Game Engines

[Sean Doherty]

From Dexterity.com:


I've had Torque for a few weeks, but I've not played with it too much due to the pressing need to finish my current title (which has its own, custom-made engine & networking code).

So the question might be: Why did I get Torque when I have my own, custom 3D engine & network code?

The big reasons for me included a lack of desire to maintain my current engine longer than I need to --- it works, but I'm spending a lot of time adding features & fixing bugs that I wouldn't need to do so much in an off-the-shelf engine... I could instead concentrate on adding just the things that will make my game rock. The feature set that impressed me was:

* Built-in cross-platform support for PC, Linux, and Mac OS-X

* Proven, scaleable networking code

* A mix of terrain engine & interior environments through portaling (I *HAVE* done this on my own... but not nearly as nicely... and it can be a pain).

* A decent tools path... not as good as Ogre's, from what I can tell... but it sure beats having to write my own importers all the time.

* TONS of community support

* Built-in UI editor and world editing tools.

* Already tested & debugged collision, physics code (not stellar, but it works)

* Built-in scripting library.

I'm no stranger to any of the above features, but there's a big difference between knowing how to do them, and being able to do them QUICKLY so you can get a game on the shelf. I'm still considering Ogre for future projects too... I think it's important for an indie to know what's good for what, and to use the right tools for the job. I think Torque is pretty flexible - especially if you are willing to dive in and get your hands dirty with the core engine code. But it ain't as flexible as doing it yourself.

The last I saw of Crystal Space, it wasn't something I'd really want to use in a game. It looked like it was languishing in "Open Source Hell." Particularly once Ogre3D started taking off. If you are really just looking for a 3D engine and nothing else, I'd recommend taking the Ogre 3D route. There are several other options worthy of a look now, too...

Cube Engine
http://www.cubeengine.com/index.php4
http://cube-osx.sourceforge.net/

Catmother
http://catmother.sourceforge.net/

Irrlicht Engine (v. 0.6)
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/

A6 engine
http://www.conitec.net/a4info.htm

Nebula Device (some decent physics / collision code here, too):
http://www.nebuladevice.org/
http://www.radonlabs.de/nebula.html

Some things I'd consider "Second string" engines... probably nothing I'd use in a project right now, but possibilities nonetheless:

Cipher
http://www.cipherengine.com/

Neoengine
http://neoengine.sourceforge.net

Jet 3D
http://www.jet3d.com/

Crystal Space
http://crystal.sourceforge.net/

SpaceSimulator.net
http://spacesimulator.net/

Quake II
http://www.idsoftware.com/business/technology/

3D Gamemaker
http://t3dgm.thegamecreators.com/
(Point and click!)


I have been playing around with Irrlicht and OGRE. Irrlicht seems to be much easier to use and it has collision detection. OGRE has a lot more features and you can incorporate one of the open source physics engines into it for collision detection.

However, I keep wondering about the future of Torque and 3D Game Studio A6 looks pretty full featured. Altough, based on the A6 documentation, I am not convinced that it is easy to program if you don't do the scripting route.

I like to hear some more success stories on the varies engines?

[Coyote]

Oh, hey, that was my post! ;)

I've got nothing to add to it though. I'm am SO knee-deep in my custom engine (which I would prefer NOT to write for my next 3D game, thankyouverymuch!) I haven't had a chance to look more deeply at any of the other contenders.

I'm about 90% certain I'll be using Torque for my next "new" 3D game project - it seems to have most of the features I need, so I won't have to write THAT much new engine code.

[Sean Doherty]

Oh, hey, that was my post! ;)

I've got nothing to add to it though. I'm am SO knee-deep in my custom engine (which I would prefer NOT to write for my next 3D game, thankyouverymuch!) I haven't had a chance to look more deeply at any of the other contenders.

I'm about 90% certain I'll be using Torque for my next "new" 3D game project - it seems to have most of the features I need, so I won't have to write THAT much new engine code.


Ya it was a a lot of information that probably should be lost. So do you remember why you ruled out A6? Also, I am looking closer at Torque everyday; I really like the shader engine that there are building. That said, looks like A6 has the same features?

[Coyote]

Mainly it was price. I couldn't see a compelling reason why I'd want to spend more for GameEngine than Torque - especially with the way even the Commercial license is crippled. And - from what I can tell - A6 only gives you access through plug-ins. Torque is the source code - the whole kit 'n kaboodle. So you don't necessarily HAVE to live with any of the engine's limitations.

[Sean Doherty]

Mainly it was price. I couldn't see a compelling reason why I'd want to spend more for GameEngine than Torque - especially with the way even the Commercial license is crippled. And - from what I can tell - A6 only gives you access through plug-ins. Torque is the source code - the whole kit 'n kaboodle. So you don't necessarily HAVE to live with any of the engine's limitations.

Do you still have that view; Torque is $100.00 + $195.00 Shader Engine (after Early Adopter Special) which is totals $250.00 - $300.00.

A6 is $200.00 for professional; not sure what is really missing from that version other than:

- Level editor not distributable.
- Render to textures
- 4 Player Multi-Player

It does look like it would be difficult to actually program A6 using C++; I would imagine most people go the scripting method with the engine.

[Aldacron]

I was just looking at the Raylogic engine (http://www.raylogic.com/), which has this to say on the licensing page:



The expected engine license is $250 per developer seat, with no additional royalties. A licensed copy allows the individual licensee of the engine to use the engine toward development of unlimited personal or commercial games or other applications.


Looks interesting, except that it appears to be targeting Windows platforms only:



This may be the most unusual feature of the engine. The base engine does not have a graphics API for game programming. It provides a shader class, a model class, and an extendable DirectX-based graphics toolkit. These are used together to create a graphics rendering system. This shader/model system is based on DirectX Effects, allowing HL vertex and pixel shader programming.


If they had built-in multiplatform support (not just for the graphics), or at the minimum included the source code (which they don't) so that one could add support for other platforms, then they would be an excellent alternative to Torque for indies. Their collision system sounds awesome, but it doesn't do it for me.

Just thought I'd mention it for those who might be interested.

[Coyote]

It does look like it would be difficult to actually program A6 using C++; I would imagine most people go the scripting method with the engine.

That would be my next worry. My next big project is not currently intended to be multiplayer, so the 4-player limitation (which I consider a pretty extreme limitation these days) wouldn't be such an issue. But if I am prohibited from getting at the guts of the code, it had better be an engine that is 100% PERFECT for my needs.

Maybe A6 is, and I'm being stupid. But I'm not planning on using the TSE for my next project either...

[Sean Doherty]

That would be my next worry. My next big project is not currently intended to be multiplayer, so the 4-player limitation (which I consider a pretty extreme limitation these days) wouldn't be such an issue. But if I am prohibited from getting at the guts of the code, it had better be an engine that is 100% PERFECT for my needs.

Maybe A6 is, and I'm being stupid. But I'm not planning on using the TSE for my next project either...


Why are you not planning to use Torque for your next project; what are you going to use? I have been playing around with Torque and I can tell that there is a big learning curve. That said, I ordered the 3D Game Programming Torque Engine book last night.

At this point, I am thinking about porting to Irrlicht because I think there could be less of a learning curve.

[Sillysoft]

I just saw this link posted on slashdot. It's a website trying to catalogue all the 3D engines out there.

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/

[Coyote]

Sean - I am using Torque, just not the Torque Shader Engine. Though that may change, depending upon how long this project takes. I'm targeting a 'semi-casual audience' with this... folks who may not have a fully DX9 compatible card by the time my game is released.

On the other hand, I understand the graphics pipeline has been re-written to be MUCH easier to work with in TSE than TGE (and in fact I may not have to do any customization on the graphics side), so sucking it up and aiming for the higher platform requirements might still be worth my while.

As you can tell, the jury is still out - the biggest thing I needed was SOLID indoor & outdoor support & OS-X support for easier portability. Irrlicht has no OS-X support, and Ogre is going to require a bit of do-it-yourself work which I'd just as soon avoid. I *WILL* take a look at A6 before I go into full-fledged development mode... but since I already have Torque it has a little bit of an edge.

[Greg Squire]

Just a side note for those using Torque and looking for the book "3D Game Programming All In One". I ordered mine on Overstock.com for $28.99 ($1.40 shipping). That's the cheapest I've found. Hope that helps some of you.

[Chris Evans]

Is there any plans for A6 to have OS-X support?

[Sean Doherty]

Is there any plans for A6 to have OS-X support?

I looked through the forum; it is hardly ven mentioned. I would say if there were going to support OS-X it would be in A6. Which mean it is probably at least a year away at best.

Here are some pros and cons for A6 and Torque from the A6 forums:

3DGS Strengths
-Easy to use
-Great Support

Weaknesses
-Behind on features at the moment
-PC only
-Conitec doesn't publish games
-Not open source

Torque Strengths
-Open Source
-Cheaper than Pro with more features
-Ports to linux, mac, pc, and XBox
-Garage Games also publishs games
-Medium Support

Weaknesses
-Steep Learning curve

[Chris Evans]

I looked through the forum; it is hardly ven mentioned. I would say if there were going to support OS-X it would be in A6. Which mean it is probably at least a year away at best.

Drat...

The only 3D/game engines I know of that support both PC and Mac is Torque and Director.

Does anyone know if any other game engines that support both Mac and PC? I know there are several 2D options (such as PTK), but I'm looking for a cross-platform 3D engine.

[Sean Doherty]

Drat...

The only 3D/game engines I know of that support both PC and Mac is Torque and Director.

Does anyone know if any other game engines that support both Mac and PC? I know there are several 2D options (such as PTK), but I'm looking for a cross-platform 3D engine.

Crystal Space
OGRE - Rendering Engine
Open Scene Graph
Torque

And a few others here:

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/list.php?fid=5&sid=2

I keep seeing Crystal Space mentioned but I have never tried it; is it ay good?