Fuddy Duddy

[DanMarshall]

I just had an email from a 13-year old kid who had played the demo of my game from the coverdisk of PCZone magazine. He made some nice comments, thought it was great, pointed out a bug. Fair enough.

Well, I told him that 13 is far too young to be playing Gibbage. It has blood and bouncing heads in it. I told him he's not to play it again, until he checks with his father, first...

How responsible am I? I was quite proud of myself at first. But then, I was playing DooM when I was 13, and that's _much_ worse than a comedy knock-about cartoon Deathmatch game. What do you think?

d

[Savant]

My only advice is: you're not his Father. Don't act like it.

Besides that he's already laughed, deleted your email and now considers you a jerk. :)

[DanMarshall]

That's fair enough. I am a jerk, after all...

[Alex Hanson-White]

His father probably bought the magazine for him for all you know.
I'd leave parenting for the parents.

[dmikesell]

I'd leave parenting for the parents.

They do such wonderful jobs. He essentially verbalized what a rating system does. When Sega puts Mature ratings on their games, are they butting into the parents' lives?

[Nikster]

Wasn't there a lawsuit brought upon Rockstar for some woman buying her grandson GTA VC ? suing on the grounds it contained sex scenes ala hot coffee.. he was only 12/13 or so, so shouldn't even have been handling the game. Now, I don't know if the indie net distrubtion side has actually starting merging toward the everyone is getting sued for stuff, I imagine it will start happening at some point.. so from a buisness sense I agree with what Dan did, whether the kid was impressed on not and issue, trying to protect a buisness is..

But that's just being over cautious though ;)

[Ricardo C]

The school where I teach bought a few games for the kids to play after computer class. The kids have all the Harry Potter games, A few Need for Speed games (they love to a) customize their cars, and b) driving solely to cause spectacular crashes), a bunch of Disney titles, Rugrats, Ummi, etc. etc. A few of the kids (mostly aged 9-11) have asked me for everything from Counterstrike to GTA San Andreas. I tell them I'm not going to allow violent games regardless of rating, and definitely no M-rated games. They weren't too bothered, since they have the games at home anyway, either because their parents still picture Contra when they think "violent videogames", and don't consider games as something to be watchful about, or because they simply don't care.

My point? Like you said, our generation was playing Wolfenstein/Doom/ROTT/Heretic/Blood in our teens, so why assume today's kids are supposed to somehow be more innocent than we were? I'm not knocking you for what you said to the kid (it's the right thing to do, plus if that kid ever turns out to be a serial killer, your ass is covered :D), but really, don't lose sleep over it either way

[soniCron]

My point? Like you said, our generation was playing Wolfenstein/Doom/ROTT/Heretic/Blood in our teens, so why assume today's kids are supposed to somehow be more innocent than we were? I don't think that anyone's assuming kids should be more innocent than us, but there is a world of difference between Blood and Manhunt, and this difference will only further widen as time goes on. When kids are playing games with no perceptible difference from reality, other than perhaps a HUD, what then?

[Anthony Flack]

Blood and bouncing heads? Sounds exactly like the games I was playing at that age. Sounds exactly like the kinds of pictures boys will draw at that age. I think you were awfully patronising to the poor guy. 13-year-olds aren't stupid, they understand joke violence.

[NothingLikeit]

I hate to sound like a 21 year old going on 80 here, but today's kids are worse than we were last decade. They know more than we did at the same age. I honestly don't think playing a GTA or DOOM is going to influence them that much. Hell they've probably heard/seen worse in school or on tv. A 5-8 year old playing Killzone would be bad though.

That said, I'd let the parents be responsible. They need to do thier jobs and take the heat off of us.

[TimS]

I was playing DooM when I was 13, and that's _much_ worse than a comedy knock-about cartoon Deathmatch game

If your game is mild in comparison to Doom... rest assured that any 13-year-old gamer that takes the time to report bugs to developers has seen MUCH worse than your game (or really any game) could manage. He was probably playing Postal when he was 8... Postal 2 when he was 11...

I've got to agree with Mr. Flack on this one... not only is 13 old enough to understand joke violence, but it's also at about the age to shut down your website, seed your fileplanet demo (once there is one) with a latent virus, and get himself a new laptop on your wife's credit card just to spite you for being older than he is.

Hell -- we should consider ourselves lucky that kids these days only seem to know more about games and violence than we do... in another 10 years the average 13 year old will likely know more about sex, drugs, art, religion, science, philosophy, and game development than us...

At any rate -- you made the game... did you intend to only amuse adults with your skills? Spread the love... Many here probably would've liked such a violent game MORE when they were 13.

I'm sure he'll be fine -- with or without parental consent... Don't worry about him or your reaction.

p.s. -- is there / when will there be a downloadable demo of this Gibbage game? Let me pollute my adult mind! :D

[bob123]

Most kids start playing games such as Half Life at about 8 :p

[Grey Alien]

hmm I was ummm 18/19 when Doom came out so some of you must be real youngins. I built my own AMD DX4 100, 4MB RAM to play it and it rocked! I packed my Amiga1200 away that day and never used it since.

[HairyTroll]

Anyone here remember Barbarian by Palace Software for the Amiga?

- Remember the outfit the woman was wearing on the cover?
- Remember how a roundhouse would slice off your opponents head, blood spewing everywhere.
- Remember how the little green goblin would walk onscreen and drag off the dead body, while kicking the head like a football?

Ah, those were the days. I was 16 when I played it back in '88. Awsome game.

[Andy]

...today's kids are worse than we were last decade. They know more than we did at the same age...

:o And? :)

[Gilzu]

Ah, those were the days. I was 16 when I played it back in '88. Awsome game.

Ah.. the good times...

in about '90 when i was 8, I already played it along with Golden Axe and other similiar games. Even though Barbarian had much lower graphic quality, I liked it more because i had the chance of rippin my brother's head off. ROFL... I remember how fun it was.

Did it make me (more?) violent? I don't think so.

The same year I also saw Bugs Bunny drops a 500lbs anvil ontop of that annoying duck, I saw the A-team & Airwolf blast away through evil guys (I don't think I even knew english that time, it was just fun) and much more.

I think that by watching violence, I had the change to actually relief my aggression through it. Its the same as saying "I could use a good action movie right now".

[Abscissa]

That *is* very patronizing. If it were me, even at the age, you would have lost a customer for life. Adults don't usually realize how much patronizing bullshit kids and ESPECIALLY teens have to put up with, every single day. There's a VERY good reason so many young adults are so incredibly jaded these days, everyone treats them like subhuman shit.

[Ricardo C]

Consider this, though: Let's say Dan told the kid "thanks for the compliments, glad you enjoyed the game", and the kid eventually goes on to do something stupid, like robbing a shop or shooting someone. How long do you think it would be before the media pointed fingers at Dan and accused him of pushing violent games on a child?

[soniCron]

Adults don't usually realize how much patronizing bullshit kids and ESPECIALLY teens have to put up with, every single day. There's a VERY good reason so many young adults are so incredibly jaded these days, everyone treats them like subhuman shit. If they want respect, they've got to earn it. I've known a ton of kids through my life, and the ones that earned respect got it. The majority, however, were either idiots or punks, neither deserving of respect. The pretentiousness of kids and teens is a huge factor of why they get treated as they do. Do you believe it to be otherwise?

[Abscissa]

If they want respect, they've got to earn it. I've known a ton of kids through my life, and the ones that earned respect got it. The majority, however, were either idiots or punks, neither deserving of respect. The pretentiousness of kids and teens is a huge factor of why they get treated as they do. Do you believe it to be otherwise?

Sure, some of them are pretentious and idiotic. But they are absolutely no more rude, idiotic, or pretentious than adults. But that doesn't even matter...

It is no better to categorize an entire age group as pretentious, ignorant, deviant, etc., than to categorize an entire race or gender as such.

Do you expect people in other groups to earn your respect? Do you go around claiming that "women are too unintelligent to vote except for the individuals who prove themselves smart enough"? Do you claim that "black people can't be trusted except for the individuals who prove themselves trustworthy"? If some individual proves themself to be bad in some way, then fine, regard that individual as bad. But no person within ANY given demographic should have to prove themself good. What the "majority" of your experiences have been is completely irrelevent - this is a matter of principle.

And even if you can claim that age is somehow ok to prejudge (a very tough sell), then don't fool yourself into thinking that they will be any less offended - even outright hostile - than the victim of any other blatant discrimination.

[DanMarshall]

Woah. Did this ever get off topic. My fault: there were a few facts I omitted. Apologies.

Let me clarify: I was very nice. I wrote a great long email thanking him for his comments and discussing the bug he found. I said how pleased and grateful I am that people take the time to play my game, let alone send me an email with feedback.

The email he sent inferred that he'd been playing it behind his dad's back. I just felt that, given his young age and the fact that he was playing it against his kid sister, I ought to at least make sure his dad was cool with violence and extreme bloodshed - no matter how comical it may be. I didn't want an angry Dad hunting me down for encouraging his son to go against his wishes. No matter how illogical that course of action may be.

I'm against censorship in games, I don't believe in any link whatsoever between games and real life violence.

I do, however, believe wholeheartedly that when a situation such as this arises, I have some degree of responsability. Both to the kid, and my own ass.

d

[Abscissa]

Let me clarify: I was very nice. I wrote a great long email thanking him for his comments and discussing the bug he found. I said how pleased and grateful I am that people take the time to play my game, let alone send me an email with feedback.

The email he sent inferred that he'd been playing it behind his dad's back. I just felt that, given his young age and the fact that he was playing it against his kid sister, I ought to at least make sure his dad was cool with violence and extreme bloodshed - no matter how comical it may be. I didn't want an angry Dad hunting me down for encouraging his son to go against his wishes. No matter how illogical that course of action may be.

Ahh, I see. In that case, I think it's all about careful wording. For example, putting it in a matter-of-fact, almost form-letter-sounding style could sidestep any misinterpretation of "he should/shouldn't play it", although at the risk of being cold and impersonal. Or at least something that doesn't come across as a command like "he's not to play it again, until he checks with his father, first" (Although I realize you're just paraphrasing your actual email).

To be clear, I can understand the position you're in with that. My opinion is that this is one case of "it's all in the details."