A few words about Piracy

[Gilzu]

After reading (quite) a few threads about piracy, having some thought about mine, getting my game pirated - I came to some conclusions.

Some were created to comfort myself, some were to face the cold harsh truth.

1. There is some sort of flattery in Piracy:
The idea that someone spent his time hacking your game probably means he thinks or got the idea your game is good and popular enough to hack it. I do not justify or encourage piracy - but you must admit that its an index on how successful your game is.

2. There is no such thing as a bad publicity:
Also, even that your (and my) game got hacked, it still generated publicity. I know that those who are using a hacked version will never buy the game, but now they know the company/game. If a decent costumer will hear his friends talking about the game (even if they are using a hacked version) he will likely to get more interested with it.

3. Piracy may sometime turn to sale:
There's also the two cases of those who use a pirated copy and then buy the game because they appreciate it - It's more common than you think. I hear all the time phrases like "XXX liked that game so much that he bought it". I know about many softwares being pirated and only later bought, take winzip for example.
The second case is someone playing and loving the first game, so much that he go and buy the next one. I admit that my most favourite game was Commander Keen 5. I didn't have a modem then and my first copy was pirated. I liked it so much that i bought all six game of the series (that 7th sucked!) via mail from apogge - something very uncommon in the days before the internet and online shopping.

4. Keys, Locks and Verfications:
Some claim that theres no use fighting against piracy. Some claim that you should spend every bit of your time doing that. I can mention many ways of key-lock/server-verfication/time-locking/ect. mechanisms that can also hurt decent buyers.
Then again, last night I saw on TV how thieves walked in a high-tech store, mid-day, and took a 43" plasma screen, dish-washer and a laptop and went right out. without any security guard stopping them. Everyone just assumed they paid. Only the security cameras recorded this, and the managers sent it to the local news to warn the theives that next time, it wont be so easy.
I don't plan to have the same security as that store. Then again, I wouldn't want to check every costumer with a full body-search. problem is finding a spot in-between.

5. HIRING NOW: Pirate-Hunter for night shifts
I know I'll be crushed after watching my game being hacked. Every time i'll see it. I know i'll want to go and bring every hacker's server down if he has my hacked game on it. Problem is, That there's no assurance I'll be able to spot every copy. Also, I know that it will take tons of my time bringing every server down.
I just hope I'll find enough time to deal with programming/ testing/ graphics/ publishing/ bug-fixing/ costumer-care. You can't commit yourself fully to a cause without braking the balance. You might spend 3 days bringing that darn website down, but keep in mind that means less time for other things as well.

6. My biggest fear
One thing that I hadn't dealt with yet. Considering i'll go to a vacation to some nice coast in france/italy/england/california, go to a record store, and see my game being published by someone i don't know and never approached by.
Piracy might hurt, but not as much as someone taking credit on your game, and earning your living. Also, to take down a website is one thing (call his ISP/ eCommerce service), but when its ther on the stores?

Some open questions to you guys:
This is my current point of view. It changed over time, and will probably continue to. I was wondering how did you react after you actually realised and accepted that your game was pirated. What was the most offensive way of pirating? something i havent mentioned? (I was actually flattered by a trainer to my game. Made me smile all day)

[Sol_HSA]

One game I worked on for symbian-based phones had a registration key system based on the device hardware ID.

The game eventually got hacked, and we found a key generator for it. This kind of made us jealous as obviously the hackers had better tools to develop symbian stuff than we had =)

Anyway, high-end mobile phone game sales (*cough*ngage*cough) have been so abysmal since it's so hard to reach the customers, that we didn't feel that piracy is a bad thing, if it helps spread the word of our games..

[Anthony Flack]

I am left wondering why on earth the store managers wanted to warn the thieves it wouldn't be so easy next time.

[ManuelFLara]

I am left wondering why on earth the store managers wanted to warn the thieves it wouldn't be so easy next time.
Yeah, although I highly doubt the thieves would return to that same store, so putting the video on TV would serve to warn other stores about those thieving practices.

[Gilzu]

Yeah, although I highly doubt the thieves would return to that same store, so putting the video on TV would serve to warn other stores about those thieving practices.

Wanted to make the same point about games. Posting a 50y/o guard that check recipts (and doesnt even know how to identify a fake one) would have prevented this silly act of thivery. Make the same analogy to software piracy.

[cliffski]

if the benefits of piracy as you outline are so great, make your games real shareware, ie give away the full version and ask people to register. Because thats what piracy does. Theres no law stopping a pirate buying the full version. They just don't.
The easier it is to get a free copy of your game, the less chance of people buying them. Some of the top hits this month on my site are from some pathetic 0day website. Its because of a pirated copy of one of my games. How many units did I sell that month?
none.
pirates do NOT buy the full version, they just steal your hard work for nothing. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever, I rejoice when I hear about pirates getting busted.
Video games arent food, drugs or shelter, nobody NEEDS them. I'm not remotely flattered if some 13 year old geek pirates my games. I hope the little sh*t gets caught.
so we should probably agree to differ :D

[princec]

I don't give two shits about pirates and never have done, and largely concur with Gil. I put a fairly trivial lock on my games (serverside validation) and it rarely causes bother. Locks keep honest people honest but on the other hand I really don't think cracking a game and posting it on the net is piracy. Nor do I think that giving a game to your friends is piracy - I even encourage people to let their friends and family register my games with their email addresses. What I do most strongly object to is selling my games and not giving me any money. And you know the funniest thing is that the worst culprits I've heard for doing this are actually publishers.

Cas :)

[Frozen In Ice]

I do agree with you cliffski. There is another point too. Some scum buy the games with stolen credit cards... if the processor doesn't have strong enough fraud measures, the blasted thing goes through and within hours the key is placed on pirate sites/newsgroups. I still see hits from 0day since the episode in May of last year.

[Gilzu]

if the benefits of piracy as you outline are so great, make your games real shareware, ie give away the full version and ask people to register.

I Don't think about them as benefits.It's not that I agree/accept/support piracy - quite otherwise. Notice that i do refer in the last couple of points why you SHOULD protect your game.

I used to have no opinion about piracty. It all changed when I saw my own game get pirated. It changed again when I accepted that my game can and will get pirated.

Unlike me before a couple of years, when I'll (hopefully won't) see my next game pirated, I'll go ballistic. But at least in the "cool me down before I'll explode"/"fool's comfort" department, these pointers will at least calm me down for the few minutes.

Then again, it's all about accepting that you'll face difficulties in publishing your game. Piracy is one of them. I accept that I'll have trouble with bugs/clients/refunds/taxes/ect. - each generate issues you'll have to deal with and you can see many of them as 100% punishment.

Check out pointer #5. Like you spend time each day with Costumer Relationships / Programming / Publishing / ect. you should find that time to deal with wares and legal issues. Deal with piracy the same way you deal with other aspects of making a game. I wanted to point out that spending too much or no time at all (like that store) is a big error.

To sum it all:

I think that you can only serve your business (and health) well if you expect difficulties like pirated.
I also think its good to know how to react to that. I wish I could react the same way I react to when I get a flat tire. Just another bummer I'll have to deal with and not ignore. Not like the world ended.
I think that you shouldn't exaggerate with the time spent on your cause, as good and right as it is, because it will tip you off balance and prevent you from making your game.
I do think that you should dedicate pirate-hunting-time and work out some protection scheme. It's just as important as Publishing and Developing.
And yes, having your game pirated does mean your game is good enough to be cracked. A very uncomforting point, but you shouldn't ignore it.

[Sol_HSA]

if the benefits of piracy as you outline are so great, make your games real shareware, ie give away the full version and ask people to register. Because thats what piracy does. Theres no law stopping a pirate buying the full version. They just don't.

There is a slight difference between "well, I kind of like this game, but since it's shareware I only need to pay if I feel like it" and "well, I kind of like this game.. maybe I should pay for it, since it's a pirated copy". My perception is that people don't take shareware seriously, at least in case of games.

I know that lots of people pirate games, as well as buy games. Sometimes they buy copies of the games they pirated earlier. As an analogy, back in the "napster" days I used to buy tons of audio CDs based on what I found as MP3s. Now that RIAA & co have pretty much wiped out mp3 piracy from my point of view (can't really risk it), I've stopped buying audio CDs completely as well. I'm all net radio and podcast consumer now..

Of course there are those who woulnd't buy your game in any case, but might play the pirated copy. I don't see this as a great loss. Maybe they'll get a life later on and buy some other game from you, based on the positive vibes they've got from your brand. Or maybe not.

The main problem group with piracy are people who could and would buy your game, but aren't buying it because they can grab the pirated copy instead - the 'casual copying' group much touted by the copy protection people. Tricky bit here would be to make things teeny bit harder for these people while not causing any kind of problems for the good customers. If the bad ones really want to, any kind of copy protection will be cracked eventually.

[Fost]

I (think) I have a view that pretty much nobody else shares: in that I believe if the effort involved in cracking a game is really great, then people who previously pirated games will actually buy them. I've seen this happen in the past, and I keep seeing it more and more.

I'm certainly not losing sleep over it, but my opinion of the current 'vogue' in thinking, that piracy actually helps is laughable.



Still, that's just me, off in the corner, :)

[papillon]

but my opinion of the current 'vogue' in thinking, that piracy actually helps is laughable.


Probably because many people here either are, or knows someone who is, both a pirate and a purchaser. It DOES happen.

Still, most of the situations in which piracy is likely to lead to more sales simply don't apply in the indie/downloadable situation.

"I wanted to try it before I buy it!" - almost all of us have demos, so this isn't needed.

"Playing one game free made me a fan so I bought future games" - most of us don't put out enough titles to really feel the benefit of this sort of fandom? Also, some people around here may not be sufficiently unique to really develop a following, but that's another story. :)

"Had never heard of the game and wouldn't have tried it if friend hadn't given me a burned copy" - Most of our games are easily accessible online. Your friend could have sent you a link.

"Liked it enough I wanted to get a pretty box to keep" - well, most of us don't have pretty box copies. :) Many pirates aren't going to see any benefit in actually paying for the game if they've already got everything it has to offer.

[princec]

Christ, I've ripped off stuff left right and centre, and I've paid for tons of stuff too. Never ripped off an indie game though (funny that) but you know, that's probably because nobody I know plays them and they cost fuck all anyway and I've got plenty of cash for trinkets like that. If a mate gave me his download of Platypus, I'd take it, and though I think Anthony's great I'd not even feel a twinge of guilt nor any urge to send $20 his way. However I'd know about Cletus Clay by now and I'd be waiting for it pretty eagerly.

So I can burn in hell :)

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Cas :)

[ErikH2000]

1. There is some sort of flattery in Piracy:
Nah. People will crack and distribute your game without even knowing what it is. It's mostly just a dumb little boy's game where lonely geeks pretend they're a legendary part of the "scene", whatever that is. My game was thrown up on a torrent by a group of bored twirps in Eastern Europe that were just looking for the coup of releasing it before anyone else. I'm not flattered.
2. There is no such thing as a bad publicity:
You can get the wrong kind of attention and have it eat up your time and resources. Here's one example of a guy who pirated the game and tried to wriggle his way into getting more from me:

"I'm still stuck with the copy my son got from a friend (?) who bought it at some thrown together show who is now unreachable.(jail) How's about helping me with the "free CaravelNet" offer?"

He started off in a less obvious way and it took me several e-mails to be sure he was a fraud. I also get more traffic on my forum for other games than my own like "notpr0n" and "GodTower". I'm really tempted to shut these topics down, effectively sending many eyeballs away, because the people that come in to the site for these games make trouble and mostly aren't interested in Caravel games. There is such a thing as attention that you don't want.
Also, even that your (and my) game got hacked, it still generated publicity. I know that those who are using a hacked version will never buy the game, but now they know the company/game.
There are three groups of people. 1. Those that will never buy your game whether it's available to them illegally for free or not. 2. Those that will always buy your game, either way. 3. Those that will only buy your game if they can't get it for free. Group #3 exists, and admittedly, we'll never be able to prove how big it is. But an absolute statement like "people that download pirate copies wouldn't buy the game anyway" ignores the reality that some people are affected one way or the other.
3. Piracy may sometime turn to sale:
It's true. I've had about 30 sales of my online service from people who never bought the original game that is an almost-necessary complement. My only explanation is that some people pirated the game and ended up buying the online service. But that doesn't mean I want to lay down and accept piracy as an acceptable means of distribution because it turned up some sales for me. I will spend some suitable amount of time making it harder for people to find the pirated copies, and that means more (not all) of the group 3 people will end up buying a legitimate copy.
4. Keys, Locks and Verfications:
Some claim that theres no use fighting against piracy. Some claim that you should spend every bit of your time doing that. I can mention many ways of key-lock/server-verfication/time-locking/ect. mechanisms that can also hurt decent buyers.
There's middle ground. You find a good effort/reward ratio and stick with it.
5. HIRING NOW: Pirate-Hunter for night shifts
I know I'll be crushed after watching my game being hacked. Every time i'll see it. I know i'll want to go and bring every hacker's server down if he has my hacked game on it. Problem is, That there's no assurance I'll be able to spot every copy. Also, I know that it will take tons of my time bringing every server down.
I completely agree with you that it makes no sense to spend a lot of time going after hackers. I think what works is to have a managable process you go through and resolve yourself to partial success. At some point you have to let go and not make it into an absolutist war, because of course, you'll never win anything but battles here and there.

I have form letters for site administrators, hacker groups, and forums. I introduce myself as a developer on the team, explain how hard I worked on my games, how I'm upset they're distributing my work, and would they please stop? 3 out of 4 people respond by taking the torrent link/listing down. Some people apologize profusely. One guy went on a bunch of other private boards for me and asked for links to be removed on my behalf. It all helps a little bit.

I like to be practical in my approach to piracy, but there's more going on here than just the practicality of it. It's not just lost sales; it's wrong. That's my work that everyone is stealing, and most of them are just doing it because they're lazy and bored and all their friends are doing it. Mostly it's just ordinary, well-intentioned people that are ripping off games, and I don't see them as enemies. But it's still wrong. People will keep pirating forever, sure, but I don't want to act like everybody doing it is okay and rationalize they are doing me a favor.

-Erik

[ErikH2000]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
THWOK. Right between your eyeballs, buddy. My system's clean of ripped-off games or other media for that matter, so I'm without sin. It's really pretty easy to simply buy what you use as far as software is concerned, particularly games, which aren't necessary things to have by any stretch. It's not like you're stealing bread to feed your family.

Shame on you. You create software, after all.

Format your drive and start reinstalling using only software that you own or is free. You'll feel better when it's done.

-Erik

[svero]

My view of piracy is simple. I put pirates in the following categories of people...

1) People who will take a free copy when it's easy to get, but who might otherwise pay

2) People who pirate and collect games as a hobby/game hackers etc..

3) Pro pirates who will make a sell cd's like a distributor (pretty common in asian countries, but it also happens in North America and Europe.. and apparently on ebay as I've seen with my own games)

4) People who have no money and resort to piracy instead of buying as their only means to get the game. Often this category will include teenagers with no jobs etc...

I figure there's not a whole lot I can do about 2 and 3 and 4 most of the time, so for the most part I ignore all that unless there's some simple obvious way to deal with it.

The main one that concerns me is group 1. That's the group of people that generally would be buyers if there were some detterent, but aren't for some trivial reason. (ie their friend made them a copy and it was easy to do) They're also the group that would keep the free shareware version and not register IF there were no lock outs of any kind. Since that group are generally not the same people as set 2 - the main hackers/pirates, it's sufficient to simply put in some trivial kind of lockout like a full version download and hope they dont grab a copy somewhere else like kazaa or whatever. There's not much point to doing anything fancy since these are mostly cusual computer users who wouldnt know how to get by the simplest protection mechanisms.

I've said it before but I'll note again that I think we're currently losing a lot of sales due to the way games timeout and portals work. I can download zuma from popcap, pogo, yahoo, iwin, reflexive, shockwave, etc.. Enough free hours to complete the game. And to make matters worse, many games save progress in a standard place like the registry, so you can save your game and keep playing. Those are the sorts of things we should seek to deter. Make sure the casual user who might buy has a reason to. Chasing after people who have no money, or who hack for fun is a waste of time. Shutting down the pro pirates who make and sell cd's is good, but often in that case it's too difficult to make it worth your time. The balance there is generally skewed in favor of the pirate.

[princec]

THWOK. Right between your eyeballs, buddy. My system's clean of ripped-off games or other media for that matter, so I'm without sin. It's really pretty easy to simply buy what you use as far as software is concerned, particularly games, which aren't necessary things to have by any stretch. It's not like you're stealing bread to feed your family.

Shame on you. You create software, after all.

Format your drive and start reinstalling using only software that you own or is free. You'll feel better when it's done.

-Erik
It is mine. It was given to me. It's as simple as that as far as I care. Same goes for ripping mp3 tracks, and the same goes for borrowing books. I don't get why everyone feels it's their god-given right for me to hand over money to the authors of IP. I've got your shit, and it's mine now. Why not concentrate on figuring out how to make me want to buy something? Why not make me feel like I must own the physical media for it? Exa: Ween brought out White Pepper a few years ago - I only found it by accident searching gnutella for unreleased rare live Ween grooves. I downloaded the whole album at high quality mp3. But I had to have the CD. I love Ween. I want everything they make. Turn me into a fan, otherwise your stuff is a passing fancy which genuinely isn't worth my efforts.

Cas :)

[Gilzu]

It is mine. It was given to me. It's as simple as that as far as I care. Same goes for ripping mp3 tracks, and the same goes for borrowing books. I don't get why everyone feels it's their god-given right for me to hand over money to the authors of IP. I've got your shit, and it's mine now. Why not concentrate on figuring out how to make me want to buy something? Why not make me feel like I must own the physical media for it? Exa: Ween brought out White Pepper a few years ago - I only found it by accident searching gnutella for unreleased rare live Ween grooves. I downloaded the whole album at high quality mp3. But I had to have the CD. I love Ween. I want everything they make. Turn me into a fan, otherwise your stuff is a passing fancy which genuinely isn't worth my efforts.

Cas :)

Thats a disturbing thought. I always liked used books. They're cheap and totaly legal. I'm fine with that.

Thinking of it, I could do the same analogy to a game and say that X bought the game from me. He finished playing with it and handed it over/sold it to Y. will make me puke if it was my game.

If you finish reading a book and let someone else read it makes you a pirate?

Gee. Thanks Cas. Now i'm disturbed by a double-moral question.

I still don't agree with shareware Piracy.

[princec]

You must first ask yourself what piracy actually is before you can make a judgement on it. I probably don't see eye to eye with any other devs here on the matter of piracy, yet I myself am a developer. I'm a firm believer in the school of "Mrs Doasyouwouldbedoneby". I even encourage the "piracy" of my own games according to some other devs' definitions. I don't see it as piracy though - I see it as people's right to do what they want with something they own. The only thing I object to is other people selling my stuff without giving me some money. Only authorised entities should gain financially from Puppygames' efforts.

Cas :)

[Gilzu]

You must first ask yourself what piracy actually is before you can make a judgement on it. I probably don't see eye to eye with any other devs here on the matter of piracy, yet I myself am a developer. I'm a firm believer in the school of "Mrs Doasyouwouldbedoneby". I even encourage the "piracy" of my own games according to some other devs' definitions. I don't see it as piracy though - I see it as people's right to do what they want with something they own. The only thing I object to is other people selling my stuff without giving me some money. Only authorised entities should gain financially from Puppygames' efforts.

Piracy is defined by the game's EULA. There the publishers annouces what the holder of the game may and may not do. If you chose to have it open coded, freely-copied than its not piracy.

Problem does occur when the publisher DOESNT want it to be copied and publish it via his EULA (both legally and logically, if you wont specify what you want, dont expect people to do it). When someone copy your game - while you don't agree with it is almost the same as Intelectual-Property-rape. hence the bad feeling.

[princec]

The problem is that piracy has to be defined in the same way by all the involved parties. Did you know it's illegal to lend books according to the "EULA" printed in the front? Do you agree with that? Of course not! But you don't think twice about it. I bet that 99.99% of authors don't think twice about borrowing books either.

Cas :)

[Savant]

Show me a man who has never pirated software and I'll show you a bald faced liar. Please. At some point we've all used a copy of something that wasn't quite legit.

[princec]

You know, the whole term "piracy" really gets my goat as well. It was of course invented by the RIAA or similar some time ago ("home taping is killing the music industry!", yeah right) to make good people sound like evil people. In the same way they now call it "theft" when it most certainly isn't theft. I lend you my Ween CD and now I'm "stealing food out of Dean Ween's baby's mouth?" Oh please.

Cas :)

[cliffski]

home taping and books are different. I know maybe two dozen people I would lend a book to. I could tape an album for maybe a dozen friends. But with software, I can throw your hard efforts into my shared folder on emule, and share it to 2,000 people I never met all over the world, in a nice easily searchable database.
Thats a whole order of magnitude different from lending a book, and could potentially tear the whole intellectual property system to pieces.
You really think that the kids on warez forums and p2p getting software for free today will buy your next game? or you think they will post to foprums saying "is the new puppygames one on bit-torrent yet?"
We have to work hard to show people that you can be against software piracy and still not be evil DMCA RIAA Sony Rootkit swine. They are agiving the whole fioght to protect IP a bad name.

[princec]

While I realise that getting free stuff on P2P is a problem for us when it comes to making money there's a combination of mitigating factors involved.

Firstly by using serverside validation, P2P is pretty useless without an actual crack. I really don't trust cracks because they're just as often as not evil malware themselves. That convenient fact that using cracks is like playing Russian roulette keeps the actual usage of cracked serverside validated software very low relative to the percentage of total users. In fact just using unsigned software from a P2P site gives me the shudders, so I won't. Ever. I don't run a virus checker on any of my machines, and with good reason - I don't actually have to.

Secondly, if we accept the fact that stuff get spread around no matter what, nor how blue in the face we get or how often we rant or waste time on phones or writing emails to webmasters, we can start thinking about how to take advantage of the situation.

Thirdly, people who don't want to pay for something, won't. No amount of cleverness or imagination will change their mind. If you are worried about these people... don't be. Because you're never going to get their money. They may as well not exist. Concentrate your efforts on extracting money from people who like to give it to you.

Cas :)

[Savant]

I don't run a virus checker on any of my machines, and with good reason - I don't actually have to.
Off topic, but how do you know? You could be infected and not have any clue about it if you're not scanning. I'm as careful as you are but I still run McAfee in the background just in case. You never know when a finger slip or an errant click might turn you down a dark alley.

[princec]

I reckon I'm as safe as anyone with McAfee simply by knowing an awful lot about computer security. McAfee practically slows every machine it's installed on to a crawl anyway - may as well have a virus ;)

There is also the theory that if you rely on a bit of software you'll get pretty badly bitten when that bit of software fails and be lax about how you behave in your secure and comfy bubble, which is a double whammy.

Cas :)

[Artinum]

I've known people who strongly object to piracy, and will not use pirated software on their machine - with the exception of anything from Microsoft.

I'm sure there's a moral standpoint in there somewhere.

[Gilzu]

home taping and books are different. I know maybe two dozen people I would lend a book to. I could tape an album for maybe a dozen friends. But with software, I can throw your hard efforts into my shared folder on emule, and share it to 2,000 people I never met all over the world, in a nice easily searchable database.

youre saying its isnt possible to do the same with books and music?
Its already happening. Books, movies, TV shows - everything that can be copied at-home.

The magnitude of the crime doesnt change its legality.

You really think that the kids on warez forums and p2p getting software for free today will buy your next game? or you think they will post to foprums saying "is the new puppygames one on bit-torrent yet?"

It worked with Doom 3 and HL2 - both were out on hundreds of computers weeks before release. they still do. Do they sell?

[cliffski]

yeah Doom 3 sells, but would it sell mroe if a cracke copy was impossible?
Yes
And people rpefer to read a book on the train or the sofa without lugging a PC around. thats the difference. People expect to need a PC to play a game.
P2P has elevated piracy to the point where its trivial, searchable and widespread. I'm sure thats one of the big reasons companies are moving to the consoles. Piracy is worse now than it ever has been, and it IS losing people their jobs.

[princec]

That's too bad, but it's a fact of life, and I even consider it one of my rights. So there's not enough money to go round and not enough incentive to pay these people to write games? Then somebody cheaper will come along and do it. The world turns etc. I think you said so yourself in the "what's going to happen in 5 years from now" thread - all the match-3'ers in here will be long gone back to insurance firms and banks because all the casual games will be written by indians for peanuts. If I were a casual games company exec that'd probably be my first move - sack all the western developers to mitigate costs. Wouldn't care about piracy then as we'd still make a fat profit if the games cost $10k to develop instead of $250k.


Cas :)

[Savant]

Do they sell?
To be fair, yes, but only because you need a CD key to play online.

[Jack Norton]

To be fair, yes, but only because you need a CD key to play online.
Exactly... as I said already in a similar thread, I had a friend I knew since C64 times. He was famous for not having ever bought a original game! :D
When I showed him Everquest some years ago, he HAD to buy it , otherwise he couldn't play.
Quite a record for someone that in over 20 years of gaming never spent a single dollar (or euros if you prefer) :eek:

[princec]

But what was actually sold? Not the software. No-one cares if that was ripped off or not! They're paying for the extra sizzle with the steak - a service that you can't rip off. I think soniCron in one of his moments of lucidity recently spake of the indie game market going increasingly multiplayer. Well, there's your services. Easy money, right? Stop worrying about supplying digital media and then being surprised when someone actually copies it!

Cas :)

[cliffski]

what about single player games. Half life 2 had steam, does anyone think it viable for single player games to require a web connection to play?

[princec]

Not on the PC, no.

Cas :)

[ErikH2000]

But what was actually sold? Not the software. No-one cares if that was ripped off or not! They're paying for the extra sizzle with the steak - a service that you can't rip off. I think soniCron in one of his moments of lucidity recently spake of the indie game market going increasingly multiplayer. Well, there's your services. Easy money, right? Stop worrying about supplying digital media and then being surprised when someone actually copies it!
Okay, so your line is basically Ye Olde "There is no intellectual property", right? You've got respect for physical things that can pass from one person to another in the real world, but if the thing exists electronically, everyone should be able to copy it at will with no penalty. And if I want to sell my work, I should attach it to something real like a very pretty box that people will want to have.

Do I understand you correctly?

Or is your argument more like, "hey, if you don't protect yourself, expect to get stolen from?" If so, then let's just say you're amoral and be done with it.

-Erik

[princec]

No, that's not what I'm saying. There's intellectual property all right, and there's even laws to protect it, but the laws are not enforceable without conflicting with certain rights that I have decided I have, namely the right do what the hell I like with ideas and information that I have. I myself operate within certain boundaries which are a contract I have with society - you won't see me putting people's full versions of games on p2p networks, and nor will you see me selling burned Ween CDs. But I reserve the right to give software to people if I feel like it, as I reserve the right to lend people my books and rip MP3s for friends if I think they'll like the tunes.

Physical things are completely, totally different. You can't copy a car or a shoe or a phone - you need to make them. That's why it works so differently for those things.

And yes, if you don't protect yourself, expect to get your stuff nicked. Everybody knows that. That's what people are like. I wouldn't go calling me amoral, though, as I am one of the most principled, stubborn and moralistic pedants you'll ever meet.

Cas :)

[papillon]

*robs princec's house*

Whaaaaaaat? I'm poorer than you are! I need it more! :)

[ErikH2000]

No, that's not what I'm saying. There's intellectual property all right, and there's even laws to protect it, but the laws are not enforceable without conflicting with certain rights that I have decided I have, namely the right do what the hell I like with ideas and information that I have. I myself operate within certain boundaries which are a contract I have with society - you won't see me putting people's full versions of games on p2p networks, and nor will you see me selling burned Ween CDs. But I reserve the right to give software to people if I feel like it, as I reserve the right to lend people my books and rip MP3s for friends if I think they'll like the tunes.
Okay. You got some kind of personal morality worked out for yourself--I'll give you that. It seems a little arbitrary, but I see there's more going on there than just "Screw you guys. I do what I want!"

-Erik

[Artinum]

Physical things are completely, totally different. You can't copy a car or a shoe or a phone - you need to make them. That's why it works so differently for those things.


They aren't all that different. If you were a competitor in the racing car market, you could strip down that new racing car and find out what's new about the engine. You need to make them, yes - but copying is always easier than creating. This too is theft of intellectual property. Does the effort involved make it any different from a legal/moral standpoint?

Books are the obvious point here - there is nothing stopping you from buying a book, copying it out into a notebook, then selling or taking back the book. You've copied it. True, it would take ages and be utterly pointless, but it's the same thing as software piracy (the latter is merely much more efficiently achieved).

Theoretically if you read a book you've made a copy in your own head but I suppose that's the equivalent of a copy "for your own use"...

[Artinum]

Actually, if borrowing books or giving them away to people is legally/morally dubious, where do libraries stand?

[GBGames]

Actually, if borrowing books or giving them away to people is legally/morally dubious, where do libraries stand?

It isn't legally or morally dubious. The book is a fixed medium. Reselling the book isn't even illegal. Lending it to another person to read isn't illegal. On the other hand, making copies of the book's contents would be illegal. That is why the number of photocopies you can make in a library is restricted.

Learning how a car works isn't illegal. Stripping down a car you yourself own isn't illegal. Building a new one based on the knowledge you learned that was also covered by an existing patent is illegal because of the patent, not because of the "copying". The purpose of patents isn't to prevent people from building the same invention you created; the purpose of patents is so that society can benefit from the invention. The patent holder simply gets a temporary monopoly in exchange for filing instructions on how to build the invention. Once the patent expires, anyone is allowed to use those instructions to figure out how to build and use the invention.

Similarly, I can see taking a copy of Microsoft Windows that you no longer need and giving it to someone else without a moral problem. I'm no longer using it, the copy is already paid for, so I think I should be able to give the software to someone else. The EULA might say I can't do so, but I don't believe they should be able to restrict my right of first sale.

On the other hand, making a copy of Windows to give to someone else while I still use the original is copyright infringement. Legally and morally it is wrong because the idea is that there should only be one copy that I've paid for. Making the copy essentially made two copies when I only paid for one.

In the case of Cas' games, however, the agreement is different. If I pay for a copy that I can then share with family, making a copy isn't illegal or immoral.

As with any laws, copyright and patent laws don't dictate morality. They can change at any time, and it has changed a number of times over the course of the past century alone. Doing something illegally and feeling perfectly justified doesn't mean you gave yourself arbitrary morals; it just means that the law isn't matching up with morality.

Physical objects as property are different from "intellectual property". If I give you a physical object, you now have the object and I don't. If I give you an idea, we both now have the idea. Giving away physical objects doesn't change the number of physical objects in the world. Giving away ideas increases the number of people with ideas.

[princec]

Sound.

Cas :)