Questions for people who have succeded in building an indie business

[endasil]

Hello! I have a couple of questions for you people who have succeded with starting up a indie business and now making a profit out of it. Hope you can offer a couple of minutes of your time in helping a curious one. :)

How many people were you when you started the company?

How long have you been selling games?

On average, how much time do you spend developing each game?

What do you consider important to think about when starting up a game development company?

What methods have you used to make people aware of your site and games?

How many games did you sell per week during the first three months of your business?

How many games do you sell per week now?

What is the download / buy ratio? In other words how many of those who download your demo actually buys them?


Anything else you would like to add?

[Robert Cummings]

I would like to point out that you are attempting to create a yardstick from sand. You can't create averages or comparisons as there is no one single indie business model.

My personal way of doing this is creating a set of realistic goals which I intend to earn a living from. If your goal is determining if you can make a living from this then my answer is keep the day job and see how it goes. It will either take over or it won't.

[soniCron]

I thought the first response to this would be something along those lines.

I also considered that it's impossible to make a set of realistic goals when you have no idea what is realistic to begin with. It's balderdash to build any plans off wild guessing and fantasizing. In short, and in response to those that think that sales data doesn't matter: Why does it matter in every other industry? Your mileage may vary, but at least you've got an idea what progress other players in the same market have made.

To insinuate that sales data is worthless is a silly fantasy.

EDIT: This wasn't directed at you, Robert. I appologize if it came across that way. :)

[Tom Cain]

I've had these same questions myself.

How long have you been selling games?
8 years.

On average, how much time do you spend developing each game?
1 year for version 1.0, plus ongoing upgrades.

What do you consider important to think about when starting up a game development company?
Cash flow. Profits can come with time, cash flow keeps you alive. This is true of any company that looks long term.

What methods have you used to make people aware of your site and games?
Build your product after you've developed a marketing strategy and adapt said product accordingly. If you don't know marketing strategy at all, books by Jack Trout, Al Ries, and Seth Godin are easy to digest and give a good overview. It is getting harder to build cash flow with the standard laundry list of tactics.

How many games did you sell per week during the first three months of your business?
Not many.

How many games do you sell per week now?
A lot more.

What is the download / buy ratio? In other words how many of those who download your demo actually buys them?
1-2%

[ggambett]

How many people were you when you started the company?
Three.

How long have you been selling games?
2 and a half years.

On average, how much time do you spend developing each game?
An actual average gives 5 months. We've had 1-month and 10-month projects though.

What do you consider important to think about when starting up a game development company?
Be top talent and love games. Work with top talent who love games. Make an all-out attempt - don't compromise for mediocrity.

What methods have you used to make people aware of your site and games?
Listing in every download site out there, not listening to portal haters. It's business.

How many games did you sell per week during the first three months of your business?
That's confidential.

How many games do you sell per week now?
That's confidential.

What is the download / buy ratio? In other words how many of those who download your demo actually buys them?
Varies on the game, around 1%.

Anything else you would like to add?
Advice from people with no experience and no completed games should be ignored or taken with a HUGE grain of salt.

[svero]

How many people were you when you started the company?
Two

How long have you been selling games?
6-7 yrs

On average, how much time do you spend developing each game?
6 months - 1 year

What do you consider important to think about when starting up a game development company?
Know ahead of time how you will market and sell the games. Don't create something you haven't got the money or ability to market.

What methods have you used to make people aware of your site and games?
Demos, Freeware, webgames, advertising, strategic partnerships, affiliation

How many games did you sell per week during the first three months of your business?
How many games do you sell per week now?
My first game sold around 30-40 copies a month when I first released it. That's not really very relevant though since the market was completely different back then. As for now.. varies quite a bit month to month but as with the others im not posting actual figures in public for a various reasons.

What is the download / buy ratio? In other words how many of those who download your demo actually buys them?
Varies quite a bit... but I've seen monthly averages anywhere from .1% to 10%

- S

[Robert Cummings]

Sounds like I was right on the mark then.

[d000hg]

I'm interested why people don't like to share their sales figures. Is this because you're not paying any tax?!

While it may not be useful to know the answers to these questions, it is certainly VERY interesting.

[Ricardo Vladimiro]

They may have NDAs with the portals for instance, so saying there numbers for site selling would not be of value.

Maybe they are not interested in saying it anyway. They don't have too.

[smiles]

I'm interested why people don't like to share their sales figures. Is this because you're not paying any tax?!

My mom always said not to talk about money.... :-)

I would think it would either go one of two ways:

1. The money is less than you think, and it would be embarrassing
2. The money equal or more than you think, and the person may seem like they are bragging, and also they would have to always live up to those numbers...

[Savant]

Anything else you would like to add?
Advice from people with no experience and no completed games should be ignored or taken with a HUGE grain of salt.
This is the best advice. Ever. :)

[Sirrus]

Anything else you would like to add?
Advice from people with no experience and no completed games should be ignored or taken with a HUGE grain of salt.


This is the best advice. Ever. :)

Technically speaking, shouldn't it be a tiny grain of salt? Otherwise, its almost like saying 'jumbo shrimp' :)

[Ricardo Vladimiro]

Just an honest question: finished games as in finishing a game, or finished games as in finished and published?

[Savant]

Finishing a game gives you credibility to comment on game development. Releasing/selling it gives you credibility to talk about marketing/advertising.

[Ricardo Vladimiro]

Ok. Just asked because it sounded a bit elistist, maybe because I haven't published a game. Thank you for your answer.

[Savant]

It's a little elitest, but it's also realistic. There are a lot of people willing to give you lots of advice out there - the trouble is, only a small fraction are actually speaking from a position of real world experience. It's important to be able to quickly discern who is worth listening to and who isn't.

[Ricardo Vladimiro]

Sure Savant I understand that. Felt a bit touchy with the way it was being said. It's not secret that I haven't published a game, but I've been working hard to get something done and have been investing and taking good advice from experienced people... most of the advices are similar to almost everything that is discussed here. Although involved in game dev for a long time, I'm only taking it seriously and as a personal project for the past six months give or take...

So when I say something I'm trying to help and I felt my opinion had no value because I had no published games.

But no worries... I see what you mean and I agree to some point, but I guess it's easier to see who is honestly trying to help and confront several points of view, then to say someone's opinion is not valid given a certain condition.

[d000hg]

I'm not as interested in the $$$ being earned as the number of sales. I'd be just as happy to know the number of demo downloads you get per month - to know what kind of traffic and notoriety you've managed to develop.

[Pogacha]

An advice from someone that is finishing his first game and never publish a game : it's 3 or 4 times harder than you thought at the beggining, maybe someone who have published a game could share that info with more acuracy. Salt for me please ...

[ggambett]

Ricardo, I think this quote explains my position :

An advice from someone that is finishing his first game and never publish a game : it's 3 or 4 times harder than you thought at the beggining, maybe someone who have published a game could share that info with more acuracy. Salt for me please ...
I meant something more like "finished and published". It's easy to declare a game "done" - just make an ugly Tetris or Pacman clone and you have "made a game". I've been doing that since I was 10 years old, but that's not what I'm talking about. I meant "finish a game who other people find sellable". I agree with Pogacha here, it's 3 or 4 times harder than you think, and it's a very valuable learning experience.

It's amazing how much can a game be improved after you consider it done - our current game was "finished" in mid-november, I think, but the publisher that picked it up suggested many improvements - they were right, the game is a lot better today than it was 2,5 months ago - and will release it in february.

So... I don't think there's a substitute to the experience of making a game with "good enough to be sold" quality.

[Ricardo Vladimiro]

ggambet,

Thank you for your answer, but I'm cool, really, I am. :) No worries.

[ggambett]

To further clarify my position : my comment "Advice from people with no experience and no completed games should be ignored or taken with a HUGE grain of salt" referred specifically to the two guys who always have an answer to everything, whether they know what they're talking about or not, even in a thread whose title explicitly states the question is NOT for them.

[soniCron]

But organizing a business plan is something I have experience with at this point, and was the purpose of my post. How am I not qualified to speak about such matters?

[steve bisson]

sonicron ......

"Questions for people who have succeded in building an indie business". I guess it implies many years of contant success in the game industry.

your website is not even online.

[soniCron]

How does that invalidate the point of my post, that industry sales data is important to build a remotely realistic business plan? It is an area I do have experience with, and was in response to all past and future posts about the uselessness of sharing that data.

Please, only respond if you're American.

[steve bisson]

Please, only respond if you're American.

i cant believe someone could write that. Why do i always have the impression you make efforts to have every thread revolve around you.

[soniCron]

i cant believe someone could write that. You see the idiocy in asserting irrelevant labels?

EDIT: And among all this hooplah about my qualifications for discussing business plans, has anyone bothered to offer a valid counterpoint to my original post? No. All we've heard are prejudicial and derogatory comments against contributors of this board that aren't published...even when it's totally irrelevant.

[Savant]

You see the idiocy in asserting irrelevant labels?
I see lots of idiocy here, in many different areas.

[steve bisson]

You see the idiocy in asserting irrelevant labels?

your are comparing apples and oranges and further extending a debate about you and nothing about the original topic AGAIN.

[soniCron]

There has been nothing about the original topic to discuss! Nobody's said anything against it! Please! Tell me why what I said 29 posts back is wrong! But just don't tell me it's wrong because I'm not published, because that's simply prejudice!

[steve bisson]

I was not reacting to your initial post but at the way you like to highjack threads and turn it into a mello drama in wich you like to be the center of attention as seen here


But organizing a business plan is something I have experience with at this point, and was the purpose of my post. How am I not qualified to speak about such matters?

[Game Producer]

Hello! I have a couple of questions for you people who have succeded with starting up a indie business and now making a profit out of it. Hope you can offer a couple of minutes of your time in helping a curious one. :)

How many people were you when you started the company?

How long have you been selling games?

On average, how much time do you spend developing each game?

What do you consider important to think about when starting up a game development company?

What methods have you used to make people aware of your site and games?

How many games did you sell per week during the first three months of your business?

How many games do you sell per week now?

What is the download / buy ratio? In other words how many of those who download your demo actually buys them?


Anything else you would like to add?

Back to the original topic...

1) Little hint: do a search in these forums, you'll find some sales info.
2) I'm starting a "sales stats" place in my blog. I'm going to gather sales data from various sources... I put stuff online as soon as I get it (I already have statistics from 20 (or was it 50 ;)) games... you'll see them this month if you visit there. (see - I hope)

Oh, and I think these were very good questions. And yes, I think this thread needs some cool watering ;)

[soniCron]

Ok. I'll make my point and leave it alone, so there's no need to lock the thread:

A visitor asks advice from successful developers. One of those questions involves sales data. This is a question that has been asked a million times in the past. The usual response? "It doesn't matter." Now, when the first response to his initial query was, "It doesn't matter," (which I suspected would be), I retorted with a reasonable -- and common -- situation in which it would be highly valuable.

Now, the title of this thread specifically requests responses from successful developers. However, my response was one in favor of the original poster's question -- that is, I was defending it. In other words, someone immediately stated that sales figures were irrelevant, and I refuted that. I was attributing validity to the original poster's question.

Now, instead of citing a specific reason why my scenario was wrong, we met with the usual response, "Don't listen to people who haven't released a game." This attempt to refute my assertion that sales data was important was no more than prejudicial and derogatory.

The idea was that, since I haven't released a game, I haven't the capacity to speak about any of the elements in creating a viable independent game business, even if one of those elements was something that I am previously familiar.

Does completing savegame code qualify me to talk about business plans? No. How about high-score code? No. Profiles? No. Marketting? No. Customer service? No. Dealing with portals? No.

In fact, not one element beyond making a business plan qualifies me to discuss making business plans. No amount of polish, coding, sales, or configuring a dedicated web server has anything to do with discussing and formulating a business plan.

So how does completing a game accrue any relevancy in discussing business plans? The answer: It doesn't.

And there's a word for this: Prejudice. That is, the assertion that my capacity for understanding and objectively evaluating the subject is dependent on an irrelevant condition. (White, male, published games, etc.) The fact that I'm a man has no bearing on my qualifications to discuss those matters. Nor does my being an American. Nor my successfully completing, releasing, and supporting a finished game.

To assert that they do is misguided and prejudicial, not to mention hurtful. And this is something we see far too often on these forums. If I were to release my game next week, does that instantly validate my opinions?

So, please, either refute my original post, or PM me. Don't help me pollute this thread any further! ;)

[Savant]

So how does completing a game accrue any relevancy in discussing business plans? The answer: It doesn't.
You're right. But you know what WOULD qualify you to talk about business plans? Running a successful business.

[soniCron]

Wouldn't, also, having difficulty formulating a realistic business plan due to the dearth of sales data qualify me to assert that such data is important?

[Grey Alien]

2) I'm starting a "sales stats" place in my blog. I'm going to gather sales data from various sources... I put stuff online as soon as I get it (I already have statistics from 20 (or was it 50 ;)) games... you'll see them this month if you visit there. (see - I hope)
I am interested in seeing these too, I started to compile my own set of figures from sources on the web a year ago but the task was massive and time consuming, so i just made games instead!

[paulhuxt]

How many people were you when you started the company?

2 in 2000, 6 now.

How long have you been selling games?
from 2005.
But selling games is not our #1 activity (unfortunately).

We still depend mostly on "work for hire" projects in the field of game programming.

On average, how much time do you spend developing each game?
between 3 weeks for a free online game to 6 months for a retail game.

What do you consider important to think about when starting up a game development company?

having a goal or strategy that differentiate you from other game development companies. This is related to your personnality or your strengths/weaknesses, so it can't be "teached".

What methods have you used to make people aware of your site and games?
Nothing special.
Other websites apparently appreciate our games and link to us.

How many games did you sell per week during the first three months of your business?
about 200

How many games do you sell per week now?
about 10

What is the download / buy ratio? In other words how many of those who download your demo actually buys them?
less than 1%

Anything else you would like to add?
no , thanks ;-)

[Game Producer]

I am interested in seeing these too, I started to compile my own set of figures from sources on the web a year ago but the task was massive and time consuming, so i just made games instead!
Heh.

In fact, the first numbers come public tomorrow at 8 am (gmt+2).

[Nexic]

How many people were you when you started the company?
Just me.

How long have you been selling games?
2 years.

On average, how much time do you spend developing each game?
3-6 months.

What do you consider important to think about when starting up a game development company?
The most important thing in my opininon is making a good game, one that is highly polished, and one that will appeal to the majority of casual games. I got this wrong early on.

What methods have you used to make people aware of your site and games?
Banner ads, google ad words, forum chat, newsletters, press releases, SEO. SEO and press releases work best.

How many games did you sell per week during the first three months of your business?
My first game yieled such a low weekly figure that I might as well just say zero. By my second game was more like 1.

How many games do you sell per week now?
About 10 if you mean direct sales. I can't say how many indirect (portal) sales, but it's a fair bit more than this number.

What is the download / buy ratio? In other words how many of those who download your demo actually buys them?
From my own site, about 0.5%.


Anything else you would like to add?
You could easily do a lot worse than me, or easily do a lot better. You can't expect anything.

[cliffski]

How many people were you when you started the company?
Just me.

How long have you been selling games?
8 years

On average, how much time do you spend developing each game?
between 6 months to a year

What do you consider important to think about when starting up a game development company?
Learn how to code BIG projects. And learn how to do coder art, at least at the start, learn a bit of everything so you dont need anyone else.

What methods have you used to make people aware of your site and games?
Everything, advertising, emailing people, magazine submissions, download sites, forum postings.

How many games did you sell per week during the first three months of your business?
maybe 1 a week at most. possibly much less.

How many games do you sell per week now?
Lots more. Its a disaster if it's not at least 1 day, often many more.

What is the download / buy ratio? In other words how many of those who download your demo actually buys them?
Varies massivly per game, some its 0.001%, some its more like 2-3%

Anything else you would like to add?
Everyone get back to work immediately.

[berserker]

But organizing a business plan is something I have experience with at this point, and was the purpose of my post. How am I not qualified to speak about such matters?

Business plan definitely can be useful in toilet when you are run out of paper :D
Consider this opinion as it comes from a person that graduated university of economics and has Masters degree in information management ;)

[lakibuk]

@berserker: Word!
I always wondered what indies need a business plan for. It's used by real companies to get bank loans,right? Plus it's completely unpredictable how much you will sell, so a plan like this is futile.

[Pogacha]

Business plan definitely can be useful in toilet when you are run out of paper :D
Consider this opinion as it comes from a person that graduated university of economics and has Masters degree in information management ;)

What a "business plan" involves?
I have no grad ... and I don't care in theory, please I only like to know, what a "business plan" involves in this kind of business.
So you must go for instint or what you mean?.
I'm confussed. I have a "business plan", but maybe the term reffers to something more than a list of objetives and ways to do it.

Thanks in advance.

[Ricardo Vladimiro]

Slightly off-topic...

Pogacha,

A list of objectives and a way to do it sounds more like a project plan. Use some Gant charts, resource tracking, cost assessement and you'll have project management.

A business plan is usually a huge document. It may have several audiences but it is usually done to get investment, be it banks, private investors, business angels, et cetera. Even you can be your own audience and use a business plan to understand where you are, where you want to be, who you'll have to face and what you have to do.

I've wrote a couple of business plans and done a load of project management. In the indie context I can see project management being useful, to me it is A LOT. A business plan seems rather useless unless you want or need to know your own focus. But usually a mission statement is enough.

Hope this helps and good luck.

[berserker]

What a "business plan" involves?
I have no grad ... and I don't care in theory, please I only like to know, what a "business plan" involves in this kind of business.
So you must go for instint or what you mean?.
I'm confussed. I have a "business plan", but maybe the term reffers to something more than a list of objetives and ways to do it.

Thanks in advance.

Usually talking about business plan people mean detailed document that involves vision of business, strategic and tactical goals, marketing analysis, competition analysis and lot of other stuff. What I was trying to say that it is not as useful as some people might think. Of course viable business plan is crucial if you expect to get funding but writing one is very difficult job and people without appropriate knowledge and experience fail at this. Of course you can write a document and call it a business plan, but as I said before toilet paper is more useful :)

There are two approaches to business: intuitive and complex (not sure if I used appropriate words, but anyway...) and to my opinion for small developers that are just starting out first approach usually is the case. That's where business plan will hurt. See, being small means flexible and mobile. That means small developer can risk more easily, can try different things that would not be possible otherwise. And now imagine we have some business plan we need to follow. It will add nothing but we've already lost our biggest advantage - flexibility. I don't even mention the case when your business is wrong from the start since you might have no experience in wrighting ones (you probably don't) and you blindly following your wrong plan :)

Ofcourse you can have some kind of plan, but keep it short, formulated, and feel free to change it as you progress.

[Pogacha]

Ok, thanks.

[Anthony Flack]

Plans are great for mopping up your tears. :)

[Grey Alien]

Anthony: lol. maybe you write a song about it :-)

[soniCron]

I'll put it another way:

How do any of you know you can make any money at all? Someone, somewhere, had to let the cat out of the bag and mention, "Hey, I made a buck with downloadable games." When you're entering a new market, it's enormously helpful to know how big that market already is. Without knowing that, you're flying blind into a storm. No business plan will save your ass in the end, but at least you'll know how big that storm cloud is. (You might just avoid it entirely if it's too small, for example.)

If there's some debate about the value of the sales figures, then come out and say it -- don't dance around it with pedantic definitons of "business plan." But I'll remind you that I'm not alone in this. One very successful James C. Smith thinks they're valuable enough to keep track of in a database and share that data with the world via a dedicated website.

[carl]

@berserker: Word!
I always wondered what indies need a business plan for. It's used by real companies to get bank loans,right? Plus it's completely unpredictable how much you will sell, so a plan like this is futile.

IMHO, the real value is not in the plan, but in the planning.

I'm going under the assumption that you want to make a living writing and selling games. That means that you will have to make money to cover your expenses. How long will it take for the games you develop to cover your expenses? What will your business do before it reaches that mark? Will it live off it's current warchest (your bank account) until the game is released? Will it do contract work for other companies? Will it require more cash infusions from outside investors (ie. you get another job to fund your game development)?

You don't need to spend a week (or easily much more) formatting word documents, excel spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations, but answering these questions early is important. Once you tally all the expenses and estimate the variables, you'll have a general idea of what it will cost to "make it". Are you willing to pay the price?

[Teq]

Some nice responses, thanks guys, an interesting read (except the off topic stuff)

Cliffski: Must be hard working alone, I know I wouldn't be able to motivate myself, its only because I have 2 others kicking my arse that I'm now making progress :P

I know this isn't my thread, and I don't mean to hi-jack it, but could you guys give a little more detail as to what your team members do?

[MrPhil]

I think as an Indie you need a business plan, but not at complex one with pages and pages of text etc. I love this book, The One Page Business Plan (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=as2&path=ASIN/1891315099&tag=mrphilgame-20&camp=1789&creative=9325"><img border="0" src="1891315099.01._AA_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg), because it is a great guide to creating a simple but powerful one page business plan.

I also suggest you also do a SWOT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_Analysis ) analysis once a month. I personally combine my SWOT and one page business plan. Updating my plan once a month helps me keep on track and rein myself in when I start wondering off the path. It also helps remind me of my weaknesses and how I should deal with them. I've wasted a lot of time in the past because I didn't use these two tools.

[Sillysoft]

How many people were you when you started the company?
Me doing all the programming and a friend who did some art and sound work. So there were 2 of us, but he didn't stick around. Now I have found some other contractors for some things.

How long have you been selling games?
3 years and a bit.

On average, how much time do you spend developing each game?
My game took about 6-8 months working part time to get the first version released. Since then it has been in continued development with repeated update releases for 2 years+. Currently working on a new smaller game that will end up taking about 6 months.

What do you consider important to think about when starting up a game development company?
Creating an awesome game. Getting it released. Everything else about the business aspects you can learn as you go. You will survive or fail based on your game(s).

What methods have you used to make people aware of your site and games?
Press releases, review requests, google adwords, SEO. Long term SEO has been the most effective by far (the others all give it a boost though, so they are a part of SEO too).

How many games did you sell per week during the first three months of your business?
Not very many.

How many games do you sell per week now?
Lots.

What is the download / buy ratio? In other words how many of those who download your demo actually buys them?
Between 1-3%, but this stat can vary a ton based on how exactly it gets calculated.

Anything else you would like to add?
Don't be afraid to continue to update you game after you have "finished" it. If you have a good game and you also have ideas for how to improve it more then go for it. It's much easier to build some new features into your existing game then to start and finish a new game from scratch. If you do this for a long time then eventually you can build up a powerhouse game. Faster release cycles can also help keep your game in the press continually. This is a different path then many of the people on this forum take, but it has worked well for me.

Secondly, if you can support Macintosh users without too much trouble then do it for sure. They are 50% of sales here and used to be even more.

Also, thread hijackers suck.

[Sean Doherty]

Please, only respond if you're American.

Why do you say these kind of thing?

[steve bisson]

Why do you say these kind of thing?

Because he thought saying " only respond if you are an american "
was the equal of "only respond if you are an expert with success " .

He thought asking for advices from well established professionals only was some sort of discrimination or whatever.

[Fabio]

He thought asking for advices from well established professionals only was some sort of discrimination or whatever.
Why, maybe "only Americans can reply" isn't even more discriminative?

This is an international board, and the question ain't even about some specific tax or law that exists only in the USA (and, by the way, USA != America).

[Sharpfish]

Why, maybe "only Americans can reply" isn't even more discriminative?

This is an international board, and the question ain't even about some specific tax or law that exists only in the USA (and, by the way, USA != America).

Sonicron was trying to make a point about what he saw as discrimination, he wasn't actually being racist, something the non-native english speakers may have trouble picking up on. It was not intended to mean what it looks like when quoted out of context.

Also understand I am NOT posting anything in this thread on the issue itself as I don't want to get involved in the has released/hasn't released debate (being a dev who has not built a business yet) but wanted to correct that misunderstanding before things got "hot" around here, that's all. :)

[Gilzu]

I think everything that anyone wanted to say on the (original) subject had been said. thing is, that it ended 5 posts ago.

I don't mind a discussion about who's advice you should take more seriously, if a developer that hadn't yet published a game can have a helpful opinion - I have a few words to say about that myself (as someone who may have finished a game, but failed publishing it).

BUT

The title says "Questions for people whe have succeded in building an indie business" and not being flamebait or a source for future arguments. Not to mention the fact that there are more than 50% OT posts in this thread.

Point is, that i cant allow this thread and future threads to deter to the same OT discussion. If you want to discuss somthing - I even encourage it. But not at the price of ending/driving-OT other discussions.