ways to accomplish any given task, some brute force, some elegant and clever. This is precisely what separates bad programmers from good programmers.

[Michael Flad]

In my experience artists aren't just that much interested in the projects and that's typically the reason why they eventually became just an "art machine" - it even seems to not be related to money.

Are there any *skilled* artists not only interested in getting a basic list of tasks but are really interested in everything else required to create finished products? Designing, testing, improving, localization ... you name it? I'd be really happy to hear from incarnations of this species (there might be some great opportunity)

[Anthony Flack]

I don't think you wanna do that cause afterward they'll start charging for royalties or worse find out that your game idea sucks subjectively (simply doesn't agree with your gameplay design). I found that being an indie you need to be a dictator instead of mediator.

See, that's the whole problem right there. The artist naturally falls into this subservient "content provider" role. No wonder there aren't more artists available. What incentive do they have?

How would you feel in that position? Let's say there's an art person with a game idea, and they want to hire you to do their programming. They'll pay you a couple of grand up-front, but no royalties and they will call all the shots. Interested?

[Speckled Jim]

That does happen for coders too. I've worked on many projects were I was just cranking something out, no creativity, no say in design, and no financial incentive beyond the agreed price.

[Ricardo C]

See, that's the whole problem right there. The artist naturally falls into this subservient "content provider" role. No wonder there aren't more artists available. What incentive do they have?

How would you feel in that position? Let's say there's an art person with a game idea, and they want to hire you to do their programming. They'll pay you a couple of grand up-front, but no royalties and they will call all the shots. Interested?

Bad analogy, considering how much more complex and lengthy the coding process can be.

I want an artist, not a co-designer.

[Ratboy]

Well, speaking as a professional art machine, I personally prefer to get a list of assets to create and a deadline to finish them by, and I don't have a problem with just providing content. It makes it a lot easier to set a price for the lot, and easier to arrange other paying jobs around yours. It's useful to know the game's general mechanics, but I'm not generally going to tell you how your baby should play unless I see something particularly broken in it.

As to a much earlier comment: DVDs, games, comic books etc. can all be taken off my taxes. They're reference materials, not playing around :cool:

[Savant]

Bad analogy, considering how much more complex and lengthy the coding process can be.

I want an artist, not a co-designer.
That's exactly the attitude that Anthony is talking about. Coders tend to view artists as minions to do their bidding and work for peanuts.

Coding is no more complex or time consuming than producing high quality artwork (2D or 3D).

[Ricardo C]

That's exactly the attitude that Anthony is talking about. Coders tend to view artists as minions to do their bidding and work for peanuts.



I didn't discuss any amounts of money, so I don't see where your "peanuts" comment is coming from. Certainly artists should be well-paid. But that has nothing to do with the role I want them to play in my process.

If I want to farm out art duties, I expect to pay the artist for what I need, nothing more. If I wanted a partner, I'd get one.

Coding is no more complex or time consuming than producing high quality artwork (2D or 3D).

Really? Know any artists who work 16-hour days for months on end one a single project?

[Speckled Jim]

It's not an attitude, it's just a choice. If a coder wants a specific job done, for a price, there's nothing wrong with that. If an artist wants a more creative role, then they need to find one. There will be those that seek a more collaborative effort, and those that simply want a shopping list of assets created to order, both are acceptable.

[Ratboy]

Really? Know any artists who work 16-hour days for months on end one a single project?Quite a few, actually.

[Savant]

Really? Know any artists who work 16-hour days for months on end one a single project?
Yes, many.

[Jason Chong]

Yes, many.


I think that is more related to bad management than anything to do with being either coder or artist.

[Savant]

Kind of beside the point, isn't it? The fact is that artists work just as hard as coders do. Coders aren't special.

[Anthony Flack]

Hey, don't forget I do both, so I know pretty well what is involved and how they compare. I certainly wouldn't say the art guy had the easy job.

People are always talking about how they can't get good, reliable artists to work for them. And the reason is because the jobs on offer are not appealing. We will all (coders and graphics people alike) work for peanuts if we are following our own vision. But if you're looking for contract workers, who get no design input and no royalties, you'll need to pay good money for their labour. As I say, you probably wouldn't do contract programming under the terms most people expect from a contract artist. You just wouldn't want to do it.

Most people work on the assumption that the coder is the natural "boss" of any indie game project. I would like to see more artists not only participate, but take charge...

[Davaris]

There's plenty of artists making games, but they are all useless Flash games.


I would like to see more artists not only participate, but take charge...

I think that is a recipe for Dooooooom! :) The projects that artists flock to on Game Dev are always impossible to complete, because they don't understand what has to be done on the technical side. Of course neither do the idot newbie programmers that make them all sorts of promises...

The major gripe I have about artists is they'll work on useless things like mods or free games, but if they are offered a chance to build their own IP/business they don't want to know. I guess wanting something like that is mainly a programmer thing. Oh well...

In the end I don't really care. I much prefer having full control over my projects and I know the work will get done when I'm doing it. :)

[Fabio]

Did I get it wrong, or this thread seems someway to imply that coding (which doesn't include S.E.U.C.K. style stuff of course) is not a high form of art itself?

[yanuart]

I agree, it's not an attitude, it's a reality that artists must be able to see. It's called "working" for a reason. When was the last time you hear a story of an artists meets a coder, share their ideas, produce a kickass game and live happily ever after ?

There are few things that I've learned and it has become a few rules that I adopt for managing projects :
1. Don't ask for something you can't pay.
2. Don't offer something you won't deliver.

My best approach to artist is to let them choose how their arts works inside the game for example : this is an explosion, what kinda explosion cool enough for it ? yet I won't give an illusion that they can make a shot and really have to draw a line on authorities. It's something that I don't want to deal with in the end.

Anyway, if youre working for "money" then your incentive is "money" and your joy should come from the process of making your craft, deal with it. It ain't nice but that's a fact, if you're looking for something else then don't whine about how you don't make enough money.

ps : No, I never think artists as minions. I've worked on comic/animation studio before and I've seen too many sleep deprivation and malnutrition victims (back then we even made a joke about "Zombie Mode On").
I wish there's a way to elevate their status but it's just a reality that both producers and workers have to deal with.

[Anthony Flack]

Did I get it wrong, or this thread seems someway to imply that coding (which doesn't include S.E.U.C.K. style stuff of course) is not a high form of art itself?
No, you shouldn't infer that. "Art" is just being used as a convenient shorthand for the graphics person's job. Although... errr... perhaps I shouldn't say this... I don't think coding really is an art. It's a craft, for which you can develop good techniques, and ingenious solutions to problems... but in the end it either runs or it doesn't. It's a means to an end. Some may disagree.

Game design, though - that's an art, and a good deal more challenging (to me) than making pretty pictures or coding.

I think that is a recipe for Dooooooom! The projects that artists flock to on Game Dev are always impossible to complete, because they don't understand what has to be done on the technical side. Of course neither do the idot newbie programmers that make them all sorts of promises...

I think that's what you get from anyone who hasn't made a game before, whether they are artists, programmers, or just someone "with a really cool idea". Everyone has to get through that phase. I wonder if programmers ever underestimate the art requirements of a project?

The major gripe I have about artists is they'll work on useless things like mods or free games, but if they are offered a chance to build their own IP/business they don't want to know. I guess wanting something like that is mainly a programmer thing. Oh well...

Again, I think it's not so much an artist thing as an indication that somebody isn't serious. Possibly, most of the serious artists aren't dabbling in making games, as they don't have a particular attraction to videogames like programmers do. They may be making TV commercials or designing soup labels or something. I've done my share of TV commercials.

[KNau]

It should also be noted that there is a difference between a professional game artist and the kind of people who look for gigs on gamedev.net. Just like the coders who post "Help me make an MMORPG" aren't really in the league to get the job done. Stay away from newbies or accept the risks!

If they can't give you a reliable timeline and a reasonable budget before beginning production then they aren't professional artists. If anything a pro artist should be able to point out trouble spots that a coder might miss - the two should complement each other's skills.

[Ricardo C]

Most people work on the assumption that the coder is the natural "boss" of any indie game project. I would like to see more artists not only participate, but take charge...

The designer should be the "boss". It just happens that usually, the designer is also the coder. An artist seeking a more involved role than "content provider" needs to create his own opportunities, just like the coder/designer.

[Sparks]

"Most people work on the assumption that the coder is the natural "boss" of any indie game project. I would like to see more artists not only participate, but take charge..."

I second that.
A programmer taking complete charge of a project can lead to bad GUi design, lame stories etc.
If You are a trained artist, You have certain experiences with GUI design, colour schemes, but even more so with things that might attract audiences, like gameplay, sound design, timing and so on.
Good examples for artist driven games are the Rayman games, Prince of Persia, Beyond Good and Evil...Michel Ancel is the designer behind these titles.
I would say that programmers are good at solving technical problems, which results in giving the designers (writers, artists, sound creators) the ultimate freedom to create their vision on screen.
Its not like the code of a program attracts the gamers, its the "front end" that the artists create that turn code into entertainment.The artists create the "whoa, cool!"-factor, based on the freedom the programmers achieve for them.
Its like the coders are the riflemen, and the artists are the cavalry.
Or the coders are the delta team, and the artists are the marines.
What would the awesome technique of the Unreal 3 engine be without the gorgeous graphics that demonstrate the power ?
Of course, if You hire for art its always a bit different, but You should definitly not be stubborn enough to ignore Your artists recommendations when it comes to game design and GUI.
No wonder many artists just work with a to-do-list, probably one or the other has felt like "that's not the best way to solve that issue, but its on the list and I only do what I am paid for".
But then there is deadlines, too, artists often have that tendancy to tweak ad infinitum, because eventually it comes back to: You don't see the faults in the code, but You spot all the flaws of bad graphics.
And don't get me started on those crunchtimes, where 12-14 hour days are normal...thats hard for both artists and coders alike !

[Sparks]

I think that's what you get from anyone who hasn't made a game before, whether they are artists, programmers, or just someone "with a really cool idea". Everyone has to get through that phase. I wonder if programmers ever underestimate the art requirements of a project?



Maybe not the amount, but definitly the time required to create some nice art.
At the company I used to work, my boss couldn't understand it would take me 12 hours to model, unwrap and texture a character, he was the manager guy, and his coding minion always came up with "fabulous" ideas that would require several days to turn into art on screen.
What many people don't consider is all the little technical things that take time, creating seamless tiles for various tasks, creating ornaments, creating buttons with different states (greyed out, mouseover, clicked...), creating tiny animations (which need to be made of models, textures, lighting) etc.
Its obvious that people see a finished screen of say Battle for middleearth and think its an afternoons work.They don't see the many interations that were required to get to that final style and appearance.

[yanuart]

People should do what their best at and stop arguing about coder vs artist. It's like a lame child story about tools in toolbox arguing who's the most valuable of them all :D
A coder can make a good designer as much as an artists can. Many old games were designed by coder or at least someone with computing background that's why I always feel like the games back then have the feeling that it's for a computer guy like me.

[Davaris]

People should do what their best at and stop arguing about coder vs artist. It's like a lame child story about tools in toolbox arguing who's the most valuable of them all

Fights between coders and artists have been going on as long as there have been computer games. We're like cats and dogs. ;)

It should also be noted that there is a difference between a professional game artist and the kind of people who look for gigs on gamedev.net. Just like the coders who post "Help me make an MMORPG" aren't really in the league to get the job done. Stay away from newbies or accept the risks!

Yeah the problem is none of them want to work on small projects that can be completed. A friend of mine has 10 years as a pro game artist has joined a group that is making a game out of their bedroom and it will compete with 10-15 million dollar games. Of course they have no backers with actuall cash. La! La! La! We're livin in fantasy land! :)

As for the poster above saying artists would automatically make better designers, thats nonsense. All they would make is games that are beautiful but boring. I'd rather work with a specialist designer than a wanna be programmer-designer or artist-designer any day.

[Sparks]

"Specialist" designers are a myth.
Either You grow to be a game designer through the coding or art path, or You don't.
People who are game designers and never were artists, coders or pen-and-paper designers usually suck as much as "Game design" courses at schools.

[yanuart]

People who are game designers and never were artists, coders or pen-and-paper designers usually suck as much as "Game design" courses at schools.
Right on ! It's so funny to read these days some kid post in a forum : "I want to make game but I can't draw nor code but I can design the game. Now who wants to join me ?"

[Robert Cummings]

I've worked as an artist for over 10 years, art is harder than code. And it always will be the harder job.
Now as the bar for quality art is set higher and higher, and as code frameworks lessen the burden of programming a game, this gulf is wider still.

If any programmer here ever said "oh I can't draw", please realise that artists can't draw either. Its not magical, its VERY HARD WORK.

Also, musicians charge the earth for good music. Don't hear much complaining from there do I? Yet you cannot play the game without graphics and you can play it without sound.

[Anthony Flack]

I think musicians actually operate on a slightly different level. To an extent, a musician could just happily plug away, making various music tracks of whatever sort they feel like, following their own fancy and building up a collection of tracks which they can then sell on to whoever wants them.

If you have a medievel game, and someone has some medievel music they've made, you can generally just stick them together pretty successfully, without any modification. Of course, it's nice if the musician is more directly involved, but it can certainly be done that way.

[yanuart]

I've worked as an artist for over 10 years, art is harder than code. And it always will be the harder job.
This is very subjective statement. Both art and code can be as hard as it can be or as easy as it can be. It depends on how good you are at the subject and of course what you're trying to make.
Engines and modular programming makes a coder life easier as much as digital art tools makes an artists life easier too :D

[Anthony Flack]

I actually find it hard to know whether I'm doing art or coding, a lot of the time. I was trying to think about whether I spent more time doing art or code, and it's hard to define.

I spent a good six weeks of full-time work animating my main character. That's definitely art time. I wrote a level designer, collision detection routines and enemy AI. That's definitely code time. But it seems like the most time-consuming thing is writing code to improve some detail of the display - coding animations and effects, GUI elements, transitions and other visual details - is that art or code? When I'm assembling levels in the level designer (another big job), is that art or design? A bit of both I guess, although most of the time-consuming stuff is cosmetic. But it's hard to say... most of the time I am using code to generate pictures...

[nikolas]

Also, musicians charge the earth for good music. Don't hear much complaining from there do I? Yet you cannot play the game without graphics and you can play it without sound.
How do you define good music? I'd like to know? And how do you define 'the earth' also? Mostly for a refference to my own fees :D

I'll put art along with music (rather music along with art).

Especially musicians (and I guess lots of artists) are mostly freelancers and work alone (take for example Morrowind. 50 people team, 1 composer!) And usually artists daydream alot. It takes much effort to manage yourself and this is what managers do, but after you have some money. :/

I, personally, as a composer, don't just composer and wait for someone to get interested for my music. I find that working for a specific game takes effort and really good communication with the game developer, and I have spent countless (above 10 that is :D) chatting away with a game developer about the game and the games' world and the art and everything...

BTW, good music, for me would mean good production and this costs the earth for the composer to accomplish. A decent studio would mean something like 20,000 $ (at least), and if you're talkiong about epic fantasy music then a real orchestra would be another 5,000$. That's why maybe it costs the earth for a film soundtrack... :/

[Emmanuel]

Unless you're anal-retentive or attempt to do everything from the OS up yourself, programming a game is probably easier than making its graphics (although it is an art form in itself). Both activities are significantly easier than design. Our artist gives major input on the game design, is "god" on his work -- he has the final cut -- and has always gotten his share of the sales, which overall leads to a much better game all around as everybody involved is keen to have a selling title. You can't expect to pay someone $500 and get traction for your project from the artist, especially in today's environment of great production values across the board :)

Best regards,
Emmanuel

[yanuart]

Is it just me or I'm getting a notion that all indiegame developers are just making 2d match-3 games to come up with the opinion that doing art is harder than coding ?
Of course if that's the case then you're right, coding is easier than making arts.

[Emmanuel]

You'd be surprised at how non-trivial even a match-3 game is, if you want it to be balanced, flow well, assist the player, etc.

best regards,
Emmanuel

[yanuart]

Of course, that's my point. Arguing about which is more valuable/harder is silly. It depends on what you're trying to make. For a game that's heavy on the art and design, of course doing art is harder or at least requires a bigger amount of work than to code the game.
For my previous game, I think coding part is harder than it's art simply because my game doesn't rely on arts or looks that much (which is probably why it doesn't sell so well hah).

[zoombapup]

Wow what a very interesting and completely usleless argument this has devolved into :)

For what its worth, my take is that ANYONE can be the visionholder and driving force behind a game as long as the team producing it have a clear vision and direction and dont have lots of internal politics.

Certainly I've worked with plenty of artists who didnt have a clue about game design, similar with coders. Its not like there is some magical art gene that makes you a good designer.

I do think there is a lack of artist-designer-team leader types for whatever reason. One of the best guys I've ever known as a designer was also an artist and was definitly a strong team leader, so it can certainly happen.

Having said that, we've had a hell of a time with artists as contractors and team mates as indies. It just seems that when youre on the low end of the pay scale, the commitment really doesnt seem to be there from artists. We always wanted artists as partners, hell, even once or twice we found some people we thought were up for that sort of thing, but usually things fall flat after they see we arent capable of funding them. Even though we are all putting in our own money, artists just dont seem to have the same "lets pool our effort" mentality.

I know thats a generalism and wont apply to everyone, but it is my experience with a good number of artists. Most of them seem to prefer a "give me a list of models and XXX dollars and I'll produce things". Usually the XXX dollars is too high :)

If any artists are reading this and want some open minded coders as partners, get in touch. We are always interested in hearing from good people who can do thier job and work as part of the team.

Ok, shameless plugging over.

[Davaris]

Even though we are all putting in our own money, artists just dont seem to have the same "lets pool our effort" mentality.

Its nice to know someone else has had the same depressing experiences I've had. There's no point complaining about it though, artists and programmers are like apples and oranges. ;) My advice to you is to learn to do as much as you can yourself. You'll be a lot happier in the long run.

[Sysiphus]

hmm..pretty non fair way of seing.

They wont put all same effort you make for your own project, your baby, which is as is, 'cause is the way you love it, not his. Besides, he gets a fixed up front (and you say low payment in your case?) while, perhaps you don't have a sure earning, but if you get success, you will win way more.

Oh, yes, I have worked those 16 hours, and more. During exactly 8 months. And ended the freaking 3 projects in time.

And I have several friends of suffering that do so to.

I have seen at companies how artists we work just as hard as you all. And more than several coders, quite a number that I have been able to know and work with.

Please distingish very well each one's capacity to work hard of the case which depends on what you are offering, and so, what the other person is logically answering according to that offer.

BTW, in distance gigs, where you have not the ability to meet with a cofee or pizza and a note book and pencils, I rather prefer a solid list of assets, not a not-yet-formed idea. I haveworked building ideas, but whenever I have *equal* oportunities that the ideas art-related to get in. If not, I just execute that list.And teh freaking better I can. Even more, it tells you a lot of the coder/person when knows quite well, and how he wants the graphics, demonstrating so he has experience and knows the stuff.

It's too easy to fall into the "artist are so" topical sayings. In the end, is only worse for you..

Oh, and one thing more I also see unfair...An artist works is something EVERYONE seems to be able to put down...Why? is visual. And for some weird reason, everyone thinks has the knowledge and authority to know when a graphic is bad. In a company a graphic is seen since meters in distance. And I have seen some boss-coder (rarely artists are the big bosses) kill a graphic from that distance! While you wont hear often an artist criticize the way you make your coding. Among other things, we never see it. And mostly if we would say something would get a laugh of the coder. Well, trust me, you in majority have same idea about graphics, in comparison. But I don't laugh. And when sometimes one dares to say something about playability, as been in too many game projects, heck, rarely opinion is considered...comes from an artsit after all...in my latest company where worked at, was treated this way; funnily the guys often ended how I was recommending, but secretly and sometimes way later on, after realizing by every possible way the game had problems in that manner...

Ok, I don't mind that status. No good, but I guess I have learnt to live with it. But at least, no more artists topicals...The ppl you find for a project, be it a coder or gfx person, is rarely a good deal. In those rare occassions, you have a good collaborator. Is not usual, just that. Be it coder or artist. That's real life. Also, consider what i mentioned; each one's economical/social situation is what in most cases decides how much an artist can do in certain moment.

[Anthony Flack]

I wonder if it's because the artists aren't as biased towards computer projects, and so may be willing to mess about with some game graphics, but may not commit whole-heartedly because they may still be messing about with all kinds of other art projects at the same time.

I also wonder if it's because the artists have a certain instinctive mistrust of projects that they don't have control over.

I'm just speculating here - but the last time I made some graphics for someone else (for a freeware project), I did my bit on time as requested, and as far as I know nothing more ever happened. I certainly never saw a working prototype with my nice animations running.

And that's another point - it may be because you're all programmers, with "unreliable artist" stories to tell. As an artist, I have "unreliable programmer" stories. Not many, though, because I took the neccessary steps.

[JoeMaru]

I wanted to chime in and just call bullshit on this whole thread. This whole 'artists vs. programmers' thing, and the generalization of 'artists' as being a certain way is just lame. I certainly have not had the same experience working with the artists I work with, and have not experienced this in the professional world.

Par for the course, this sort of gross generalization and rampant programmer elitism is what I have come to expect of this forum, and is just one of the reasons I have pretty much stopped particiapting here on a regular basis.

As for the more elightened posting in this thread, I applaud your comments. The hardest part of making a game is design. A good designer has to be a good team leader and holder of the vision. I do not see this ability as a trait exclusive to coders. Some of the best designers and producers I know that have good design instincts are non coders.

I personally have no problem finding either talented artists or coders to work with, and I have not had the problem of commitment that many of you have had.

I do approach things a little differnetly than most. I take like a year to get to know an artist before I would ever dream of letting them get near the art of a game on a schedule. For me, it is a process of weeding out. Some don't have the commitment, some cannot commit, and some I just don't jive with. This is not exclusive to artists.. I do the same thing with coders.

As for the observation that started this thread, most of the artists I know and work with are not always broke. Most of the artists I work with will do work for money. If they beleive in the project, and have a say in how it turns out, they will work for free for the joy of it. If they are depending on someone else to produce something 'for a share of profits' they will be more skeptical. Every artists I personally know has been burned by producing art for some 'thing' that has not panned out and whose completion is totally out of their control.

If you treat an artist as a commodity, you will be paying for the good ones. If you treat them as a commodity and cannot pay, you will get amateurs and moody artsy types that live on the fringe.

anyway, this gross generalization of artists just annoyed the hell out of me. Artists (and coders, and designers, and <insert role here> ) are just people, and their behaviors, attitudes, and financial status reflect a broad specturm of a cross section of society.

[electronicStar]

I agree, some coders' characterization of artists are just lame, it sound like they are talking about children. That's ridiculous.
As Sysiphus said, everybody feel they can comment on the art while the code is more difficult to assess.
The problem with contracted artists is that most of the time they don't have enough decision power in the creative process.
That and they generally don't get a share in the eventual success of the game either.
That explains why they don't feel motivated.
The solution would be to establish a relation of trust with an artist, but that's not always an available option.

[impossible]

I've been on both sides, artist for unreliable programmer and programmer for unreliable artist. Actually I've never been a programmer for a unreliable artist because I can't find any artists to work with, but just looking for artists has turned up a lot of unreliable results.

Basically either everyone involved has to believe in the project, be motivated, and have a decent possibility of rewards (no, 1% royalties on a indie game that will sell 500 copies max), or you have to just contract people and pay them outright, which means you're taking a bigger risk but don't have to worry (as much) about people flaking out or not being motivated.

I think it is an issue of programming being seen as the most valuable aspect of game creation and art being secondary, even though art is often the deciding factor of a games sales. Of course... with great art and no code you don't have a game at all, but with almost no art, good design, and working code you can have a pretty fun game, so there is some truth in that.

[Applewood]

You'd be surprised at how non-trivial even a match-3 game is, if you want it to be balanced, flow well, assist the player, etc.
It's totally trivial. A match-3 game is all about polish and that's more design flare and attention to detail than programming talent. So in this case it's true that art is probably harder than code - the programmer is more being a "game designer" than a coder imo - you should be able to knock the actual code out without even thinking about it. It doesn't really get any easier than this.

If you want to persist in this pointless artist vs coder crap, lets at least compare apples with oranges instead of apples with wednesday. Let's go for beautiful background screens vs implementing an incompressible fluid dynamics system that can run across a dataset big enough for modelling a massive lake that will have rigidbody submarines in it (ie one that reacts to the sub in 3D, not just on the surface). If you had to contract this out, which do you think you'd find first ?

Whenever these arguments kick off, I always cite the fact that a game can go out with unfinished art, but it can't go out with unfinished code. The programmer is boss as he's the only one that absolutely must do his job well for there to be a product at all. That said, the artist is still of equal importance in the real world as a game will still suffer with bad art even if the code is good.

[Applewood]

I second that. A programmer taking complete charge of a project can lead to bad GUi design, lame stories etc.

Only if he's a bad project manager. GUI design isn't a coding job so he should delegate that to someone who can do it well.

A programmer should be in overall charge of development as at the end of the day he's the only guy on the project that knows exactly what can and can't be done. Of the things that can, he's still got to judge whether it's time well spent. That doesn't mean he should be making creative decisions about level design etc though - that should go to whoever is best at it and that's usually an artist/designer type. The programmer should sit in on that meeting saying "yes", "no" and "maybe" to steer the meeting along, but if he has no design flare, should otherwise keep his peace.

[Davaris]

I wanted to chime in and just call bullshit on this whole thread. This whole 'artists vs. programmers' thing, and the generalization of 'artists' as being a certain way is just lame. I certainly have not had the same experience working with the artists I work with, and have not experienced this in the professional world.

We're talking about something completely different here. We're talking about teaming up with other people to make games on a shoe string or no string budget. You're talking about projects with big $$$ behind them.

Whenever I've put money down I've always got what I paid for from an artist because I hired the best I could afford and checked their references. However when I've attempted to team up with one to build a business the answer has always been no dice.

Most of the people here are driven to make games regardless of whether or not they make money and they would like to team up with someone who has a similar attitude (sort of like starting a rock and roll band). Unfortunately most artists have a money up front mindset and you need a build a business mindset (with lots of unpaid effort) to succeed as an Indie.

Anyway its no skin off my nose. I've learned to do most art things my self anyway. Does that make me an artist? ;)

[Sysiphus]

Let's go for beautiful background screens vs implementing an incompressible fluid dynamics system that can run across a dataset big enough for modelling a massive lake that will have rigidbody submarines in it (ie one that reacts to the sub in 3D, not just on the surface). If you had to contract this out, which do you think you'd find first ?

if you refer to the coding system to control the 3d fluid, then is not good comparison either. Technically there are really complex graphic tasks. For an artist, making for example normal maps of a well worked organic model of today, means a several millions polies model, you can take HUGE time to make it. Then the complex pipeline(among other things, have and master Zbrush or similar tool) to bake it as normal map, and also make around th ehi res model a mid pol or low pol one that works well with the whole thing. Count on these models often are expected to have speculars, and other complex materials, shaders, etc...You can take a month full time just to make and rig the character...

Yup, this would be a non indie sort of stuff, in fact, 3d cards of casual gamers wont eat that...but probably a very complex 3d fluids system isn't either the usual in shareware games...For what I have seen.

If you were referring to art with that of fluids... there I wouldn't understand the point..

there are complexities, and very tedious labours in making graphics; even for casual games. It allways depends, of course.

Don't think artists have an special aim to be bosses of the project or something. Probably just a logical respect is enough. I meant, if is your project and how you want it, and payment is in the low budget, don't expect the 7th wonder, but a good quality, functional work. If pay better, the guy rise the hours to it, as is what it costs him/her, anyway.

I'm quite ok with taking an assets list and just execute. Indeed I love when they specify me well what they want. If I am asked my criteria (rarely) then I have way enough experience and knowledge to give an advice, or do without asking, if very clearly specified so (if not is dangerous) .I work so in every company, is where I learnt this, and doing it at hi speed.heck, I'm sure there must be a lot of guys like me. IMO, the guy at company, games or design, comes home already too tired to acept a gig.

I am indeed in that sort of deal with a very good friend. I wouldn't do with another which I knew less than him. All stuff there is 50%, and decisions are taken same way. I've done succesfully full projects this way. Actually I have ended right now...like 4 projects this way. Each one in a different way, but did so.
Sorry to break your stats again ;)
the facts are...when what one earns is so litlle, so much risk, and so much unemployement, you simply can't wait much...But here I have seen several great artists, that have very good fame here. Chad, Adrian, etc...

[JoeMaru]

We're talking about something completely different here. We're talking about teaming up with other people to make games on a shoe string or no string budget. You're talking about projects with big $$$ behind them.

sorry.. you got it wrong there. Although I did my time in the big industry, I also did my time as a no money indie (2001-2005). Sorry you have had bad experiences, but my experience has been quite the opposite.

If you have trouble finding artists to team up with, it might be worth your while to examine your attitude toward artists.

The generalization just does not fit. I know both artists and programmers who have the right mindset (and a bunch that don't) Just because you have not met up with one yet does not mean they don't exist, and it does not mean that, as a general rule, artists are more 'money up front' type of people.

[Farmergnome]

Damn those arabs! always blowing shit up!

Stereotypes are fun aren't they!

[gpetersz]

Damn those arabs! always blowing shit up!

Stereotypes are fun aren't they!

I just second this and agree with everything JoeMaru's said.
Whenever somebody start to complain about somebody else (or "somebodies" as a group) then I always think of: "hey, you should look into yourself first, is there everything OK?"