[ANN] Seth Godin at Google

[Savant]

I posted about this on my blog but I wanted to mention it here as it should be required viewing for anyone hoping to get noticed with a new product.

http://1goodgame.com/blog/

[Bmc]

very interesting, I'll have to look into some of his books

another good read for anyone out there interested in learning about marketing

22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, very good book

[RohoMech]

sweet! thanks for the post savant

[soniCron]

Excellent stuff. Seth's fantastic.

I'd like to point out a little something that should help some of you relate to what he was saying: This video itself is a perfect example of his message. He released a unique product (marketting seminar video) that is so good/unique/accessible/I-needed-this you feel compelled to share it with others and is in a format that's easy to share (no-plugins) and at no cost (on-line). And now we've just had a discussion (advertising) about him (a product), which is more meaningful (valuable) than any traditional advertising and cost nothing (free). That, my friends, is what he's talking about. (And another vote for the web as a gaming platform! :))

Video problems: Try resizing the video. (Click the down arrow on the far right, bottom of the Flash player.) The "Stretch" mode sometimes slows down a lot.

[svero]

Well there goes another 48 mins of my life wasted. Sonicron, maybe you could post an address or something so I could send you a bill.

Let me just sum up the video for people that have businesses to run while they're not screwing around watching videos.

"Make a product people want that is worth mentioning to their friends."

- S

PS: How many people here before watching this video were working on stuff they hoped would be boring unremarkable and unwanted?

[soniCron]

Sonicron, maybe you could post an address or something so I could send you a bill. What did I do? :confused:

[svero]

What did I do? :confused:

Oops.. I thought you started the thread! hehe.. err.. give me Savant's address then :-)

[Sharpfish]

give me Savant's address then :-)

Apparently it is being withheld by the clone-police in the interests of public safety. :)


I watched the vid last night btw! It was a little google-centric (of course) but was easily translatable into "your brand" "your product". A lot of it made sense but most of it re-affirmed your beliefs rather than redefine them imo.

[Savant]

PS: How many people here before watching this video were working on stuff they hoped would be boring unremarkable and unwanted?
Every single developer working on a clone? Every single developer working on a game that offers nothing new and will not stand out in the sea of casual games? Everyone working on a "me too" game?

Come on, what he's saying is HIGHLY relevant to this community.

And not even just for development, but for marketing as well. How many here are planning the usual "submit to portals, submit to 1000 shareware sites, issue a press release, sit back and wait for profits" marketing campaign? I'd imagine quite a few. Seth is a goldmine of incredibly valuable information and concepts if people would only listen.

[svero]

Every single developer working on a clone? Every single developer working on a game that offers nothing new and will not stand out in the sea of casual games? Everyone working on a "me too" game?
Come on, what he's saying is HIGHLY relevant to this community.


There may be a few really cynical devs who are just purely cloning to leech some sales off a popular genre. But those people have a sound business strategy, even if you dont like it. They will make money doing that. It's not great for the dev community in general but so be it.

Now with regards to anyone making a product they hope will sell on it's own merit I'd argue that even the people making things that don't excite you are thinking that their game is in some way unique and valuable. Nobody sets out to make something boring or uninteresting on purpose.

[Savant]

Nobody sets out to make something boring or uninteresting on purpose.
No, but they very often do. Attitudes like what Seth is preaching would help to open their eyes to that fact before they spend the time/effort/money to pump out another boring/average game that will be forgotten in a week.

To paraphrase something he said, "Determine what is remarkable about your product and focus on that. If you can't find anything remarkable, start over."

And, just so we're clear, remarkable doesn't have to mean innovative, new, or genre defining. It simply has to be something worth making a remark about to your friends. There aren't many indie games that I bother to tell anyone about because they simply aren't worth remarking on.

Love Chess is a fabulous example of this concept. Chess isn't a new concept but the way he's presented it is remarkable. I'd wager more people have heard about his chess game than any other indie chess game.

[svero]

Well to me so much of this marketing guru seminar and book stuff seems very common sensical. Seth isn't wrong, but I can't see it as all that eye opening personally. I won't claim that I do it well myself or that I do all Id like to, but my limits tend to be more time and resource based than idea based. I really just dont get the level of gushing over this stuff. It's a little mystical to me.

[Savant]

Well, maybe you already know all of this stuff and, if so, that's awesome! Congrats! But many, many people don't and still subscribe to the old models. I post this sort of stuff for their benefit.

Besides, if it was common sense we'd see a lot fewer mistakes being made out there in indie land. And Seth would be out of a job. :P

[svero]

Well I *know* it in the same way I know I shouldnt jump off a tall building or step in front of a bus. It just doesnt seem particularly like anything that requires teaching is all. I dont know what an old model is. I don't know anything about marketing at all. But when someone says to me.. hey make your product really cool or unusual in some way.. well I just don't know how to react to that? Certainly it wouldnt get excited and spend a lot of money on some lecture tapes. I'd say yeah.. that's true.

[Anthony Flack]

I have some more advice. Be talented. If you're already talented, be more talented.

[svero]

I have the entire Flack series of tapes and Im attending his cruise ship lecture series in the spring!

[Savant]

Remember guys that Seth isn't charging for this stuff, aside from the books he writes (and even then he often donates the proceeds to charity). The video is free, his blog is free, and his advice is useful and relevant.

The concept of permission marketing alone is worth advocating his work. Oh well...

[svero]

Sorry :-) Well if it works for you go for it. For my part, marketing in general has always been a bee in my bonnet. The whole industry of these public speaking guys has always struck me as very cult-like.

[Anthony Flack]

My advice is free too. Have you gotten more talented yet?

[baegsi]

I find Seth's writing quite entertaining. I particuarly liked his Bootstrapper-Bible.

However, I'm really tired of statements like "xyz is a must read, it tells you all you need to know" etc.

The thing is: it is still very hard to make practical use of such broad advice. You may get a little more sensitive to this subject, but that's all. You still have to go the whole way, making your own faults etc. No shortcut here.

My free advice: don't read too much about business (unless for entertaining purposes), because it makes you believe that doing business is a complex thing to do, where in fact it is something very very simple. Note: I said simple, not easy. It's just a matter of finding your own way. And that takes time and practice, lots of (for most people).

[Savant]

Sky diving is also very, very simple. However, it's important to do it properly.

[ErikH2000]

I've done this several times. On a leisurely Sunday afternoon, head over to Barnes and Noble with the aim to learn something new and insightful about marketing. I just go to that section of the book store and skim through the titles, pulling out books that look possibly good.

The best I've ever found are books that could have been compressed into pamphlets. For example, with Godin's permission-based marketing, he could have said, without much fanfare and in about 10 pages, that there are different levels of trust to achieve with customers and it is useful to take small steps in gaining permission. So basically, what should have been a magazine article or a blog entry got dumped into a book with a horrific amount of padding.

The worst books are more like a pep talk or ego-stroking activity for the person reading them. They tend to have titles that use war or sports metaphors. They are full of nifty anecdotes about some golf game the author played with Ted Turner. The chapters will have punchy titles like "The Three Ways Your Lunch Is Getting Eaten As We Speak". The guy writing will make overdramatic points and save his credibility at the last second by inserting hedge words, i.e. "nearly every", "in most situations". The books are often written in a conversational style that reminds me of a football coach or some slightly drunk travelling salesman in an airport bar.

99% of marketing books are just bad. And I think it might be 100%, because I haven't read a really good one yet, even though I want to.

-Erik

[mahlzeit]

But when someone says to me.. hey make your product really cool or unusual in some way.. well I just don't know how to react to that?
Cool or unusual how? The issue is that lots of high-tech companies think building cool tech is enough. I worked at a company once where we built a kick-ass solution to a problem that no one perceived they had. Try selling that. That's why casual games are so hot: someone figured out how to sell games to people who didn't (don't?) consider themselves game players.

On the other hand, marketers don't know what they are doing (and have never known), so it's no wonder they flock to people like Seth Godin, hoping that he will have The Answer. He is the Tony Robbins of marketing. ;)

[svero]

Cool or unusual how? The issue is that lots of high-tech companies think building cool tech is enough...

But that's the point I was making. It's not generally practical or useful. You get this sort of very general obvious statement..

Guru : "hey make somehting really neat that people want and spreads easily by word of mouth for some reason"

Me : "Great! That's clearly correct. I agree. So now, how do I approach that given my time and budget contraints? How can I change what I'm doing now to be more like that?"

If there was any real answer to the 2nd question rest assured we'd all be doing it! (or at the very least the marketing gurus would be doing it and owning google instead of giving speeches to them) It's what Anthony said. Be more talented. It's the how do I be more talented part that's tricky.

[Savant]

I disagree. He's giving you the tools you need. He's not simply saying, "Make something cool". He's saying, "Make something remarkable". Make something worth talking about so people wilol talk about it and tell their friends. Make something that gets better the more people are using it. The rest is cake.

There's a disconnect between what you guys are hearing him say and what he's actually saying.

[ErikH2000]

I disagree. He's giving you the tools you need. He's not simply saying, "Make something cool". He's saying, "Make something remarkable". Make something worth talking about so people wilol talk about it and tell their friends.
That's a fair point, but another one of those things that is worth a few paragraphs instead of a chapter. I'm guessing a game like Dope Farmer got talked about a lot because it's more interesting to tell your friends that you found a game about growing pot than it is to say you found a game about growing corn. Both games could be equally fun to play, but Dope Farmer has the curious theme which helps word-of-mouth spread.

It seems like a person could start at the outset of game development trying to brainstorm a premise or gimmick that would get a game talked about. Then proceed to make a game based on that. You hear Thomas Warfield and others occasionally recommend the classic "find a need and fill it" approach, but since games aren't really about needs, maybe you want to find something worth talking about and build it. Of course, that's easier said than done, and a little like saying "be more talented".

And I'm still stuck in the old-fashioned rut of the "find a game I myself enjoy playing and build it" approach. ;)

-Erik

[Tom Cain]

Godin's books are good if you don't know anything about marketing and want an easy overview to modern concepts. I recommend them to people because they are usually easier to understand than other marketing books. (I think Joe's book is going to be easier and more relavant for us when he finishes it.)

The problem from our perspective is that Godin's core target audience is middle managers and under in large companies. Ideas passed through the bureaucracy of a large company usually get watered down in an effort to capture the widest possible audience in the safest way. He advocates changing this.

An indie developer doesn't have this problem. A lot of what he says doesn't seem to apply, especially if you started 5-10 years ago when the indie mantra was "make something different", because you are already thinking of unusual or remarkable games. But you can still pick up some usable things in his books.

What he's saying is true. But standing out from the crowd means there must be a crowd. Most of our products will make up the crowd.

[JPGinLA]

@ErikH: Actually, Thomas Warfield chronicled his success with making a game that filled a need when he made a Spider Solitaire game for Win 3. I don't have a link, so maybe he'll post it for you - it is a good read and relevant! And similar opportunities still exist and will continue to exist. Of course, that advice (and Godin's insight) is only relevant if one of your goals with game development is to make money.

-JPG

[ErikH2000]

@ErikH: Actually, Thomas Warfield chronicled his success with making a game that filled a need when he made a Spider Solitaire game for Win 3.
Sure, that is what I was thinking of when I mentioned him. He gave an example of a game that filled a need (or strong desire). I think it was a really cool article, but I'm skeptical of using it as a general approach to finding lucrative game ideas. I mean you could convince yourself that since both zuma games and dogs are popular, and there are currently no games featuring both aspects, that a zuma dog game is desperately wanted. Then you go make the thing and find it bombs. Of course, if you are lucky and it sells well, then you will get some idea that you're a marketing genius. But maybe you were just stupid-lucky. And maybe Thomas was just stupid-lucky with his game. I dunno. He does seem pretty smart. But I think there is a certain go-forwardness about people like him or Pavlina that prevails over any bad judgments they make in the end. We can mistakenly attribute knowledge and insights to their success, and think we'll do well by copying it. Better to just copy that machinelike persistence (if you can!) and get a lot of shit done.

I don't have a link, so maybe he'll post it for you - it is a good read and relevant! And similar opportunities still exist and will continue to exist. Of course, that advice (and Godin's insight) is only relevant if one of your goals with game development is to make money.
I don't want to come across as someone disinterested in making money. I just have skepticism for a marketing-based approach to choosing what kind of games you will make. It seems possible to find that genius insight through marketing, but the vague advice offered by experts like Godin about choosing a "remarkable" product probably isn't worth thinking about for more than 30 seconds.

The real problem is coming up with the remarkable quality in your game. I.e. what marketing advice would give you the idea to make all your sprites look like they were made out of clay like Squashy did? Well, now you can look at Platypus and rip off the idea as part of your "market research" if you like. But it will no longer have that "remarkable" quality Godin is talking about, because Squashy already did it. So who cares if he says you should make something remarkable? Big deal.

You could take the more straightforward and bland approach to finding a profitable type of game with careful analysis of what is currently successful. That's more likely to guide you to a lucrative game. But that game is going to be a clone, because market analysis does not equal creativity. If you enjoy making clones, then I guess it's an okay choice. But speaking for myself, before I justified making clone games as a means to an end, I would look at some better ways to make money than games. I mean, if you are already willing to put the projects you care about on the back burner, then at least be efficient about selling out, right? It's generally agreed that other kinds of shareware than games are more profitable.

Hell, that day job you want to leave is probably more profitable. So you might as well be a wageslave for five more years, save up $100k and then make the game you were really dreaming about.

-Erik

[Savant]

The real problem is coming up with the remarkable quality in your game. I.e. what marketing advice would give you the idea to make all your sprites look like they were made out of clay like Squashy did? Well, now you can look at Platypus and rip off the idea as part of your "market research" if you like. But it will no longer have that "remarkable" quality Godin is talking about, because Squashy already did it. So who cares if he says you should make something remarkable? Big deal.
What advice would lead you to the clay figures? That's exactly what Godin is talking about. The claymation graphics were unique and worth making a remark about! Perfect. Done.

If Platypus didn't have those graphics I doubt anyone would still be talking about it today.

[Chris Evans]

Yeah, making clay figurines sounds just like your second example of making clones...

[ErikH2000]

What advice would lead you to the clay figures? That's exactly what Godin is talking about. The claymation graphics were unique and worth making a remark about! Perfect. Done.
Yeah, we're in agreement here. But we'd all probably gain more insight asking people like Anthony Flack how they come up with their ideas than meditating on Godin's vague advice. It's good advice--just not specific enough to be very valuable.

Thankfully, I have all the ideas in the world that I need. Just not enough time and resources to implement them. And no reliable way of telling at the outset which ideas are more likely to produce successful games.

-Erik

[ErikH2000]

Yeah, making clay figurines sounds just like your second example of making clones...
It's possible to innovate with theme as well as game design. There are just less examples of theme innovation that seem substantial enough to admire.

-Erik

[Tom Cain]

Thankfully, I have all the ideas in the world that I need. Just not enough time and resources to implement them. And no reliable way of telling at the outset which ideas are more likely to produce successful games.I think this is a good summary of the marketing problem indies face.

The modern marketing writers say outright that you can't know for sure what ideas are good until they hit the market. They are trying to convince large companies to foster internal creativity, which increases the chances of producing a good idea, and to move their huge 1980s-style advertising budgets into R&D, which increases the number of ideas produced. Indies already foster creativity and have no ad budgets to move around, thus the general advice is hard for us to use.

On the other hand, most indies don't need a marketing "hit" to do well. I think pursuing Anthony's advice really can provide a good living.

[Chris Evans]

But we'd all probably gain more insight asking people like Anthony Flack how they come up with their ideas than meditating on Godin's vague advice. It's good advice--just not specific enough to be very valuable.



I don't know... While vague advice may not be specific, but specific advice may not be relevant. I don't think you're ever going to get a one-size fits all specific marketing advice that you're looking for. Anthony Flack can tell you about his experience making the graphics for Platypus. Thomas Warfield can tell you his experience creating and selling the Spider Solitaire software. These may be very interesting stories to hear, but is it really that more "valuable" than the broad marketing advice?

I personally believe with both marketing books/writers and case studies (ie. developer's experiences), you take the useful nuggets you can find (if any) and apply them if relevant. For example, the nugget I got out this Seth Godin video is provide a "story" for people to tell. Normally around here we just think that making the game good enough will boost word of mouth. Or maybe just slapping on a Internet hi-score system to our games will make them tell a friend.

I've always thought about having a "hook" or unique selling point with my games, but that's not necessarily the same thing as giving the user a story to tell to other people. Gimmick is considered a dirty word, usually for something shallow and controversial. But maybe instead of gimmicks, we should think of having "talking" points for our games. If it happens to be your unique feature, all the better.


Thankfully, I have all the ideas in the world that I need. Just not enough time and resources to implement them. And no reliable way of telling at the outset which ideas are more likely to produce successful games.


Maybe some of you are already marketing geniuses so you're above all marketing advice from non-programmers. But I'm always on the lookout for little small nuggets whether it's in a book or from a developer on this forum. Sure we all have ideas, but ideas are a dime a dozen and most of them suck. If we all have such great ideas, then why are a huge majority of developers here struggling to sell a few copies a day (or even a week)? Why do the majority of devs here have such low traffic to their website? How come the majority of the games are completely unknown outside our little circle here? With a few notable exceptions, I seriously don't think it's just a matter of "too many ideas", "too little resources/time". I think some of us give ourselves too much credit... ;)

I realize there is a backlash against marketing writers/books on this forum partly because Steve Palivina has gone off on the deep end a bit. Sure those marketing books may not change your sales overnight or be very useful when knee deep in development of an existing game. But I think some of it can be useful when you're starting a new game and trying to decide what game idea you'll choose from you design notebook.

Tom Cain has posted on these boards some great marketing techniques for boosting newsletter signups. I know Svero likes this kind of stuff because it's quick, cut and dry and it's easy to test. But mid/long term marketing is also important. Unfortunately mid/long term marketing by its very nature is very hard to test and verify. Yet, it doesn't make it any less important. This is where I think marketing material (such as this Seth Godin video) can be useful, especially in the conceptual stage. If you're close-minded to something of course it's going to seem useless.

[Tom Cain]

But mid/long term marketing is also important. Unfortunately mid/long term marketing by its very nature is very hard to test and verify. Yet, it doesn't make it any less important. This is where I think marketing material (such as this Seth Godin video) can be useful, especially in the conceptual stage.
Being unable to test and verify was how those of us in the ad agency business made good money through the 90s - no one knew if any of it was working. :)

Here's a list of books that can teach you concepts for mid- and long-term marketing planning. I recommend reading them in chronological order, and twice through the sequence helps a lot.

Positioning - Ries & Trout
Crossing the Chasm - Moore
Unleashing the Ideavirus - Godin
Purple Cow - Godin
All Marketers are Liars - Godin

There are lots of other books, of course, but I've found these to contain the best explanation of the principles. The things Godin talks about in the video are fleshed out more in these books. They really can help you shape long-term goals for your company.

[Savant]

As an example of the sort of thing Seth advocates, this is an example of an 'edge':

http://www.solavant.com/

Nice work, Tom! :)

They are specifically marketing to people who want a hard solitaire game. They aren't interested in the casual players - they want the experts. The player will feel smart for having bought the game and that's half the battle.

I love what they've done on the right side as well. They've expanded the standard "tell a friend" feature into a way for people to feel like they are letting their friends in on something AND get a discount at the same time.

"Got smart friends?" Love it.

Plus, since they're on the Mac exclusively they're already in a more elitest environment. Great story and positioning.

[lakibuk]

Positioning - Ries & Trout ...

How suited are these books for small indies like us?
Don't they deal with big topics like making a brand, which is only interesting to big companies?

[Savant]

Positioning is a vital concept if you're hoping for long term success. That book is, honestly, a little dry but the concept is an important one.

[Tom Cain]

How suited are these books for small indies like us?
Don't they deal with big topics like making a brand, which is only interesting to big companies?
Yes, Positioning is largely about building brands. But branding concepts can be used by indies. "Bejewelled" is a valuable brand, for instance.

The other books can be better applied to individual products, but they build on the ideas in Positioning and are easier to understand if you read it first.

For the record, I don't think it's necessary to have a deep understanding of marketing if you can naturally create interesting games and have confidence in your ideas. You're already doing a lot of what's in these books. (I'm not talking about myself, I doubt every game idea I've ever come up with.)

[Cartman]

Personally I like Seth's books. Like all marketing books I find that some of their concepts are vague and need to be thought about before you can glean something helpful out of them. However I find that they do spark good marketing ideas for me to try and see how they work.

Marketing books remind me of the Dr. Phil show.(don't laugh :)) Dr. Phil doesn't tell you anything you don't already know, or that his guests don't already know. He just drills in the main points that you should be focused on. Most of us may look at this and go "duh", but sometimes people just need a reinforcing kick in the pants to actually take that advice and do something with it. Or to think outside of the box and figure out how it applies to what their goals are.