looking for web design work [Archive] - Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards

Sharpfish

01-30-2006, 09:52 AM

Have you got a link for the client's web site? It is very hard to judge positively just using your site as a yardstick.. I really am not trying to be mean but as the others already pointed out it is not a site that would inspire me to hire you.

I have to ask if you are confusing technical skills with design skills because frankly I can see no natural "talent" coming through in this new web site design or the previous one - they are both of the same cloth, which is to say extremely basic and quite old fashioned looking.

I am probably going to piss you (or others) off, I usually look for the positive in other peoples work but sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. I personally feel on the evidence so far, and the fact that you think your new site is a positive re-design of the old that you lack perspective on what is good or just have very low standards.

And i'm no smart-ass either, I endlessly toil with my web-sites, always re-designing them because I am never happy. If I feel I get something right with the graphical side I then feel let down by the usability and performance for instance. Usually though it is evident that a designer has either gone for straight out usability OR great graphical design.. ( at the moment I am low in both categories and readily admit it). I built my first web site in 1998, I did everything wrong.. every time I have needed to build another I have researched the topic more and more. Learned about php, css, graphic optimisation, SEO, dynamic updating, cms, interface design. It simply is a lot bigger task than most people originally think.

I guess the clearest way to say it is, someone who knows how to fire up an ftp program and call a page index.blah is not by default a "designer" (me included).

So you either have to dedicate more time to learning about actual web design or move on to other things. I had dreams of being a web-designer back in the late 90's when the whole world was setting up their own web-design businesses. I realised that it's a tough world to compete in and felt my own skills were average at best. I felt comfortable doing stuff for my own sites and for friends, but to charge someone the going rate back then for what I could have produced (which would have been only a little better than what I see on your site) would have left me feeling guilty.

I didn't just want to post and say "your website looks rubbish" because that is not helpful, I wanted to give detailed feedback on why I think you need to improve in certain areas, especially given you are canvassing for paid work!

Don't take it as negativity, it's just reality. You have the choice on whether or not to spend the next year becomming the best damn website creator you know (because if you have the will, that counts for a lot), but some subjective quality control will also be needed. I'm not sure if you have that.

Look around at really good sites that you admire/inspire you graphically/thematically. Then look for the ones that give you the best user experience (i.e not drowned in flash but quick loading stuff). Then aim to emulate those two extrememes somewhere in the middle and add your own ideas instead. It is hard but do-able (if you have the passion).

I too noticed the grammar as being very poor in general. I took a look at your profile on here to see if I could find your age (sorry if that sounds rude) and I notice you had grammatical errors in that also, as you work in a bank though I will assume you are intelligent enough for them to just be oversights. However that is a very big deal if you are trying to SELL your services where spelling / context matters.

What are your general 2D art skills like? (Photoshop etc) if you are being a jack-of-all-trades designer you will need at least intermediate skills in all the areas of web site production from coding, writing to graphics.

How long did you work on that site btw? As a general idea I would say that would have taken the average designer (who knows his tools and is not coding in notepad ;) ) probably around 10 minutes? I think a week to 2 weeks could easily be spent on just getting the look of a site right and that's before even thinking about the backend and all the coding.

Good luck with whichever path you choose to take but remember nothing is for free :)

NothingLikeit

01-30-2006, 09:51 PM

wow..... as always I appreciate all of the constructive criticism even if I am disappointed by the lack of advice toward the orignal question.

Anyway:

Sharpfish to answer you several questions.

1) I'm 21 and yes the gramatical errors are probably just oversights.

2) That site was my first crack at Css if you recall the site looked waay worse since the pages weren't even consistent.

3) It's really premature to call the site good but now I'm to the point of not knowing how to make it look good. I know it sucks

4) The customers I was thinking about getting work from would be people with zero web design or even technological experience. Yeah it sounds horrible, but the way i figure it is I can give them a site for a low price, relatively quickly, and learn more about web design at the same time

In the event of my first client it was a job for my friend's mother. I hated the site but she loves it so I lucked out. I still feel guilty about the look of the site so I keep working on it to make it look better.

Oh by the way the site is on the portfolio page of my site. (The "our portfolio" link)

Or just look at it here. (http://www.higgsphonics.com)

Any feedback for that?

5) I don't really care how you define a 'designer' but I'm using dreamweaver for my pages. Should I be coding this in note pad to be considered a real designer?

6) Oh and I want to do games mostly which is why I'm here but I'm trying to find other ways to fund the development of them. Since I've got no industry experience and I"m still in art school those are out.

So thanks again.

oh and for future critism don't even bother saying "I don't wanna be rude" because if you have to say that before it probably is. But honestly I take no offense to what you say so let it rip.

Drakkheim

01-30-2006, 11:03 PM

For getting new clients the best way is to approach companies who do not have a web presence and with whom you already have some sort of a relationship. Ie, your dentist, apartment complex, comicbook shop etc etc.. places where you already know people and you have connections. Cold calling will generally not produce results UNLESS you can provide a service to the client which is unavailable anywhere else and fills a gap in their business.

Unfortunatly the days of the small individual web designer are probably numbered. The ease and availability of templates on the web (do a google) allows anyone to quickly and easily get a fairly decent looking site in little to no time, and if it's beyond their skills they can probably have their kids do it.

However, if you're really interested in becoming a web designer there is still plenty of opportunities available, but you will need to to know more than HTML and CSS. You will need to be able to speak to businesses in terms of how to make the web work for them, integration into their current business model, customer retention, employee resources, ie your value proposition. In short larger jobs making the web DO stuff instead of looking pretty.

And for that you need a bigger toolbox to bring with you when you talk to the client. Learn javascript, php, perl, mySQL, C#, VB, SQL, coldFusion, java, flash, actionscript etc. Maybe not all of em, but enough that you adapt/create to your client's infrastructure and needs as needed. Study interface design, and graphic design and learn the associated applications (photoshop, visio and excel are my essential toolkit). Learn how the various webservers work for things like SSL and managing certificates and security and optimization configurations (if you're going to be managing your client's hosting as well)

And by the way, there is nothing wrong with dreamweaver, its my web design app of choice and it really makes my life easier.
The point is though, know what the software is doing and why things work the way that they do. You SHOULD be able to write everyting in notepad, but just be happy that you don't NEED to.

And because you asked here is some crits of the biggest probleme with the higgsphonics.com site.

1)dithered graphics. bad. don't do it. those images would look just fine if you made them jpgs or used more colors in em.]
2)textured background on the vertical menu. The menu should be easy and quick to navigate, the busy pattern makes it almost unreadable.
3)the company name and tag line are getting lost. Big Big nono.
4)Mixing fonts. Serif and Sans-Serif should be mixed with care. It can look good if done right but make every decision conciously.
5)Scaling. the site looks 200% better when the top and bottom portions both fill the entire screen. however running at a higher resolution disjoins the menus. (try aligning the bottom part to the left so it flows down from the top properly)
6)clipArt. Did you 'borrow' that clip art? the style of the art images on the site clash with the site and with each other both in color and style. try istockphoto.com and develop an unified style for the site.
7)your color choices are poor. Find a book on color theory. and in the meanwhile play with http://colormixers.com/mixers/cmr/ for inspiration.

best of luck.

TimS

01-31-2006, 12:50 AM

But honestly I take no offense to what you say so let it rip.
Rock. You're a freakin' warrior if you can honestly take this position. I'm not so good at accepting the negative opinions of others.

That in mind, let the letting begin.

As I've commented in the past -- there IS a market for your web design skills, but it is a much less savvy audience even than would be considered "average" these days. I would suggest hitting up retirement communities... there are still some old folks that don't know what flash is. You could also advertise on the placemat at your local "family style" restaurants...

In all seriousness, you should not be asking for people's money for your web design abilities. Most folks buying a $20 "web-site-in-a-box" solution from Office Max will end up with something that looks just slightly better than NothingLikeItGames.com or the Higgs Phonics site.

Should I be coding this in note pad to be considered a real designer?
Nope -- DreamWeaver is a perfectly legitimate design tool. You've got to have some talent though.... for art, for aesthetics... something. Your site frightens me... your game demo frightens me further... The typical use for a website is to bring attention to oneself or one's doings... is that really what you desire at this stage of the game?

It isn't even that I mean to be rude so much as there comes a time where a dose of reality is all there is left to administer.

I've spruced up my own site a bit and I just completed a web design job for my first client.

Your site is not spruced up... it is the same as it was (at a certain point on the chart, all numbers round off to the same value). Your first "client".... clients are for web design firms... you brought someone without a web presence into the world of the web... (a nice thing to do). You can continue to do this, and probably make money at it, but you're going to have to make victims out of those that know no better. Consider if this is what you want to do... if it is, then marketing is all you'll really need.

I hope I haven't been too... grumpy. I get that way, sometimes.

-T

oNyx

01-31-2006, 12:57 AM

[...]
Or just look at it here. (http://www.higgsphonics.com)

Any feedback for that?
[...]

That yellow is pretty agressive. You shouldnt use colors like this. And all that dithering. No margins. Hm.

[...]
5) I don't really care how you define a 'designer' but I'm using dreamweaver for my pages. Should I be coding this in note pad to be considered a real designer?
[...]

Whatever works for you.

I'm using Inkscape for the rough layout, Photoshop 6.0 for slicing/touchup/whatever, Textpad as editor and xampp for local testing.

A complete page like this one (http://kaioa.com/k/btg2/test.html) (can't link to the real page :P) with all content, additional scripts, additonal styling, additional graphics, clean urls and IE fixes is about a week's work. Yes, 40 hours. (I must admit that I wasted quite some time with that tiny theming engine and getting caching to work properbly) Using a CMS needs about as much time, but then there is additional maintenance stuff and I couldn't be arsed in this case.

I made my first page about... lets see... 7-8 years ago (with notpad, font tags, many frames, javascript, midi lol... the horror). The more pages you make the better you'll get at it. I made massive improvements during the last 2 years, where I actually spend some time on that topic.

Well, I said whatever works for you. But it might be a good idea to ditch dreamweaver for now. Use some text editor with highlighting and read some stuff over at:

http://alistapart.com/
http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/
http://www.mezzoblue.com/zengarden/resources/
etc

My markup for example looks pretty minimalistic (compared to your's). There is only one bit, which isnt really necessary for this structure. Well, its only there for IE and its imo the most robust workaround. (For those who care: There is #text and #textwrap. I float one to the left and the other to the right for getting the margins on both sides of the text. It simply works in all browsers like that - no css hacks involved.)

And your markup... well, its cluttered with font tags. The difference is your pages are (relatively) huge, changing the look of the page means that you need to edit all other pages (lots of work) and updates of the content also take more time. If it isn't a fire and forget page, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

(Fire and forget pages are usually useless anyways. They shouldn't be created in first place.)

Sharpfish

01-31-2006, 02:55 AM

Just to be clear - I never said I had anything against dreamweaver or wysi-almost-wyg editors. I was in fact saying that "throwing some html into NOTEPAD and uploading it" is not being a "designer", there is also a clear distinction between someone who is a designer and someone who is a techy hacker. A designer has implicit (or learned) design *skills* and is normally from an art background rather than a coding one (I am from a coding one by the way).

In much the same way, in the retail games industry everyone thinks they are/can be game "designers" but in fact are creative coders or idealistic artists. Somewhere, although the lines can be crossed as many of us do, there takes a specific person to do a specific task 100%. That is a designer. This is semantics though and for all our purposes (the indie spirit etc) we are all designers if we work on our own sites, and games (even as "mainly" coders, or
"mainly" artists). That was just to clarify my "definition of a designer" even though you say you didn't care for it ;)

I use dreamweaver also, but as mentioned it has it's faults, it bloats code, sometimes it doesn't play nicely but the point is if you are using it then there is no excuse to make a bad looking site with all the help and assistance it can give you (though as always it is possible to do that - but if you have invested in something like DW then looking up the tutorials and reading all the references should get you a long way, that would be the first step imo).

rgds

Polycount Productions

01-31-2006, 04:54 AM

Hello,

As many of you know Ive been trying to get work in web design. The situation has changed a bit. I've spruced up my own site a bit and I just completed a web design job for my first client. So my question is now what?

Fixing up my own site and having a happy customer has given me the confidence continue improving in web design. But how can I find more work if the client doesn't have many or any references?

How exactly do most graphic or web designers get clients?

A) remember to sell that first customer again ;)
B) Ask for referrals
C) How did you get the first client anyway?
D) polish your own site :)

Good luck with your venture

Christian

01-31-2006, 07:08 AM

well, charge very cheap at first, this way you wont need much referals.
With this way you will get referals, and they recommend you if you have super-good customer support, you have to very a good communicator, have a LOT of patience with your customer, give they everything they want, this way they will think you are great and they will recommend you or even give you some more work after time, also make a lot of questions so they know you know what you are doing and they see that you are very interested and commited.

try this sites: www.getafreelancer.com , www.scriptlance.com , www.rentacoder.com ,the compeitition is tough though...

Good luck! and learn more and more! you have to increase your skills to get josb too!
(by the way, im not a web designer, im a graphic designer, but i felt the same thing like you when i started).

NothingLikeit

01-31-2006, 07:26 AM

As always I value the opinions of this group. To the lay person though my sites look fine. So thanks for the reality check. I'm going to take the advice of delving deeper into tutorials. It's funny I was talking to a guy at work he also said the same thing.

1) Build portfolio (with actual sites)
2) Network (I don't know how I'm gonna get out more than I do but I'm gonna work more on step 1 first)
3) Uh I don't know make a mint..... :p

But seriously folks thanks for bursting my bubble. I'm not gonna stop trying to help smaller companies get online though. I'm just not gonna worry about approaching larger businesses until I'm more experienced. I don't plan to leave the companies I do complete work for 'stranded' with a bad site either. As I learn....I'll make thier's and my own site look better.

Oh and about Hero... I recently decided that I'm not going to develop it as a World War II game in 3d Gamestudio. I realized that It doesn't provide me with everything I'll need to create the experience I'm going for. So I'm going over to another engine. I realize the demo sucks but I realeased it anyway. Why? Because apparently your first 10 games are supposed to suck. Soooo 1 down 9 to go. (Well like 5 if you count the early HS programs) Maybe I'll put up a disclaimer that says "Student designer, will get better")

TimS

01-31-2006, 11:41 PM

I recently decided that I'm not going to develop it as a World War II game in 3d Gamestudio. I realized that It doesn't provide me with everything I'll need to create the experience I'm going for.

The engine had problems? Which engine are you switching to? I don't think the engine you use matters too much... pick any from the top 10 commercial or open source engines used by independent game developers and they can likely be modified / manipulated to do whatever game you need.

Why? Because apparently your first 10 games are supposed to suck. Soooo 1 down 9 to go. (Well like 5 if you count the early HS programs) Maybe I'll put up a disclaimer that says "Student designer, will get better")

This is true. However -- most folks skip public flaunting of their early stuff. If the 'company' was formed 'as a high school project', then is it really what you want to project to your audience as you work your way toward being a professional game developer? Capitalize your sentences (and your headers... hell... your name in the copyright notice). Having NO capital letters on your site screams of laziness or the lack of grasp over English as a language. Your site would be expected ... as would the demo, if the front page said something to the effect of, "Hi. Me and my artist friend are in High School and we're gunning for making games professionally one day. Pop by from time to time and you can track our progress as we carve our niche in the seamy underbelly of the games industry, bringing unforseen enthusiasm to learning those skills necessary to make our way in the industry we love."

Instead we're treated to "our company" links, "so you wanna be an indie?" articles (which might be interesting if written from a position of EXTREME authority, but otherwise borderline on silliness... it's a Slopery slope, that), and claims like: "Okay for everyone who's been waiting patiently for an update on Hero and Armors you're in luck. They've both been given their own sections on the site." Um... there are people waiting? Really? Where are these sections? This was 9/27/05? Huh?

In short, your name (Nothing Like It Games as well as your birth name) will follow you... best not pretend to be what you aren't AND make a spectacle about it by having a website on the matter -- you never know who might see it. YOU might be able to look back at your 'old' stuff and laugh at how odd it all was, but Joe McPotentialEmployerOrEvenEmployee might not be able to get past the first impression s/he was set up with.

You seem to take criticism well... so I hope that this post wasn't too much... and I hope my point serves some use for you as you continue to mull things over...

-Tim

NothingLikeit

02-01-2006, 07:58 AM

I take critiscism well but it doesn't stop it from stinging at first. I do realize that everything that's been said is true. I'm going to change the site but for some reason I feel the need to have something there. I paid for the domain name and monthly hosting charges after all. It would be silly to have wasted space. Does any one have ideas on what to post there in the meantime?

Concerning the game demo:

That was my last link to the HS projects so everything else will just be my professional efforts. I am using Gamestudio for my current engine. I also have the torque engine. Both are perfectly capable engines, however, I feel that the World War II shooter would be best suited for torque. (The multiplayer support is already built in.)

The language of the site is bad. That will change as well. This mostly came from a poor CSS style choice. I did write those articles a while ago. My original plan was to create a game download site/indie game news site. I found out that was easier said than done. I am in a state of transition I believe. Back in High school/early college no one that I knew of that was doing stuff like this. And you'd be suprised people that aren't you all don't see what you see. to them it looks fine. I personally know that it's not good. In refference to your other question: It's entirely possible that someone somewhere wanted info on the games I'm making. I mostly just posted it that way since I had not updated the site in a while.

Since everyone is posting advice about what to do at that start, when decide "Okay this is something I can show" or better still. "This is something people will be willing to pay for."

GBGames

02-01-2006, 08:00 AM

I'm not familiar with your web design knowledge, but how much time do you spend beefing up your skills? Do you read web design and web development forums? Do you read books and apply the knowledge gained from them?

Naturally, everyone starts at "Hello, World" and works his/her way up.

As has been touched on here, web development (the actual HTML/CSS/PHP) is different from web design (the look, the feel, the impression). Game Design is a term that gets thrown around too easily by most people, and then one day you realize, "Oh, crap, I don't know how to actually design a game!" Now you realize how important it is as its own field as opposed to a synonym for game development. I'm not a web developer, but I imagine it is the same with web design.

Have you read Robin Williams' The Non-Designers Design Book? She has a couple of easy to read books on the topic of aesthetics, especially on the web. I took a technical writing course my last year in college, and I really wish I would have known a lot of the techniques when I was in high school. Presentation is important, even when you are supposed to be graded on content. On the web, content is king, but if it can't be presented well, no one would want to take the effort to check it out. Just having a better idea of when to use sans serif or serif fonts, bold or italics, huge letters or small, really makes it easy to create documents that are almost a joy to read.

Do you check out major websites and take notes on what makes them good, bad, or ugly? Redesign an existing website, even if you don't ever show the owner. It's got to be good practice. Another thing to try that I've seen is to create a website, but mess around with the CSS templates. The site it the same, but you can let someone click on it to see different layouts.

How much time have you dedicated to this craft? Do you spend at least 20 hours a week? The more you do it, the better you can get at it.

/me wishes he wasn't at his day job so he could apply his current motivational energy towards his own game development.

GBGames

02-01-2006, 08:05 AM

Oh, and for an example of what my own homemade web development created years ago, check out my QBasic website: http://qbasic.gbgames.com

Frames and ugliness. The only thing that I think people liked as far as the look was the yellow GBGames graphic at the top, and that was technically outsourced to a coworker of mine. I created the smiley, and I was trying to make it look crude, but I guess it looked accidental. I periodically got offers from others to redesign the website, and I would ask for help, but I was never motivated to completely redo it.

NothingLikeit

02-01-2006, 08:36 AM

I'm not familiar with your web design knowledge, but how much time do you spend beefing up your skills? Do you read web design and web development forums? Do you read books and apply the knowledge gained from them?

I can honestly say that I don't spend enough time on the craft of game or web design. Early on I learned how to do a bunch of computer releated things and reached a stage where I thought it was enough.

But after these early attempts at things I realize it's not enough. I'm going to try some new time management techniques to see if I can get more done with less time. (Or not waste the time I do have)

One thing I have learned is that you should probably not say anything at all until you're sure it will get a somewhat positive reception.

Escapee

02-01-2006, 09:14 AM

Check out funpcgame web development history

Great discount game site
My first design (http://www.funpcgame.com/indexback.html)

Bloody design
My second design (http://www.funpcgame.com/index5.html)

latest design
My latest design (still considered to be crappy by many experts here ) , and is still searching for breakthrough improvement via the use of CSS (http://www.funpcgame.com)

It always funny to look back at the old design and be able to share with others, perhaps I 'm going to have the same feeling again looking at the current design a year later .

I owe alot to the community here , without all of your harsh comment i would probably still think that my first design was the best in the world .

TimS

02-01-2006, 06:03 PM

My latest design (still considered to be crappy by many experts here ) , and is still searching for breakthrough improvement via the use of CSS

Much better though, still. MUCH.

One thing I have learned is that you should probably not say anything at all until you're sure it will get a somewhat positive reception.

No! Don't say that! That's not a good attitude to take at all! Maybe try to switch it to: "IF you care about what people think of you in various arenas, then present yourself only as you would like to be seen in those arenas." If, say, you don't care one bit about who thinks you can design websites (I for instance, don't do that type of work, so I'm not much worried about how my blog looks... my company website will be done by pros), then it doesn't matter how you present websites. If you don't care what people think of your painting, or writing, or programming, or whatever -- because you aren't going to pursue them in any serious or seriously public way, then these things don't matter. It's when you're looking for WORK as a web designer, writer, painter, ninja, whatever... That, in my opinion, is when you need to tread lightly and only flaunt your skills if they are on par with the industry pros.

But really... sometimes you will NEED to say things when you are SURE that you will not get a positive reception... that's just life. Say 'em anyway.

-Tim

maular

02-01-2006, 06:07 PM

As mentioned earlier, there is a big difference between a web developer, and a web designer (at least, when we are talking about people who work in a studio).

A designer is a creative and artistic person, who can come up with a visual concept and style, and should have a good idea of how this will translate onto a web medium (but this medium is quite secondary to their skills).

Looking at your sites, you are not a designer. I doubt you have ever studied design, nor have a natural feel for it. But don't worry about that, my design skills suck as much as yours, and I'm a successfully employed web developer.

A developer is a cold and logical person, whose love for art, design, fashion and kittens has long died, to be replaced with a perverted compulsion for technology, script and markup :) It totally depends on what kind of developer as to what you need to learn, but starting with HTML and CSS is fine (I'm personally into Actionscript/PHP). But to be a HTML/CSS developer you would need to understand a browsers Document Object Model, and how tags are actually interpreted, which are blocking and non-blocking (what's the difference between a div, a span and a p?), how stylesheets actually cascade, how the doctype affects rendering, all that jazz.

To get this knowledge, you need experience. You'll get a tiny amount at college/university, but you'll get an enormous amount more working in a studio. With a couple of years experience you will have a _much_ better idea of your skills, you'll have a great folio, and you'll have a good idea of how to get some work for yourself (and contacts to go with it).

So, stay at school, play with design and technology in your own time, but start looking for a part time / casual / intern job. Good luck!

oNyx

02-01-2006, 06:08 PM

[...]
One thing I have learned is that you should probably not say anything at all until you're sure it will get a somewhat positive reception.

Nah thats too extreme. How about "until you cant tell if there is still something wrong with it"?

Well, yea... one could argue that that means pretty much the same, but IMO thats the point were feedback starts to get useful.

Feedback (on a smaller scale) is also useful if you want to verify your progress. Like you replace some detail and ask others which version they like more. If its the new one, you must be doing something right.

Sirrus

02-02-2006, 07:54 AM

latest design
My latest design (still considered to be crappy by many experts here ) , and is still searching for breakthrough improvement via the use of CSS (http://www.funpcgame.com)

I think the only thing wrong with the latest site is the logo and top bar are way too big! ;)
The logo and slogan takes up half a window...

Otherwise, looking quite nice.

GBGames

02-02-2006, 09:36 AM

I can honestly say that I don't spend enough time on the craft of game or web design. Early on I learned how to do a bunch of computer releated things and reached a stage where I thought it was enough.

But after these early attempts at things I realize it's not enough. I'm going to try some new time management techniques to see if I can get more done with less time. (Or not waste the time I do have)

It's good that you made this realization because you can more quickly do something about it. A lot of people still think that education stops at a diploma, and years ago it was a fine assumption to make. These days, it isn't.

If you're going to try to be more organized and get more done in the time you have to do it in, I'd suggest reading David Allen's Getting Things Done. I did really well last year because of some of the things I learned, and I just read it a second time and realized I could do with some improvements. Also, when I first read it, there were parts I thought I understood and skipped past. This second time through, I now know that I didn't get it before. I had no frame of reference.

It's kind of like what I learned about game programming. I thought I understood it, but it wasn't until I started doing it that I learned how much I don't know. While coding a basic engine for my current project, I was stuck trying to figure out the best way to do something. Eventually I just decided to code it a specific way and go with it. If I did it wrong, I'd know soon enough. Once it was implemented, I had a better understanding of the problem domain and was able to make a better decision.

Basically, understand that you're constantly learning. You'll never be "finished" with your education, and "good enough" isn't something you can make a judgement call on until you gain some experience.

One thing I have learned is that you should probably not say anything at all until you're sure it will get a somewhat positive reception.

I don't agree with it. On the other hand, I think TimS was right in that you can't put yourself out there as web designer/developer if you aren't, so of course you can expect some backlash. You asked about getting more clients, and if you read between the lines, the answer was "Get better" and "Increase the quality of your work". It will take effort and patience, but once you gain the experience and knowledge required to do great work, you will also likely know how to market your skills. So please, make sure to offer your thoughts. As you go, you'll probably look back on your older comments and wonder what you were like back then. I know I do.

kevryan

02-02-2006, 10:11 AM

I can second the recommendation of Robin Williams' The Non-Designers Design Book. In fact I had pulled it down off my shelf and paged through it while reading these posts. It will help you see why certain things work and certain things don't. My own copy just disappeared from my office as my wife walked, paged through it, and borrowed it.

simonbowerbank

02-02-2006, 02:34 PM

I think a key skill you are lacking is the ability to look at your work in an objective, removed way. Things like the text on the Higgs Phonics page make no sense at all to be touching the left navigation bar, surely anyone without design experience can see this.

I would suggest some art classes if you are still in school and if you aren't perhaps that something worth looking into. Criticizing ones own work is a fundamental ability for anyone in an art related profession and from my experience is something art schools invest heavily in.

fog4711

02-02-2006, 04:48 PM

Criticism certainly stings. Yet it's very important for improveing. I guess the
trick is to stay cool enough to take in the relevant parts of the criticism.

I may mention a mail I recently got. It said (rough translation from Swedish):
"Your site sucks. I can't belive that you actually PAY for the domain and
then publish such crap. But maybe it can be fixed... (name and e-mail withheld) "

Well, that stung at first. Then I had a good laugh since that guy obviously
lacks taste. That criticism was IMO almost worthless ;)

I take critiscism well but it doesn't stop it from stinging at first. I do realize that everything that's been said is true. I'm going to change the site but for some reason I feel the need to have something there. I paid for the domain name and monthly hosting charges after all. It would be silly to have wasted space. Does any one have ideas on what to post there in the meantime?
"

Regarding the question about what to do with your site I may have an idea. If that's OK with you, I can send you a PM.

fog:)

P.S. It's already midnight here now. The idea may not survive daylight. Ideas are a bit like vampires in that way :eek:

soniCron

02-02-2006, 05:04 PM

Pardon the temporary derailment, but for some strange reason, I really like your site, fog. ;) Very retro...reminds me of the early days of the net...

simonbowerbank

02-02-2006, 05:17 PM

"Your site sucks. I can't belive that you actually PAY for the domain and
then publish such crap. But maybe it can be fixed... (name and e-mail withheld) "

That is not criticism that is an insult. Also your simulated eco system sounds interesting im going to go try it out.

fog4711

02-02-2006, 05:21 PM

Thanx soniCron. I try to keep it simple. The retro aspect was not intentional but now when you mention it ... :)

Very retro...

fog :)

fog4711

02-02-2006, 05:31 PM

Thanx :) I had a similar feeling about that mail:p

That is not criticism that is an insult. Also your simulated eco system sounds interesting im going to go try it out.

Enjoy the eco-system. I hope it behaves well on your PC.

fog:)

Escapee

02-02-2006, 07:36 PM

[QUOTE=Escapee]Your site sucks. I can't belive that you actually PAY for the domain and
then publish such crap. But maybe it can be fixed... (name and e-mail withheld) " [QUOTE]

I received similar email/PM a year ago

" Your site is the worst i have seen in the face of planet. My friend is a professional web designer , we can offer you a small ....... "

That's the worst way to sell a product/service

NothingLikeit

02-02-2006, 09:20 PM

I can't win for losing with you guys can I? :)

I say I like what I'm doing you say "it needs work"

I say I'll shut up, you say "don't do that"

Seriously though I do appreciate the advice.

Teq

02-03-2006, 01:19 AM

ok, what seems to be lacking from your sites:

- Consistancy across resolutions (try viewing the clients site in 1280x1024)
- Graphical style (sorry to say, but you seem to have only a grasp of bevels and gradients?)

I'm not the greatest web designer in the world, but then I have no intention of making a living from it any more, but when I was - Used to scope out sites that my clients rivals have, take notes on how the pages flow, then think about the clients products, logo, etc, and see how I can implement an interface which ties in with that.

For tutorials on using graphics packages - http://www.planetphotoshop.com/tutorials.html
http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/

Now back to the question: there are many web design "freelancing" sites that allow you to bid on a project, try googling for one of these and setting up some accounts, you would more likely be better off asking around friends/family, putting ads in the news agent window etc, offer free web designs until you think you are ready...

Remember - we all have to start somewhere, keep working at it!

GBGames

02-03-2006, 05:42 AM

For tutorials on using graphics packages - http://www.planetphotoshop.com/tutorials.html
http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/

For the record, the Gimp seems to have a need for a Missing Manual book. Those tutorials may be out of date, but you can easily find more at the Gimp Users Group: http://gug.sunsite.dk/?page=tutorials
And this search engine: http://www.pixel2life.com/tutorials/Gimp/All/

Artinum

02-03-2006, 01:46 PM

It has often been said that everyone is a critic.

But proper criticism is hard. I know this well - reviewing for Bytten would be dead easy if I could simply say "this game is excellent/rubbish!" but instead I look to give fair appraisal to all games. One or two I have initially thought "yuck" with but I always try to find something good about them, be that originality, some well-designed quality that isn't immediately obvious, maybe even just the evidence that a newbie developer has made obvious efforts despite their lack of experience.

If someone tells you "your website is as attractive as the decaying brains of a deep fried gibbon", that isn't criticism. If someone tells you "the colour scheme on your website is hurting my eyes", that's mostly a complaint - but there's something useful in there. You can take a fresh look at your colours.

Ideal criticism - you say what's good about the site as well as what isn't. Suggest what needs changing and how. Suggesting where to find more information on the subject is excellent (book references are good). And when taking criticism, accept that it may hurt and thank the nice critic for hitting you round the head with your own creation. Then go away, look at the thing again and decide how much (if any) of that advice you want to follow.

Am I being reasonable? Or am I just a big softie instead of a critic?

zKing

02-03-2006, 03:12 PM

I'd highly recommend you buy/borrow "The Non-Designer's Design Book" by Robin Williams. I think she also has a book specifically for Web design as well, but I'd start with the first one. It's a very fast read and you will _instantly_ see several flaws in your current site. Don't assume the book is simplistic or useless with its unassuming title.

Some critique of your site (offered in the spirit of being helpful):

- The contrast is too much, you have blinding near white next to super dark blue/black bars. This can be done, but given it's just big square blocks I find it uninteresting and just hard on the eyes.

- If two fonts are going to be different make them very different. This includes sizes. Make sure your fonts are exactly the same or obviously-from-many-feet-away different.

- Once your nav bar links are selected (internet explorer at work here) they become nearly invisible dark purple on dark blue.

- Your text layout is muddy, it doesn't provide strong, obvious structure.

- Frankly, the design is kinda... boring. It's mostly black text on white with a plain dark blue bar on the side.

- It lacks a recognizable "brand". If someone saw a glossy in this same style from five feet away... are they gonna say "Hey, that's NLG!" ?

- You don't use the green color in the NLG logo anywhere else in the site. That could add color, interest and help tie into the brand.

The Higgs site:

- When you click on "View Sample Lessons" (for example), the nav bar turns into little textured blocks of yellow. The lines seperating those blocks make the text hard to read.

- The colors are a bit saturated for my taste, i.e. bright blue and bright yellow. And they are very different, so when they are set side by side it creates a lot of contrast. This is done all over the place, so its pretty hard on the eyes. This can be ok in smaller doses.

- Big rectangular plain blocks of color... ok, but not very interesting.

- There's not a clear "focus" on the pages, there's so much contrast and different layout styles going on... the eye is pulled every which way.

- Again, not much of a brand, in fact, looking at the pic of the books at the bottom of the page, I'd have tried to build in the curved dark color sweep on the covers of their books into the web design. Even the splash in the upper left of the books could have been used. Maybe even the style they used for "Volume X" on the books. Fonts as well.