Spam or Marketing Campaign?

[ManuelMarino]

Hello, Gabriel Gambetta pointed me toward this thread:

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=6201

I am very surprised. Lately I hired a marketing expert to begin a targeted advertising campaign and I AM PAYING HIM A LOT OF MONEY.

After having a discussion with him, I decided to FIRE HIM and ask another person to do his job in a better way.

About our prices, if you think they are high, please read this email I received from Gabriel himself:

------------------------------------------
This is an excerpt from a (p)review of Pirate Poppers :

It would be remiss not to mention the game’s extraordinary production values. From the orchestrated music soundtrack (one of the best we’ve heard in a long time) to the gorgeous graphics to the high-quality sound effects, Pirate Poppers is a treat for the senses. Oh, and wait until you get a load of the exploding ball power-up that blasts everything in sight, leaving the screen shaking and your speakers rumbling!

Beta test also indicates players really like your music. Congratulations for a job well done!
-------------------------------------------

I think the excerpt says it all. Marino Sounds (http://www.marinosounds.com) is a very professional studio and we bring best Los Angeles studios techniques used in Hollywood movies into lower budget projects. This means you can have impressive quality music and sounds when a Los Angeles studio would ask 50 times our prices for the same quality.

What are OUR GOALS? as stated in our "about us section":

To create high quality productions for our customers without the expensive budgets that such quality works require. How we can do that? Quality is obtained through passion, skill and inspiration. It is not only technical work, but also a highly creative process. This applies to both the soundtracks and sound effects. (Very good original sound effects require the sound designer to be highly creative and resourceful. This is a natural talent that not everybody can learn).Marino Sounds is more than a studio. It is a mission, a passion, and a cocktail of enthusiasm mixed with talent. Our ambition is to bring audio quality to a whole new level and provide such quality for all projects, no matter how big or small. Every project is important to us, and no effort will be spared in delivering quality work!

I think also INDIES deserve QUALITY. If you don't think so, I don't mind, but I'll continue with my goals, delivering Hollywood quality works for all projects, no matter how big or small.

[solid]

Hey everyone,

I just want to say that we found out about MarinoSounds through a thread on the GarageGames forums last fall. After listening to the demo reels, we decided to go with that studio to create the soundtrack for our game Nuclear Nightmare. We now have 6 high quality tracks as well as some smaller action loops.

If we never saw that thread but instead found out about them through that "spam" email, we probably still would've went with them after listening to the high quality demo reels. I believe there is a major difference between the daily spam emails received for viagra, medicine, oem software, etc and this email.

We have already received about 7 emails over the past months from 3D modelers trying to get some business. I don't consider that spam. We're currently looking for modelers. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

Nick

[Andy]

I decided to FIRE HIM and ask another person to do his job in a better way.


So, should we expect another spam attack from new one onto our email inboxes Manuel?

I've got two your spam emails onto my different accounts. And this is after we had pretty detailed discussion with you personally long time ago.

REM: I'm not going to defend you again in further such threads about your marketing. ;)

[ManuelMarino]

No... SPAM is useless email. A business proposal is something different. Is something useful.

Also, SPAM is a continuous email attack ;) while a business proposal is a one time email sent to specific persons that could benefit from the proposal.

Please let's not confuse the two things.

[BarrySlisk]

Also, SPAM is a continuous email attack ;)

I thought that was "flooding"?

Spam is just mails sent to a lot of people who did not ask for it.

But Flood-Spam, now thats mean stuff :)

[revve]

In my mind, Spam is a synonym for "Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail" which pretty much means even a single message you get asking you to buy something, when you didn't contact them to send it to you first.

Think of it. If everybody sent just one message to everybody else......

[ManuelMarino]

But this way companies could never contact each other to make business together because "everything" would be spam.

No, I think that business proposals made through email are a great resource for small companies to contact other companies and considering this spam would ruin a very effective way for companies to meet and partnership to achieve common goals.

[turbo]

I would never do business with a company who spammed me especially through a forum. And spam, to me, is any kind of unsolicited email especially when using an email list. That goes straight into my trash.

Unless contact is individually customized to me and comes from a recommended source through another contact I have no time for it and put it in the 'not worth viewing' category.

[Nexic]

The first time I got your AD Marino I didn't think it was spam, but after the 3rd I started to get annoyed. Hopefully the new guy will be better.

[Andy]

The first time I got your AD Marino I didn't think it was spam, but after the 3rd I started to get annoyed. Hopefully the new guy will be better.

Yes. Please count me with this one as well.
I've already knew about your services Maneul - could you please clean out all my emails from your lists. I'm more than enough with Viagra etc...

Thanks in advance,

[ManuelMarino]

Yes. Please count me with this one as well.
I've already knew about your services Maneul - could you please clean out all my emails from your lists. I'm more than enough with Viagra etc...

Thanks in advance,

Ciao Andy, your reply is so funny that one of my customers (a real professional, and sorry, I won't say the name) said:

Hi Manuel,

Won't let me post for 48 hours. Looks like you've encountered nasty people who will forever remain amateurs!

[Arkadesh]

Well, actually this "funny" attitude is law in some countries - ie Poland. You can get fined here if you send unsolicited marketing emails.

cheers,
Arkadesh

[ManuelMarino]

Well, actually this "funny" attitude is law in some countries - ie Poland. You can get fined here if you send unsolicited marketing emails.

cheers,
Arkadesh

Business proposals are different. It's not spam. I receive tons of emails from people interested to work in the music industry, is it spam? I receive tons of emails of people interested to work in the videogames industry, is it spam?

If every business/proposal/request/introduction email is spam, then we can uninstall our mail software and stop paying our internet connection. Hey, welcome to this crazy world!

Thanks god there are people that can understand the difference between spam, and the rest.

[turbo]

Well, actually this "funny" attitude is law in some countries - ie Poland. You can get fined here if you send unsolicited marketing emails.

cheers,
Arkadesh
as it should be.

[Sharpfish]

I think sending out a few mails is one thing, but to argue the semantics of what is or isn't spam from the standpoint of someone who has sent spam is ridiculous.

Manuel > I got your mailout also, to be fair I have had OTHERS that have come from this forum, or from gather emails from this forum (ie to my hotmail) and they have all been audio guys, what is it with them? ;)

Anyway as I said in the other thread I had no problem with that ONE email, I quickly binned it and paid it no mind which is just standard these days. If it doesn't adress ME personally and get to the point quickly then it's gone as I have far too much to sort through.

Getting back to spam semantics. what I got from you was business related. You hoped to gain custom from it, which in turn means money. Therefore you sent *unsolicited* emails (or rather the person you employed did) to get business.. *SPAM*!. Whether you accept it as spam or not, to most people out there we class it as spam and that's the problem. There must be better ways of advertising. I imagine all this has done is put people off from considering using you.

Note I think you a professional music maker and you have obviously done great work for others on here, no slur on your good name at all - just please don't send me unsolicited emails without even finding out if I am a musician myself or not.

I would never have said anything had I not seen the way you have responded in this thread - and posting that quote from an email about this thread from a "supporter" who can't post for 48 hours is not putting you in a good light.

I think the fact that some guys have hired you and promoted you in the other thread is far more positive advertising/word of mouth than you can get from sending out spam-shots.

I am certain you would not like everyone on this forum to send unsolicited emails every time they release a game, update, preview or whatever - it would be chaos. You can not have one "rule" for one and another for the rest.

[ManuelMarino]

Well, your reply seems very reasonable. Any hints then how to manage a marketing campaign without sending emails... or sending emails, but... how? and in which way? You seem the most wise here so I would really know your opinions on this.

[Vorax]

I am certain you would not like everyone on this forum to send unsolicited emails every time they release a game, update, preview or whatever - it would be chaos. You can not have one "rule" for one and another for the rest.

Quoting to stress Sharpfish's excellent point. I too got email, and I too consider it unsolicited spam.

[Vorax]

Well, your reply seems very reasonable. Any hints then how to manage a marketing campaign without sending emails... or sending emails, but... how? and in which way? You seem the most wise here so I would really know your opinions on this.

Purchasing advertising space on Indie game related sites such as GameTunnel would be a start. We all visit GameTunnel. GameDev.net would be another.

[ManuelMarino]

Purchasing advertising space on Indie game related sites such as GameTunnel would be a start. We all visit GameTunnel. GameDev.net would be another.

Very interesting, thanks!

Well, any other hints?

[bluejay]

Ciao Andy, your reply is so funny that one of my customers (a real professional, and sorry, I won't say the name) said:

Hi Manuel,

Won't let me post for 48 hours. Looks like you've encountered nasty people who will forever remain amateurs!

great way to drum up good will dude... :rolleyes:

[papillon]

Personally I have no objection to being contacted about relevant business opportunities once. I do start getting annoyed the third time the same person mails me, and have sometimes sent some nasty replies because of it.

However, I don't think I've ever had more than one email from Marino and it was a very very long time ago. :)

The problem with emailing me to offer sound or graphics services is that I may say "Hrm, that sounds interesting" and then FORGET about it because I wasn't looking for graphics or sound at that exact point in time.

Since it's not something I can necessarily use immediately, it's much more helpful to have services advertised in places I might search for them when I *am* ready to pay for such services. Like services-for-hire listings in forums. :)

[AnthemAudio]

Well, it was a generic SPAM to be sure. That's my gig, audio for games and I got an email too. It's even in my Forum Name (which is where I assume they got the email address from) so...er...

Again, it didn't bother me so much but since we're bringing up what is and what isn't solicited.

Then again, I did listen to some of your clips and I think they'are done very well! So there you go!

[ManuelMarino]

Then again, I did listen to some of your clips and I think they'are done very well! So there you go!

Thank you very much :)

[Sharpfish]

Well, your reply seems very reasonable. Any hints then how to manage a marketing campaign without sending emails... or sending emails, but... how? and in which way? You seem the most wise here so I would really know your opinions on this.

Not sure if any of that is sarcasm (very hard to tell without tone of voice) ;)

The long answer:

Anyway, I don't have specifics. Just like everyone else on here has to learn what is best (even getting their fingers burned maybe) so must you. The email thing was the first step on the "what not to do" check list. Now it is out of your system you should look at the big picture.

You offer audio services for games. You are not really doing targeted marketing by emailing just anyone who makes games. To hit a target you need to only mail a developer who is currently seeking third party music, everyone else will see it as spam. And maybe many of those are never going to use third party music anyway (there are a lot of talented/multi skilled guys here who have to do things on a budget even if it means foregoing some quality).

Therefore your best bet is to just post your services on forums and make sure your SEO is top notch. *IF* I was looking for audio from a professional for a game I would look in relevent forums and then hit google (or more probably Yahoo/Msn as google gets right on my tits with it's selective listings recently) I would be searching for your services and hopefully would find them, check out the demos and be impressed and *I* would contact *you*. I think most people would do the same, I can not imagine spur of the moment/impulse business transactions concerning any assets for a game therefore I don't feel that the small number of clients you may pick up from the mail-outs is worth the risk of loosing a larger number of potential future customers through negative perception.

It may be worth making a small freeware game with your music in so that you get recognition for your quality rather than your marketing techniques. If you can't make a simple game then seek out someone who can make a cheap game that lends itself well to showing off music and get it out there. You could even call it "Super Marino Brothers" ;)

The short answer:

Sorry, but I don't know! :)

[ManuelMarino]

Well, I was serious... no sarcasm, really. So thanks for your reply.

About a famous game soundtrack we made, check http://ufo.myexp.de/

It's UFO:Alien Invasion. It's very famous (many downloads) and we had fantastic feedback from our community and also from people in other forums/communities.

[soniCron]

Ironic that you should link to a project page that loads a full screen pop-under ad and a half-page Flash overlay ad...while trying to defend your marketting tactics! ;)

[ManuelMarino]

Ironic that you should link to a project page that loads a full screen pop-under ad and a half-page Flash overlay ad...while trying to defend your marketting tactics! ;)

UFO: Alien Invasion?? I don't see any ads except the google ones that are very common... but what are you talking about!!! Are you sure your pc has not some ADWARE thing???

UFO:AI demo has been downloaded more than 100000 times! UFO:AI Dev Team is one of the most serious and dedicated team I know and they are making a great job with this game.... search on the net, check forums that talk about the project!

[soniCron]

UFO: Alien Invasion?? I don't see any ads except the google ones that are very common... but what are you talking about!!! Are you sure your pc has not some ADWARE thing??? *laughs* Yes. I'm sure! :) Try refreshing the page until the ad in the corner says "SponsorAds Vermarktung & Sponsoring," then wait for the pop-under and floater. (Also, Firefox mentioned that it blocked additional popups, so there may be more than those two...but I'm not going to try it with IE! :))

[Sybixsus]

I concur. One popunder, one blocked and a big flash overlay. Three total.

Re: Thread Subject

For me, it's spam if I haven't given permission and you're talking to people. If you're talking to me or I've given permission, it's not.

So if you emailed me and said "I see you're working on this platform game and the demo you had running didn't have any music in it. Have you found a musician yet? I feel I could do a really job of the music for a game like that, and here's some samples to prove it." I'd say ok, not interested, but that was a business proposal. You took the time to write to ME, you had information about ME, you had a business proposal. When you email 100 people with the same thing, no specifics and no time taken, it's not a business proposal at all.

Having said all that, I only got one email from ya, and I binned it without a second thought because I get spam like that all the time, including from forum members and if it's only one or two, it's not worth my energy making a fuss about it.

It wouldn't have any effect on me working with you or not in the future. Although that's mainly because I know musicians who are as good as I want them to be who will do the job for a lot less. But still, it wouldn't affect my decision.

[ManuelMarino]

I received a private message from soniCron. It is very interesting so I post it here so everyone of you can read:

Manuel,

I don't want you to consider my mention of the invasive advertising as an agreement that you are spamming. I do not, in fact, believe you are spamming. I think those emails were an appropriate method of contact. However, I can understand other people would be upset about them, so I caution you to be more careful in the future, to avoid this sort of thing. But my mention of the UFO site was said in jest -- I just wanted to point out the irony of the situation! I hope there is no animosity between us!

Best Regards,
Daniel Kinney

PS. I'm fond of your work and you may be hearing from me in the future. Great work!
__________________
Daniel Kinney
Solari Studios | TIGRS | First Game, Jeweltopia, Beta Released!

[Sharpfish]

Similar to the email you got and felt compelled to post, The emphasis on private messages is the word "private". :D


PS. I'm fond of your work and you may be hearing from me in the future. Great work!


That is just Daniels way of saying "expect an unsolicited email from me soon advertising 'JewelTopia' " ;)

[disaffected]

I, too receive unsolicited email from marinosounds, and I do consider it spam because if was sent to my forum email.

You've already posted on the Ads section of this forum offering your service that means you already got a chance to introduce your service to people that are interested, if they are interested then they can go ahead and contact you, why sent email again to the very same people that already had a chance to see your service offering?

[soniCron]

Since Manuel has taken the liberty of involving me in the matter publicly -- against my wishes and without my consent -- I would like to qualify my statement with the following:

I would never tolerate any representative of my business sending unsolicited emails or messages. If I discovered such behavior, the person responsible would be dealt with most severely (read: fired) and legal recourse would be explored (read: sued).

[ManuelMarino]

Since Manuel has taken the liberty of involving me in the matter publicly -- against my wishes and without my consent -- I would like to qualify my statement with the following:

I would never tolerate any representative of my business sending unsolicited emails or messages. If I discovered such behavior, the person responsible would be dealt with most severely (read: fired) and legal recourse would be explored (read: sued).

Daniel... LOOOOOOOOL :D :D :D