Considering going Indie...

[destructuring-bind]

Hi folks,

I have been on an academic career path for a while but things haven't worked out (apparently no one is interested in theoretical AI research in this country). I have decided to switch to an entrepreneurial path and games are the things I know most about making.

I have a project in mind that I have been thinking about for a few months. My market reference point is Darwinia. Based on superficial similarities in themes I should have an audience of at least the same size. I wont go in to detail but I am confident I can produce something highly novel with a richer and more compelling experience than that title, and I can do it in 12-18 months if I can work on it full time.

My problem is getting started. My current job is technically (but not intellectually) challenging, the hours are long and unpredictable, and the working conditions are degrading and borderline abusive.

I cannot fund development for more than about 1 year out of my own pocket, so I need a different job to help me bootstrap this operation.

I gather that many individuals on this forum focus on smaller-scale projects in general and recommend starting small to begin with. This appeals to me and I think I will do this before tackling a larger product. I still need to quit my current job however, so here is my burning question:

What are good day jobs for starting out indie?

Thanks in advance, and bonus gratitude for Seattle-specific suggestions!
d-b

[Mark Fassett]

Any job that brings in money that you hate enough to drive you to work all hours of the night on your own projects will suffice. This works especially well if it doesn't bring in enough money to live very well.

[svero]

I guess it depends on your expenses. I'd say reduce your expenses to the minimum you can stand and take a job that is mostly manual labor with little thought required. (Roadwork, piling boxes, painting etc... ) The reason I recommend that is that it won't wear out your desire to code and work on the game. I use to work as a developer by day and try to do games by night, but by the time i got home I just wasnt in the mood to do any more code... that's what I'd done all day.

[mahlzeit]

If your your big game is what you really want to make, then don't try a small game first (unless you've never actually made and finished a game before). That small game most likely won't make you any money, so it's just a waste of time and resources that would have been better spent on the real thing you wanted to do.

[Sakura Games]

Isn't always that way - I mean if for small game you mean a tetris clone then forget about it, but if for small game you mean even just an arkanoid clone, a platform game, something small at low price, it could even work (check Titan Assault). In some cases, it might even give you more money than big titles... :D

[svero]

A small game can be more about figuring out the non-game-making related issues. Setting up a website, a payment processor, how to do press release, submit games etc...

[BlueWaldo]

(apparently no one is interested in theoretical AI research in this country).

Where have you looked and what kind of computer science education do you have?

[destructuring-bind]

Thanks for the input guys.

I had gathered there wasnt a consensus on the wisdom of starting with a smaller (2-6 months) game if its not your main thing. Personally I dont play smaller games so I havent developed any instinct for that category. Any game I could get excited about making must be very unique. I feel confident this is an asset for marketing my larger project, but what about a smaller one? I gather that in certain places, it has to look familiar in order to sell.

@BlueWaldo:
I am very particular about the type of research I want to do, and I could not find anyone in the US doing it. I would rather not bother with the Ph.D. if I'm not going to be doing something I love, so here I am. I did CS and Math at UW. Its a relatively decent program. I was mainly in to theory, AI, and VLSI, but I did some nice graphics work. I'm mainly a lisp and C++ person now, I'm not in to hype-oriented languages.

d-b

[Game Submit]

If you estimate you can do it 18 months full time, but you are working on your PhD, and it is your first priority, then I would suggest giving yourself a more realistic time estimate.

[destructuring-bind]

Err, just to clarify I am switching from an academic track entirely. I am not doing a Ph.D. now and do not plan to for at least 5-10 years.

My 18-month estimate is including marketing and sales-related stuff exclusively for 3 of those months. Is this way off base? My old friend and partner in crime is an experienced web designer and has some experience in marketing. If I have to do it myself it will take longer.

Yes I expect things will take much longer than I'd like, which is why I need to stay afloat for an extended period of time.

My last main large piece of software was a real-time imaging framework that drives all the imaging systems in our lab. And yes its gone all the way from my design to my being attacked by the clueless :) I'm not an experienced software engineer by any stretch, but I have done things of similar scale.

My base environment is ECL and C++ with SDL, currently developing on linux. I would like to require that my code compile on all three platforms from the beginning, but I dont have a mac (yet).

d-b

[d000hg]

There are jobs where you could work on while game while at 'work'. For isntance being on reception for an offcie block - not a receptionist but the person at the main entrance directing visitors / doing security etc. Or any kind of work where you're there ready in case of an emergency - 90% of the time you can do other things in-between events.

I've considered something like this but not been brave enough so far!

[baegsi]

... I have decided to switch to an entrepreneurial path and games are the things I know most about making.

... I wont go in to detail but I am confident I can produce something highly novel with a richer and more compelling experience than that title, and I can do it in 12-18 months if I can work on it full time.

Have you considered starting your business with something different than games?
Spending 18 months developing a product where you have almost no possibility to predict its success is very risky (and not very entrepreneurial btw ;) ). You can make the most novel game ever - there's no guarantee whatsoever that you can even cover your expenses. Not speaking about all the energy you've put into it.

It's also quite a task to create something like Darwinia in 18 months. Don't forget, Introversion is a team of developers with lots of experience. I'd start much smaller if I where you.

[cliffski]

I thought introversion was 3 guys, and only really 1 coder?

[destructuring-bind]

Have you considered starting your business with something different than games?
Spending 18 months developing a product where you have almost no possibility to predict its success is very risky (and not very entrepreneurial btw ;) ). You can make the most novel game ever - there's no guarantee whatsoever that you can even cover your expenses. Not speaking about all the energy you've put into it.

It's also quite a task to create something like Darwinia in 18 months. Don't forget, Introversion is a team of developers with lots of experience. I'd start much smaller if I where you.
I certainly wouldnt try to do something like darwinia in that time frame. I meant similar audience, similar depth, similar experience. They spent a huge amount of time on content creation, my design explicitly avoids 85% of that.

But you guys are right, even if the expected profit/time ratio is much lower, doing something small first has many other benefits.

d-b

[illume]

Make a few small games first. Weekend games, and 1-2 week games. Joining in on some game dev competitions is good.

Then once you have started to make something good for those small games start to polish one up. Maybe spend a month on it.

The first 10 games you make might be crap. Finishing games is hard. Polishing games is even harder. Selling games is even harder still.

Always make games you are passionate about. Don't quit your day job.

... well that's the advice I would have liked to have followed.

[mahlzeit]

Always make games you are passionate about.
So don't make a small game just for the sake of making a small game, unless it's a small game you're passionate about. That's what I meant with my reply above. Always work on your best idea first.

[Davaris]

If your game idea is so good why not test it in the market place? Write up a business plan and look for investors. I know someone (IR Gurus) who did this and he wasn't even a programmer. Why be poor and struggling if you don't have to be? If no one will invest in your game, its probably because its not good enough.

P.S.
Wise Old Man Saying:
Working really hard and spending years making product does not mean it will sell.

[destructuring-bind]

If your game idea is so good why not test it in the market place? Write up a business plan and look for investors. I know someone (IR Gurus) who did this and he wasn't even a programmer. Why be poor and struggling if you don't have to be? If no one will invest in your game, its probably because its not good enough.

P.S.
Wise Old Man Saying:
Working really hard and spending years making product does not mean it will sell.

Someone here said that a game idea sans implementation is worth about $0.0833 and I am inclined to agree. Who are these investors that are so eager to part with their cash?

I don't need _that_ much cash to get off the ground, but I need to lower my risk to an acceptable level.

[Davaris]

Someone here said that a game idea sans implementation is worth about $0.0833 and I am inclined to agree. Who are these investors that are so eager to part with their cash?

I don't need _that_ much cash to get off the ground, but I need to lower my risk to an acceptable level.

He did a short business course, wrote a 5 year plan about a company that would target female gamers and got $200,000 to make a game about horse riding (Riding Star). I guess he shopped his plan around until he found people who were interested. He would have joined organisations where business people meet and got venture capital from them. As I remember he was very good at talking and talking. He was never off the phone. :)

I think its far better than going Indie, because you can pay yourself a wage whether the product sells or not and have a life.

[dmikesell]

Can you find a less abusive job in your current field? What is your current field? Other than that, I 2nd the suggestion of security guard. The night/weekend shift at our building is always playing games on their computers.

[Raptisoft]

Hm, things sure have changed... back in my day, it was generally accepted that a person's first game should be an MMORPG.

[destructuring-bind]

Well I am looking for non-engineering part-time work. Anything in the same line of work I do now would probably still be NIH funded....and I am certain that the secretaries downstairs get paid more than anyone in my group.

I am contemplating managing a small apartment building or doing computer repair/support. But security guard might not be too bad if I can read on the job :)

As far as seeking investors goes, I feel that I can bootstrap myself without a lot of resources so it might not be worth it. That said, can anyone else comment on that idea? Is it too antithetical to being 'indie' that people here wouldnt have contemplated it?

[Applewood]

Forget all this ethical shit. Part of being indie is that there are supposedly no rules.

My definition of Indie is pretty tight by others' definitions, but I think the thing you should strive for the most is just doing what feels right and trying to enjoy it.

Mind, it'd be nice to eat too.

Personally, I'd advise looking at doing some contracting work which is a nice halfway house to get you started. There's tons of it about - not every publisher is EA and the best sources are larger developers anyway - they often want demos knocking out for the next trade show etc. It's crap but it generally pays well and is over quickly.

[Nexic]

As others have stated dont do a 18 month project first. We can tell you as much as we can about how much you can expect to make etc, but until you do it for yourself you won't really know for sure how things work. Go for a 3-6 month project first and see what happens first, then your 18 month (if you still decide to do it) will likely be much more profitable.

[gec]

If you have a really strong background in AI, maybe you should try working at a game developer. There are quite a few where you live. I know that will not get you closer to being indepenedent, but it will probably increase your knowledge of game development. Also, most game developers pay well enough that you could probably save enough to help support yourself in your start up.

[David De Candia]

There are jobs where you could work on while game while at 'work'. For isntance being on reception for an offcie block - not a receptionist but the person at the main entrance directing visitors / doing security etc.

I work part time on a resort reception desk. It is great - it is very people-oriented and provides the perfect break from coding. You get to use completely different skills. I think it helps to breathe a bit of fresh air into my life generally. I think my productivity has actually improved since I took this job, because sometimes the best thing you can do for your game is to step away from it for a few days each week.

[terenctb]

Yeah,

I've been looking at what I can do to get myself over to New Zealand and work there doing something similar...something pretty people oriented which changes the way I look at thing I am sure...

Bascially so that there is small revenue stream in ..a part time job helps. Teaching over here sucks both pay wise and the colleges treat you like utter crap...you end up running around exploiting students to no end.

Me and some of my friends are thinking of organizing game skills workshops, charge a small fee per head (enough to cover the venue, photocopying, admin services and maybe a couple of lunches) ..that way it helps both the community and us...as we spend our time find out the nuances of using a particular tool, software and preparing presentation material...

If you want to be an indie though working in game company wouldn't be a good idea...well except if you were looking for good experience(been there ...done that)...game company suck up alot of your ideas/live etc..in case you haven't already heard...