I think I really screwed up...

[george]

Yes, I believe I screwed up royally! So I started this indie business when I was about 16 years old, I am now 22 going on 23. Back then it was sure easy to make $1k, $2k, $3k a month from selling amature shareware from an amature website from some amature kid as myself. Common sense dictates things will get better as time goes by... I will become a better coder and a better business man, therefore I will make more money. Oh boy how wrong was I... Times have changed and this business is tougher than ever.

I skipped College to chase my "dream" of being an indie developer, and rightly so, I was doing good when I started. Shit, a kid making at least $1,000 a month selling software on the Internet while he was sleepng, or while he was sitting in history class?! It was great!

But now I feel I've tried everything I can, with no real success, and I cannot go on like this. SO WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW? I NEED A JOB / INCOME.

I've never had a job in my life! I've always worked for myself being an indie developer. I have no College education. I have no job references. NOTHING.

Finding a programming job is hard enough as it is with a degree, so having no degree? forget about it... I am thinking of a job that incorporates my skills and experience as a software developer... Maybe something like a technical writer for a software company (code manuals, etc.), Software Tester, etc. I have no idea. I don't want to be indie anymore. I don't want to do something like webdesign (which I have done recently, but how many $700 websites can you design in a month?). Basically, I have no idea what to do. Ideally, I would like to do something with programming (software or games), or maybe something else technical, like a sys admin or something.

I'm terribly lost and depressed. Hey kids, no matter what, stay in school. :( ... straight from the horse's mouth... What can I do? What jobs are available? Dear God...

[george]

p.s. or if there are any other indie opportunities...

[Tom Gilleland]

Contact those guys at FuelGames that have been posting on this board. Check all the other boards, ask around, network, contact everybody. Go meet people in person, be bold.

College degrees carry more importance in big corporations and other fields than in programming. Now I'm NOT saying that anyone should skip their college programming degree, but this industry does give you a little more leeway. Having Completed Products that you can show is quite valuable. And if you have to relocate to bumfck canada or somewhere cold like that then so be it. ;) Also, take a bad job at some software company and prove yourself and work your way up. A lot of them downsize everyone after a year or so anyway, but then you have some more contacts and experience. You might even fall into a booming startup.

Or even better yet, just go back to school you're only 23. You're still a pup! The best scenario would be get a junior programming job, and take classes on the side. Just do it, there's no excuses if you really want it!

Tom

[Jonas]

Well there is certainly a lot of folks making NON game software. The ASP is full of folks making a living making applications (some are games), in a way that isn't so diffrent that being a Indie game developer.

So you might drop 100 bucks to join the ASP for a year, to learn from the folks that have been around the block more than few times in areas much more broad than games.


That said, if you want to stay in games, maybe you could do some outsource work. Find your strength, and sell that to folks.

The other thing to keep in mind, is just remember that you've had success in the past, you are an Indie, and that doesn't have to mean games. It means that you have that guerrilla-like know how to make stuff happen. It could be a shaved Ice stand, computer repair, whatever. The learning process will add to your growth as a business person.

Just promise me that you do something that you find intreageing don't settle for flipping burgers ( well unless you like that) :)

[Christian]

Im 23 too and im still in school, why dont you go back?, i still live with my parents, dont you have anyone to be your sponsor?, and im also a independent graphic design freelancer, im sure you can do some freelancing too, but, we need to know what do you know, what can you do? exactly?, and, what went wrong? why you cant keep beign indie if you where doing right?.

[ggambett]

I think you're far from lost! You don't have job references? Bullshit! You've been demonstrating several highly valued characteristics to potentian employers : you get things done, you can take calculated risks, you know both the engineering and the marketing side of software, you're self motivated, you're not just a guy with a diploma, you learn and adapt, and let me say it again, you get things done.

You have no idea how invaluable knowing that is for an employer - I've been through this very recently. The guy I ended up hiring as a programmer hasn't finished his degree and had never touched C++ before, but he had three vital characteristics : 1) I can trust him; 2) He's willing to learn; 3) He works, he does things. I believe almost everything else derives from these three characteristics.

Now don't get me wrong, I do think a degree is valuable, but mostly because it indirectly proves you have the three features I mentioned above. Of course it also teaches you the basics, but it essentially proves you can stick around for 5 years, have discipline, and work. A degree is one way to prove that, but it doesn't have to be the only way - create a killer resume, improve your online presence, include a CD with stuff worth showing, whatever you need to convey you can do the job. Think like a showman, sell yourself, and let your work speak for you. Even though I have an engineering degree, that has always been my philosophy, because many people have engineering degrees, but only I am myself. Sell yourself, your unique mix of skills, not a cookie-cutter degree.

At your age you still have time to fail and reinvent yourself a couple times. That's what I thought when I quit my job to dedicate full time to Mystery Studio - I was 23 at the time too. Good luck and keep a positive attitude!

[Ryan Clark]

Hi george.

I can't see any links to your site/games in your profile... perhaps there are some things you can do to make your indie business more profitable? Is it really time to give up?

[Sakura Games]

Yes is weird giving suggestions or just even talking to someone about his products, without even knowing them :D

[jmc]

Alternatives:

-clone the top 10 list of the portal and portalize your game ( but you'd need a ultra polished clone else don't expect to make more than 200$ )

-bundle your games with spyware/adware ( seems a successful strategy that a couple of small and big companies are using to get income fast )


Jmc.

[Gilzu]

-bundle your games with spyware/adware ( seems a successful strategy that a couple of small and big companies are using to get income fast )

Dont fall into the dark side, young jedi...

[Jay_Kyburz]

Dude,

If you've really been releasing indie games that sell 2 or 3k a month you could get a job in the real games industry no problems at all. We are starved for programmers and need talent.

I know several people with no college degree and we often hire people based on demo apps alone. At the very least, you could sit down and take a few months to write some awesome demo application.

Email me if you want to chat more about it.

Jay

[vjvj]

Dude if you've been working on indie games that should be plenty of experience to get a job. Have some demos and source code ready to show (maybe make a website or something, too).

I don't have a college degree and have never once been asked about it. And I've worked at many game companies, both startups and monolithic corporations. It's rare that people your age have BOTH academic background and real world experience. Given the choice, the latter is typically preferable in this industry.

In other words, you should be fine!

[Ricardo C]

I think you're far from lost! You don't have job references? Bullshit! You've been demonstrating several highly valued characteristics to potentian employers : you get things done, you can take calculated risks, you know both the engineering and the marketing side of software, you're self motivated, you're not just a guy with a diploma, you learn and adapt, and let me say it again, you get things done.

Exactly! You've owned and operated your own business for close to a decade, and you're under 25. That's all the resumé you need, my friend.

[Jamie W]

Hi George,

I'm feeling a bit like I screwed up myself too, and I've been at it a little longer than you, but if you want the benefit of my experience, you're very welcome to it. I hope it's of some use to you.

I've found indie game development, to be challenging in the extreme. It's not so much the technical challenge, of putting a game together ...

It's more, the not having a regular stream of income, the uncertainly, and the effect this has on your life. It can leave you feeling insecure, unwilling to make long term future plans, anxious about the future. This really is not very good for your health, your happiness and you sanity.

I've lost count of the times I've developed games and technologies that have gone nowhere, just in the bin. All the time and effort you put in, and you get nothing back, you start to equate 'hard_work' with 'waste_of_time'. So right now, I feel very reluctant to take any risk, with any new game project. I think that's only wise.

You certainly need to be extremely certain about what you're doing, and take the time to have a good long think about where you're going and what you want to achieve. Sometimes the indirect route is the best.

Maybe some time, working for a game development company would be a good thing for you, an opportunity to further develop your skills and also meet people, network, and make friends?

One thing is for sure, trying to do it *all* by yourself, is incredibly hard.

[george]

wow guys thanks for your support, i really appreciate it...

let me clarify a few things. i have been working on apps for the last 6 years, i left games long ago. before i was making those figures of $1k+ a month, now i am struggling to barely make anything (around $500.00). my software products are OK but nothing amazing (obviously). i really don't want to post a link to my current software, because i don't want to potentially ruin my products' reputation. imagine someone searching for a review for my software and they happen upon this forum thread?! not a good thing.

but i started out with games programming. i made my first "real" game when i was about 16 years old, in the year 2000. for the hell of it, i am posting a the game for you guys to download and try out. it is a nibbles clone, complete with bombs, lava, moving walls, teleporters, etc. :)

here is the screenshot: http://home.comcast.net/~ageorgie/screenshot.gif

here is the zip file: http://home.comcast.net/~ageorgie/nibblerfull.zip (around 1.3 MB)

this was SUPPOSED to be published by Xtreme Games as a value/game pack. of course that never happened :( at the time, Andre Lamothe was getting his assed sued by Hasbro, and that pretty much killed the business for people like me.

anyway, i'm curious to know what you guys think about my work. like i said, this was my frist real game. it was made in c++. i haven't done games in a LONG LONG time. but i have always been interested in getting back into it, especially games for kids, casual, etc.

[Jack Norton]

let me clarify a few things. i have been working on apps for the last 6 years, i left games long ago. before i was making those figures of $1k+ a month, now i am struggling to barely make anything (around $500.00).
then I don't understand :)
You're making shareware apps now and you don't earn much even with them? what's the problem with games old of 5-6 years not selling anymore (I think is normal!!)
$500 a month isn't a bad result anyway, of course you could have 10 games out, still isn't something so bad!

[arcadetown]

Keep at it, make some better games, etc. Put up a website showcasing your work, that's great for prospective employers. #1 rule, never ever quit!

Funny I think my biggest mistake was getting a degree. Techincally it was mostly worthless, character building was good. Could've been getting options in some late 80s startup instead. Out of scores of IT jobs I've had think one actually confirmed my degree. Thus, smear the bs to land a job as long as you can back it up. Business 101... be your own saleman.

[svero]

I think the original post is a reflection of what a lot of people who were making money in shareware are feeling today. It's not as easy to make money selling games online as it was a few years back. I'm not sure about utilities as that's not my market.. but that doesn't seem to have taken the same path.

I remember commenting many times on how the distribution online games was being tied up and that there were less and less free alternatives for exposure. Some people disagreed then and said that the emergence of big online game portals wasn't all that important etc..., but I think more and more developers are echoing my original view now and it's become a concern for many in the industry who are worried that their dependence on 3rd party publishing and marketing puts them at risk.

Smaller percentages from publishers, less routes for guerilla marketing, increasing game budgets, more competition for traffic, more games, more clones, alternate industry pressures like licensed titles etc... In many ways it's MUCH tougher today than it was 4-5 yrs ago. And I suspect the bubble to make quick money through big portals with simple casual titles is pretty much over now as well.

As business models go I'm more interested in what Cliffski is doing, sites like shorthike.com, caravel etc... These guys probably aren't bringing in near the same kind of cash that a big casual hit can make, but I think if they're in a position to build slowly and hold onto a steady revenue stream then they're in less danger of market changes killing off their business than a company that relies entirely on 3rd party publishing for income. That's especially true if the company has a few people on staff and an office, expenses etc...

[baegsi]

I agree with the others: you have still all options left. Go back to school and find some part-time work (which should be no problem as a student). Then get some real work experience and learn from others. Later, you'll probably go back to self-employment anyway.

I think the problem with indie games is that games are a tough market and that indie game developers are more developers than business people. There should always be ways to make money with games, however, if you're more interested in running a good business, you probably won't start developing games. That's at least my experience.

Be patient and get as much experience as possible and you will see.

[berserker]

As business models go I'm more interested in what Cliffski is doing, sites like shorthike.com, caravel etc... These guys probably aren't bringing in near the same kind of cash that a big casual hit can make, but I think if they're in a position to build slowly and hold onto a steady revenue stream then they're in less danger of market changes killing off their business than a company that relies entirely on 3rd party publishing for income. That's especially true if the company has a few people on staff and an office, expenses etc...

Why don't you do both to diversify risks? Make one portal-friendly title and another totally different. This way you won't end up putting all eggs into same basket.

[svero]

I think doing both is ok if you have the resources to do both. I'd view it as making money every way you possibly can with what you have. But sometimes you don't necessarily have the choice, or rather you have to make a choice. Take cliff as an example. If he were to make a casual game that's of the quality the current market demands he'd have to spend 6-8 months away from doing the strategy stuff he's focused on... so maybe 50/50 isn't really all that great if you end up with 2 half efforts instead of 1 good one. The problem with the portal model for developers is that, unless we have a real hit title where maybe the sequel ip is worth a lot or we can turn sales money into funds to finance other aspects of our business, we're essentially selling man hours to them. I give you 6 months of man hours and you sell my game and give me money. But then we just have money for work, but no real business built up aside from the IP (if you havent sold it) which is of dubious worth, and some code, also not worth a whole lot. I think it's probably good to look at your business from the eye of a buyer. If I were to come along with some cash and I wanted to buy a business, what would your site/business be worth to me as an investor. I think often indie businesses aren't worth much more than the people running them. Remove the developer and you've lost the business.

[berserker]

Obviously this is not an option for one-man-army developer but if you have resources it's viable model which I am trying to follow. We are having great direct sales of Clash'N Slash while it wasn't a hit on portals but still we have several other portal games in development as well as not so portal friendly action game. This way I don't think I will go out of business if portal-oriented games bring me no money. On the other side while portals are hit or miss business you can make 10x or even 100x if you have a big hit. I doubt you will become a millionaire making niche games.

If you are familiar with marketing terms I would say in general niche games are problem children with potential to turn into cash cows or dogs, while casual games usually more like cash cows with potential to turn into stars.

[Sysiphus]

Actually, somewhere I read life is the very personal way of each one to take the wrong way ;) (his/her very own way for making the mistake)

More or less.

What is better than what? freaking close to no people know a way before walking over it. And even to identical ways, are not equal. And that can be crucial.

But...If the decission was thought, for the time, data, motivation and knowledge of the situation then, is not so much of a mistake, but just more about you can't guess the future. Even less when being young.

I have done the opposite way...Loads of studies, career, master, courses, loads of others studies...all...to end up very hardly gettig into standard jobs or game jobs...being it a nightmare after the other (maybe due to where I live) And now often I find my self just regretting not have get into a direct way of earning money like you did, since young. And no clues if that would have for sure been better; life is like pool game. Dunno in your place, but in mine, academic education is not that much an advantage for earning bucks. For this, is learning how to earn them. I know one man almost no knowledge on how to read and write at basic skills,(he couldnt have posted here, nor surely even conect to inet) and has a huge company. If it's a kind of feel about cultural enrichment missing, then, you can start it slowly at anytime, just reading books in freetime.

Lol, a friend and I are trying to get into shareware world, as we made the opposite way, and maybe we are in just the opposite line of thought...Too much studies, no good...Unless is related with banks, finances, whatever... ;)

Also, I had thought during years a game job would be a dream come true. And it can easily become the worst hell. And an elegant and easy way of new exploit kind of job with the average joe as a victim; a passionate worker is easier to abuse.And when there's a mass of them, more, and if most of those tend to think they must be slaves by definition, the whole thing has no solution. To me that indy world is the only sensible way to be doing games. But that's my opinion, usually not shared by others...unless they made my very same route. (which has a low probability)

So, to me, everything is open for you. Think well the strategy, and like Svero says, is better to hit strongly and hit with one weapon. You may try other small vias, but focus most of your strenght in a route you can guess by solid clues you have good oprtunity there. Some risk is needed to be taken, but try to minimize it.

My 2 cents (you can throw them to the bin)

[gosub]

You won't be happy being a technical writer or a tester. Do whatever you need to do to get a CSC degree. Once you have the degree (but only if you're good, and it's what you actually want to do), it's very easy to get a high paying job. Skip games*, and go for embedded systems.

-Jeremy

* Make games in your spare time.

[Escapee]

My uncle has an education level equals to a primary school student. He learned his business skill through networking with others . He failed many times initially when he get started but now he is one filthy rich guy with many assets. Persistence pays off i guess ;)

[amaranth]

Finding a programming job is hard enough as it is with a degree, so having no degree? forget about it... I am thinking of a job that incorporates my skills and experience as a software developer... Maybe something like a technical writer for a software company (code manuals, etc.), Software Tester, etc. I have no idea.

You'll need a degree to get a tech writing job. Good writers are hard to come by and I've not seen one that didn't require an advanced degree ;)

George, my advice is to go to college, take advantage of student loans and live meekly off of what you are currently making on your games. I think you'll like the college atmosphere, and with your previous experience, many of the classes should be a breeze. Going might also help you decide what direction you want to take in the future. One thing is sure... once you have a degree under your belt, especially a B.S., lots of doors open :)

[arcadetown]

There's tons of opportunity for guerilla marketing. This business about things being locked up is only true if you look at it from the old school view of do 1 day of submissions duty and your marketing is done. Bezerker's just one example of a new guy squeezing in nicely by trying all sorts of angles. Why others aren't as willing to wear the marketing hat instead of throwing their hands in the air saying not as easy as 5 years ago, I don't know.

[destron]

sorry to hear about that, george - -
you did something that a lot of us have done or eventually will do - take our job (or in this case, your business) for granted. but getting on to things past that,

i would suggest going to college and getting a degree (i think that's already been suggested here a bunch of times) in computer science, for programming. If you want to work as a programmer (even if it's not for games) you need to know c++ or else you'll sink to the bottom of the interviewer's wastebasket. that's my 2 cents, probably everybody already said that a million times already... but nevertheless...