View Full Version : Ok lately new games bore me
Ho hum.. I do love to play games, but lately I am unimpressed with original subject material.
Match 3's and Zuma (match 3 balls) type games as well as Arkanoid clones as far as the eye can see!
So ok, I did an "unofficial poll" to see if I was alone in this matter.
What gamers want. Seems that most kids will play anything you throw at them, but do they buy games? Well their parents do, if they get nagged enough. Ok what do the gamers that BUY games want?
From the data I got, 42% liked logic/mystery/crime related games, for example Betrapped, MCF: Huntsville, and a few of this genre.
23 % like the platform type games for example Snowy
11 % actually said they liked the ball match games for example, Luxor, Zuma, etc
10 % said they liked the Tycoon/sim genre
6% said they liked any game that lets you blow things up
5 % went for the match 3- bejeweled type games.
and the remaining were either undecided or misc.
I plan to make a more official poll soon.
But at least I found out that I am not alone in this boredom.
It was the 1st poll I ever ran. So maybe something more precise in the future.
Ok now I feel a bit better.....
smiles
02-21-2006, 07:24 AM
Personally, I went through a time in the past two years where I discovered the indie game community, all of the portal sites, and game development companies/forums - during that time it was great and I played a lot of unique games, etc...
But then, probably like you, I've played everything and just wait for the "next big thing" which hasn't happened for a while. I'm also played out on the match-3 and Zuma games as well...so it has to be pretty good to entice me.
However, I think this "burn-out" happens to each individual - but there are always new players out there finding a portal of games for the first time, or finding your Zuma-like game before they actually find Zuma itself. There will always be an audience (hopefully).
Anthony Flack
02-21-2006, 07:38 AM
Or hopefully not...
Nothing stopping you from making something else instead.
Savant
02-21-2006, 07:44 AM
Or hopefully not...
Nothing stopping you from making something else instead.
Dare to dream...
princec
02-21-2006, 08:02 AM
I want to shoot stuff, in the zone. I don't like to match things much, nor even think. I just like alpha-brainwaves and mesmerising zapping with just the right levels of adrenaline. I'm not normal though. It seems no-one buys games like this any more.
Cas :)
AnthemAudio
02-21-2006, 08:16 AM
Why aren't there any good pinball games being made/played? IS there? That would seem like a decent niche in casual gaming but I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anything good yet. It's action, puzzle, reflexes, and can be relaxing as well.
Kind of reminds me why I still like the real things!
princec
02-21-2006, 08:23 AM
Pinball would for sure be a massive hit practically everywhere. No idea why it's not being done. Probably because ball physics are very difficult to do right.
Cas :)
Pinball, oh yes please! I used to play a lot of that. Not planning to make one, but I think it might be pretty easy nowadays to glue together a 3d engine, physics engine and some basic scripting for activating the game modes, bonuses etc...
mahlzeit
02-21-2006, 08:25 AM
1) The value of polls is overrated.
2) What people think they want usually isn't what they want.
Why is the pinball that comes with Windows less popular than the solitaire? I never see anyone play it...
Who did you poll?
How many people did you poll?
Without you answering these 2 questions your poll data is pretty much useless.
Christian
02-21-2006, 08:43 AM
I dont like games anymore, thats why i switched to making them instead of playing them, its by much more fun and rewarding... but i like civilization, and mount and blade, i like just a 3 or 4 games of the millions that exists, its that im tired of playing the same game over and over again (what has changed since doom 1? only graphics) but with different graphical effects and some little tweaks, i want new experiences... anyway i dont play games anymore, i busy working and studying.
Sharpfish
02-21-2006, 08:46 AM
I feel pinball's appeal is deceptive. I love it myself, but unless you dumb it down beyond all recognition I don't think it sits well with the ever burgeoning casual-crowd. I will probably do a 3D pinball game eventually because I always wanted to, I noticed Andy(wildsnake) did a couple and they look like his best work - I'm not sure they were his best sales though? (Andy?).
As for shooters - well, when I was 14 I was addicted to uridium on 8bit, that was pure gameplay - however, these days I just couldn't be bothered to play that kind of thing. The whole thing with casual games (in their current form) is that they don't demand much from the player, as sad as it seems to old timers like us, we just have to accept there are a lot of people out there who want to pass the time without particularly having their adrenaline pumped or having to think too much.. or worry about "dying".
I prefer exploratory games, where you can discover things be it in an FPS or a Platformer (arcade adventure), again what I like doesn't translate to what our most viable market enjoys.
There is nothing in the world to stop any of us making the games we truly want to make (and I intend to do that given time and income) but the reality is there is a market for those games that "bore us" so as developers trying to earn a living it is madness not to target them. Incremental changes with each passing release to "ween" casual gamers into broader genres should be embraced but no massive changes will capture their imagination. There always has to be some familarity for them to feel "nice" and "comfortable".
I know in many ways it can be seen as depressing, I have had a very strange year coming to terms with what small games "mean" in the year 2006 compared to 1986. The only thing I can suggest to keep you sane and to not get caught up in the negative aspects is to look only to the places you normally get your gaming joy from (hardcore? retail? DS? PC?) and bring some of that to the "indie" space (slowly).
The last indie game I enjoyed was Motorama because it reminded me of kickstart but was hard enough to give me a challenge while not being stupid/difficult to control - at least for me - not sure everyone sees things the same way. Tower Defense also had something to it that reminded me of the golden age, and excitment that you are actually doing something. Again, how that translates to the players who don't want to think or "be scared" is another matter.
Savant
02-21-2006, 08:49 AM
I dont like games anymore, thats why i switched to making them instead of playing them, its by much more fun and rewarding... but i like civilization, and mount and blade, i like just a 3 or 4 games of the millions that exists, its that im tired of playing the same game over and over again (what has changed since doom 1? only graphics) but with different graphical effects and some little tweaks, i want new experiences... anyway i dont play games anymore, i busy working and studying.
How can you possibly expect to produce a fun game if you don't like games anymore? Unless you're leaving the design and polish up to someone else, I don't see how this could be a winning situation.
...I noticed Andy(wildsnake) did a couple and they look like his best work - I'm not sure they were his best sales though? (Andy?)
Aha Paul! Sure I will show you all our good niches. :D
Guys! Software pinball doesn't sell at all. That's why we make a living from it in the latest two years. :p
As a real pinball aficionado i've played many software pinball variants over the years.
I've never found a game that gives you the joy of a real pinball machine. Little things like giving the machine a "hip and shoulder" to make the ball move 3 mm to the left and the steel ball smacking into the glass make up the entire pinball experience. I even like the big flashing lights and the sheer size of a pinball machine. I'm not saying pinball software doesn't sell, i've even bought some myself, it's just that for me the illusion is not complete.
Sharpfish
02-21-2006, 10:14 AM
Aha Paul! Sure I will show you all our good niches. :D
Guys! Software pinball doesn't sell at all. That's why we make a living from it in the latest two years. :p
hey - just good to know there is a market out there somewhere for more interesting games.. games that most of us guys would make if we didn't think we were wasting our time ;)
Pinball Dreams (AMIGA) was the first good pinball game I played. I loved it - even without the "hands on" touches of the real thing. Of course there have been many more polished and amazingly looking 2D and 3D pinball games since then, maybe now though it's tougher to get noticed.
The new pinball game on the PSP looks like it suits the widescreen (on end) well, gameplay is another question - though 'bout time the psp found a good use for games ;)
As a real pinball aficionado i've played many software pinball variants over the years.
I've never found a game that gives you the joy of a real pinball machine. Little things like giving the machine a "hip and shoulder" to make the ball move 3 mm to the left and the steel ball smacking into the glass make up the entire pinball experience. I even like the big flashing lights and the sheer size of a pinball machine. I'm not saying pinball software doesn't sell, i've even bought some myself, it's just that for me the illusion is not complete.
Guys! You all are kidding me? No? :confused:
Rory! www.wildsnake.com - and your feedback is welcome either here or through any our emails (except webmaster) - I check them all personally.
cliffski
02-21-2006, 10:38 AM
How can you possibly expect to produce a fun game if you don't like games anymore? Unless you're leaving the design and polish up to someone else, I don't see how this could be a winning situation.
well I'm slightly like that. I still play Battlefield 2 a lot, Empire Earth 2 now and then, and some Lux and Titan attacks! or maybe Eve online.
But most games do bore me, or frustrate and annoy me. Thats why I enjoy making games, I'm making the games I like, which other people arent making.
Tower defense was a good game, but a bit too slow paced and linear for me. I'd love a game exactly like tower defence, but without the linear path. So you build up your fortress, press a button, and watch all hell break loose as 8,000 orcs and trolls storm your castle. in all directions. with ladders. and lightning bolts :D
That would be awesome :D
papillon
02-21-2006, 11:12 AM
Most modern games, casual OR mainstream, bore me. I have weird tastes.
What have I played and enjoyed lately?
Another Code / Trace Memory, for the DS. I still like adventure games. Especially if they're not MYST-based. This one's a little short and simple, but it was fun for a few hours at least, and I was/am planning to resell it to recoup the costs anyway. (it's currently loaned out)
Kirby's Canvas Curse / Power Paintbrush, also DS. This is great fun, oldschool and innovative at the same time.
Ever 17 - Since you probably don't know this one, you can find out more about it here (http://affiliates.jlist.com/click/19?url=http://www.jbox.com/PRODUCT/HIRA010)
Non-hentai "visual novel" that seriously blew my mind. Some of you wouldn't consider this a game at all. :) So I'm frantically fangirling it to everyone I meet, hoping to drum up more interest in STORY games. Blowing stuff up is fun, but I also want more stories, please.
Christian
02-21-2006, 12:35 PM
For me, i still like to have fun, but most games of today dont provide me fun, im mean, im 23, when i was 7 or 12, i loved playing video games, but since games havent changed much, and my tastes madurated/changed, i cant keep playing the same old games i played back in those days, they just dont provide me with satisfaction/fun/enjoyement/amazement/amuzement/whatever, i need other kinds of games now, thats why i switched to the game of making games, thats really fun/exiting/rewarding... anyway, i cant keep playing much games because i have to share the computer and work and study.
Why is the pinball that comes with Windows less popular than the solitaire? I never see anyone play it...
It's the crappiest pinball I've ever seen, that's why I suppose.
It's the crappiest pinball I've ever seen, that's why I suppose.
Well. Even after I LOVE Armenia and peoples ther so much that pinball is awesome hit and peoples around like it a lot. May be because it goes for free. :) But anyway.
Sure thing any our is much better. But that's another story. ;)
Sharpfish
02-21-2006, 02:00 PM
What have I played and enjoyed lately?
Another Code / Trace Memory, for the DS.
My partner had this for Xmas (along with a few other DS games), she finished it in just over a day and half, but enjoyed it. I am NOW currently playing through it (only just started really - upto mine entrance). At the same time I am 2/3rds through RE4 and 1/3 into killer 7 on the gamecube.. and I still haven't started fzeroGX yet (after picking it up almost a year and half after it's release). I also need to finish metroid Prime.. and don't get me started on the PC stuff that is on my "to play" list ;)
Problem is - 14 hours a day WORKING on making a tiny little game leaves little spare time/energy for playing. When I get a break at the moment, I am watching comedy or trying to get out a bit (oh and do more excercise!!). I also have a shelf full of new books ready to read that again take a back seat to game dev.
I polled 115 people, btw.
arcadetown
02-22-2006, 06:01 PM
I've been stuck playing Curator Defense recently. One of the quirkiest yet entertaining games have seen in a while. Tower Defense also looking pretty sweet. Yay some new ideas being tried out!
Honestly I find precious few casual games entertain me. But most users are the same and that's why there needs to be lots of selection.
Killer pinball games - wildfire.com.au - Great looking, I really enjoyed playing them BUT - sold terribly and I delisted. Was a shame.
I am bored with the entire gaming industry right now. Looking forward to Crysis from Crytek.
Grey Alien
02-23-2006, 01:49 AM
I've played games since I was 8 on home computers, consoles, arcades and PC. I still play them now and constantly war between playing games and programming games, luckily I do more programming but I love games. I think it's pretty damned important to play games and like games if you are going to make them, how else are you going to be able to know if it's good objectively plus you can compare it to others that you liked.
berserker
02-23-2006, 02:28 AM
Most modern games, casual OR mainstream, bore me. I have weird tastes.
Have you played Chrono Trigger / Chrono Cross? I think those two games are the best things happened to video games since creation.
Personally I am also bored with PC games, I am heavily into emulation ATM. Have completed Final Fantasy 1-5 on NES and SNES emulators and had lots of fun. I do play some blockbusters like Need for Speed Most Wanted or Fable on PC but it's something like only 2-3 games per year.
Anthony Flack
02-23-2006, 03:22 AM
Having played thousands of games, it's pretty easy for me to hate a game or be instantly bored by it these days.
But having played thousands of games, I also find the occasional game which is awesome fun, even to a jaded old cynic.
Savant
02-23-2006, 03:24 AM
I do play some blockbusters like Need for Speed Most Wanted or Fable on PC but it's something like only 2-3 games per year.
The thing is, that's not really a new thing. It's always been about that rate. I remember back on the Commodore there were only a handful of great releases each year. In fact, every platform only has a few truly classic releases each year.
papillon
02-23-2006, 04:24 AM
I play lots of SNES emulation stuff, yes, but that doesn't counteract my statement that I have trouble finding *modern* games that please me. :)
I like the DS, but the pricetag on the games is so high that I can't afford to experiment with it. I wouldn't even have the console if I hadn't earned it with reward points from long years of pornmongering. And my local Blockbuster refuses to rent DS titles.
Savant
02-23-2006, 04:39 AM
www.gamefly.com
They happily rent DS games. :) And pretty much every other console...
berserker
02-23-2006, 04:59 AM
The thing is, that's not really a new thing. It's always been about that rate. I remember back on the Commodore there were only a handful of great releases each year. In fact, every platform only has a few truly classic releases each year.
Not every. PS2 has loads of cool titles I would love to play. The reason I don't have one is the same why I don't play MMORPGs - I don't want to get sucked and spend all my time playing instead of making games and earning some money :)
However if they will decide to release Chrono Cross sequel I would buy any console and will spend any amount of cash to obtain that.
papillon
02-23-2006, 05:57 AM
I'm not in gamefly's service area. :)
There is swapgame.com that operates in the UK, but I don't know anyone who uses it so I don't know how reliable they are. I will probably join them at some point when their selection gets a bit bigger.
soniCron
02-23-2006, 01:42 PM
Not every. PS2 has loads of cool titles I would love to play. The signal to noise ratio of the PS2 is about that of every other modern console, maybe just a little higher. (In fact, I'd venture to say the GameCube has an even more consistent quality of game, but I don't want to be labeled as a fanboy.) The truth is that the easier it is to release a game on a system, the more crap there will be. Future technology -- like peer recommendations and automated suggestions -- may weed out this trend and make it easier to find the quality titles, but we'll really only see that with a predominantly download-available market combined with decent search and organization capabilities. (And all the major portals are really dropping the ball on this one, else we'd already see this in the casual gamespace.)
An excellent system with many unique, fun games? PC Engine/TurboGrafx 16. Now that was a solid system! :)
arcadetown
02-23-2006, 11:25 PM
PS2 has loads of cool titles I would love to play. The reason I don't have one is the same why I don't play MMORPGs - I don't want to get sucked and spend all my time playing instead of making games and earning some money :)
Why Half Life 2 has been sitting in unopened box on my desk for many months. I know if I open it you can kiss good bye an entire week.
Why not have a little quick fun? Nothing to do with sales. Just pure stupid fun online games. No huge $$ involved so devs take more risks and have more fun.
HeavyGames Top Game Picks (http://www.heavygames.com/top_games.asp)
My personal favs... Stick Arena, DadNMe, Castle Attack 2, Pimp's Quest, and kick a-- Divine Intervention (what the heck is inside that Bible!).
electronicStar
02-24-2006, 01:51 PM
Why Half Life 2 has been sitting in unopened box on my desk for many months. I know if I open it you can kiss good bye an entire week.
The same reason why I turned into a computer-squirrel. There is a big compartment in my desk table that is full of unopened videogames,DVDs and novels (mainly sci-fi). I think I might be turning a bit obsessive/maniacal.
rioka
02-24-2006, 02:04 PM
I'm kind of glad new games bore me. One less game to distract me. ;)
Edtharan
02-24-2006, 08:24 PM
I tend to like RPG games. But the gameplay of these (so called) RPG games are more of an Action-Adventure game (at best).
I would like to see more RPG that don't have sword swinging barbarians or spell slinging socrerers. I think that CRPGs could be made for the casual market. Instead of having hundreds or numbers and stats to represent a character, why not eliminate them, Why not eleiminate the concept of a lone character fighting monsters and baddies to gain experience.
Here is my simple sugestion for a CRPG that breaks the mold.
The character would be a lord of a castle with some land. They will spend most of the time in thier castle dealing with situations that arise like settling disputes between powerful nobles that are under them. These will be essentually random, but ther can be a system that can control who, what, andwhen these occure (if you want). The decissions that the player makes in this will effect other aspects of the game (some noble might defect to another lord if they get too offended by your actions, or some peasants might rebel if you tax them too hard).
Other lords (either players in an MMOG or an AI system for single player games) will also have to deal wioth these situations. You can ask for help from them (puting you in debt to them) or they might ask you for help (and owe you a favour). Some times the animosity between 2 or more lords might actualy spill over into actual conflict. This might be a chalance to a sword duel or invasion of armies.
If it is the sword duel then you will enter a sub game where you have a basic beat-em-up. In the castle part of the game you can choose to spen time training so you are a better warrior and can take and deal more damage (essentially the controls would be move, swing and block).
If you the confilct involves armies you have a simple RTS game where you just direct troops around the battle field (no buildings and simple controls - select group of units, tell them to move to a location or attack an enemy group). Conquering enemy lands gives you more land that you have to control and more resources you can gather.
Armies will be built in the castle phase of the game by hireing and equiping the troops. This will take resources and people from your lands (the less people the less resources you can gather).
You character can marry and produce children. If yuo main character dies and you have an heir of suitable age you will be able to take over that heir as your new character and continue the game. If you don't have a suitable heir then game over.
Stats are replaced by the attitude of the various factions within and outside your controled teritory. The only real traditional "stats" are in the beat-em-up section and they are your character's ability to give and take damage.
Because no subgame is too complex on its own it is suitable for the more casual gamer that does not want to spend hours learning complex controls.
This is the type of RPG I'd like to see produced (evan as an MMOG). It is not the hack and slash game becaue the focus is on the attitudes of the various factions.
papillon
02-25-2006, 05:01 AM
There's a lot of ways RPGs could be made more casual that haven't been tried yet. Fate was great fun, but simple for the casual gamer it wasn't. :)
Heck, if someone attached graphics to Progress Quest, it could probably become an award-winning screensaver if nothing else. :)
Artinum
02-25-2006, 07:43 AM
The complexity and convoluted controls are what puts a casual gamer off RPGs. I'm sure they've got worse for this over time!
Perhaps the solution is to reverse this trend - make RPGs simpler. Throw out all those complex stats and the race/character generation stuff. Cut down the number of initial choices (what's the difference between a battlemage or a sorceror? Why have bizarre choices like "Acrobat"?). Make the game faster to get started in.
Adventure games went in a similar pattern - they started off as text input, text output. Fairly simplistic, as the computing power wasn't enough for much more than "get sword" and "kill wizard". Then they got more complex, with such hideous parsing as "kill the red dragon with the ruby sword". I remember being utterly stuck on my old Atari 65XE's "Cloak of Death" because I didn't realise the locked chest had to be "kick"ed. The nastiest lexicography award has to go to "T-Zero", which contained a host of bad puns and cryptic clues.
In short, text adventures got more complex and the parser and vocabulary evolved beyond the appeal of the casual gamer.
Then a new game style appeared - the graphical adventure. Gone were the text entries - instead a simple selection of 9-16 commands existed at the bottom and you merely chose one of these, then the object (in your inventory or on the screen) you wished to influence. Though hardly the first to use this system, there can't be many here who haven't heard of Monkey Island. Suddenly, adventure games had mass appeal again!
Perhaps a similar system would work here - RPGs with intuitive controls, less minutiae amongst the classes/monsters/spells/items.
I'd also suggest something else, that may attract criticism from many. Keep it constructive folks. Deep breath... RPGs are often very dull because - to the casual gamer - they're all the same. They all have elves and wizards and warriors and the usual quest (find the mythical X, kill the evil Y, blah blah blah) and there's no interest. There's no story to it. While this may not be true to those keen on the genre, the casual gamer isn't going to bother looking more closely. Instead of a typical random hack'n'slash, why not do something original? Why not have a story?
This is the one element in particular that impressed me about the Final Fantasy games. They have a storyline but retain the essential freedom of RPGs everywhere. More, they introduce elements slowly - FF8, for instance, limits your characters geographically; as the story progresses, you get to explore more regions. Different regions have different monsters, magics, items. There is a sense of progression.
Another element to consider is the setting. There's no need to have your RPG set in a dungeon filled with the usual monsters. "Space Hulk" is a form of RPG, but with guns rather than swords and bows, and not an elf in sight. The Battlescape sections of the Xcom games are a turn-based RPG, with much more atmosphere due to the contemporary setting.
Change the setting, the quest/story, the overcomplicated interface and the style - gamers may find they're having fun without ever realising they're playing an RPG.
berserker
02-25-2006, 08:33 AM
The truth is that the easier it is to release a game on a system, the more crap there will be.
So now you are trying to say it's easy to release PS2 title?
Why Half Life 2 has been sitting in unopened box on my desk for many months. I know if I open it you can kiss good bye an entire week.
Honestly I hated HL2. I've tried to play it several times but no success. I always gad some strange nausea feeling every time I tried to play it. Strangely enough I blew Doom 3 and FarCry in no time. FarCry is my personal favorite for this genre ATM.
Why not have a little quick fun? Nothing to do with sales. Just pure stupid fun online games. No huge $$ involved so devs take more risks and have more fun.
Not my cup of tea really. I rather prefer some complex RPGs or some small casual downloadable titles that are easy and fun to play and I have to try them anyway in order to be in touch with current market :)
soniCron
02-25-2006, 02:34 PM
So now you are trying to say it's easy to release PS2 title? No. I said the signal to noise ratio was rather good. (Ratios have me confused: High is better, or low is better?)
MikeRozak
02-25-2006, 03:33 PM
Artinum wrote:
I'd also suggest something else, that may attract criticism from many. Keep it constructive folks. Deep breath... RPGs are often very dull because - to the casual gamer - they're all the same.
Shhh... Your post is giving away too much. ;) The more people spend their time trying to reproduce yet another dungeon bash with elves, the more they'll fail, and the less competition there will be for people (like me) that are looking into different directions.
And I also disagree ;) with your comment about not asking heaps of questions when players start. CRPGs should make players spend at least an hour (maybe two) configuring statistics, class, skills, and race before playing.
I have a heap of random thoughts about trying to make a more casual-friendly CRPG/MMORPG scattered throughout http://www.mxac.com.au/drt.
soniCron
02-25-2006, 03:37 PM
If any RPG would be attractive to casual gamers, Earthbound would be it. It may be a little too cute, but the simplicity is there and an excellent starting place to look if you're thinking of developing RPGs for the casual audience.
If any RPG would be attractive to casual gamers, Earthbound would be it. It may be a little too cute, but the simplicity is there and an excellent starting place to look if you're thinking of developing RPGs for the casual audience.
paper mario is a good example of a casual rpg.
soniCron
02-25-2006, 04:31 PM
paper mario is a good example of a casual rpg. I'd say its theme makes it not a good example. Because it builds on the Mario franchise, I think it's that much more hardcore and inaccessible to people unfamiliar with the Nintendo/Mario world. (And having played Super Mario Bros. 1 as a pre-requisite isn't sufficient.) Earthbound, on the other hand, exists in a "normal" world, in which you fight rabid dogs, crazy hippies, and the like. While the mechanics of Paper Mario are simple, the theme restricts it severely. But the mechanics in Paper Mario are far more accessible than the mechanics in Earthbound, so a combination of the two would be ideal.
Fry Crayola
02-25-2006, 04:44 PM
Unluckily, I'm not bored by games at the moment. I say unluckily because it means I do less work, but then having only one computer in the house (for another fortnight, at least) and a girlfriend who loves tycoon games and point n click adventures it's highly unlikely I'd get time to do any more anyhow.
When I do get that new computer, I'm going to have some hard decisions to make. Although generally each year I'll be luckily if there's even two "must play" titles that make me drop everything. Which my 18-game strong unfinished (most unplayed) pile attests to.
Leper
03-03-2006, 10:34 AM
New games have bored me recently as well.
First of all, a lot of puzzle games just dont cut it, and I know I'm not alone. People are copying what sold yesterday and thinking it sells tomorrow and sadly that only works for so long.
Lets add a little variety please. I'm sick and tired of Match 3 games and puzzle inlay clones. I'm sick of solitaire and I'm sick of serving beer / ice cream / dinner.
vBulletin v3.6.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.