Opinions - join a (semi) start-up?

[bentlegen]

Hey everyone,

I know there are quite a few of people here who've done the grind at established game development companies before becoming indies, and would like to borrow your opinions. I find myself on the cusp of deciding to join one, and could really use some sage advice.

I recently had a job interview with a small game development shop in town that focuses on cellphone games. They've only been in business for a few years, but they've already acquired contracts with some big name entertainment companies, as well as obtained a large government funding grant, and are looking for more people to join their team of under 20 people. The interview went very well, and they offered me a position soon after.

First off, the pay is remarkably low. I mean, I was aware ahead of time I'd likely have to make some kind of sacrifice, but the exact figure caught me a little offguard. Let's just say it's less than I'd prefer, particularly in the moderately expensive city that I live in. That being said, they've made assurances that they want to get wages up to "industry average" as the company grows, and that stock options, although not finalized, will occur in the future. Of course, none of this will probably be on the contract I sign, but that doesn't mean these are bad guys and it won't happen. I think they're a good group, they mean well, and I believe it will happen - the question is, when? 1 year? 2, 3? There's no promises, regardless of their/our talent anything could happen, and the insecurity bothers me.

Now, maybe for some people, this is an easy decision. I mean, I love making games, and I'd love to make them for a living too, but I've also got another job waiting for me that could be a good (if not super-fun) career. I'm not terribly motivated by money, at least I'd like to believe so, but the lost income in taking the game development gig is more than considerable. I feel like I could come to regret *either* decision, and I'm not sure what to do.

Any thoughts? I'm really not sure what kind of point I'm trying to convey here ... but I'd appreciate some wisdom either way :)

Thanks

[svero]

I donno. Sounds bad to me. It sounds like you're basically going to give them something (less expensive labour) without receiving anything in return other than vague promises about your Salary increasing. If you want to share in the vision of the company and hope it succeeds then I think it should be more of a trade. I'll agree to work for 20k a year IF i get x% of company stock every 6 months.. something like that.

[FlySim]

I agree with Steve - there should be no reason they can't give out options now. I have done 2 startups now and lost a total of $6000 by exercising the options only to end up with worthless stock. If you do manange to get options, pay attention to the details like dilution and stock classes. If I ever join another startup, I'd ask for the ability to sell the stock at any dilution point (and probably not get it).

[PoV]

I got concerned there for a moment you were in London and I knew who you were talking about. ;)

Yes, pay at Canadian startups do suck. I've been through two at each extreme (employee and management). In many ways I hated my first one, but looking back I like what it did for me. It was more the accumulation of all the good and bad experiences (espectially the bad) that really helped me put things in to perspective.

Job security in the game industry is a bit of a joke. Obviously, if you're skilled and the go to guy, and not a jerk, you're laughing. But companies fold all the time (more so in the UK apparenty), so if you're in games, you're always at risk. Apparently I'm a good luck charm, as every company I seem to be involved in manages to avoid disaster. ;)

It's tough to get in to a larger higher paying company without experience, so weather the pay stinks and the company folds or not, getting a couple years under your belt will give you that edge. Startups take graduates 'cause they can't afford people with experience. If you're netting $2k a month, then you're on the better end of startups. Less than that, if you really have another opportunity, go for that instead. Unless you're totally 100% "I have to make games" that is.

As evil as it sounds, you could accept the job, and look for another one as you work for them. One guy worked for us for maybe 2 weeks before he "heard back" and got the job working for the military (who paid *much* more).

The other sad part is some compainies (employers) wont cough up more money until you threaten to quit. That of course has the risk of them allowing you to leave, but if you have positioned yourself as a key member of the team (Lead on a project or two) then you'll have pull. You wont want to try this until you're is 6 months in though ;). Pehaps at the review when they tell you they can't afford a raise. "I'm leading projects and making entry level wage. Why am I here?" sort of thing.

Oh, and watch out for bonuses as part of your pay. They rarely actually pan out as significant part of your income.

---

Options sounds silly guys. It's been my impression stock means the company has already had some success and a good reasons to acquire funding this way. At least I've never seen a startup with options.

[bentlegen]

Could somebody maybe give me a quick primer on stock options?

If I understand it correctly, the company gives me the option to purchase x number of stocks at some (presumably) affordable price for y number of months/years. The point being that, without financial risk on my part, if the company grows, I can sell my shares in the company at a presumably higher price than I'm capable of buying them, as long as it's before the expiration (dilution?) date?

[PoV]

Not to sound blunt, but yes.

[robleong]

The granting of stock options that I'm used to was in a company with stocks. So, say you are granted 2,000 stock options at a stock price of $10. Assuming after a year, the stock price goes up to $15, and 20% of your stock options have vested (it usually takes 5 years to fully vest). If you exercise your options now, you stand to make $5 x 2000 x 20% = $2,000. It's usually more complicated than that, in that you'll have to pay tax, etc.

[Sillysoft]

Stock options are only worth anything if the company is public. If it's a cash-strapped start-up then it seems likely they are not public. This means that any stock options they give out only get value after the company does an IPO (goes public) and is listed on a stock exchange. (Or if they get bought out then options might have some value.) So view any stock option promises as a long term "maybe" thing, and not a sure bet.

Are you in Toronto, or where? I had a similar experience to what you describe. About 3 years ago I took a job at a mobile start-up in Montreal. It was my first job after university and the salary I got was 35K CAD, with benefits, and some vague promises of options or something in the future. I didn't stay there long enough for any options, but the company was eventually bought out and some bonuses were given out to employees I think. Just a data point for you to compare to.

[bentlegen]

Are you in Toronto, or where?

Ah, I'm intentionally trying to be vague about my location for fear that my potential employers are looming over these very boards as we speak - chalk it up to paranoia on my part.

I had a similar experience to what you describe. About 3 years ago I took a job at a mobile start-up in Montreal. It was my first job after university and the salary I got was 35K CAD, with benefits, and some vague promises of options or something in the future. I didn't stay there long enough for any options, but the company was eventually bought out and some bonuses were given out to employees I think. Just a data point for you to compare to.

I appreciate you sharing your experience.

I don't know. I guess I've been viewing this as an opportunity to follow my childhood dream of becoming a professional games developer. It seems to me I'll never get an opportunity to work at one of the big boys (I've tried), and I'm not sure I have the drive/talent to do it completely on my own as you folks have -- yet. This job could be a good place to pick up some skills and carve out a career in the business. I'm young, relatively debt-free, live an affordable lifestyle, and can afford to take a chance. At least, that's how I'd been viewing it until I read this thread :)

Svero, you've made an excellent point. There has to be some kind of risk/reward. Yes, I'm willing to forego some salary to do something I enjoy, but there's a limit to that rule. I mean, what's the point of having a good job if you can't enjoy a good life outside of it too?

Honestly, I can't sleep - all this stuff is dancing in my head :(

[PoV]

I'm trying to ignore my bitterness of the industry. But as a new hire without industry experience, you don't have any leverage to demand anything beyond your wage. At least not yet. If making games is your life long dream and all that, this is an "IN" to the industry. The bigger companies will look at you for your years experience, and any specializations you have (things that'd be an asset to them, like AI, graphics, gameplay programmers). If you're as low risk as you say you are, then I'd say you have the right idea considering it. If you're unsure of a lot of things, a year in the industry will set you straight. Good experiences, or bad.

There's also buyouts too. Where a company grows to a certain point, and someone else buys them. Everybody seems to get a raise durring those. Mobile game is fast growing, and the Venture Capitalists love to throw money around at publishers for fun activities like that.

[FlySim]

Here's my understanding about stock options in startups:
- you are granted the right to buy X number of shares at a set price
- the shares vest over a period of years (usually 3-5)
- in early stages the shares should be really cheap ($0.05 - $0.10/share)
- generally you can not sell them till the company goes public or is bought
- its good to know the total number of shares
- dilution happens when a new investors comes in and they issue more stock, this is usually OK because hopefully the investor is willing to pay more than your option price.
- when the company gets really desperate for money, they may issue a new class of stock that has rights to the first money if the company is sold. Basically making you stock worthless.
- Don't know about Canadien taxes, but its a mess in the US. The worst is AMT, where you could end up paying taxes on worthless stocks.
- But I do know a few folks who made a pile of money on startup options.

[PoV]

Interesting. Thanks for expanding on that.

When we got stock at the one place I worked, they were on a foreign market, so as far as taxes go ... things worked out a little different. :D

[cliffski]

Stock options are useless in 99% of cases. I had options at Elixir and Lionhead. Quite a lot of them. When I looked miserable and was thinking of leaving, they always threw another big pile of stock options at me. I didn't even bother keeping track of how many I had, and of course, I left, so they were irrelevant.
My dad would always say that if a company says "we are giving you X and its worth £5k!" just say "I'll take £4.5k in cash now then". :D

[Pyabo]

So... they have a "large government grant", they have contracts in the pipe with established companies, and "they want to get wages up to industry average," but they're not willing to do it right now? AND they're not making up for that with up-front stock grants or options?

Alarm bells are ringing, my friend.

Demand what you are worth, or move on. It's that simple. These guys are looking for a mark and hoping you're it. Spineless people putting up with bullshit is how everyone at EA ended up in such crap jobs. I have very little sympathy for those people... they got exactly what they set themselves up for, and THIS is how it starts.

[PoV]

Ok, everyone says burn it. Who am I to argue. :p

[KNau]

IF you ever plan to work in a game studio then you're better to take the small job than to go for a gig at a corporate giant. The smaller guys have much more fun.

There's also something to be said about "staying hungry". If you are scraping by on your game development paycheck then you are probably more likely to make a go out of your independent development dreams. It's when you spend all day programming databases and live a nice comfortable middle-class lifestyle that it gets very hard to pursue a goal. Before you know it you'll have a house, kids and a mini-van to maintain and you won't have time for such stupid wastes of time (as your wife will no-doubt call them).

If you're young then you have time to struggle for something of value rather than just chasing a paycheck.

[bentlegen]

If you're young then you have time to struggle for something of value rather than just chasing a paycheck.

No, I'm aware of that, and it's probably my major motivation for going ahead with it.

But part of me worries that, by sacrificing those opportunities now, I may not get them again. I'm under the impression it's easier to get an entry-level job fresh out of college - for starters, I've got access to job postings aimed at students like me that aren't accessible on places like monster.com on workopolis or the funny pages. Of course, as I write that, it sounds kind of silly - surely more experience can only help? I'm not so sure.

[DrWilloughby]

From the original post, this sounds like a really bad deal. "Big Contracts" in the world of mobile games means nothing. The carriers/publishers have no loyalty, and those could disappear in a second.

NEVER trust a promise to get your salary up later unless you have it in writing. Most of the time, you will never get your money. If they ARE promising that, then they need to give you something else in the meantime, like stock options. Though in my experience, stock options at a tech startup are worth about one-tenth of their proposed value, because of dilution and odds of converting on them.

But if you are desperate for a way to break in I suppose you should consider it. It's probably also worth mentioning that perhaps your expectations for salary are too high. An entry level engineer making mobile games at a startup should expect about 35-40K (US), I would say.

Hope this helps.

[KNau]

On the other hand staying legitimatey in business for a few years means very much in this industry. Especially in mobile development.

In Canada for entry level positions at a startup you're looking $25,000 - $35,000 CAD. It's a tough slog if you're living in a place like Toronto.

But then again you can have your own Gemini award winning TV show in Canada and take home that much. For all the "Hollywood North" talk the pays here aren't even close to the US.

I remember a digital fx company that was paying their animators only $20,000 to start. That's insane but with Ryerson and Sheridan there are far more artists than there is demand. And people wonder why all the talent moves to the US.

[Sysiphus]

I work for mobile games company. And before, for Pc games. Other machines before. And anothe rone for pc.

All small, and well, about fun...No fun.Loads of responsability, really long hours, in some no sleep , even. Bigger companies are easier to get a respected hours, that is, if you keep firm at your rights. Which I finally managed almost totally with lots of efficiency+quality.(is a fact, they would not keep me. Is the job more competitive I ever did.Quite tiring after a time. )

It's very usual that companies look for young enthusiast , cheap fresh meat. All which I knew got burnt. And very wasted of this situation. I am seing all the time false promises. i suffered no less than 3 of those. Now I only trust in money in hand. And not little money.But what is a lot of money in some countries, seems is less in others...

If you enter so, your passion could die sooner than expected.Imho.

I'm of the opinion people in your situation should take better the better paid job, and do games on your own. You never do the games as you would like to once inside a company, at least in my experience, unless you are the boss, but in my experience, is more related to contacts than actual skills...And I know a pair of uber tallented coders (am an artist) that aren't having all the success they absolutely desverve (even a monument in some square) .No money, no joy.

I'd say, go by all means for solid, non exhausting jobs, specially if well paid.

And if u go for games, and get into that job after all, grow quick in your skills to become very necesary, and then become hard, and firm, and don't let no one ever again pay you little. be very prepared anyway in this business to move a lot...or get constantly this "deals", if not.

promises of those kind which I knew..never were true. But there seems to be allways be people to go for it, even telling them, and the bosses know well that.

I am now very highly valued at my company, and have a lot of responsability (20 workers?? and they can't pay you well? C'mon..I get averagely well paid -for my place- and we can be count with less than a hand's fingers... I have known bloated companies with lots of people not working very much...but also true that they surely have good and efficient workers..if they need to do many portings, it's logical then. )

I'm in the lines of Pyabo and svero, surely way much more extreme in that position. I'd love someone would have warned me 10 years ago or so. I'd recommend any young one to first cath a solid job that brings him money, save good amounts of it, and then , start a business, of something he enjoys (ie, games.Just not AAA Pc games, wouldn't be realistic) .Or even with a bunch of dollars and freedom to leave the profession, THEN take the risk wished. But in other situation, I have seen too many cases to near slavery, myself included.

If you think you certainly cant be happy without going for games, then go for it, but i too thought that way. Now I have done all graphic kind of tasks one could imagine in a game, and reached a lot of goals... And yet would change by all means for a solid, stable, and not so "moving" kind of job if could go back in the years...Also you end seing a lot of silly hierarchies, a lot of bad treatment and stuff. And well, for those having the opposity experience, having lived a wonderful one, my congratulations. Is not my case, I tell mine.

That said... I don't think this all is of any sense. Because one no good thing is to do important decissions based on other advices...Each has his/her experience, lives in different place, has different way to take things and bad moments, and most of all, your decission is yours, and you can end blaming a bit someone else if follow another's advice, and even worse, will have an small feeling it wasn't totally you deciding it fully...

Anyway, in life one have to think stuff very well, and be clever, allways. Even so, possibilities to getting the wrong road are very high, even more without thinking.

In my experience, with money in hand, and I mean, money as to be free to give your self a year or 2 of even not working at a company -but in your own projects etc- that is, having freedom for whatever , and not forced to stand certain kind of problematic persons, is quite beter thing to look for games jobs. One can be way selective then.

BTW, mobiles are changing a lot, all the time. I see it everyday at job. If there's something fast moving and unstable, this is. I don't know how of a solid value are them. And looking at consoles, and phone-consoles ;) late "fashions" and movements, even less...

However, you will decide just in your own, if you're lucky. My only good advice would be..."think it very well."

[Tom Gilleland]

Business Tip #1: All that really matters in life is Money! :eek:

(I'm kidding - mostly.) If you go get the high paying job, and put away a bunch of the money, then you can later self-fund your own project and do exactly what you want to do. (As others have already suggested.) You might even get a good job that has a few transferable skillsets. And if making games is "your passion" then just do that in your spare time. And then if it turns out that you are really good at it, you will be in the position to switch over to game development full-time. See the theme here, money is the "enabler". Also remember that being a game developer is probably not what you think it is. Working toward it on the side is a nice way to get started, and if you find that you never complete a game then that will tell you something very important. The main advantage I see for you working for peanuts at the small developer is to gain some experience, at the cost of being "un-enabled" to do anything with it. You can get this experience on your own by just doing it.

Tom

[Sillysoft]

In you want an "in" into the industry then this would definitely get you that for mobile jobs. I had my resume online with the words J2ME and BREW on it and kept getting contacted by recruiters because of this (mostly located in california). Even though I only had 6 months of experience, and wasn't actively seeking a job. People with experience working with mobile specific tech are in high demand it seems.

Although every later job would probably ask you what your previous salary was and price you according to that, so bear that in mind.

Like everyone has said, it's a trade off. Make a big list of the pros and cons of each job and them ruminate on it.

[Sysiphus]

People with experience working with mobile specific tech are in high demand it seems.

That sounded good to me. I suppose that happens more with programmers than with artists, for which is probably the opposite...I don't know...Have never been long time unemployed...

Anyway, I am unsure how much the "mobile phone games era" will last... What I see everyday is big license games, and carriers are more and more taking the absolute control of everything. I don't know how much time startups can keep surviving. As I said, I indeed have only worked in startups, (when worked in web/press design field, I worked in a pair of huge ones, with the style of huge companies. I don't like it, but gives way more sensation of stability...While in these fields, probably stability is just an illussion. I'd advice the best way for stability is saving money in the bank. )

BTW, someone said in the thread that once you get more money and stability, you get the bad habits, the children...Well, I don't, as don't have stability for that. And heck I'd really change my home projects, collaborations, etc, for that with no probs. When having high unstability, low money, etc, you arrive even more tired at home, you do way more hours a day...At the end, if you have stable job, you will do your projects when the time allows, but you will be able. Imho, one must be able to be organized, if not, nothing can be done, no matter the situation. And what is more, when you work in games from 8 to 10 hours a day, some days more, you really don't wanna see more pixels (to put an example) , nor 3d after all the day. Me at least. I do, but cost me a lot. While when I worked in othe rkind of jobs, was really impatient at job to get home and enjoy all my game graphics making.By far, working in those jobs, was when I was more productive in personal projects.

[dmikesell]

Business Tip #1: All that really matters in life is Money! :eek:

(I'm kidding - mostly.) If you go get the high paying job, and put away a bunch of the money, then you can later self-fund your own project and do exactly what you want to do. (As others have already suggested.) You might even get a good job that has a few transferable skillsets. And if making games is "your passion" then just do that in your spare time. And then if it turns out that you are really good at it, you will be in the position to switch over to game development full-time. See the theme here, money is the "enabler". Also remember that being a game developer is probably not what you think it is. Working toward it on the side is a nice way to get started, and if you find that you never complete a game then that will tell you something very important. The main advantage I see for you working for peanuts at the small developer is to gain some experience, at the cost of being "un-enabled" to do anything with it. You can get this experience on your own by just doing it.

Tom

Piggybacking on Tom's advice, calculate how much money you can make in 2 years at each job, as well as how much free time you'll have at each. Sounds like you'll have much more of both taking the "other" career path, which you can then parlay into an indie game of your own 2-3 years down the road. Live modestly, sock away the money, and work on your game ideas/education/etc. in your spare time.

[bentlegen]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Well, I have until Tuesday to decide, but I think I'm going to decline. It's just not enough risk/reward, I guess, and there's no guarantee I'll enjoy myself either. Still, all the same, I find myself thinking what might have been.

[robleong]

I agree with the advice that money is a great enabler. However, if you're still young, and you've all the time in the world, being paid little but at the same time garnering some experience in a game development shop might prove to be fun and interesting. You could consider doing it for six months or so, and then leave. It will at least give you some very relevant experience of game development, and you might find that that is not the life for you. Look to it as a sabbatical of sorts, so long as it does not take away your other options for a future, better-paid job later on. Good luck, and keep us informed of your final decision!

[UnknownGuy]

There is also the possibility on the turn down they would offer more.

[Pyabo]

Yup... it's not necessarily a yes/no situation. This is where the negotiation STARTS. But be firm. :)

[bentlegen]

I'd already tried to negotiate. As I'd mentioned, I don't believe they're looking for slave laborers here, but they just can't afford to pay anyone more, and won't. That's the price of a steady, if low, paycheque for their team.

[Pyabo]

In that case, you are doing the right thing by declining the offer. Get a better job and don't look back.