Is college a must?

[AdamskiAirsoft]

Is college a must?

I'm going to be taking Computer Science I-IV during my High School years starting next grade.

My plans afterwards? US Marine Corps Infantry until I'm hornably discharged due to age. From there, I'd get a job working at an airsoft store, wargame, working on the guns, upgrading guns, and other things there. My living needs are much lower IMO, I'd do fine in an apartment that costs about $500 a month.

In my free time however, I'd like to come back and program. I was programming in Blitz3D for a bit ago and was doing fine but stopped. Now, is college really a must? I'd simply be programming an indie first person shooter in Blitz3D, a language made for making games. I wouldn't plan on selling it, but if I did it be for a low cost.

So, is college really a must? Or would what gets covered in Computer Science IV cover most of it? I could always pick up a book or two if say I choose to do some miscleanious programming for some extra cash.

[Mark Fassett]

You may do fine in a $500 apartment - but what about a future wife? Kids? What you do now sets you up for most of the rest of your life.

I think some college is important. Graduating? Not as important, but still useful. The thing about college is that you get exposed to so many more opportunities (if you go about it with an open mind) than you did in high school. You may not like any of them, but now is not the time to limit yourself.

I will forever regret not finishing college when I was young.

[Pyabo]

If you are already planning on going into the military, then why not apply to one of the military academies? Or a school with an ROTC program like Texas A&M?

I'm sure Airsoft is loads of fun... but it probably won't be a life-fulfilling passion for you 10 years from now. :) Having a "backup" career path like software engineering will be very handy in the future, and getting a college education is almost mandatory for that.

Finally, a mere opinion: Planning the rest of your future at the age of 14 or 15 is humorously naive. :) Like most people, you will probably find your plans change over the course of time... Adaptability is one of the keys to happiness.

[Christian]

Deciding your future at the age of 14 maybe is naive for you, but its also important, i regret not going to an art school at that age for example, instead i didnt think about it and went to a technical school, i didnt know what i was doing, and it was the worst time of my life... OOoohh if i had gone to an art school! the things i would be doing now!. So my advice is, find out what you most like to do, and get profesionall help to decide what is the best path to follow.

[electronicStar]

You may do fine in a $500 apartment - but what about a future wife? Kids? What you do now sets you up for most of the rest of your life.
A wife? kids?
Who need that when you can be the creepy guy with the metal plate in the skull who fixes guns in the basement of the paintball shop.
Your guns have plenty enough love to give you, more than these filthy women. And guns don't make a mess when you take them apart, piece by piece....Ah the memories...
</sarcasm>

[DrWilloughby]

A wife? kids?
Who need that when you can be the creepy guy with the metal plate in the skull who fixes guns in the basement of the paintball shop.
Your guns have plenty enough love to give you, more than these filthy women. And guns don't make a mess when you take them apart, piece by piece....Ah the memories...
</sarcasm>You know, there was no begin sarcasm tag on your post. That either means there's a syntax error in the world or my whole life has been a joke. Maybe both.

[robleong]

In general, my advice is that a college degree is always useful. Sure, there are people who do very well without a college degree, but there are many more who do better with one.

[Jason Chong]

"my advice is that a college degree is always useful."


If one could afford it, why not ?

I never finished a college degree. No money and it wasn't cheap.

I have the money now but I need it for something else.

[Anthony Flack]

Going to university is something I'd recommend, generally. But it's not necessary to go and study computer science in order to make a game, if that's what you're getting at.

I never studied computer science, and I can still make games just fine. Sure, I'd probably be a much better coder if I did take computer science, but I went to art school instead, and I think that ultimately, that was more beneficial for my games...

[svero]

I never studied computer science, and I can still make games just fine. Sure, I'd probably be a much better coder if I did take computer science, but I went to art school instead, and I think that ultimately, that was more beneficial for my games...

Actually coding is more hands on experience, and practice. Computer science at the university level (as opposed to a tech college say) is a much more theoretical thing, where most of the subject matter isn't applicable to every day development. (at least how it was tought when I attended school) For my part, in retrospect, I would have been better off with a bach in physics (just a good general learn to think) or maybe some business related thing...

[Ricardo C]

I dropped out with three semesters left (I was a CS major), and I regret it now. Sure, there's no indie union checking my credentials, but a degree is a wonderful thing to fall back on, and it never hurts to have it.

[Hamumu]

I disagree with the inapplicability of a CS degree. Stuff I learned in college computer classes has been invaluable. The theory of all the different kinds of data structures stands out. That broadened my thinking on the issue and gave me a whole set of tools to choose from. I don't remember lots of the specifics anymore, of course, but it changed how I code. I also learned about AI, 3D graphics (both electives, of course!), networking, how to code a compiler (not something I've had to, but I've actually applied tons of stuff from the class in doing homebrew scripting), and semi-uselessly how to do microcode on 68000 CPUs (which it turns out was key in getting my job at a game studio, porting a SNES game to the Genesis, because I had to learn 68000 ASM to do it).

So I disagree that a CS degree is not useful in being a game developer. I think it's very useful. But that doesn't mean it's necessary. You could learn all those things surfing the web intensely. There is an advantage to a forced curriculum, making you learn stuff you think you don't want to - it'll broaden your skills. If you just research what you want, you'll be lacking some fundamental skills you really need to do well.

But further than that, I don't think being a good coder is even necessary to be an indie. I think, like Aflack, you'd be better off as a great artist and a tolerable coder. And if you have the inclination and logical mind and perseverence, tolerable coding is easy to pick up.

[Anthony Flack]

Having a completed bachelor's degree was important for me to get a job and a working visa in Japan. It didn't really matter what my major was; they just want to see that you've graduated.

[Grey Alien]

I've seen plenty of degree level job applicants who knew FA about programming and computers, it's a wonder they passed. Being a hobbyist (for many years) and then getting hands on real-life work experience is what counts imho.

However, you'll probably have a blast at Uni, just don't get too drunk and keep on the computers in your spare time...

[Hiro_Antagonist]

I graduated with a degree in Journalism, which has basically no bearing on what I do now.

That said, I'm very glad I went to college and wouldn't trade it in for anything. It helped me socially, academically, profesesionally, and on nearly any other axis that I can think of.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[terin]

College is essential. End of story. Those that say otherwise didn't go to one :-P

Here's why: When I was a freshman in college I thought I had a good business sense and was well put together. I was right.

However, I NEVER could have gotten where I am today without what I learned in college- not neccessarily in class, but in general. If I had left highschool and started a marketing business for games, even with 4 extra years of experience, I think I would be behind where I am right now. Simply put, at the age of 18 I lacked the ability to stick with something long enough to turn it into prosperity. I lacked it and I was the biggest dork, the best businessman, and already had 4 years of work experience in sales and management. I needed time to grow and mature and college was a great outlet for that (not to mention the rad parties, naked women, tons of booze, and occassional class that taught me things I actually use).

The fact I graduated wasn't that important, though it definately makes clients feel better when I can say I have a degree in marketing from a top university. It also comes in handy should I ever need to find a 9-5 job to fall back on should things go wrong.

The biggest thing my wife regrets so far in life is not finishing college. She's going back now and will almost be 24 by the time she starts. To her it isn't about the importance of the degree so much as finishing what she started and doing something she enjoys (art history- bleh). Her goal is a PhD so she can teach the subject to others (also- bleh). She'll be at least 30 before she's finished...

-Joe

[Chris Evans]

Heh...

Generally people who went to college say you should go and people who didn't go to college say you can do without it...

Personally, I think it really depends on the person and what they're trying to accomplish. For instance, if you have a lot of drive and you generally want to work for yourself, then a college degree really isn't necessary. However if you want good job security, then a college degree helps a lot. A college degree doesn't prevent you from being layed off (you actually might be first to go due to your medium/high salary), but it makes it a lot easier to get a new job that pays decent even in an unrelated field. If you don't have a college degree, it's hard to get a decent paying job if it's not related to your work experience.

To tie this in to your original question, how serious are you about making your own games? Is the idea of running your own business exciting to you or just a necessary evil in order to sell your games? I ask this because if you just want to make games, you don't need a CS degree but college in general gives you something nice to fall back on if selling your games doesn't work out. Selling games is more than just coding. And even with programing, a CS degree helps but a lot of people here are able to make decent games without it, so try to major in something you enjoy.

As for me, my parents are well-educated but I didn't go to college. I'm 25 and so far I haven't regretted it. I'm a good self-learner and I'm able to motivate myself with little help from others. I gained a lot of real-world experience while my friends were getting drunk at college in their freshmen/sophomore years. I also much prefer to work for myself. Since I've been running my current game business, I don't see myself ever working for someone else again. If something happens to the current business, at worst I'll probably do freelance work or just startup another business.

A degree really isn't important to me because I'm not trying to work for someone else. I like running my own businesses and even if I need to get a "regular" job temporarily I have enough work experience that I can get an okay-paying mid/low-end tech job. As for social networking, you don't need college to network. You can join clubs, go to the gym, go to Indie meetings and many other things to get to know people and network. It's just you have to push yourself to do these things when you're your own boss.

Heh I just realized you're 14/15 years old. You still have time but I think it's really cool that you're already thinking seriously about your future. Just remember you can't map things out precisely, you're always going to be thrown some curveballs. But I recommend over the next couple of years, get good grades in high school (take honors if you can) and examine what type of person you are. For some college is excellent and for others it isn't necessary. There's immigrants who come into America who don't have a college degree and speak very little English but have huge drive and perseverance. Some of them are able to eventually create and run successful businesses and send their own kids to college. So it depends but you have to be real with yourself. Sure generally speaking, for the average person it's better to go to college. But if you're not the average person, "general" advice may not be all that useful...



Sorry for the long rant; thought I'd give you an opinion from the "uneducated" contingent. ;)

[FlySim]

I think getting that degree opens doors. In my 20+ years as an engineer at 5 different firms, I don't think we ever interviewed someone without a degree. I don't really agree (may have missed some great candidates), but it was policy.

Besides, college can be a ton of fun :D

[Sol_HSA]

I've been programming professionally for about 8 years now, without having a degree. However, I enrolled as a "adult student" and have been studying on most evenings for the past couple of years, and I have to tell you that it's been worth it.

With some real-life experience under my belt, having real motivation for studying has made a big difference compared to what it would have been should I have entered a college "back then".

[Abscissa]

I've always been extremely anti-school, and I consider going to college to be the biggest, most expensive mistake I've ever made. There are other methods of learning that are vastly cheaper, more effective, and overall better. Contrary to popular belief, school is certification, NOT education. A degree is nothing more than a $100,000 paper requested by HR departments that don't know a damn thing about the skills required for their company's jobs, and couldn't distinguish between an expert and a hack even if their careers depended on it. "If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library."

[yanuart]

There are other methods of learning that are vastly cheaper, more effective, and overall better. Contrary to popular belief, school is certification, NOT education.
not in the case of medical school :D anyway, go to school if you can. There are many things that can affect the outcome of an education but mostly it's all about you.
My degree is somewhere deep down in my closet and I believe I make more money than my classmates but I never regret my school days.

[HairyTroll]

. Contrary to popular belief, school is certification, NOT education.

I would say that you get out what you put in. So if you go to school with the intention to learn then you will.

[illume]

Computer Science IV, and some art classes should cover most of what you need to know.

'Join the marines. Travel the world and meet nice people. Then kill them.'

Definitely do college over becomming a gun nut weirdo who'll be brainwashed into becomming a cog in the machine for the current fascist USA government.

If you have to chose between doing college and then wasting four years in the military don't do college! Or find another way to do college which doesn't involve murder.

[vjvj]

I would say that you get out what you put in. So if you go to school with the intention to learn then you will.

The same could be said about anything. Abscissa is right, school is a certification. The learning process is 99% detached from the certification process.

In the game industry (and some related industries such as realtime 3D graphics), a college degree is definitely not necessary.

There are days I wish I had finished school (usually when I'm faced with a math problem that could be solved quickly with symbolic methods; holes in my education often force me to look such information up), however in the end I'm happy with the path I took. Remember that less school = more work experience. That tradeoff has worked for me.

[Travis Dorschel]

For the love...

GO TO COLLEGE (University preferably)! There is so much more to college than just education! You just don't really get to spend time with so many other smart, diverse and talented people at the same time in life if you are just working 9-5 - or sitting in your dark room at your parents house burning yourself out pumping out indie games. Here are a few other reasons: Professors, Research Projects, Internships, Career Centers, Co-ed Dorms, Intramural Co-ed Sports, Student Clubs, Mentors, Tutors, Tutoring, Fun Classes, Cool Projects, All nighters, LAN parties, Friends, Girls, Parties, Dances, Formals, Roommates, Road Trips, Spouses. Oh - and in general you will make more money.

A degree is nothing more than a $100,000 paper

I beg to differ. Personally, I went to the UW and it only cost $16,000 (tuition and books for 4 years). I honestly wouldn't trade those 4 years for $1,000,000. I had the time of my life, made incredible memories, met my closest friends, fell in love with my wife, got married, got an internship and a full time job and graduated in four years. Oh, and I still had time to work on my games, screensavers, projects, work out all the time, start the beginnings of my business, play way too many video games and just waste time in general. Fun times!:) I can't recommend it highly enough...

[Jesse Aldridge]

Well I'll just add that college isn't necessarily all peaches and cream.
I got stuck my freshman year in the all-male dorm on campus.
I moved to another one Sophmore year, only to find out it had just for that year become guys only. :eek: When you have a bunch of random guys crammed together society more or less degrades to bare formality.
Between that and a being C.S. major, attending the computer game development club... yeah, not a lot of action there.
Plus the campus I went to (U of Texas) is ginormous. You talk to someone one day and you'll be lucky if you ever see them again.

I was only there for two years so I didn't take much beyond intro level classes. But the classes I did take were close to useless. I've learned way more about programming and game development off of the internet then I ever did in school. Also, wikipedia.org (http::\\wikipedia.org) == Free Liberal Arts education.

Actually I still spend a lot of time on campus. I work most of the day in the computer lab. The college atmosphere is definitely pleasant. As long as you don't have to deal with all of that homework crap. And right now, I can laugh at all my friends cramming for finals. :D Bwahaha

[vjvj]

For the love...

GO TO COLLEGE (University preferably)! There is so much more to college than just education! You just don't really get to spend time with so many other smart, diverse and talented people at the same time in life if you are just working 9-5 - or sitting in your dark room at your parents house burning yourself out pumping out indie games. Here are a few other reasons: Professors, Research Projects, Internships, Career Centers, Co-ed Dorms, Intramural Co-ed Sports, Student Clubs, Mentors, Tutors, Tutoring, Fun Classes, Cool Projects, All nighters, LAN parties, Friends, Girls, Parties, Dances, Formals, Roommates, Road Trips, Spouses. Oh - and in general you will make more money.


No one is saying "don't go to college". The OP asked if it was a must and we are answering truthfully (it's not).

I fully agree with all the benefits you listed above, and experienced quite a bit of them myself (I never said I didn't GO to college, I just didn't finish, hehe). Overall it's a tradeoff, work experience vs. college experience.

I guess my point is that it doesn't have to be black and white. Go ahead and try school, but don't feel obligated to finish it if a good opportunity arises.

[Leper]

Hey guys,

Well, I didnt go to college, I didnt even finish High school, and I make close to 40 grand for year (and have been here at my job for the last 4 years) - I also am breaking into the indie-scene, and doing independant contracting with music, and profitting off of ad revenue.

The outcome? Well, I'll be making more than 40k a year soon enough, and its funny because I've done interviews with people begging to work under me who had bachelor's degrees.

College isnt required is my point, but then again, my mom did pray and fast alot that I'd get a good job so I think God had something to do with it.

The Job I have now, I do a lot fo Accounting and Book keeping, I also do lots of Profit / Loss scenarios etc. That kind of stuff is priceless to know when it comes to running a business, or actually maintaining a household too. Ya know those types of people that always pay late on their bills, live paycheck to paycheck, and seem to complain about not having enough money all teh time? Yeah usually they're the ones that also spend way too much money on things they cant afford? Yeah I'm not one of them ;)

Hmm I learned it in the school of life, not the school of memorization without application. I dont think Bill Gates went to college, did he? (somsone told me that, not sure if its true)

Anyway, there are plenty of successful people who didnt go to college, and there are lots of people who went to college and can't find a job.

It's whats in your heart that makes you successful. You must have that passion! If you don't, you can get all the edumacation in the world and it wont make a difference.

I'm not anti-college, and I think college can do well but ONLY if you it seriously. There are too many peeps out there that act elitist about college and push their noses in the air towards people that don't go.

Well, I make more money then people that have bachelors degrees, (some make close to what I make) and I'm not paying back a huge rip-me-off-please loan either. But dont get me wrong, I think college is good, but I dont think its a WIN-WIN endeavor. Ultimately, the only way you're goiong to be a success is if you put passion into what you do. Whether its learning on your own like I did, or its really learning in college as opposed to being a waste of human flesh and memorizing answers / cheating.

Later,
Matt

[Leper]

We hired a guy who had every certification under the sun regarding our line of work. Which is heating and air conditioning. We then hired a guy who used to co-own a business (he had an old license, but not near as many certs as the other guy) which went down due to lack of insurance combined with flooding.

Guess who did well?

The guy with all the education and certs was a lazy man who took 3 times the amount of time to do jobs that were enen done incorrectly! The guy without all the education did an excellent job and is still with us today.

My point is if you think education is 100% sure-fire no holds bar automatic pass to a good life then you are in for a rude awakening. If it worked out for you then great, but to the majority of students I doubt that is the case. My bro has that 2 year degree (whats it called? associates right?) in computers and doesnt know how to code even though he took a c++ course. He also is just an apprentice for an electrician.

Now he owes the government big bucks and isnt making any more money than he was before college.. Again, I'll say it loud and clear, its not a 100% sure-fire no holds bar automatic pass to a good life. It might increase your chances, but not to the masses. All too often its the scenario of another American bloke going into severe debt because of college and making around 24k a year at some dead end job along side kids with GED's.

[Greg Squire]

Would you want a surgeon that hasn't been to med school cutting into you? Would you care if the guy in the drive through at McDonald's had a masters in philosophy? Obviously for some professions it is more of a requirement to have a college degree, while some jobs only require some trade training (or apprentice type work). In computer programming it's usually required, but not completely. Most jobs I've looked at for want "specialized" experience and skills, things that aren't necessarily taught in the classroom. Because of how fast the industry changes, I think most people look at skills and experience more than education.

So is college necessary (for this field)? No, not completely, but it is helpful. It can be your "foot in the door" to get you into the industry (that is the computer industry where you are "working for the man"). Of course, college isn't required to be an entrepreneur. There are many famous people who dropped out of college, when their career took off. Here's a list of famous folks who never finished college (though they should be considered "exceptions to the rule"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_dropout
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high_school_dropouts
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/7734/cdoaa.html

I consider college as a "safety net" (if entrepreneurship doesn't work out) and that piece of paper to "get you in the door" when "working for the man". My advice would still be to go to college. You get out of college what you put into it. It's still useful (maybe not all of it, but a lot of it is). I'm still glad I went to college and got my bachelors in Computer Science. I don't think it ever was a waste of time or money.

[cliffski]

I was great at college, but lost interest at univeristy, but here in the UK, university was free, and you even got a grant to study when I did it :D
I failed my degree, but it didnt efefct my coding, my degree wasnt even in computing.
So make of that what you will.
Personally, Im pretty shocked that the OP is so worried about whether he needs a college education, but not worried about ending up in downtown baghdad mobbing up his best mates body parts. That would be top of my list of stuff to worry about in your situation ;(

[Curiosoft]

Actually I still spend a lot of time on campus. I work most of the day in the computer lab. The college atmosphere is definitely pleasant. As long as you don't have to deal with all of that homework crap. And right now, I can laugh at all my friends cramming for finals. :D Bwahaha

Yeah,

I think Jesse hit on the best model. Some people say, "go to school" and others say "it doesn't matter."

Have you considered the model of living near a college...but not necessarily enrolling. If you really want to go to classes, you can...no one will probably even care or notice. But the most important thing is to *meet* other folks your age (folks that are single, hungry, and enthusiastic about life).

I then recommend working on projects, creating stuff, and other things. Find some potential team-mates and co-founders ;)

The 50-100 k you were going to spend on school....spend on funding your own projects and a start-up. You have already shown entrepreneurship by doing your own games and business.

In the end, you will have had the "college experience", met potential business-partners, and have your own solid business :)

If you really want to know what is taught in class...might as well get the information from one of the best universities in the world -- MIT:
http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html

Unless you go to a top engineering school...it would be rare if the college courses can compete with the quality of MIT courses. And MIT is giving away their stuff for free.

In any case...
Instead of the homework that you would be doing...be sure to read up on and keep up on information relevant to your business and life.

Everyday...I go out of my way to watch informative videos and podcasts. The insights and opinions and understanding I get from those are invaluable as I work on my business.

Information and knowledge is exploding...and quite frankly most of the information you'll need to succeed...will not be found in school; I bet you marketing majors are still learning traditional marketing techniques even though Google (founded by dropouts) Adwords and Adsense change the rules of the game significantly.

The information you need will be found in talks/speeches/podcasts/blogs that talk about the "latest thing."

The mentality that your learning is done once you are out of school is very flawed. Information is like water.....you better get your 8 glasses everyday to stay healthy. Try to live your life without any water.

What if you drank water for only 4 or 5 years. Would that water last you for the rest of your life? IMO, no way. You need to always keep hydrated...the same is true with information/learning.

As much as I try to keep up with changes in the market...it is crazy how things and dynamics and assumptions change so quickly. A few days ago...I had this "whoa" realization when I realized that if I didn't outsource certain activities, I wouldn't stay competitive.

You get what you give. If you aren't getting what you need...figure out a way to give enough to finally get what you want.

Later,
Curiosoft