Zuma Vs. Puzz Loop

[simonh]

A recent article on Insert Credit (http://www.insertcredit.com/features/hitofude/), sheds some new light on the Puzz Loop/Zuma issue.

OZA = Mitchell bossman Roy Ozaki, developers of Puzz Loop

CHZ: I remember that in 2004 you intended to file a lawsuit against Popcap for IP infringement with their game Zuma, a clone of Puzz Loop which can be played on PC and Xbox 360 (via the "Live Arcade" service). I haven't heard anything about this story since then. Was any solution or arrangement reached?

Puzzloop versus Zuma

OZA: My lawyers in Japan are supposed to be on this. Progress is slow because if we do court battle in US, we would be at a disadvantage. You know the Americans and their mentality. We will be up against American jurors. You know how biased they are towards Oriental companies. Popcap games' lawyer replied my mail and the one from my lawywers' office. In essence, they don't give a shit. I think they knew what they were doing from the start and they are bad businessmen. You know that to think of a game and to actually make it takes a lot of energy and money. Ripping off someonelse's idea is bad; they don't belong in the game business. In a few months, you will see what I am doing. I am not a lawyer so we will do battle in a different court. Did you know that Popcap also has a ripoff of Puzzle Bubble?

Legal proceedings on-going then. The battle in a different court is a reference to a DS version of Puzzloop that is coming soon.

I wonder if the new Puzzloop will borrow elements of Zuma? That would make it interesting ;)

Anyway, I'm sure this debate will go on and on...

[Bmc]

you know, they would of never even though of releasing a downloading version of puzzloop if zuma wasn't a smash, they're just pissed because they couldn't cash in on it

Zuma changed enough anyways I think, besides it's bascially centipeded with a color matching mechanic

[electronicStar]

Ripping off someonelse's idea is bad; they don't belong in the game business.

Muhahahaha is that supposed to be a joke?:rolleyes:

Anyway I'm taking their side (although I'm not sure it's worth a lawsuit).

[Dominique Biesmans]

BTW, there is a downloadable version of puzzloop. It's been on realarcade for quite a while now.

http://www.realarcade.com/game?gameid=puzzloop&src=gmpg&tps=guide-eu_

Check it out, IMO it's not really up to the challenge of competing with Zuma.

[Phil Steinmeyer]

Hmm - tried RealArcade's PuzzLoop. Assuming that this is the same as the original arcade PuzzLoop, then I think PopCap *Should* be in the clear (though I certainly don't know Japanese law.

While the core mechanic is the same, virtually everything else is different - theme, power-ups, levels, many of the mechanical details. Zuma's a much better game. I hope PopCap prevails - not just because I'm working with them, but also because if the PuzzLoop guys win, then pretty much every game out there is subject to lawsuit, because EVERY game builds to some extent on it's predecessors.

[impossible]

You know the Americans and their mentality. We will be up against American jurors. You know how biased they are towards Oriental companies.
Heh, like an American company in the Japanese court system would have any chance of winning. I could see American jurors ruling in favor of a Japanese company in many situations (although maybe not this one). I don't see Japanese jurors ruling in favor of anything American unless it would be blatantly wrong to do so(and even then...)

[steve bisson]

I think this would be the perfect place to link to this message from the creative director at popcap about our first game and clones in general.

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showpost.php?p=66089&postcount=20

read the whole thread here

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=4774&highlight=clone+comfort

Its funny how popcap make it sound like cloning a game from the past is not "stealing" compared to cloning a recent successfull tittle.

IMHO its the same. If you see what is happening with puzzloops you will understand what i mean. Re-releasing their work is almost imposible now that zuma and zuma clones have saturated the market. They "took" something from the original creators and their original work too. Weither its money or business opportunities cloning games from the past can hurt businesses too.

Don't get me wrong i am in favor of clones , our first game is a clone and many of our future ones will too ! as indie developers we more than often choose to work on stuff that is motivating for us and that is games based on a gameplay we loved. Who can spend weeks on "research and development" when you are struggling to make ends meet .

I find it offensive that a japanese would say " you know Americans and their mentality " . [Removed inflammatory Remarks - Chris Evans] I dont think its the American mentality that will ruin they legal effort, its the mentality of the whole game business and thats perfectly fine.

Back to clonning the way i see it is "best one wins" . So my vote is in Popcap's favor. I discovered the puzzloop gameplay thanks to them. I loved it , it was many moments of enjoyment for me that i would not have experienced otherwise. If the original creators want to sell as much games using that gameplay than they simply have to make a better game than zuma and destroy popcap's version just like popcap did for the original game.

Its an honest competition towards excellence.

EDIT : after playing puzzloop on realarcade i was not impressed at all. If they could not sell as much as they hoped well its propably more their fault. Popcap raised the bar and they did not understand that. [Removed inflammatory Remarks - Chris Evans].

[Dominique Biesmans]

If you see what is happening with puzzloops you will understand what i mean. Re-releasing their work is almost imposible now that zuma and zuma clones have saturated the market.

In fact, the downloadable Puzzloop was released before all the successful post Zuma clones like Luxor, Tumble Bugs, ... so at that point the 'saturation point' wasn't reached. In fact I t think it's debatable that they would have had more success if they would have released Puzzloop before Popcap had released Zuma.

[Chris Evans]

Let's try not to make this a Japanese culture vs. American culture debate. Keep it clone related. :)

[Olivier]

I thought that game concepts/mechanics couldn't be protected. What a disaster for us indies if such lawsuits succeed.

[sumner]

Let's try not to make this a Japanese culture vs. American culture debate. Keep it clone related. :)

You mean unlike this lawsuit? I think it's a little disappointing that Ozaki's motivation, based on this interview, has devolved into teaching the typically arrogant American company a lesson. :(

[paulhuxt]

But did Popcap ever released a game that is NOT a 90% (at least) ripp off of another game? :confused:

[Savant]

The key with PopCap is that they do it first. Then everyone copies them. PuzzLoop was right there for anyone to build a game on top of, but only PopCap did. That's why they're on top.

[sumner]

But did Popcap ever released a game that is NOT a 90% (at least) ripp off of another game? :confused:

If you don't mind someone questioning such a generalized statement, would you mind posting your list of each PopCap game and the corresponding "90% ripped off" game?

[Hiro_Antagonist]

But did Popcap ever released a game that is NOT a 90% (at least) ripp off of another game? :confused:
Umm. Very much yes? Have you played their games or looked at their library of offerings?

-Hiro_Antagonist

[Fost]

I don't have any problem at all with what popcap have done. It's impossible to patent a game design (rightly so), and so you can't really complain when someone takes your ideas and does good version of it with new artistic ip (sounds, graphics etc).

If anyone in fact has a problem with that, then surely they have a problem with the fps obssesed mainstream and how they've exploited Wolfenstein 3D all these years :).

We all have stood on the shoulders of giants - I often get email (mainly from younger customers who haven't seen the games that influenced us), who tell us how they thought Starscape (http://www.moonpod.com/starscape)was a really original idea - yet asteroids, UFO and star control have obviously had a huge impact on its design. We freely admit the influence, and hold those games in high esteem.

The only thing that makes me give a slight flinch is when people say 'zuma clones', as I think that's doing a great disservice to original game designers.

[steve bisson]

The key with PopCap is that they do it first. Then everyone copies them. PuzzLoop was right there for anyone to build a game on top of, but only PopCap did. That's why they're on top.

If they did not spend more money on marketing than actually producing games then maybe people would not try to surf their wave hehe free marketing for my next game ! i am in ! ;) just kidding.

[sumner]

The only thing that makes me give a slight flinch is when people say 'zuma clones', as I think that's doing a great disservice to original game designers.

Absolutely agree there.

[Raptisoft]

Its funny how popcap make it sound like cloning a game from the past is not "stealing" compared to cloning a recent successfull tittle.


This is a ridiculous statement. Popcap, in making Zuma, filled a market niche that the makers of Puzzloop didn't bother to fill-- and wouldn't have bothered to fill except Zuma made a billion skillion dollars.

Whereas the more brazen cloners around right now are PARASITES who look to someone who is doing well, meeting a demand, and immediately put out a little game with the EXACT same features as the original, in the hopes of drawing a little blood into their own stinking, fetid, vile, corpulent bellies.

Don't compare Popcap's treatment of Puzzloop to some of our copatriots treatment of Bejewelled and, er, other titles beginning with C. Puzzloop dropped the ball, Zuma picked it up. Besides, Zuma is such an advancement over Puzzloop that it made Puzzloop obsolete. That happens. It's Galaga to Space Invaders.

[Sharpfish]

Beginning with C?

Oh you mean all those Columns clones ;)

[Martoon]

Hmm - tried RealArcade's PuzzLoop. Assuming that this is the same as the original arcade PuzzLoop...
Actually, the downloadable PuzzLoop looks and feels a lot more like Zuma than like the original PuzzLoop.;)

[steve bisson]

Popcap, in making Zuma, filled a market niche that the makers of Puzzloop didn't bother to fill--

i am confused now, someone seemed to think the new puzzloop was release before zuma... and you are saying its the opposite. Anyone know ?

Anyway i like zuma better and like i said before for me its best one wins.

what if i made a "zuma clone" with robots and techno music , would i be filling a market niche the makers of zuma did not bother to fill :D ? i think so ! thanks for making my plan sound more legit ;) your argument can be used to explain the same thing that is happening with c clones. I feel empathy for the fact that you are losing money over the C clones really. But when i hear people raging about clones like that it kinda sound like someone bitching about is/her business not going the way its supposed too :/ don't over publicize it... plan a revenge... make a better game.... make the competition look obsolete !


I think that the original creator of puzzloops know that they dont have a case but its making troubles for popcap and that might be enough to restrain people from cloning games the way popcap did. Wich would be sad. I love clones , they are diferent "flavors" of my favorite games. For the consumer clones are a win win situation.

[digriz]

But did Popcap ever released a game that is NOT a 90% (at least) ripp off of another game? :confused:

Chuzzle? I know it's a variation on a match-3 game but i can't recall seeing anything else similar to it before it came out.

[Sharkbait]

I see an ironic twist of events here. There's a saying that goes along the lines of "The British invent it, the Americans make a product out of it, and the Japanese copy and improve it, eventually dominating the market". With Puzzloop, it is the exact opposite - it was an innovative idea from Japan that wasn't really succesful, but was cloned, improved and commercially successful in the US. To complete the cycle, all we need is a UK developer to top that! ;)

[luggage]

So how long is meant to pass before it's "OK" to clone another game? At what point is the ball picked up and it ceases to be a parasite. I presume there must be some time scale that can be put on it?

[Savant]

Look at how quickly the Chuzzle clones followed it's release. That's parasitic.

Now look at the time between PuzzLoop and Zuma. That's not.

[steve bisson]

To complete the cycle, all we need is a UK developer to top that!

WOOOOHHAAAAHAAA!!!! only now you realise our master plan ! ;)
nahhh... no puzzloop clones on the menu just yet hehe

Look at how quickly the Chuzzle clones followed it's release. That's parasitic.
Don't you see it as offering a new "flavor" ? i mean... if i like the gameplay but not the packaging there is options for me when there is some clones. When i shop for products i am happy there is a lot of similar products with different packaging or offerings.

I would not buy a pink toothbrush with flowers on it even if the utility is the same as the sturdy blue one . Someone else could feel the exact opposite.

[luggage]

So where's the line? At the moment you've put it at somewhere between 6 months and 4, 5 years. Care to elaborate? Would 2 years be enough? 1 year?

I can't agree with "It's ok for me to copy a game because not many people know about it, but it's not ok for anyone to copy my game."

[EJSainz]

Heh, like an American company in the Japanese court system would have any chance of winning. I could see American jurors ruling in favor of a Japanese company in many situations (although maybe not this one). I don't see Japanese jurors ruling in favor of anything American unless it would be blatantly wrong to do so(and even then...)

So it's like talking about dumb and dumber, heh :D ?

Now seriously, I won't stay on any of both sides, since, on one hand, I think that Zuma has used quite more than the main mechanic of the original game to appeal to a different audience, which is very distinctive; anyway, the main mechanic is also the big deal of a game, and having to develop it really costs time and money.

Anyway, I hope PuzzLoop wins this battle for just one reason: there would be a precedence on cloning as a "crime", so hopefully we would see a lot of really original games.

[EJSainz]

Don't you see it as offering a new flavor ? i mean... if i like the gameplay but not the packaging there is options for me when there is some clones. When i shop for products i am happy there is a lot of similar products with different packaging or offerings.

What about paying the original creators to get their permission to use that different flavour on their original product?

[steve bisson]

I can't agree with "It's ok for me to copy a game because not many people know about it, but it's not ok for anyone to copy my game."

exactly... i would agree to some extent thats its cheap to clone an original game from an indie dev ( like in the chuzzle case ) but with a game like zuma where its a clone to start with, it sounds really silly to bully people who cloned it.

What about paying the original creators to get their permission to use that different flavour on their original product?

If a law would forced people to do it they would but its not the case. I cant think of any business who gives out money when they dont have too. I think it will change eventually tho... maybe ? the digital age saw surfaced a whole bunch of ethics / copyright / legal issues that current society dont exactly know how to handle. It will settle down eventually. Until then a lot of digital products will proliferate in the free for all.

Take sound sampling for example, it took a while for the laws to adapt. It may be the same with games. The laws will change went it reach a breaking point ?

[Anthony Flack]

Perhaps; certainly the law is hopelessly broken with regards to games.

Software patents are awarded frivolously and are most commonly used by unscrupulous individuals to extort money.
Copyright does not adequately protect people's work.
The copyright period is far, far too long, and the fear is that strengthening copyright protection would only make things worse.

Don't you see it as offering a new "flavor" ? i mean... if i like the gameplay but not the packaging there is options for me when there is some clones. When i shop for products i am happy there is a lot of similar products with different packaging or offerings.

I would not buy a pink toothbrush with flowers on it even if the utility is the same as the sturdy blue one . Someone else could feel the exact opposite.

You're reducing games to the level of commodities. Nobody needs a constant stream of radically new toothbrush designs.

Developing new game designs is risky and expensive, and if there is no benefit in doing it, then people will give it up. If there is no reward for innovation, then the consumer certainly won't benefit in the long run, when the industry is overrun with cut-rate software companies in China turning out functional duplicates of the current favourites in 3 week development cycles.

[digriz]

Anyway, I hope PuzzLoop wins this battle for just one reason: there would be a precedence on cloning as a "crime", so hopefully we would see a lot of really original games.

No, what you would see is a lot of small developers being sued who cannot possibly afford to defend themselves.


To me, i think comparing zuma to puzz loop is like comparing Water Bugs to Qix... Similar idea but very different in reality.

[Bmc]

Chuzzle? I know it's a variation on a match-3 game but i can't recall seeing anything else similar to it before it came out.

barnyard invasion for starters, and color match on big fish by like a year

[Bmc]

Anyway, I hope PuzzLoop wins this battle for just one reason: there would be a precedence on cloning as a "crime", so hopefully we would see a lot of really original games.

yeh sure, then we all be getting sued all the time. hey look his game has a space ship and it fires 3 missiles at a time let's sue him, hey look his game matches gems let's sue him

cloning isn't a crime and it shouldn't be.

[cliffski]

if someone releases a more polished yet cheaper version of your game a month after its released, will you think the same way?
Where a game is a blatant clone (same gui layout, exact same game mechanic, but different sound / graphics), I'm all beind someone taking legal action. Otherwise people just won't spend any of the really hard work designing new games.

[Bmc]

that's life.... adapt or die

[papillon]

... well, some of us might be more inclined to work on games that are less clonable? :)

I don't know where the 'this is ripping off' line can be clearly drawn - and if it's not clear it just invites trouble. Witness the enormous wars we had here over... man, I'm afraid to even SAY the names lest that huge fight starts up again. :) A game that was clearly EXTREMELY STRONGLY INSPIRED by another game, and yet was not a 100% clone. In my opinion. Other opinions varied. That's the problem. :)

[cliffski]

that's life.... adapt or die

which equates to 'copy other peoples work and do nothing original'.
Im glad sid meier, peter molyneux and will wright dont agree with you.

[Phil Steinmeyer]

which equates to 'copy other peoples work and do nothing original'.
Im glad sid meier, peter molyneux and will wright dont agree with you.

Yes, because those three have never borrowed an idea or concept from a prior game.

[Savant]

There's a monstrous difference between borrowing and cloning.

[Bmc]

which equates to 'copy other peoples work and do nothing original'.
Im glad sid meier, peter molyneux and will wright dont agree with you.

way to misinterpret.

i was referring to your comment on how I would feel if someone cloned my game.

also: nice name dropping, names don't mean **** to me. ******* other peoples egoes is for followers and I'm a leader baby... a leader

(edited by retro64: keep it professional)

[mahlzeit]

cock stroking other peoples egoes is for followers and I'm a leader baby... a leader
But you're only a leader if you have followers. ;)

[Bmc]

But you're only a leader if you have followers. ;)

i'm just kidding around ;)

[cliffski]

way to misinterpret.

i was referring to your comment on how I would feel if someone cloned my game.

also: nice name dropping, names don't mean shit to me. cock stroking other peoples egoes is for followers and I'm a leader baby... a leader

what are you talking about? how is this name dropping? Im not claiming these are my mates. And how on earth am I misinterpreting your defence of blatant cloning exactly??

[Hiro_Antagonist]

So how long is meant to pass before it's "OK" to clone another game? At what point is the ball picked up and it ceases to be a parasite. I presume there must be some time scale that can be put on it?
While the game is actively selling and being marketed might be a reasonable place to draw the line...

[luggage]

So they crossed it with Zuma then I guess. Puzz Loop 2 was released in 2001, as far as I know Zuma was released 2003. Two years doesn't seem very long does it?

[Bmc]

just play Puzz Loop, then play Zuma

Zuma beats the living shit out of PuzzLoop in every single aspect (except being first)

Also, from what I hear there are only 5 stages all together in Puzz Loop (the one on the portals), which is ridiculous.

[luggage]

That's not the point though.

Well, unless you're saying that it's fine to rip off another game so long as some people think the new version is better? Some could argue that err.. "other" clones are better than the original game...

[svero]

Well for my part I have to support games like Zuma being made. Not because I've cloned or am cloning... but simply because zuma.. unlike its predecessor was a really fun game. Puzz loop... despite having the idea first... had such a lousy implementation that it offered little to the player. Does that mean we should forever just shut that basic idea down and never iterate from it? never create a new game based on the same concept? At what point is a game different enough to be called new? Space Invaders -> galaxian -> galaga -- surely at least galaxian and galaga are very similar. Maybe zuma doesnt introduce all that many new elements but it does introduce some.. a lot of them in the subtlety of he implementation. If allowing that, opens up the door to people making a cheap reskinned clone with nothing new at all in it.. well that's a price Im willing to pay.

[Anthony Flack]

Wasn't Galaga the sequel to Galaxian?

[EJSainz]

yeh sure, then we all be getting sued all the time. hey look his game has a space ship and it fires 3 missiles at a time let's sue him, hey look his game matches gems let's sue him

cloning isn't a crime and it shouldn't be.

Not necessarily. Almost every of us can tell appart a clone from a newly done game. As an example, I'm right now developing a game that's unavoidably inspired by Bubble Bobble, Snow Brothers, and games like those, but when you'll be seeing it you'll find the mechanics are really very different. Not on walking, of course, but in the way to clean the enemies.

In fact, when you compare Bubble Bobble and Snow Brothers you know they are not clones: they use the same "one screen platformer - kill'em all" concept, but the mechanics are so different and the few elements they have are so far from each other that you have to agree that they are not clones.

[EJSainz]

Yes, because those three have never borrowed an idea or concept from a prior game.

Of course they've borrowed other ideas from other games (and not necessarily computer games), but their games are just fresh, different, you can't say "hey, this whole games is just like that other game".

Being original doesn't mean starting an idea from 0, but developing it to an extent that the idea becomes just different to all other ideas you were basing yours on. I like the example of the first "Commandos": it's a bit like an RTS, then it's a bit like Metal Gear, then it's a bit like ... but when you played it, you knew you just had never played something like that before. And that's originality.

[svero]

Wasn't Galaga the sequel to Galaxian?

Well I dont know if it was or it wasn't. The point isn't so much who makes the better or more evolved or even different flavour game. The point is that I see some value in the variations. I know John Raptis was annoyed by Faires, and I can certainly understand where he's coming from, but at the same time faries did bring some things to the table that I appreciated as a player that chuzzle lacked (and vice versa). The same is true of Zuma. I think we'd be poorer in some ways without these versions. That being said I think I'd be in favour of some time lapse between a game like chuzzle and faries.. say a year.. but it's so hard to quantify exactly what's meant and how to do it. In the absence of a simple system to prevent so called parasite cloning, I guess Id have to err on the side of allowing copies for the diversity they introduce. Zuma was puzz loop and yet... in so many ways it was not. Zuma was a game I played to death, and puzz loop one I put aside after a few sessions. Surely therefor they're not the same.

[Anthony Flack]

Yup, and there lies the danger of trying to legislate these sorts of things. But if recent trends continue, court battles are surely on the way sooner or later. Since lawsuits would obviously be destructive, while an industry built on systematic parasitic cloning would also be destructive (not least because it would encourage lawsuits), I always advocated a simple, non-enforcable policy of just trying to be reasonable. Some people will laugh at that. But the least we can do is just try to be reasonable ourselves, and not take such an amoral* attitude towards our businesses. After all, we here are a community of sorts. We shouldn't need legislation to stop us from turning on ourselves.

* nb: different word to immoral.

(Oh, and yeah, Galaga is the sequel to Galaxian - I looked it up. I know it was just an example, but there ya go)

[princec]

You'd be surprised at the vehemence some people can exhibit when they don't understand your point of view. I gather ErikH would gladly shop me to the FBI if I gave my dad and a few friends a copy of my full version of DRoD, whereas I'd actually encourage him to allow his friends and family to register Ultratron under his email address. Small differences of opinion can sometimes lead to big fights. Over a few dollars.

Cas :)

[Savant]

Well, there's opinion and there's law. One is arguable, the other is not. You may not like the law, may not agree with it, etc. but that doesn't change the fact that the line of right and wrong has been established.

And no, I won't be getting into this any further because I can already see the response that will be written up to this. And then my response to that, and so on. Just wanted to make my point and I'm done.

[Stu]

Well, there's opinion and there's law. One is arguable, the other is not.

That's your opinion.

And you're wrong. :p

[Savant]

And you're wrong.
You're saying that law is arguable?

[mahlzeit]

That's why we have judges and lawyers. They argue. ;)

[Stu]

You're saying that law is arguable?

Wow. I would be less surprised if you said, "are you telling me that the world isn't flat?"

Yes Savant, "law" is arguable.

The great cloning debate does not boil down to "law."

"Law" has to be interpreted and applied in every legal case, sometimes easy, sometimes not. (What laws apply? Were the laws broken? Who broke them? How do we punish them? Is the law legal?) This is done by "arguing." The arguing is done by plaintiffs, defendents, LAWYERS, prosecutors, etc. The arguing is done in front of judges, jurors, etc. Then, the judges and jurors give their OPINIONS and the case is decided. From there, a case may be appealed where the arguing starts all over. This can go on for years and those paid to professionally argue (LAWYERS) make fortunes in the process.

"Law" does not establish a razor thin line that divides right from wrong.

[Anthony Flack]

And it's continually changing as circumstances change, too.

[Savant]

Yeah, hey, there are those responses I was talking about...

One quick note: What gave you the impression I was talking about lawyers/judges not being able to argue the law? I mean, seriously. You can stop capitalizing LAWYERS now since you're not even making a relevant point.

[Stu]

One quick response to your one quick note: Well I would ask you next just what you did mean by "law is not arguable" but you're right, any discussion that stems from that statement is absurd as the statement itself is absurd.

"I always advocated a simple, non-enforcable policy of just trying to be reasonable." (Anthony Flack)

Speaking of relevance this is the best we can do and it deserves to be repeated.

[Savant]

I'm hating myself for writing this, but I said I wouldn't take it any further and I'm not going to. The responses so far are EXACTLY what I was expecting. It's amazing. Not discussing further. Move along.

[paulhuxt]

It seems trying to establish "cloning" (not just "borrowing ideas here and to") as a normal/acceptable practice is interesting for:

part 1: (those are quite irrelevant and harmless)

- game designers having poor or few ideas, or just having fun with copying the games they like.

- "parasites" nicely mentioned above in this thread by Chuzzle's "creator" (?).

- "philosophers" who see cloning it as the perfect materialization of the "immateriality or un-protectability of ideas". Note: in philosophy it is NOT "common practice" to borrow the core ideas of another philosopher and re-write its works... they rather give credit of their sources.

part 2: (those are more dangerous because they can use their dominant position to "set the rules"):

- publishers having found a niche market and having substancial means to "port", "adapt" previous game mechanics of other games to this niche market... which seems economically sound.. on the short term.

- retailers/portals that are ALSO publishers, and don't want to pay royalties to the cloned game's creators (this situation already occurs in hypermarket industry)

The problem with these is that they tend to resemble to those of part 1, give echo to those of part 1, and ... while the niche tends to mixup with the other game industries, may really end up in the part 1 category.
The more they try to justify themselves (strangely, they rarely admit that economic profit is their sole motivation, preferring to resort to hyprocrit reasons like artistic quality, or else), the more they look like those of part 1.

More seriously, they tend to make things more difficult for innovating indies (if any), and for innovation in general:

- As an independant developper, I would be very careful before submitting a game to a "serial-cloner" publisher.
- But nevertheless, if a release a game by myself and if it makes a hit, it will take 3-6 months to these serial-cloners, to release an "enhanced" title (more graphics, more sounds, more movie stars, more movie licence, more production value,...?).




This was just to point out what stakes hide behind "promoting cloning as acceptable practice", ..

My conclusion is that there is ALSO and moreover actually a greater interest for the game design itself and the game designers as economic agents, in despising this pratice.

This kind of "conflict between interests" already occured in history (eg with theater writers)... Sometimes it can even end with a formalized "rule" or "law", sometimes not, but the absence of rule is not a precondition for resigning.

[Anthony Flack]

The responses so far are EXACTLY what I was expecting. It's amazing.

No it isn't. It's entirely predictable, because that's how things are. It's, you know, the obvious point to make.

Not discussing further. Move along.

Well, all right then, I suppose.