Can shooters sell?

[svero]

MOVED FROM REFLEXIVES THREAD....

Not another puzzle inlay clone!! :(

Aside from that.. the game looks to have outstanding production values, stuff that AAA 2D titles have. So I'm very impressed with the graphics, I bet it plays smooth as well. It will do very well in sales I'm afraid. Although, I must admit, I'm dead sick of puzzle games selling!

So make a *great* shooter then. To my mind there haven't been ANY great shooters since Platypus. And Platypus, btw, sold very well. You might say.. well Phoenicus is great, or Titan attacks is great, or Nexics mutant tank Rat (:-P) game is great, and I might agree and say yeah those are great in their own way, but none of them really go the extra mile and match the level of polish and accessibility that something like Luxor or MCF Huntsville brings to the table. On some levels it's like shooters are only being made by less professional developers who have smaller budgets or something. Where's the real top level professionalism and production for that kind of game? I see a lot of corner cutting and so so production values in the shooters that are released. Show me a shooter that comes close to Luxor's production values and Ill probably show you a shooter that sells pretty good. Certainly Platypus proved the genre itself isn't hopeless. You just need to really bring something great to the table.

[Grey Alien]

Not wishing to dertail the thread too much but Jets'n'Guns has great production values I think. Don't know how well it sells though.

[svero]

Not wishing to dertail the thread too much but Jets'n'Guns has great production values I think. Don't know how well it sells though.

This is the wrong thread so if someone wants to discuss it further then I suggest we move it to another thread. That being said, IMHO I think Jets n Guns is another example of a so so shooter game that doesn't approach the production values and accessability of top casual sellers.

[Leper]

On some levels it's like shooters are only being made by less professional developers who have smaller budgets or something. Where's the real top level professionalism and production for that kind of game? I see a lot of corner cutting and so so production values in the shooters that are released. Show me a shooter that comes close to Luxor's production values and Ill probably show you a shooter that sells pretty good. Certainly Platypus proved the genre itself isn't hopeless. You just need to really bring something great to the table.

I agree mostly, although there are some really good ones on Reflexive but they're *cough* too easy *cough* (they're easier than water bugs, platypus, and puzzle games!) so they dont sell as well as they could.. at any rate. I agree with you.. That's what www.shmup-dev.com is all about (shameless plug!) and hopefully we'll all come together and turn this genre around to something fierce within 18 to 24 months.

[Gilzu]

MOVED FROM REFLEXIVES THREAD....



So make a *great* shooter then. To my mind there haven't been ANY great shooters since Platypus. And Platypus, btw, sold very well. You might say.. well Phoenicus is great, or Titan attacks is great, or Nexics mutant tank Rat (:-P) game is great, and I might agree and say yeah those are great in their own way, but none of them really go the extra mile and match the level of polish and accessibility that something like Luxor or MCF Huntsville brings to the table. On some levels it's like shooters are only being made by less professional developers who have smaller budgets or something. Where's the real top level professionalism and production for that kind of game? I see a lot of corner cutting and so so production values in the shooters that are released. Show me a shooter that comes close to Luxor's production values and Ill probably show you a shooter that sells pretty good. Certainly Platypus proved the genre itself isn't hopeless. You just need to really bring something great to the table.

I'm thinking about the exact same thing. While other games are saturating each genre right now, I can give you 3-4 who stand out in each one. But when it comes to shooters, while there are tons of them out there, none really makes it to that 3-4 genre defining games. I'm talking about games that come out and justify why this genre exist.

Sure. If a decent SHmUP will come out with a great graphics, good mechanics, sound, solid design and gameplay and good publishing - even with a bad uverused "save the world from aliens" - It can be a smashing success.

Heck, I think I've just been convinced of making one.

[princec]

Ultratron sells really well, when it gets any exposure.

Cas :)

[simonh]

I think one of the reasons Platypus did so well is that it was a shoot-em-up which was colourful and cheerful and just generally shouted "FUN!", unlike most shoot-em-ups which go for the dark sci-fi or space thing and tend to shout "SERIOUS!".

Why isn't there more colourful shoot-em-ups? Like svero I think there is the potential to do very well there.

[Nexic]

Dunno if anyone has seen Alien Stars (by awem), that's pretty good. But yeh I agree svero, there are no shooters which are really doing what they should. And I think you are right, shooters are something that people seem to do as their first project, get cruddy sales, think there is no money to be had and start making match-3s. I think anyone staying on to do just shooters is pretty rare, the only people I know who have is me and Cas.

But to be totally honest, a shooter is *much* more complex to make than ANY match-3. There are so many more factors to tweak and get perfect, which is a big reason why shooters never seem to be as polished as casual puzzle titles. I'm not saying I personally work harder on my games than people who work on puzzlers, but what I am saying is that it takes more work in order to reach that high level of polish and perfection in the shooter genre.

All of these excuses doesn't mean I'm not going to try and make a genre defining shmup, but Luxor esc polish just probably isn't going to happen in any game anytime soon, unless a larger company decides to work on something like this. Which they probably won't, as everyone knows (or rather thinks) there is no money in shooters...

[Mike Boeh]

Bugatron doesn't sell well now, but it certainly used to.

[Leper]

Excerpts from a thread, labeled Molding a shooter into the casual Market (http://www.shmup-dev.com/index.php?topic=33.msg93#msg93)

Shareware as a concept and a business model existed long before the portals and Platypus existed. Thats my point over the "best ever" statement. As did shareware shooters. I'm not arguing or denying that Platypus does well for Retro64, but it is a relatively recent downloadable product - maybe in a few years this will be unarguably the case but, as neither of us has anything but second hand opinions to go on, its not a point I'll labour too much as neither of us can prove our argument either way and therefor, a little futile debating it.

I do worry about holding up a product where the author no longer retains the rights to it as an ideal model to work towards a little bit disturbing though. Having said that, if Anthony ever finishes Cletus Clay, from what I've heard - it'll be storming.
-Oddbob


As for why it sold so well - firstly, Mike (it's Mike, not Chris) knows his business really well. Secondly, it was easily adapted to mouse control and only needed one fire button. But it was so much NOT a casual game in so many ways. It was too hard, even on easy. It had no player profiles. The restart points were miles away. You couldn't even save your game and resume it later. But it still did well. I think it was mostly the graphics that did it; simple as that. It's fun to look at. It's accessible. I was sick of serious, techy-looking space shooters. I wanted a game that made me feel happy, like Fantasy Zone made me feel happy. I think this resonated with people.
-Anthony Flack

[Mike Boeh]

Atomaders did well on portal top 10 lists too....

[simonh]

Just out of interest Mike why was Platypus taken off your site? Had it stopped selling?

[Bmc]

Just out of interest Mike why was Platypus taken off your site? Had it stopped selling?

I noticed that too, so I went to squashy software's site and it's not there anymore either, but Flack explains why and I have to say I feel quite bad for him...

[Mike Boeh]

Our agreement with Idigicon has expired for Platypus. It should be back on Retro64.com shortly.

[Nexic]

I think the license has changed hands.

[Nexic]

Atomaders did well on portal top 10 lists too....



And yet it doesn't convert too well now. Do you think Real would accept Atomaders if it had been released in 2006? I doubt it. Just goes to show how much the market has changed since then, and maybe even how much it has changed since Platypus first came out.

Bugatron doesn't sell well now, but it certainly used to.

[Mike Boeh]

Anyway, as the topic says, I certainly wouldn't choose to make a shooter if I was starting a game from scratch. We have a Bugatron sequel on the way, but it does use the existing codebase, so it's a relatively short project.

As for all the "features" Platypus is missing, I have yet to see anything prove to me that user accounts affect sales... Bricks of Atlantis beats the pants off of many breakout games that use accounts, but it doesn't have'em. I think they're very minor in the overall success of a game.

[Bmc]

Do you think Real would accept Atomaders if it had been released in 2006? I doubt it.

Why don't you think they would?

[Nexic]

I'm guessing they wouldn't because it looks dated, has dark unfriendly graphics, has no profiles, is too hard. No I don't know it for an absolute fact, but my best guess based upon games they have published since then, is that they wouldn't.

A lot of those reasons I gave above are the same reasons why RealArcade didn't accept some of my earlier games. Yes they told me that directly.

[svero]

See for my part Im not so sure Atomaders wouldnt do well today. I agree that its darker and less colorful than what Id like to see, but I dont know if the audience has really changed all that much since Atomaders was first released.

I think one quote posted above is telling through. Anthony wrote something to the effect that Mike, when modding and re-releasing platypus, knew the market really well. I think that's a key point that's missing with a lot of shooters. Mike B, kinda knows what's important with the market. He's always thinking about the market in terms of basic principles. It should be mouse driven, the download shouldnt be too large etc...

A lot of shooter makers seem to ignore that stuff and instead use the principal.. it shoudl be exactly as hard dark scary and filled with explosions as every nightmare I had in the 1980's after playing galaxian and operate like I had an xbox controller coming out of my PC. And by that I dont mean that a shooter, to work in today's market, has to be dumbed down or firing at things that look like dweep on a field of stars and rainbows. I don't think that's necessarily the case. But there should probably be a bit more thought going into the designs. So much of the shooter art I see (and Im guilty of this with my own games for sure) is a little gamey or generic. A starfield with a blue nebula and some little typical ships etc... None if it is really going the extra mile. And then to top that off once you do get into the game the interface is some horrible mess where you have to click 30 buttons to get playing after you've equipped you ship and you cant save your game, and there's no sliders for the sound volume, and the text is like pink on a purple background with each letter being 3 pixels high etc... Its awful and not just for more casual players but also for me, who happens to really like playing shooters.

Lastly I'll say this.. One of the reasons I believe bigger companies aren't approaching shooters is that, in fact, they probably don't and never will sell as well as a more generic game like Bejeweled 2. There probably is some limit. So for a bigger company it may not make sense to make a shooter. However for smaller guys I think the potential to make several hundred thousand from a shooter and hit a few top 10 lists is definitely there. Keep in mind too that part of the reason for this limit, aside from more generic things always having the potential to appeal to a bigger audience, is that the audience that frequents the portals is not representative of the gaming population. Portals have, through the games they release and through advertising, skewed their audiences towards players who like certain kinds of games. I believe there is enough overlap for a good shooter to do very well, and certainly well enough for it to be worth the while of a lot of indies, but there is also probably a kind of a built in upper limit to the sales you can achieve given the structure of todays download market.

[Jason Chong]

Shooters do sell I think, but you'll have to benchmark with the Japanese, they're aces in this area, and even till today, it's difficult to beat many shooters from the SNES/Genesis platform.

How many PC versions of Irem/Konami/Capcom/Treasure quality shooters can you find ?

Just want to add, PC developers for shooters have a notorious bad habit of extending levels and providing mediocre gameplay.

Too much focus is in quantity of the levels instead of quality.


Most quality shooters max out at levels 6 or 8.

PC developers try to extend it beyond 20 and each levels are piss poor in terms of quality in my opinion.

What's the point of having 20 levels and average bosses when you can have just 8 levels and 8 quality bosses ?

Trying to play the numbers games to attract buyers in terms of level quantity, makes your game incomparable in quality to the console shooters.

[Anthony Flack]

One of the big problems with making a shooter, from a developer's point of view, is the volume of content. Many people have said Platypus was too short, but it's still about 40 minutes long, and every 30 seconds or so something new happens. And every single event in that 40 minutes of play time is hand-scripted. It takes forever.

You can cut corners with this, but that tends to produce those bland, mediocre levels that Jason complains about. Even though I tried my best with Platypus, it has also been said that the content was over-extended there too.

As for all the "features" Platypus is missing, I have yet to see anything prove to me that user accounts affect sales... Bricks of Atlantis beats the pants off of many breakout games that use accounts, but it doesn't have'em. I think they're very minor in the overall success of a game.

I think that user accounts just facilitate jumping in and out of games easily, picking up where you left off and all that. And it lets you have more fun with collectables and milestones and those little motivational things. You could do it with just a single account, but I like to accommodate people who want to share the game with others who use the same computer.

[Nexic]

One of the big problems with making a shooter, from a developer's point of view, is the volume of content. Many people have said Platypus was too short, but it's still about 40 minutes long, and every 30 seconds or so something new happens. And every single event in that 40 minutes of play time is hand-scripted. It takes forever.


It really is a hard one, Mighty Rodent has a large number of enemies, most of which do insteresting and new things, but so many people say the game is bland because I've streched it out into like 4 hours of gameplay (and yet people are still saying it's too short). I'm starting to lean towards the idea of making something shorter and harder.

Just as an example I bought Gradius V yesterday, I've been playing it for hours on end, and I still haven't gotten past level 4 yet (it has 7 or 8 levels). But I'm not even slightly bored with it yet. Perhaps making you go back to the start each time isn't such a terrible move...

I think I've made the mistake of making shooters which play like puzzle games to please puzzle game players. I'm not disappointed with my work so far, but it does need to be better... much better. Luckily MR sales are good for the moment, which means I have the financial ability to make something a lot more risky next.

[Gilzu]

Just as an example I bought Gradius V yesterday, I've been playing it for hours on end, and I still haven't gotten past level 4 yet (it has 7 or 8 levels). But I'm not even slightly bored with it yet. Perhaps making you go back to the start each time isn't such a terrible move...

Dunno if anyone has seen Alien Stars (by awem), that's pretty good. But yeh I agree svero, there are no shooters which are really doing what they should. And I think you are right, shooters are something that people seem to do as their first project, get cruddy sales, think there is no money to be had and start making match-3s. I think anyone staying on to do just shooters is pretty rare, the only people I know who have is me and Cas.

I've downloaded Alien Stars a week ago. I has a great graphics, solid mechanics - and you can see its well polished.

Thing is that I played the demo start to finish - It was nice, but thats it. It wasn't hard, I didn't mark it as a challange. I played it again, and the same mechanical thing happened. I just passed through the demo not having fun.

So in deparate need of a shooter, I played Raiden II. I flunked the first level 3 times. After 3 hours (and numerus attempts) I made it to level 4. week later I barly made it to level 8. Heck, I still enjoy playing the first level.

And if you'll take a good look at Raiden II - It only has 3 main weapon types (you can also have two types of missiles), each level introoduces about 4 new enemies (yup, I counted). Is it low on content? Heck no. only 3 weapons, but each has its own "magic" (played for hours just to enjoy that purple-arching-weapon), each enemy has its own AI, and not just "this one goes down in a sin wave" and a nice immersive theme.

can you find that in todays shooters? let me know.

[Mike Boeh]

I guess we forget about Mountain King ( www.mking.com (http://www.mking.com) ). Scott lives about 15 minutes from me, and he has made a living for many years from his shooters....

[Nexic]

Well I thought Alien Stars was good, but yeh, Raiden II just rips it to shreds. I think Alien Stars was an attempt to remake Raiden II with casual appeal. Hard to know if it worked or not.

I think the only thing I've found that is anything like the hardcore shmups is steel saviour, though it wasn't for me.

I guess we forget about Mountain King ( www.mking.com ). Scott lives about 15 minutes from me, and he has made a living for many years from his shooters....

Yeh I forgot about Mking, I've bought all the Demonstars, and by shareware standards they are really good.

[Jason Chong]

Problem with many shooters, they're always using Spaceships as play character.


Why doesn't anyone look to Gunbird as a reference ? :D

Little cute witch on a harry potter style broomstick.


Laputa/Nausica style mech/settings.

[Anthony Flack]

Oo, Miyazaki fan. Excellent.

Also see: Cotton (cute witch again), Three Wonders (kind of elfy surrealism), Parodius (cute sillyness), Fantasy Zone (cute psychadelia). Um, what are some others...?

[Leper]

Ok so lets just all conclude that YES shooters can sell! :)

I think we're on a verge of a major comeback with the genre myself. If you dont believe me then maybe you're in for a big suprise :D

[svero]

Part of this is building up the market. If a great shooter can make a few hundred grand in todays market and there are enough of them coming out who knows,... maybe in a few years a great shooter can make a mill or two? Great games draw new customers and create new fans. If there was a site releasing games like crimsonland and alien shooter every week the way real releases new bejeweled and solitaires etc.. every week you can bet Id be there spending money. Nowdays I dont even go looking for that stuff. For the most part it doesnt exist.

[svero]

Dunno if anyone has seen Alien Stars (by awem), that's pretty good.

Yeah I agree. I'd even go as far as to say it's very good. Unfortunately its lacking something.. I wish I knew exactly what. Its a little dull for me but perhaps thats because I find it too easy. There are various minor complaints to do with knowing how damaged I am and so on. But maybe most of all is that it feel just too generic. When playing this I really fell like I've been there done that. I'm just not excited to see the next level. As nice as the graphics are and as polished as the game and interface is, it just feels like too many of the other shooters I've played. Still.. Anyone who likes shooters should at least give it a try. It's quite slick.

[arcadetown]

Shooters definitely have potential. Star Defender 2 cracked Real's top 10 chart. A few have cracked our chart. I love Awem's space shooters.

But why space themes? I bet real world themes would sell better. Alien Shooter for one. Plus if combined with great buy nagging techniques (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=1730) and an upgrade store mechanism think would have a winner.

Desperate Space and ClashNSlash still pump out respectible sales here even though space games are a tough sell. Partly I attribute to using great buy nagging techniques. One day I hope this industry will wake up, smell the coffee, and stop blowing sales right out the door. It's as if the 90s shareware industry and all the cute things they learned to drive sales never existed.

[berserker]

But to be totally honest, a shooter is *much* more complex to make than ANY match-3.

How do you know that? You haven't made any match-3 yet ;)
I made both and I have to admit both of them were hard work.

[Nexic]

Okay point taken, I haven't made a match-3 so I can't know for certain. But from the looks of things, there are many more variables to get right in a shooter.

[Nexic]

Part of this is building up the market. If a great shooter can make a few hundred grand in todays market and there are enough of them coming out who knows,... maybe in a few years a great shooter can make a mill or two? Great games draw new customers and create new fans. If there was a site releasing games like crimsonland and alien shooter every week the way real releases new bejeweled and solitaires etc.. every week you can bet Id be there spending money. Nowdays I dont even go looking for that stuff. For the most part it doesnt exist.

You are right, and getting hold of mainstream shmups isn't easy either. Almost all of them are for consoles, and each console has only a handful of them, and most of those will only work on a Japanese machine.... argh. I can see why shmup fans pretty much just don't bother to look anymore.

I've found several books on shoot-em-up design, but they are all in Japanse... and I can't find an English equivilent. :-\

[Andy]

Okay point taken, I haven't made a match-3 so I can't know for certain. But from the looks of things, there are many more variables to get right in a shooter.

Neil, you haven't realized yet? When you make a shooter - you just need to make very good game. When you make match-3 you should make the same game as everybody around ( on game archives ) but with even better than anything before implementation. And I can't say for sure what is easier...

[Anthony Flack]

You are right, and getting hold of mainstream shmups isn't easy either. Almost all of them are for consoles, and each console has only a handful of them, and most of those will only work on a Japanese machine.... argh. I can see why shmup fans pretty much just don't bother to look anymore.

Unless you live in Japan like me. Aha!

[Nexic]

Unless you live in Japan like me. Aha!

*considers moving to japan*

[dxgame]

I could be wrong, but if you replace all of the top 5 games on all the portals with shooters, I bet ya shooter sales would increase dramatically. :p

I love shooters, I've got a bunch planned as well!

[Grey Alien]

Anthony: you don't really live in Japan do you? I thought is was NZ.

[Anthony Flack]

I'm from New Zealand. I have been living in Japan for the last 4 years. I'll be moving back to New Zealand after this year. I have collected an enormous amount of videogames that should keep me going for years...

[Grey Alien]

lol, but aren't they all in Japanese? Or can you read that fine now. I have never visited Japan, but want to because I teach Aikido which is a Japanese martial art ... one day ...

[Anthony Flack]

No, I can't read very much. I don't usually buy games that I think will require too much instructions - but you can't go wrong with shooters. And for the rest, I can usually get a FAQ. Also, Nintendo games are generally quite obvious to navigate through, even in a foreign language. GUI designers take note.

[Leper]

There's loads of gamers out there that never even heard of any portals nor heard of the term "indie-gamer" or anything remote.

Instead of trying to add more women to the market like svero is doing why not throw a bone toward the gamer who is stuck payin 60 bucks for starwars / WW2 clones?

Like me they go to real arcade and see nothing but panzy games that you guys are making so they go back to the ebgames store with their tales between their legs.

I'm going to make games they'll like, I'm not in this indiegaming stuff to be rich like more than half of you guys here. I'm in this thing because its a hobby for me, I'm fine with my day job. That being said I'm gonna make games that are actually worth playing for me and people like me. There's more of us then you think too.

[arcadetown]

Like me they go to real arcade and see nothing but panzy games that you guys are making so they go back to the ebgames store with their tales between their legs.

I'm going to make games they'll like, I'm not in this indiegaming stuff to be rich like more than half of you guys here... There's more of us then you think too.
Hear that, we're all a bunch of girly men ;) Sorry too much governator (The Arnold) in California news.

There's really very little at ebgames for pc gamers. There is a pc audience out there that wants to wake up if given the opportunity.

Tip: why not provide two versions of an action/shooter? A more hardcore version for hardcore geared sites that defaults with difficulty tweaked up and a more portal friendly version that defaults with difficulty modifiers turned down.

[Leper]

Atomaters, Alien Sky, Platypus, all hard games that sold very well. Star Defender, hard game! Swarm, hard game!!

Platypus was smart about having continues limited unless you owned the game. That's what made me buy it. In fact, that was the only reason. I couldnt get past world 1 on my first try, guess what, it sold.

There is no proof at all that easy shooters sell, please guys, stop kidding yourselves!

No, we dont have to panzy-tune the difficulty for the portals at all. The truth is you have to stop thinking that match-3 means you dont have any hand-eye coordination. It's a common misconception that bears no proof, just another assumption that's blocking people from stepping outside of the fricken' box.

Another problem is you get over-zealous and quit your day job (oops!) and get STUCK making the tried and true, you'll be back filling in applications in no time because you're not taking any risks. You'll end up being one of the many who crash and burn when the bubble pops!

You have to start thinking that people that play shooters expect the game to be challenging, because thats why they play them, for the challenge. If someone wants to play a non-reflexive (not reflexive the company ,but really using hand-eye coordination) then they'll download the puzzle games (aside from zuma, which does require fast hand eye coordination in later levels, hello people!)

For Frackin sake, WAKE UP

[AnthemAudio]

Tip: why not provide two versions of an action/shooter? A more hardcore version for hardcore geared sites that defaults with difficulty tweaked up and a more portal friendly version that defaults with difficulty modifiers turned down.

What if the wrong type of gamer gets a hold of the wrong version of game first? Think they'll play it again if they see the appropriate version somewhere else later on? Doubtful.

I'm with Matt here as a hardcore gamer who would love to see more indie games directed at me. Maybe that's what todays' shooters are...one of the only indie offerings that can appeal to a hardcore gamer.

Hmm...

[svero]

Instead of trying to add more women to the market like svero is doing...

I Am? Hmm.. who knew...

[Leper]

I Am? Hmm.. who knew...

It DOES seem that way, you are "testing" non-portal-downloading/playing-the-puzzle-games women arent you?

But that might not be enough, so excuse me and my too-much-coffee-this-morning rant :)

[AnthemAudio]

Svero, do you have a very large "add women" button over there?

Can I borrow it?

Actually, nevermind...my wife wouldn't have that kind of thing lying around the house.

[Leper]

Another common misconception is that shooter gamers are all retro-nostalgic - Show me the proof!

Cas seems to be the only shareware developer that is making shooters that are truely retro (look at his graphics and control schemes!)

The only other shooter I've played that's new that felt retro was Edgar's WarBlade. A good game too! But.....

Again, look at the games that SOLD on the portals! They're not using retro graphics nor do they FEEL retro to me! They're not easy either, they ARE challenging, and they DID sell!

Like svero said, a lot of shooters out there are missing in production values and are cutting corners. That's true, but its not going to be the case with my game, and with shmup-dev teeming with users we're all going to improve each other by feedback from shmup-players. Something good is going to come out of this I can taste it.

[svero]

I have a phone that I keep off the hook and a cell phone I keep turned off. Is that kind of the same thing?

[Ricardo C]

There's loads of gamers out there that never even heard of any portals nor heard of the term "indie-gamer" or anything remote.

Do you know how to reach them en masse?

Instead of trying to add more women to the market like svero is doing why not throw a bone toward the gamer who is stuck payin 60 bucks for starwars / WW2 clones?

Maybe, just maybe, they're developing the kind of game they want to develop? Why should they develop a shooter if they don't want to?

Like me they go to real arcade and see nothing but panzy games that you guys are making so they go back to the ebgames store with their tales between their legs.

"Panzy"?

I'm going to make games they'll like, I'm not in this indiegaming stuff to be rich like more than half of you guys here. I'm in this thing because its a hobby for me, I'm fine with my day job. That being said I'm gonna make games that are actually worth playing for me and people like me. There's more of us then you think too.

Signed: Linus Van Pelt.

[Leper]

Excuse me for my strong words, do I have your attention yet? Panzy is a weak word compared to many others in the english language anyways :)

Yeah I know how to reach them, they're already on the net looking for games. They go to RA and play the shooters there too (yep there are shooters on there)

Trust me, there are lots of gamers that are sick of WW2 / Starwars clones, and paying 60 bucks for those games is something they dont want to do either. Yep, lots wait for the game to hit the bargain bin. They're on the hunt for good 20 dollar games and are finding nothing but panzy games, so they're stuck with what they can get with retail, and its not that great. They spend their time waiting for the next Doom, Quake, Halo, which are few and far between. Retail is dwindling, online is growing, YES its my time and other people who aren't scared of the market to shine. Step aside match-3 guru's your time is over, thanks.

There's not enough good shooters out there, shmup-dev is going to change that I promise you. There are other portals out there that are more shooter friendly, its a shame that they put a few bad ones in their inventory. Another shame that Reflexive puts way-too-easy-play-in-your-sleep games on there as well.

I'm going to change all of this, it's my main goal, will spend money to do it too. I have a day job so its not a risk for me, so I might as well do it. Both time and God are on my side, watch me folks! Just watch me!

[Anthony Flack]

I'm looking forward to tackling another shooter next, too. It will be very different from the last one. So we will see.

[Leper]

I'm looking forward to tackling another shooter next, too. It will be very different from the last one. So we will see.

Looking forward to it!!!!!!! :cool:

[gosub]

I'm with you Leper. Easy shooters are boring. Not much point to them because the high score doesn't mean anything. "WHOA, YOU BEAT LEVEL SIX???" "Yeah, but that was on easy"... or, "Yeah, but it cost me $30 in quarters." I don't see the point.

-Jeremy

[Nexic]

Well I've just released a panzy shooter, next I'm releasing a harder, more macho shooter.... it should be pretty easy for me to see which sells better.

[Leper]

Well I've just released a panzy shooter, next I'm releasing a harder, more macho shooter.... it should be pretty easy for me to see which sells better.

If you make a hard game, do what platypus did.. You could continue as much as you want and sacrifice your score. Better yet, you had to buy the game to continue (made me buy it instantly)

Another word of encouragement, the shooters on RA arent easy... Dont confuse the huge amounts of puzzlers with a lack of hand-eye coordination :)

[Nexic]

Another word of encouragement, the shooters on RA arent easy... Dont confuse the huge amounts of puzzlers with a lack of hand-eye coordination

Yes you are right, they aren't that easy. I get what you are saying :)

[impossible]

Trust me, there are lots of gamers that are sick of WW2 / Starwars clones, and paying 60 bucks for those games is something they dont want to do either. Yep, lots wait for the game to hit the bargain bin. They're on the hunt for good 20 dollar games and are finding nothing but panzy games, so they're stuck with what they can get with retail, and its not that great. They spend their time waiting for the next Doom, Quake, Halo, which are few and far between. Retail is dwindling, online is growing, YES its my time and other people who aren't scared of the market to shine. Step aside match-3 guru's your time is over, thanks.
I just don't think this as a very lucrative market. A good cheap ($5-$10) shmup has potential on xbox live arcade, but on PC its unlikely the sell very well. You can't really expect most hardcore gamers that still like newer FPS games to spend $20 on your "mini-game" with low end production values when they can wait 4-6 months and have the hot game of right now to drop to the same price (or lower.)

Many older, jaded "retro" gamers (which I imagine include most of the developers on indiegamer) claim they'd like XYZ, but in reality they don't spend much money on anything. I don't think going after "ex-gamers" as a niche market is viable because these guys prove time and time again that they don't want to pay for smaller games (or any games, really.) Not many people try lower ($5-$10) price points, but even to get people to play a freeware game it has to be pretty good. That said, I've played freeware japanese shooters that are a lot better than any of the shmups I've played from anyone here. This is probably mostly a style preference, I like faster paced bullet hell shooters.

Go ahead and make your shmup, there's no reason why it can't sell pretty well. I just don't see any niche market, especially a niche that tries to sell to people that are basically sick and tired of games in general, doing as well as casual games.

[Leper]

Can we just end this at YES shooters can sell, and they're capable of being part of the casual market. (look hot shot(lol), they ARE in the casual market!!)

The casual market isnt as niche as people think. I think most people are just too scared and make what they know will hit the top 10 easily (match 3)

The market is ever changing, its not something that stays the same so the only people that are gonna make it in the long haul are those willing to make changes and expand.

Its not about making what will guarantee to sell as much as it is about making something that will help evolve and promote an ever-changing market.

Dont insult portal-gamers by thinking they're so simple minded and like playing the same game with a different skin. Stop stereo-typing them, stop thinkign you have it figured out, because the minute you think that is the minute you take out any cool ideas you once had.

People love new stuff, and new mechanics, or even challenging mechanics can and will work. ESPECIALLY as gamers slowly migrate to the online world, which is the wave of the future I think.

I'm glad to be one of the fewer devs that are serious about making something other than what is selling so easily.

[impossible]

I'm not going after ex-gamers so why should I read your post if its a two paragraphd rant about how you cant sell to them? I'm going after gamers that are looking for something to do and dont wanna spend 60 bux on anything other then the next half-life etc. They also spend 20 bux, 5 buz, 10 bux on games in bargain bins, where did you get the term "ex-gamer" - amazing how my post got twisted up!
Most of my post was not about ex-gamers. However, ex-gamers is a market term referring to a (mythical?) market of people that used to play a lot of games but don't do it that often anymore. I'm sorry I mentioned it, most of my post was not actually about them, there are two sentences where I mention ex-gamers and retro gamers, ignore those and read the post again if it bothers you.

[Leper]

Most of my post was not about ex-gamers. However, ex-gamers is a market term referring to a (mythical?) market of people that used to play a lot of games but don't do it that often anymore. I'm sorry I mentioned it, most of my post was not actually about them, there are two sentences where I mention ex-gamers and retro gamers, ignore those and read the post again if it bothers you.


I read it and responded accordingly. I would consider my self a gamer still, if that helps. I just buy games that I really like, usually I only buy games that I know will be good, or if I can play a demo. I buy casual games more than anything else. But I love a challenge, are there more people like me? YES THERE IS.

[Leper]

Oh! Let me show you some cool fun games the peeps are making.. (or some that are done)

http://www.dxgame.com/screenshots/rul5.jpg
http://naixelacom.temp.powweb.com/s1c.png
http://naixelacom.temp.powweb.com/s2c.png
http://naixelacom.temp.powweb.com/s3c.png
http://www.shmup-dev.com/ss2.jpg
http://members.thegamecreators.com/geecee3/rich/shmupwip.png
http://softlanding.metalbat.com/wp-content/Screen6.png
http://www.moonpod.com/graphic/warangels/DevShots/1.jpg
http://memoryleak.drperline.net/images/111205/celerityscreenshot4.jpg
http://www.int13.net/darklaga.htm


That's just a few, that people are working on or have done recently.. shooters are far from dead, and yep, some are going to sell.

[Bmc]

I think if done right, a shooter could/can sell well in the casual space.

done right as in made with the casual audience in mind, not what you wanted to make when you 13 years old

4 things I believe that would make a SHmUP go along way towards being casual

1) the player's avatar is controlled with the mouse. it is mapped directly to the mouse location like in breakout games/Luxor etc (NOT like in Heavy Weapon)
2) the basic(weakest) weapon is constantly firing, no need to hold down the left mouse button down.
3) the left mouse button fires special/more powerful weapons. right mouse button could activate speed boost (or something similar)
4) a theme not involving space or at the very least brightly colored gfx... think this http://www.tomdownload.com/games/action/images/platypus_big.jpg instead of this http://www.excellentcontent.com/emuzone/gradius.jpg

[Leper]

I think if done right, a shooter could/can sell well in the casual space.

done right as in made with the casual audience in mind, not what you wanted to make when you 13 years old

4 things I believe that would make a SHmUP go along way towards being casual

1) the player's avatar is controlled with the mouse. it is mapped directly to the mouse location like in breakout games/Luxor etc (NOT like in Heavy Weapon)
2) the basic(weakest) weapon is constantly firing, no need to hold down the left mouse button down.
3) the left mouse button fires special/more powerful weapons. right mouse button could activate speed boost (or something similar)
4) a theme not involving space


Point taken, and workable. But space still sells, this isnt about making a game for the stereo-typical casual gamer. It's about giving space to someone who rightfully will enjoy the game, someone who does play casual games, does buy them, but doesnt see enough enjoyable ones on there. Stop thinking casual gamers are as simple folk without hand-eye coordination. Tons of guys are thinking like that and look they have games on reflexive that suck horribly. they're way too easy.. sucky !!

[Bmc]

It's about giving space to someone who rightfully will enjoy the game, someone who does play casual games, does buy them, but doesnt see enough enjoyable ones on there.

A game that appeals to under 1% of the audience won't do. There are plenty of FREE shooters for them the play. FREE shooters that are excellent.

[edit:] I'm assuming you're talking about guys who loved games like Raiden, Gradius etc when they we're young.

Stop thinking casual gamers are as simple folk without hand-eye coordination.

It's not about that at all. Using mouse control is much more intuative than the arrow keys. It's make for a better experience. It all comes down to be usable. Usability is key.

Tons of guys are thinking like that and look they have games on reflexive that suck horribly. they're way too easy.. sucky !!

show me 1 example that has the 4 elements I mentioned, I've never played one that does and I usually play every new game that comes out on the portals (though I don't frequent Reflexive much).

[Nexic]

Double Post *****

[Nexic]

A game that appeals to under 1% of the audience won't do. There are plenty of FREE shooters for them the play. FREE shooters that are excellent.

I would say I'm one of those guys, and I can't find plenty of free shooters which are excellent... most free onesI play for about 1 minute and give up because they are no good. The best SHMUP I've played on the PC is XOP, which is shareware and to be honest could do with a graphic revamp. If there was a true equal with better graphics I'd buy it.

Yeh there are the old ones, which can be gotten hold of for almost nothing, but to be honest they aren't good enough to hold my attention. It sounds shallow but I'm just craving a good shooter with good, modern graphics and effects.

[Leper]

BMC: Where these excellent free shooters at that use mouse control etc? Ones that have player profiles? Ones that are at all modern? No I didnt mean like gradius, heh. not "1%" of the market :)

I'm sorry BMC, I agree with you mostly, didnt mean to sound like I wasnt so I apologize for that.

Not all elements you've mentioned, I 've just meant very super easy games. I just fear people get that confused.. I like the constantly firing without mouse (i might try that later) - but I dont think we should cut space out of shmups.. a lot of peeps still like to blast aliens dangit!! :)

sorry about my last posts.. pretty much just wanted to stress the importance of how challenging the game must be. I agree with mouse control, but it should be done correctly and it shouldnt make the game too easy (ship should NOT be the mouse cursor)

I'm with Nexic.. I'm craving a good modern shooter like Gradius V. Put one on the PC plz

[Bmc]

BMC: Where these excellent free shooters at that use mouse control etc? Ones that have player profiles? Ones that are at all modern? No I didnt mean like gradius, heh. not "1%" of the market :)

1% was just on off-the-cuff number... well excellent free shooters... I don't believe any have profiles and all that jazz but the japanese shooters (forget the term for them) are usually pretty good.


but I dont think we should cut space out of shmups.. a lot of peeps still like to blast aliens dangit!! :)
possibly true, I just can't stand the cold metallic space scenes often seen.

little off topic but since we are talking about free shooters: check out this free clone of geometry wars http://www.incitti.com/Blitz/ Grid Wars is it's name a hint though... you need to click ESC than go into the control settings and switch it from Controller which is the default setting.

[Leper]

offtopic but I think the freeware japanese shmups sux0r. I havent played any that I actually enjoyed. Most have like 320x200 resolutions with blocky graphics and ancient sound. They have weird controls and require keyboard, they dont let you continue etc. they're way too retro for my taste, i think they're way too hard too. I like a challenge, but I like a workeable challenge and i like to save my game.

imagine playing quake 4 without saving. heh

[impossible]

offtopic but I think the freeware japanese shmups sux0r
I find it funny that you say this, yet one of the "cool games" that you linked to is heavily inspired by Japanese shmups (darklaga) and the guys developing it host the a doujin news site that posts a new link to a japanese freeware (or demos of commercial products) shmup almost everyday. http://www.int13.net/doujinaroni/. I'm sure you could find something you like.

Not all of them are great, but generally speaking I like the feel of japanese shmups (faster paced, more bullets) more than shooters I've played elsewhere. That's not to say I only like Japanese shooters. I like Gridrunner++, most of PomPom and Puppygames shooters.

[arcadetown]

Atomaters, Alien Sky, Platypus, all hard games that sold very well. Star Defender, hard game! Swarm, hard game!!

There is no proof at all that easy shooters sell, please guys, stop kidding yourselves!
Both Platypus and SD2 came extremely hard and Retro64 and Real had those game's difficulty relaxed some. Those mods worked like a charm as both sold pretty well. I never said make an easy game, just don't make it JetsNGuns like hard.

Many here argue shooters are too easy to appeal to hard core shooter fans and sites they frequent. If true just provide a version for those sites with difficulty modifier turned up.

Don't kid yourself into thinking an ultra hard shooter ala JetsNGuns is where it's at for portal audiences. SD2 is an excellent example for difficulty and portal audiences.

[Leper]

Don't kid yourself into thinking an ultra hard shooter ala JetsNGuns is where it's at for portal audiences. SD2 is an excellent example for difficulty and portal audiences.

No I found JNG too hard and I never bought it for that reason!! I believe in making the game challenging, but not too hard. I just find the current games out there too easy, and not enjoyeable for that reason. Plus JNG was quite punishing when you died, you had to start all over again. I'm all about continues, etc.

[electronicStar]

Leper, I do agree with you but I think you should put all this enthousiasm and this energy of yours to good use... Why don't you try and create your own shmups portal?!?!
It is a lot of work and it will probably not leave you time to code your own games but at least you'll be promoting the games that you like AND you could make a (moderate) living out of it if it works well.

You see, there is no questionning wether shmups can sell or not. You can sell almost anything under the condition that you knwo how to market it, and look profssional. It's true that the shooters you are talking about are either too difficult for soccermoms or look too old for young hardcore players. So the first intelligent step would be to find a new way to market them and to present them under a new light.
Well I won't go into details but basically you'd have to create the market you are after. You see shmups will never sell well on portals because portal audiences are specifically tailored/sought among the soccermom/retired technophile/secretary demographics(yeah, people with low hand/eye coordination).
Also don't ask opinions on this board since most devellopers here are heavily biased toward the gem-swapper genre, and will tell you to change your shmups to their corrupted ideals ("your shooter should be mouse based"...:o).
All the investments you put in your dev-forum could be put to better use in a shooter/hardcore portal. Of course you should wait until you have a sufficient list of decent games. Also you shouldn't restrict to shooters, maybe accept other non-casual genres, there are many good niche games out there (gal-civ 2 for example).

As I said it's a matter of creating the market, i.e. constant marketing of your site ,finding the good contacts,avoid the bad places to pimp your games, etc,etc... I have noticed that when I'm not browsing this board or any other develloper-oriented site I practically never hear of the (non-portal)games whose demos I can see here, so there is really a lot of room left for improvement. Many devellopers seem to think it is sufficient to put an ad on gamedev.net or TIGS(rip) or a develloper blog instead of trying to reach a real audience. For example you could try to buy ad space in a niche sci-fi magazine or a manga website (there are several with low ad prices out there).You need to make a hard brainstorming to find who are the people you'll be able to reach and who have a chance to buy your games. Avoid the people who are more likely to warez your games.
But don't be pessimistic, don't think about the past , but think about the future!


offtopic but I think the freeware japanese shmups sux0r. I havent played any that I actually enjoyed. Most have like 320x200 resolutions with blocky graphics and ancient sound. They have weird controls and require keyboard, they dont let you continue etc. they're way too retro for my taste, i think they're way too hard too. I like a challenge, but I like a workeable challenge and i like to save my game.

imagine playing quake 4 without saving. heh I can't agree with that , I've found some great freeware shooters. A lot of 3d ones on the underdogs for example...

[princec]

show me 1 example that has the 4 elements I mentioned, I've never played one that does and I usually play every new game that comes out on the portals (though I don't frequent Reflexive much).

Gridrunner++ has exactly those 4 themes (although the graphical setting is colourful it's not space. More abstract psychedlia) but it's not a hit. So there must be something else.

Cas :)

[Bmc]

Gridrunner++ has exactly those 4 themes (although the graphical setting is colourful it's not space. More abstract psychedlia) but it's not a hit. So there must be something else.

Cas :)

never heard of Gridrunner++ I'll have to check it out. has it ever been on any portals?

edit: Ok i just tried it but I can see why it's not on the portals. It very "seizure-inducing", it's not a standard size like 800x600 and the menu interface could use a little work... that being said I like it quite a bit... the gameplay is very fun! Now if they only did a reskin, made the screen something like 800x600 or 640x480 and reduced some of the seizure-effects(alot) I bet something like this would be gold.