Corporate Layoffs and other reasons to be an indie...

[NothingLikeit]

Hello. I've had this question on my mind for a while now. It first came up when I noticed Midway Games and High Voltage were announcing lay offs. But the next week I saw articles in Gamasutra and Game Developer that said these very companies were looking to hire.

So what gives? Why would a company fire/lay off a large team of people and then start hiring for a new project?

Wouldn't they rather keep the team from the cancelled project and move them to the new one?

Do they do it to get newer/cheaper development talent?

I'm asking because I wonder would situations like this be something to avoid.

[Savant]

Fire the team, don't have to pay bonuses/make good on promises of extra vacation time. Aka: evil.

[cliffski]

spot on. last years dev team are knackered and jaded after realising the bonus promises were bull. so they fire them and get in some nieve(sp?) fresh faced C++ graduates to do the next game.
Sadly theres always a few geeks prepared to take the jobs.
happily, those companies that retain good staff with good pay and excellent bonuses do fabulously well. Its just most managers are too stupid to learn from them.

[steve bisson]

they dont have to pay raises too ? some companies i worked with also had probatory periods with significantly lower hourly rates.

6 months at 60% of the promissed salary saves them a bundle ;) it also takes a year or so before you can benifit from health / dental plans etc.

after a year or two you also feel more comfortable and get a little more lazy :D fresh employees are more productives ?

[Tom Gilleland]

I've heard that Midway has been doing this for some time now. I know a programmer who relocated his whole family from out of state, bought a house, worked a bit, got "downsized", lost the house and went bankrupt. Moved away and started over.

Do not work for Midway!

Tom

[digriz]

Sadly, all of the above comments are true. Except i don't know about working for midway, never have worked for them probably never will now.

I think it's safe to assume that no job is guaranteed or permanent in the games industry at the moment. In general, It tends to be the good people that get shafted and the useless ones that get promoted.

[lennard]

For good or bad, the real MO is to clear away the people who are perceived to be "dead wood". Under CA law, it's a bit of work to get rid of underperformers and this policy adds a layer of obfuscation. Theoretically somebody could sue them as what is essentially happening is they are being fired without their normal due process. On the other hand, I've personally been a beneficiary of Midway bonuses - long spent, sigh - and they still have some Karma stored up as far as I'm concerned. Game development in a big studio is high risk stuff and, in my experience, they don't get rid of people pulling their weight.

Not hoping I ever find myself back in corporate development again but I don't think Midway West were that bad of a shop while I was there. They did eventually go out of business so clearly not too many people were getting rich off the backs of well paid employees.

[Ricardo C]

I've heard that Midway has been doing this for some time now. I know a programmer who relocated his whole family from out of state, bought a house, worked a bit, got "downsized", lost the house and went bankrupt. Moved away and started over.

Do not work for Midway!

Tom

...

Makes EA sound downright altruistic.

[cliffski]

after a year or two you also feel more comfortable and get a little more lazy :D fresh employees are more productives ?

Nope not in a million years. Fresh employees with zero experience of big game development are probably a tenth to a twentieth as useful as a veteran. if Positech ever grew to need coders, I'd pay twice as much (easily) for a veteran with 3 or 4 finished games as I would for someone with none, and to be honest, I wouldnt even bother with someone with zero finished games.
Writing lots of code does not make you productive, nor does working long hours. Writing the right code, in the right way does, and that takes a LOT of experience.

[Jason Chong]

Sounds like these boys have learnt a lot from where I am from. hehehe.

The companies here do that all the time. They fire the experienced staff that commands higher wages in order to hire fresh cheap grads. Well they don't really fire, since there's a law against wrongful termination. What they do is make the environment so unbearable you have no choice but to resign. Hiring a total @sshole to be the manager does the trick, you get to kick out people without paying them compensation, by making them resign. The CEO is prevented from doing all these dirty work as the staff anger can be directed towards the bully manager.

Programmers/coders are considered commodity items here. There's no career path for coders and if you want to stay in the industry you'll eventually have to climb up the management ladder and be an @sshole yourself.

Being hardworking and skillful at what you do won't get you far here as an employee. It's how good you are at politics, apple polishing and all that. You can be a worthless no talent but if you know what to say to make your boss happy, you get paid a lot and get lotsa power to micromanage and piss off people who can really do work.

Many so called local game development companies are just fly by nighters, they come, they grab funds (tax payers money) and they disappear.

Their real motive isn't really to make profit/money from games. Many come up with well decorated business plans that could never be implemented because they couldn't manage creative/technical for squat and staff turnover is so high even in the already limited talent pool. Learning from the politicians, these so called 'game companies' just distribute wealth among themselves (management/ceo and high ranking MBA cronies) after getting the funds and then disappear after raising false hopes of staffs who were hoping for a career in game development. Staff were left disillusioned and cheated.

Some of these companies uses game development as excuse for tax evasion and money laundering purposes. Some wants to get into the hype because of the free money from the govt which is pretty easy to get if you're from a particular race. Some politicians lend their name to be on board of some game companies in order to get easier access to tax payer funds.

Corruption is a seriously huge problem in Malaysia that even the private sector has learnt that from our politicians as way of life and practices it fully.

[Anthony Flack]

And very few of these companies make any games worth playing. Most of the great games are made by veterans, often people who have benefitted from a corporate culture that allowed them to keep their team together for many years. Most often, in Japan.

[Gilzu]

Sounds like these boys have learnt a lot from where I am from. hehehe.

I don't know where youre from, but i've just read about the riots in paris about a legistlation for new workers.

Imagine that there its legal to fire someone after 2 years, bang, you're fired. No prior notice. No compensations whatsoever (AFAIK, most countries have laws saying you should recieve compensations after being fired in relation to the time you've worked).

Its not just the game industry, I'm afraid.

[soniCron]

Imagine that there its legal to fire someone after 2 years, bang, you're fired. No prior notice. No compensations whatsoever (AFAIK, most countries have laws saying you should recieve compensations after being fired in relation to the time you've worked). In my lengthy past researches into this matter, I discovered the following about the US: Provided you aren't a member of a union and your employer isn't breaching contract, anyone can fire you at any time for any reason and without compensation. There are only a small handful of states (Cali included) that have rather inefficient laws against this, but by and large, this goes unchecked. The federal government sees no reason to protect employee rights, in this regard, and I honestly can't say I blame them.

I have only seldom heard of cases in which the employee was actually pulling his or her own weight. Everyone thinks they're valuable. Whether that's a reflection of reality is another matter. That's not to say there aren't poorly run operations all over the place, but a just-fired employee usually doesn't have strong enough character to seriously question their own worth. What a country of self-centered... *grumbles off*

[Escapee]

I concur with Jason chong, The most effective way to climb up to high paid management job in corporate world of Malaysia (not limited to game industry) is to be a real asshole with big mouth.

Saying "I want this done by today" to your colleagues without knowing the technical difficulty behind the project is the best way to get yourself noticed by top management and eventually getting yourself promoted to be an official asshole.

Note : not applicable to Japanese companies as most of the Japanese managers are highly skilled, knowledgeable and Xtremely committed though poor in English communication

[svero]

Well.. not working for yourself generally sucks. I don't know how anyone can do it really. I don't think I'm capable of holding down a "regular" job anymore. If any of the people working for me happen to be reading this please understand that the above rule doesn't apply to you and that you are in fact very happy.

[NothingLikeit]

Wow this is a bigger problem than I thought. I was thinking I was simply a conspiracy nut. It can't be all that bad though can it? There are some studios that you never here about laying people off.

[NothingLikeit]

That's a good point about the "At Will Employment". Here in Illinois you can be let go for anything. In fact an employer doesn't even need a reason really.

[GameStudioD]

When working for someone else, you take on a certain amount of risk. I have been laid off from an employer and I have stayed way too long with others. In my experience, you need to have savings that will last you six months of not working and a clear plan about what you want out of the job (climb the ladder, gain experience or just collecting a paycheck). Otherwise, you will be blaming the boss or the company for your poor planning...

All these game developers who have been laid off should be dancing in the streets. Outside of game development, the job market for quality software engineers (at least in Silicon Valley) is hot...

[Sharkbait]

Some wants to get into the hype because of the free money from the govt which is pretty easy to get if you're from a particular race.

I'm quite surprised at hearing that. While my wife and I were enjoying our honeymoon in Malaysia we got constant propoganda from the tourist guides on the 'multi-cultural' strength of the country and I pretty much felt that it is one of the few places in the world where major ethnic/religous groups seem to live in relative harmony. I guess there's always a hidden not-so-rosy side! Anyway, I did note a slight measure of resemtment between races, for example, a Chinese taxi driver trying to dissuade my wife and I from visiting Arab Street or Little India in favour of visiting the Chinese Market to name one particular instance.

Anyway, getting back on topic, it is said to hear that this 'oppressive manager' attitude is still so predominant which is a real shame as no savings gained from replacing a highly paid veteran with a dirt cheap fresh graduate can really offset the experience and performance of the former. Besides, these short-sighted moves are also unjust towards long term employees that have committed themselves to the goals of a company and may also have financial commitments involving their next of kin.

[Escapee]

Sharkbait , Most of the Malaysian ppl are living under tolerance of unfair policies toward certain ethnicities, ironically , it's those unfair policies that create a "fairly balance" wealth distribution between the main ethnicity and others. If those unfair policies are taken away, there would probably be a drastic shift of wealth to certain sub-ethnicities, as a result, the balance would be disrupted and chaos would ensue.

Despite the difference in religious and cultural custom, Yes, we do live harmoniously together though there is still minor resentment toward each other.

The above is just my point of view.

[arcadetown]

Living in Los Angeles I hear a few stories from ex exployees. Project starts up, hire a bunch of guys, project ends, fire all but the best core, next project starts hire back the top ones you chucked away previously, burn through some more newbies.

Mix in many game companies can't see an exact picture of next project starts (games get delayed, canceled, etc) so the safest way to maximize profit and shareholder return is can most during slow times. Sucks but it's basically life in retail development.

[mpillit]

Well.. not working for yourself generally sucks. I don't know how anyone can do it really. I don't think I'm capable of holding down a "regular" job anymore. If any of the people working for me happen to be reading this please understand that the above rule doesn't apply to you and that you are in fact very happy.

I am very happy
I am very happy
I am very happy

Is it working yet?:confused:

[robleong]

Sharkbait , Most of the Malaysian ppl are living under tolerance of unfair policies toward certain ethnicities, ironically , it's those unfair policies that create a "fairly balance" wealth distribution between the main ethnicity and others. If those unfair policies are taken away, there would probably be a drastic shift of wealth to certain sub-ethnicities, as a result, the balance would be disrupted and chaos would ensue.

Despite the difference in religious and cultural custom, Yes, we do live harmoniously together though there is still minor resentment toward each other.

The above is just my point of view.
I left Malaysia because of just such racist policies. I thought, 25 years later, the racist problem would have resolved to a large extent, but how wrong I was; the country is just as racially polarized as it ever was.

Racist policies never work, and the sooner a fair and equitable system is set up, whereby the poor and downtrodden are given a helping hand, regardless of their race, the sooner the population in the country will become harmonious.

[Escapee]

Robleong, a fair and equitable system based on meritocracy is a dream in Malaysia. But a peaceful society without 513 style of riot is possible.

To be frank, I'm always thinking of leaving, possibly to China or Singapore in the future but how much i wish Malayisa would change to better side.

The bomoh boss here wants everything they see for free ...... ya know what i mean here .

Enough bad press for Malaysia .......:D Hey, Our great variety of food is still one of the best in Asia or possibly the world !! (a consolation) .

[NothingLikeit]

I am very happy
I am very happy
I am very happy

Is it working yet?:confused:

You forgot to click your heels together.

[robleong]

To be frank, I'm always thinking of leaving, possibly to China or Singapore in the future but how much i wish Malayisa would change to better side.

I gave up on that ideal a long time ago... :) Is meritocracy too much to ask for in any country?

[Pyabo]

I gave up on that ideal a long time ago... :) Is meritocracy too much to ask for in any country?

Some people call this... capitalism. :)

[Escapee]

I gave up on that ideal a long time ago... :) Is meritocracy too much to ask for in any country?

The fact that Proton (http://www.proton.com.my) still exists today tells us how difficult it's to get rid of absolute mediocrity here.

[Escapee]

Why did i start to browse for sites with this sort of content (http://www.fthisjob.com/) ?

[dmikesell]

Sadly, all of the above comments are true. Except i don't know about working for midway, never have worked for them probably never will now.


So though you know absolutely nothing of the situation at Midway, you can safely say that everything said about them is true? :rolleyes:

"Feeling aggrieved" has got to be this generation's favorite pasttime.

[mpillit]

You forgot to click your heels together.

Ahh, thats it! Im happy now. Thanks.

[digriz]

So though you know absolutely nothing of the situation at Midway, you can safely say that everything said about them is true? :rolleyes:

No, of course not.

[svero]

Ahh, thats it! Im happy now. Thanks.

Fewf... That was nearly big trouble. (mental note.. don't post anymore)

[mindor]

So what gives? Why would a company fire/lay off a large team of people and then start hiring for a new project?

Wouldn't they rather keep the team from the cancelled project and move them to the new one?

I may be over-simplifing this but there may have been a good reason for cancelling the project. The team as a whole may have been under-performing due to any number of reasons. So its easier to chop the whole thing off rather than try to figure out who is worth saving.
And even if they have people in-house that may be interested or appropriate for an opening, it would still make sense for them to at least open the position up to external applicants. You want to get the best talent you can get, and you never know who is going to apply.

-M

[NothingLikeit]

That makes some sense but it doesn't account for massive lay offs and then having "Come Work For Us" ads posted in next week's paper.

Oh and I'm not out to bash any company in particular I just used the previous examples since they were the two most recent that I heard about.