Do any of you make a decent living?

[d000hg]

I'm talking mainly at full-time indies here(, although if anyone makes a decent living from part-time indie development I want to know HOW).

And I don't mean "I can afford to live making games because I live with my parents" but "I can pay the rent/mortgage and afford the TV and not have to live in a 1-room appartment with the heating and lights turned off". Basically, do any of you guys make a comparable income to what you'd make in a 'real' 9-5 job that you could get, as a coder, artist, plasterer etc?

[svero]

Yes, many people do.

[Desktop Gaming]

I used to earn enough to pay my mortgage, bills and run a decent car.

When its your only income you do feel very insecure though. I never liked that.

[d000hg]

Yeah I reckon you'd actually want to earn MORE than what you'd get in a steady job so you couls squirrel it away and have a couple of months' bills covered in case you had to get a real job for some reason.

Although am I right in thinking that once a game starts selling, it normally carries on selling for a long period - unlike commercial games? If true this would mean that you shouldn't suddenly stop getting any income?

[lakibuk]

I think it's a common problem for indies that once the game is out and doesn't sell, it often carries on selling nothing for years. :)

[Fabio]

Yeah I reckon you'd actually want to earn MORE than what you'd get in a steady job so you couls squirrel it away and have a couple of months' bills covered in case you had to get a real job for some reason.A "real job"? I think that making games on your own is even more real than doing it (database programming, etc..) for an employer.

When you are employed (thus have a "real job") you can get fired for two reasons:
1) you're not capable enough.
2) your colleagues or boss is not capable enough.

when you are self-employed, you can get in trouble only for the first reason.

Which makes it more "real job" than being an employee, IMHO.

Also, remember that the security that being employed gives you is all fake:
nobody will keep you if you produce less than what you earn + what he wants to earn from your sweat.
At least if you are self-employed you can remove the second part of the equation..

[d000hg]

I quite obviously meant a 'real job' as a 'conventional job'. Besides which you can have a conventional job without having to work long hours or be particularly good - but success as an indie seems to demand committment and skill in large measures.

In a large company your job is not at risk (especially) from the company going under.

[papillon]

Ha! :)

ANY single source of income is at risk. Large companies still fold, get bought, or decide to lay off whole departments. Especially with the ghost of outsourcing haunting so many places.

Government and university jobs are supposed to be pretty secure - and in trade, pay less for a similar position than the more general business market would. Or so is the impression I have.

[Bmc]

Ha! :)

ANY single source of income is at risk. Large companies still fold, get bought, or decide to lay off whole departments. Especially with the ghost of outsourcing haunting so many places.

Government and university jobs are supposed to be pretty secure - and in trade, pay less for a similar position than the more general business market would. Or so is the impression I have.

well put, I myself don't believe "job security" exists.

[Nexic]

I would guess that my sales are more reliable than any job. It's amazing how little monthly sales vary if you exclude months just after a new release. Earning a decent salary early on is hard, but certainly possible. Two years on and I don't quite meet your critera (I live in a fairly rich part the UK).

Though I would not recommend quitting your day job, unless you don't have many outgoings (like me).

[cliffski]

unless your partner works. luckily, i'm in that situation, so the fear of homelessness if I don't sell enough copies is pretty low. And as for living in a rich part of the UK, you try and beat Guildford. four million pounds buys you a portaloo round here.
It's much easier to make a living from this if you live somewhere cheap in dollar terms. If I lived in eastern europe I'd be laughing all the way to the bank right now.

[Ricardo Vladimiro]

You have to try Portugal then. When comparing to UK, US, French and German standards we have a really low cost life style here. And loads of sun also. ;)

I'm just trying to attract game development investment here, really. :D

[berserker]

unless your partner works. luckily, i'm in that situation, so the fear of homelessness if I don't sell enough copies is pretty low. And as for living in a rich part of the UK, you try and beat Guildford. four million pounds buys you a portaloo round here.
It's much easier to make a living from this if you live somewhere cheap in dollar terms. If I lived in eastern europe I'd be laughing all the way to the bank right now.

That's right Cliff, this whole thread makes me laugh :D

[Raptisoft]

How's this for decent? My wife now allows me to code ANY TIME I WANT, including taking a laptop to HER FAMILY FUNCTIONS. That is arriving, baby!

[Tom Cain]

It's much easier to make a living from this if you live somewhere cheap in dollar terms.
This is an important point. The income from this type of business does not scale with local cost of living like standard employment does. I make a decent living on the Mississippi coast, but I imagine it would be a joke in Manhattan.

d000hg, I know why you are asking the question and I've asked it myself before many times. The answer you're looking for has many variables. Steve Pavlina's articles cover many of the varibles. Here are my general guidelines for the current market based on my own educated opinion. They are debatable (and may get debated in this thread):

1. You will not produce a runaway hit.
If you happen to produce one of these, you'll likely be set. But don't base your business on it. Big-hit developers often don't know why it was a hit. Produce the best that you can and then improve it.

2. Something has to be above average.
You will have a difficult time if your game, company, and marketing are all average. At least one thing needs to be really good. When people "polish" their games, they are moving them over and above the average. Success is easier when more things are above average. This can be learned with practice and built over time.

3. This business is work.
You will have to work to be successful. It is fun work with flexible hours, but it is work and you have to do it. There are lots of things that have to be designed, built, and improved. Work steadily on these to build success. There are perceptions out there that someone can produce a quick game and live for years off the sales. This only happens if one wins the "indie lottery" and accidentally breaks rule 1 above.

4. You won't make much money at first.
I'll even stick a number on this - other people may not agree. If you work hard full-time, you still won't see $20k in the first year. If you work hard but don't make some aspect of your business above average in the first year, you won't see $5k. But if you keep working on your business, income will go up.

[Grey Alien]

How's this for decent? My wife now allows me to code ANY TIME I WANT, including taking a laptop to HER FAMILY FUNCTIONS. That is arriving, baby!

Oh how I LONG for that day! My life's ambition will be fulfilled when I reach that pinnacle.

Anyway, I was going to add that I'm pretty sure it helps to get several games on the go at once as one may not being anywhere near enough income but several might be OK. When I can derive some kinda basic income from games, I'm going to move abroad (from the U.K) to cheaper acoomodation as house prices are STUPID here. I've heard Portugal is good ;-) My partner uses the Internet to write science articles and if all I do is write games, then there's no reason to be tied to a location. Realistically if you can both earn £500 each a month, you could live quite well in a cheap country, whereas in the U.K. mortgages can be £1000 a month alone! Thing is though, £500 a month is around 125-150 portal sales per month, which is quite a few to sustain on an ongoing basis, sure a new release might do that for 2 weeks, but then what? And if you have your own site, surely getting that many sales is pretty damn hard at first (although you only need 1/3 to 1/2 that number if you take 100% of the gross price)? I used to think 100 sales a month sounded like nothing, haha, but then I looked into it more ...

[Bmc]

How's this for decent? My wife now allows me to code ANY TIME I WANT, including taking a laptop to HER FAMILY FUNCTIONS. That is arriving, baby!

haha yeh when the gf stops thinking of it as a hobby that is when you are truly doing well ;)

[Sharpfish]

Personally the worst feeling for me in this whole indie-developement business is the uncertainty that you are not wasting years at a time on something that won't even recoup costs. That combined with feeling like others may see me as job-dodging rather than realising I am working more hours than I ever did when I worked in conventional employment.

Sometimes, in the middle of the night, things can get quite scary if you think about how you are going to explain to the partner/in-laws (who are letting you live for "free" with them temporarily) how you spent nearly a year on something they may see as trivial and which went on to make £10! ;)

Obviously I don't have the ongoing experience of knowing anything can/will sell so it's hard to believe it can at times, even though I sold games on the Amiga over ten years ago - that was merely pockey money. At my age (31) you start to question the whole feasability of being a provider for your (wife/gf) while taking years out from conventional employment just to get the whole thing kick-started.

Do you give up through worry and go and work in a factory or back in the retail games industry? or do you carry on in a protective, escapist bubble until you have the experience to judge what is and isn't achievable.

To the OP, these are all questions I have asked myself, and it looks like you also would love some ready made answers. I doubt they exist, successful guys on here can inspire you with their stories of making a living (or even doing very well) but at the end of the day, each case is unique and depends on many other factors. The only thing you can realistically do is say "you only live once, I am going to take 2 years out and test the waters... because it's better to try and fail than always wonder 'what if?'".

[Grey Alien]

I'm a contract programmer so I can work at home and not full hours so it's easy to spend time game programming, but I do have kids and they stop me doing much more. If you could negotiate a 3-4 day week with an employer (only possible if you are valuable I guess) then you could still earn enough to keep you going whilst doing games in the rest of the time. Just an idea.

[arcadetown]

Guys make anywhere from 2 paper clips and a lint ball to pretty darn good money. The guys that go the extra mile and really work at it are more consistenty the ones that do well.

[Chris Evans]

I think Tom Cain pretty much nailed it. I'd just like to add to his 2nd and 4th points.

2. Something has to be above average.

This is very important and I also think it helps to have some kind of hook to your company or games, which customers/players can latch onto. Whether it's a particular graphic style or catering to a particular niche, I think it really helps to specialize in at least something. Creating generic games for a general audience is a fast-lane to nowhere as an Indie.

Though I want to also add that you should try to remain flexible. You never know what may click with your audience. For example, I have PC and Mac downloadables available on my site, but it was my web games and web demos that got the most praise/attention from players. While 3D in downloadables is very common, many of them told me they hadn't seen 3D graphics in a browser like that before. That told me, "Hmm, maybe I should greater utilize my talent for web 3D graphics into my business more". So keep your eyes open for your unique selling points and listen to your players.

4. You won't make much money at first.

This is also true. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who over-estimated how much they would sell in the first few months. I thought 150 sales a month would be a cake-walk! Boy was I wrong. :) Once I got over the initial shock of not meeting my initial sales expectations, I revised my business plan somewhat.

Instead of trying to earn enough money to make a living within 4-6 months, I established a 2-3 year plan for profitability. This is still being generous if you think about it since most businesses (even the big boys) bleed money for the first several years (or more) before seeing any real profits.

You can obviously make money being an Indie full-time, but I think a big problem is that a lot of new guys are expecting to be totally profitable with their first game. This isn't necessarily a bad goal, but as Tom said it's like winning the proverbial Indie lottery. You should really have some long-term plans and goals in place just in case you don't hit the portal's top ten with your first game.

This is why I've stepped back and started concentrating on building up my website's traffic this year. It won't have a lot of immediate returns, but I'm hoping within a year or two, I'll have a good flow of visitors to pitch games to and other things.

If you have a 2-3 year plan in addition to a 4-6 month plan, you'll have pretty good odds of eventually reaching profitability if you work really hard at it. But just churning out games won't do it. IMO, you have to be cohesively building up to something. Otherwise you're just throwing darts.

[Jack Norton]

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who over-estimated how much they would sell in the first few months. I thought 150 sales a month would be a cake-walk! Boy was I wrong. :) Once I got over the initial shock of not meeting my initial sales expectations, I revised my business plan somewhat.

Lol this is the story of 90% of people around here who started to be indie after reading Pavlina's articles :D

[Sharpfish]

Personally I have an upper estimate of somewhere around 60 a month (being "good") and a low (minimum) estimate of around 10 a month (being low but at least being a start) anything below that would be a dissapointment sure, but it takes time.

I haven't set targets too high before I'm even on the market - that will come with experience and knowledge. I don't suppose you can just pull a number out of your £$$ and say that is what I will reach. (sure if you read Steve P's old articles enough you will be telling yourself you are going to make $2000 a month from the get-go and that you need to be positive - which you do - but also realistic to save de-moralising disapointment that could prevent you even bothering with future game development). I found his stuff inspiring way back in time, but since starting out on the process of development myself have adjusted all my expectations downwards by some margin using the real situations around me and the devs who are around today earning a living as a target to aim for. And I don't mean the big earners either.

I suppose the reason for that is, I have always said I am not primarily in it for the money (just as well) but for creative freedom and because I have always been intersted in doing it. If anything it means I will possibly take a big dip in my usual income just so I can do something I like instead of working for "the man" - I'm fine with that, in general I am not a money led person.

[Polycount Productions]

I'm talking mainly at full-time indies here(, although if anyone makes a decent living from part-time indie development I want to know HOW).

And I don't mean "I can afford to live making games because I live with my parents" but "I can pay the rent/mortgage and afford the TV and not have to live in a 1-room appartment with the heating and lights turned off". Basically, do any of you guys make a comparable income to what you'd make in a 'real' 9-5 job that you could get, as a coder, artist, plasterer etc?
I don't make a living as a indie game developer but Tim Fisher at www.indiepath.com (friend and business partner) does make money enough to support his living. Although the money is not the same he did when selling stuff at IBM...

Kai-Peter Backman (www.mistaril.com) is making a living (paying rent etc.) by selling his game. He has done that for several years now (with one game) and I really appreciate the work he has done.

I presume both of these professionals share this trait (among others): work hard enough to get the money. They are working in different business buth have clear vision of what they are doing and how the money will be earned. Clear goals I presume and drive to make it happen.

[Grey Alien]

I'm pretty sure Tim Fisher can tell you this himself, but I know he works ALL the time on various projects, never stops thinking/working. That's how some people suceed in business for sure.

I plan my code/design in the bath or just before I fall asleep or when driving or just standing in a queue somewhere.

[dislekcia]

I plan my code/design in the bath or just before I fall asleep or when driving or just standing in a queue somewhere.

I'd think that that was standard on this forum. If you can get your projects out of your head then you arguably don't care enough about them...

As far as making a living from this goes, I've taken a different route to the norm. Started out just making things for fun, got a community going on a magazine site here in SA and then grew from there. Now I don't have any games selling (yet, and my first product is going to be an educational visualisation package, not a game) but I make a decent living writing freelance articles for magazines to support the community I grew.

And because the writing isn't too time consuming, I'm getting closer and closer to release :)

-D

[arcadetown]

I'm pretty sure Tim Fisher can tell you this himself, but I know he works ALL the time on various projects, never stops thinking/working. That's how some people suceed in business for sure.
Yes, that's how most succeed! I'm extremely busy myself yet sometimes I'll take time to give minor tips. About 1/4 of the guys use those tips, others simply call things done as they've already given up. Almost invariably those 1/4 are or become the succesful ones.

[Tom Gilleland]

Are Tim Fisher and Brian Fisher are the same person??? I'm assuming corporate Tim and indie Brian. I like reading Brian Fisher's posts as they are thoughtful.

Tom

[Grey Alien]

haha, they are not the same person, for sure.

[Polycount Productions]

Are Tim Fisher and Brian Fisher are the same person??? I'm assuming corporate Tim and indie Brian. I like reading Brian Fisher's posts as they are thoughtful.

Tom
Tim must be Brian's brother. How else would they have same surname? ;)
(sorry for this off topic... seriously: Tim Fisher is the owner of Indiepath - Brian Fisher is at ArcadeTown.)

I'm sure Tim will soon appear here and ruin this thread...:rolleyes:

[Indiepath.T]

I'm Tim, that's Brian. And no, I don't think we are related - cool surname though :D

Yes you can make a living, it's hard work and you've got to stick at it. Try and keep an open mind though, for me it's more about being a business man than being a developer.