Right Mouse Button - OK for Casual?

[Phil Steinmeyer]

One game idea I'm kicking around would involve placing pieces on a board/grid. I'd like to include a 'rotate' button - probably either the right mouse button, the scroll wheel, or I'd allow you to use either. The game could be played without rotating pieces, but you'd be hobbled as a player.

Is it ok to map something fairly major like this to the right mouse button, or are casual game players trained to use only the mouse position and main (i.e. left) mouse button to control the game?

I know Zuma and ilk have used right mouse to switch the active ball with the secondary ball - which is useful in that game, but not quite as important as rotate would be in mine. Do other casual (highly-portal friendly) games map the right mouse button to important functions?

[Dominique Biesmans]

Do other casual (highly-portal friendly) games map the right mouse button to important functions?

Rocket Mania comes to mind.

[Christian]

Depends on how you design the game and its interface.

If the pieces are on a grid, and you could move the pieces with the left mouse button, then i think it would be intuitive to rotate the pieces also with the left mouse button, not moving the piece but holding it and rotating it in its place.

Imagine a casual game of boxing, left mouse button is for your left hand, and right button for your right one, can you get more intuitive than that?, probably not.

It depends a lot... it all depends in how intuitive is the design, in some games it works, in some other it doesnt.

I think that one of the challenges of a designer is to make the controls SIMPLE and INTUITIVE, specially for casual players.

[Anlino]

Whatever you choose - skip the scroll wheel. Some people don't have those, and i believe that it would be rather difficult using it.

BTW - Doesn't most Mac mouses only have one button (Though i don't know if you are aiming or mac's either)?

[Phil Steinmeyer]

Apple's had a 2 button mouse for about 6 months - I think it's standard now. Older Mac users mostly either bought OEM 2 button mouses, or are accustomed to using the command key in conjunction with the main mouse button to substitute for right click. I could always add a keyboard substitute on the Mac as well.

[electronicStar]

If you don't want to release for macs then it's fine to use the RMB.
I know a lot of seasoned mac users and they still use the one mouse button.

[simonh]

Rocket Mania comes to mind.
Rocket Mania is a one button game as far as I'm aware - you can use the right-mouse button, but it just performs the same function as the left mouse button.

Using the right mouse button for anything non-trivial is a no-no for casual games in my opinion.

[Savant]

I could always add a keyboard substitute on the Mac as well.
I did this for Dr.Germ. The space bar duplicates the functionality of the right mouse button.

[Ricardo Vladimiro]

One of the gameplays of the match-3 I'm making involves the use of 2 mouse buttons. Asked around, tested a bit, no one finds that odd or weird in any way. It does need to be well explained though and I find the casual player I spoke with took a couple of minutes to get used to it, so be sure that the gameplay doesn't depend exclusively on that. In my case, only later in the game that feature is introduced, so I expect that the use of the second mouse button is part of the learning curve of the game. Still I find it is a shot in the dark. Can be great, can be a fluke...

[Phil Steinmeyer]

Since pieces will only fit on my grid in 'valid' configurations, another possibility is to have pieces auto-rotate/snap to the grid to a valid position. This isn't a perfect solution either - it may be disorienting to some players, and in some cases there may be multiple valid configurations in close proximity - making it a bit tough for the user to specify the right location.

[Dominique Biesmans]

Rocket Mania is a one button game as far as I'm aware - you can use the right-mouse button, but it just performs the same function as the left mouse button.

Using the right mouse button for anything non-trivial is a no-no for casual games in my opinion.

Rocket Mania uses the right button for CCW rotation (left rotates CW), but it's not a good example indeed. (right button isnt essential)

isn't Astropop a two button game? (left grab, right pop) But Astropop wasn't a huge success I guess.

[Anlino]

Bubble Blitz uses the right mouse button to utilize the bomb powerup.

[Phil Steinmeyer]

I just noticed that Wordslinger uses RMB for rotation, and it is critical in that game.

[lakibuk]

The Inlay games have it too, if i am correct. Magic Inlay, Puzzle Inlay, Fiber Twig.

[DGuy]

My feeling is to use the RMB as a short-cut or hot-key for something that is also doable via the keyboard.

Ex. In a Zuma type game, you use a key-press to swap or rotate the available colored balls in order to select the one to shoot, but, if your coordinated/ dexterious enough (remember where talking about casual gamers) you could also do the swap/rotation using the RMB.

I would put the MMB/ scroll wheel to the same use: If available, they can be used as hot-keys for action normally performed using the keyboard.

[James C. Smith]

It would be even better if the RMB was a shortcut for something that is doable via the left mouse button (not the keyboard). For example, in BKR there is a net icon you can click on to turn your cursor into a net. You can access everything in the game with the left mouse button. (not keyboard and no RMB is needed). But you can use the RMB as a shortcut to clicking on the net icon.

In other words, what I am trying to say is to put clickable buttons on your UI that allow you do “rotate” or whatever the RMB is a shutout to. Saying that you can use the R key or the space bar to rotate as an alternative to the RMB is not a great solution.

The biggest problem with the RMB is not that people don’t have one. It is that they don’t know if/when/why they should use it. Or they get confused about when to use left and hen to use right. It is very intuitive to have many different things that can be clicked on. It is not intuitive to have many different ways to click on the same thing.

If you design a agme using the RMB or a key to rotate then you will have to make sure to have a tutorial that teach them this command. But of there is a big rotate button on the screen all the time during game play then you don’t have to teach them so much. The player will see that this option is there. The problem with a key or RMB commend is that it is invisable on screen.

Now obviously this does not work well in all games. In a shooter, have a UI button to click on for firing the secondary weapon is not a good choice. It would be better to have direct control with a keyboard or mouse button. But in a stereo typical “casual” game, where you use a mouse CURSOR to interact with things on the board, UI buttons work better than RMB and keys.

The more I think about it, I think the cursor is a key. In a game where your mouse directly controls a space ship or character (with no mouse cursor) then you may resort to using RMB and keyboard keys. But in a game where your mouse controls a cursor that manipulated objects on the board, the RBM should only be a shortcut for something that could be done with the LMB.

[lennard]

Hi Phil, if you are doing a game that could snap because the background implies correctness then you could also have multiple left mouse button clicks rotate until the piece is in correct rotation.

I did this for 50 Castles where the castle pieces sometimes have to be rotated before being dropped into place. I tried having the pieces automatically rotate themselves but the left click to rotate mechanic felt better.

[Grey Alien]

If the user doesn't read your instrunctions/pop up dialogs, they'll never realise that they have to use the rmb, this could be bad. Both buttons should do the same thing so left handed users (10%) can play your game too, imho.

[Escapist Games]

I have a friend at Oberon (who used to be at RealArcade) and he told me that they shy away from games that require use of the right mouse button. Their research shows that a lot of customers find it non-intuitive and that they just plain don't like to use it.

The game I was working on at the time used both buttons: left to select and right to "play". He frowned on that and strongly urged me to come up with a different interface.

Just FYI.

[Sol_HSA]

Apple's had a 2 button mouse for about 6 months - I think it's standard now. Older Mac users mostly either bought OEM 2 button mouses, or are accustomed to using the command key in conjunction with the main mouse button to substitute for right click. I could always add a keyboard substitute on the Mac as well.

Mac users upgrade much slower than pc users (since old mac hardware, unlike old pc hardware, tends to work), and even for pc users, 6 months is way too short time to call some change to have become "standard". Consider all the Windows98 users out there..

Additionally, even if macs come with a mighty mouse, it (as far as I know) works as a single-button mouse unless the user explicitly wants to use it in some other way.

Add to this the fact that mac laptops are still single-button, and most computers sold these days are laptops, I wouldn't say that more-than-one-button is "standard" on macs by any means. Unless, of course, you're targetting some high-end power-user niche =)

[Hamumu]

No, if you have a 2-button mouse on a mac, it works like on a PC - brings up context menus, etc. The support is there in the software (probably not all software, of course, but it's in the OS among other things). Just plug and play, it functions as a 2 button mouse if it is one.

[James C. Smith]

This is not a hardware issue. Even if all your users have a two button mouse, and an OS that supports it, it can still be a bad idea to require the use of the right button (or a keyboard key) to play your game. In most cases it is just not as intuitive as the alternative designs. The fact that Mac ship with two button mice doesn’t change much. Windows has shipped with 2 button mice for many years but you still don’t find many Windows casual games or many Windows apps that require the use of a right mouse button. They all just use it as a shortcut for things that can be done with the left mouse button.

[Phil Steinmeyer]

It's moot for me now - the concept I had that required rotation wasn't very fun in general.

But it sparked another idea for me that requires 0 buttons - just mouse movement. I think it's promising so far, and the best thing is, if it keeps working out, I'll have most of the gameplay done in about 2-3 days - at least to a solid "This is really fun" level. That's what I like about casual games :)

[soniCron]

But it sparked another idea for me that requires 0 buttons - just mouse movement. I think it's promising so far, and the best thing is, if it keeps working out, I'll have most of the gameplay done in about 2-3 days - at least to a solid "This is really fun" level. That's what I like about casual games :) I prototyped a no-button, mouse-movement game a few months ago and it was really solid. I'm curious what your approach is? Mine was sort of a match-three mouse avoider. After development of it, however, I discovered there really aren't many game mechanics that can be had with no-button controls. Pretty much all of them rely heavily on some form of mouse avoidance. I hope yours is more than a standard mouse-avoider! ;)

[Bmc]

I prototyped a no-button, mouse-movement game a few months ago and it was really solid. I'm curious what your approach is? Mine was sort of a match-three mouse avoider. After development of it, however, I discovered there really aren't many game mechanics that can be had with no-button controls. Pretty much all of them rely heavily on some form of mouse avoidance. I hope yours is more than a standard mouse-avoider! ;)

not sure what you quite mean by a mouse-avoidance mechanic, but there is Feeding Frenzy.

You don't really need to click any button to play it.

also there is a gamelab games called Loop

Iggle Pop is another I think, most breakout-styled games

[Phil Steinmeyer]

Yeah - I'm curious what a match-3 mouse avoider is, too.

Right now what I have is a clever mechanic, that I don't want to disclose. I can go a few ways with it, but I think it will end up being match-3, but about as different from standard Bejeweled-style match-3s as Zuma or Collapse were. And I'm not aware of anyone who's done anything like the mechanic I have in mind.

[soniCron]

The mouse-avoider mechanic simply functions with the rule that the player cannot allow the cursor to touch something "forbidden," be it walls, enemies, or whatever. Loop is a popular variation of this mechanic in which touching the wrong thing isn't immediately fatal, it just doesn't provide you with a match (still a negative result). The overarching challenge of the mouse-avoider is strictly dexterious. As far as I'm aware, Irritating Maze (arcade and PSX) was the first popularization of this mechanic in a virtual setting, though the ball maze toys (the ones with holes) have been around for hundreds of years. Breakout, Pong, tennis, etc. are popular variations of this ancient mechanic that are heavily dependent on temporal alignment, in addition to spacial alignment, (right place at the right time) but the mechanic is the same, nonetheless.

[Anthony Flack]

With regards to the Mighty Mouse - if you just plug it in to a mac, it operates as a regular two button mouse. However, if you actually install the Mighty Mouse driver software, both mouse buttons start out set to "left click" by default.

[Bouncer]

Casual gamers aren't zombies you know... I think they can actually learn to play even if it includes two mousebuttons... hopefully :)

I think this casual nonsense is getting out of hand... what next? People not knowing how to read anymore?

[Bmc]

Casual gamers aren't zombies you know... I think they can actually learn to play even if it includes two mousebuttons... hopefully :)

I think this casual nonsense is getting out of hand... what next? People not knowing how to read anymore?

you say that, but keep in mind these are the same people who aren't sure how a computer's file system works (and this is something that's modeled after the real world).

Comparing it to reading is pretty ridiculous btw.

[Bouncer]

It's not so ridiculous... I mean they hold this thing, which has 2 buttons, on their hands all the time! How can they not figure out to at least ocasionally press that second button, for just the hell of it, to see what happens?

This whole thing just sounds so ridiculous... I mean, most people know how to type using the keyboard, otherwise they couldn't even type your websites URL to download your game in the firstplace... So I bet that besides the second mousebutton, they can even learn to play using the keyboard!

[Savant]

Nevermind that people have been publishing casual games for years now and through experimentation and experience have determined that - no, they can't.

As for the typing in the URL thing, come on. We're talking about people who download the RealArcade client and never give it another thought. They aren't seeking out developer web sites.

[James C. Smith]

Casual gamers aren't zombies you know... I think they can actually learn to play even if it includes two mousebuttons... hopefully :)

If you only want to collect $20 from the "smart" people you are going to really limit your revenue sources. They don't want to learn. They want to play.

[James C. Smith]

It’s not a question of what is possible to learn. It is a question of what is easier to learn and what is easy to screw up. Sure, if they had to, everyone could learn to use the second button properly in your game. But are they going to bother to learn it before they get frustrated or board with your game and download the next free trial? They have no investment in your game. It took 30 seconds to download and was free. If they don’t get it right away they will just try the next one. Or if they do learn it, will they easily mess up and accidentally click the wrong button at the wrong time. BKW originally use the left button to highlight words and the right button to swap latter. Even after people “learned” this skill, they still would occasionally use the wrong one. I found myself using the wrong button at times. There is no obviously correct button to use for selecting vs. swapping so it was easy to forget which was left and which was right. When I changed BKW controls to use only one button is greatly reduced the number of mistakes players made.

If you were making a load runner game, and you wanted the LMB to drill left, and the RMB to drill right then that would be logical. Or some games use LMB to rotate left and RMB to rotate right. That is very logical and almost imposable to accidentally get confused. But if you use LRB to drop or select and RMB to rotate then you will find lots of player accidentally doing the wrong one. Some people enjoy tuning their skills and mastering control like this. Learning to not screw up is part of the game. But it is more fun to learn games rules than controls and the “casual” player would rather now have to learn either. They don’t want to master a skill. Thy just wan to have fun killing time.

Also, keep in mind that none of this is a rule saying what you can or can not do. Is it possible to make a successful casual game using two mouse button for two unrelated tasks? Yes! It can be done. Using two buttons is NOT a sure way to kill your games success potential. However, if you can come up with an alternative control scheme that doesn’t use two buttons, or an alternative game that doesn’t require multiple actions, then you would be more likely to be successful.

This whole thing just sounds so ridiculous

It would be ridicules to say that a two button game can’t success. But I don’t think it is ridicules at all to say they you are butter off avoiding a two button design.

[Bouncer]

I agree. The simpler the better, but if your game really requires using two buttons I don't think it's going to hinder your sales... though I don't have any personal experience in selling casual games, so it's just my uneducated guess.

It's just hard to swallow, that casual gamers are so "simple" as many of the posts around here suggest.... ;)

[Escapist Games]

It's just hard to swallow, that casual gamers are so "simple" as many of the posts around here suggest....

I don't think it's so much that casual gamers are "simple". It's just that the games are essentially free [to try] -- and they have a LOT of choices. So if they download a game and don't "get it" in the first minute or two, many will just shrug and download something else.

It's all about removing the "barriers to entry". The best casual games usually have fairly simple mechanics, intuitive controls, crisp graphics, and great tutorials.

[soniCron]

It's just hard to swallow, that casual gamers are so "simple" as many of the posts around here suggest.... ;) These are the same people who enter the URLs they want to visit into a search engine's search box.

[James C. Smith]

Or use AOL key words

[Kite65]

So if they download a game and don't "get it" in the first minute or two, many will just shrug and download something else.

It's all about removing the "barriers to entry". The best casual games usually have fairly simple mechanics, intuitive controls, crisp graphics, and great tutorials.

The thread has really got me thinking about changing the base mechanic of my game, even though it's almost finished. I want people to play it and hopefully pay for it rather than simply try to impose my view that using the RMB is easy.

However, if i can't think of a better mechanic, I may have to run with it. I wouldn't totally junk the game, just for this.

[electronicStar]

If you can't avoid using the RMB it's better to use a little visual indication before the game starts, like an icon showing the mouse with the LMB or RMB pressed and a text to indicate the action.

[Vorax]

All the Zuma clones use the right mouse button, and those seem to do ok ;)

[svero]

Yeah but none of the zuma type games actually require the right mouse button. I played zuma for a long time before even realizing the rmb had any use.

- S