The side-scroller: Outdated or underused?

[unreason]

I'm thinking of doing a side-scroller, probably one similar to a cross between metroid and contra. I notice that I don't see very many of these games in the more prominent indie game sites. Is this because they're not successful, or just because developers haven't been doing them lately? Is there a market for my game if it's well done, or would I be better off spending my time making something different?

[princec]

There have been a few lately.. Absolute Blue and Jets 'n' Guns spring to mind. They could do as well as any other game in theory.

Cas :)

[unreason]

True, but those were more a gradius style-side scroller, as opposed to a metroid type of thing. The only thing I can think of like that is Abuse, or Duke Nukem: Mathatten Project.

[nvision]

I love side-scrolling platformers...shooters, too, but moreso platformers. I think that well-made action platformers could sell just as well as any genre, provided that they've got quality gameplay and gfx.

If you're interested, I have the core gfx made for just such a game (main character, HUD/FX, one level of tiles/enemies). I produced them while working at my former company, but since they failed to pay me (bastards!), the gfx are still mine. If you'd like to discuss a possible collaboration, I'd love to get these graphics working they way they're supposed to. PM me if you want to talk further...

[GBGames]

Does Professor Fizzwizzle (http://www.gametunnel.com/gamespace.php?id=237&tab=3) count?

If not, there are still Alchemist Wizard (http://www.gametunnel.com/gamespace.php?id=12&tab=3) (why does my review make it seem like I can't spell platformer?), Bud Redhead: The Time Chase (http://www.gametunnel.com/gamespace.php?id=52&tab=3), Gish (http://www.gametunnel.com/gamespace.php?id=97&tab=3), Mage Bros (http://www.gametunnel.com/gamespace.php?id=125&tab=3), and Wik & the Fable of Souls (http://www.gametunnel.com/gamespace.php?id=218&tab=3).

Other platformers: http://www.gametunnel.com/review_nav.php?gen_c=6

You probably could ask the respective developers how well each game did compared to others they might have made.

[Dan MacDonald]

I'm working on one :)

[Ricardo C]

I would say "underused". A good side-scroller will always be very welcome indeed.

Hell, when the PSX and the Saturn came out I had little interest in either because the move to RT3D meant few old-school side-scrollers would be produced.

[impossible]

Cave Story (http://agtp.romhack.net/doukutsu.html) and N (http://www.harveycartel.org/metanet/n.html), both released last year, both freeware. Although N technically isn't a sidescroller (no scrolling.)

[Pyabo]

Definitely check out Cave Story. Great little game.

And I would definitely say UNDERUSED.

[PoV]

I'm working on one :)
Now I know all your secrets. Glad to hear you're up to something Dan. It seems I'm doing one as well.

Keith goes painting was an interesting little platformer for those looking for them.

[impossible]

The thing is, during 8-bit and 16-bit console gaming sidescrolling platformers were ridiculously overused. You still see a lot of them on mobile platforms (GBA, NDS, mobile phones, even PSP.) I'm sure that 10 years from now people will be saying the same thing about FPS games.

Also, I don't think sidescrollers were ever very popular on PC, mostly due to the lack of decent gamepad support. This is still a pretty big barrier, and will continue to be until a company like Dell starts shipping a standard (Xbox 360) gamepad with all of their home market computers.

[Anthony Flack]

I think it's a combination of tricky controls and the fact that they're quite involved games to make. But the game I'm making is sort of one anyway. I love them.


Hell, when the PSX and the Saturn came out I had little interest in either because the move to RT3D meant few old-school side-scrollers would be produced.

You might want to reconsider the Saturn - it's a 2d powerhouse, with plenty of great sprite games. Even the Playstation had a few funky platform games, like Skullmonkeys.

[Mike Wiering]

And I'm working on a system to (easily) create side scrollers :)

[electronicStar]

I think there is a potential market among the thirty something nostalgics.
I plan to do a sidescroller as one of my future projects.
The only thing you have to take care of is to implement modern, state of the art graphics and effects, what I mean is that it should look more like a neogeo game than a megadrive one(even better:atomiswave). And make sure the gameplay,progression and the controls aren't too hard either because people don't have the same patience nowadays, and a downloadable indie game should definitely not have the same difficulty than an arcade one ,or even a console one.

[PoV]

And I'm working on a system to (easily) create side scrollers :)
Doesn't everyone that makes one do that anyways? Or are there people out there that write games just to throw them away? ;)

[lexaloffle]

Sure, I do. Writing something in a way general and robust enough for other people to use is much harder, right? My development philosophy is to start with an elegant robust core and expand it with a large outer layer of extremely hacked up, un-reusable meatloaf. The idea is to finish the game just before it starts crumbling, to achieve the optimum compromise between quality and development time.

Despite my sophisticated approach, I've still spent a long time working on my current platform game. It has 21 levels, and I could easily spend a couple of weeks refining the code which is particular to each level. So, yes, development time is a big factor.

I can't believe there isn't a decent audience for platform games though - portal unfriendly controls and all. If someone came up with a nice simple platform game with proper action (none of this casual-platformer fluff), I would buy it in a second. And there must be people out there like me. That's what I keep telling myself, anyway.

[papillon]

Side-scrolling beat-em-up, not too difficult, not too complex controls = Dad'n'Me.

unlike the alien game that was insanely hard, that one is pretty easy to pick up and experiment with. It's psychotic and evil, but it's easy to play, and popular! :)

[djdolber]

Im working on a 2D vertical/horisontal scroller. Ive always been asking myself why nobody makes 2d platformers now-adays. Just think of the possibilities with the new consoles for example. Just think, a new Castlevania:SOTN or Super Metroid... I hate it how everybody goes for 3D... :(

Super Metroid > Metroid Prime

[unreason]

Thanks for the offer or graphics, nvision, but I already have some artwork, and I'm probably doing this as a solo project.

Based on everyones replies, I guess there is a demand if the game's done right. A side scroller it is, then!

[Mike Wiering]

Doesn't everyone that makes one do that anyways? Or are there people out there that write games just to throw them away? ;) It's actually a kind of game maker for platform games / side scrollers.

[jankoM]

Mike W. , when will you make it available..? I am planing some simple platformer in near future and I would check something like that out before coding it from scratch.

[Anthony Flack]

And there must be people out there like me.

Well, there's always your identical twin brother, right?

Based on everyones replies, I guess there is a demand if the game's done right. A side scroller it is, then!

Excellent! Good luck.

[Mike Wiering]

Mike W. , when will you make it available..? I am planing some simple platformer in near future and I would check something like that out before coding it from scratch. I hope to have it ready by the summer, but it's been much more work than I thought at first, so I don't know really.

But here is a tiny version of CHARLIE THE DUCK made in it: run executable directly (http://www.wieringsoftware.nl/gs/demo.exe) (not sure if that works everywhere) or zip file (http://www.wieringsoftware.nl/gs/demo.zip) (separate exe and data file). Walk with left / right arrow keys, jump with space bar.

If you use Tile Studio (http://tilestudio.sourceforge.net/) for graphics, you will (fairly) easily be able to import them when the program is finished. See the example projects (http://tilestudio.sourceforge.net/examples.zip) for how to set things up (also contains Charlie.tsp, which I used in the demo above).

[GBGames]

Side-scrolling beat-em-up, not too difficult, not too complex controls = Dad'n'Me.

unlike the alien game that was insanely hard, that one is pretty easy to pick up and experiment with. It's psychotic and evil, but it's easy to play, and popular! :)

Dad'n'Me was a great game, but Alien Hominid was great when I played it on a console. It just seems to play better when you're using a controller as opposed to the keyboard. Then again, I didn't play it much on the computer, so I probably could have gotten used to it.

[whisperstorm]

Wierd, I too am working on a side-scroller - more akin to Eternal Daughter meets Megaman type thing with rpg elements but alot of shooting. Imagine something like this:
http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/techwin/data/contents/atulado/
(download demo: http://home.dlsite.com/work/=/product_id/RJ014595.html )

I think games like this are awesomely fun - its good to hear that more folks are working on games in this genre.

[Uhfgood]

Try http://gamedev.sourceforge.net/

Although I don't know if i'd use it in a finished app.

In any case i'm making a platformer as well, but with a little different take... stay tuned ;-)

Keith

[Leper]

Has anyone mentioned Gradius V yet?

check out these awesome videos of a NEW sidescroller shooter:
http://media.ps2.ign.com/media/498/498344/vids_1.html


Also, I'm hosting a contest filled with lots of hot prizes right now over at www.shmup-dev.com that is revolving around horizontal shmups!

Also, I think Metal slug was an extremely popular recent side-scroller shooter that is like "contra"

[Anlino]

I am positive, and believe that it is an underused market. Side scrollers like Abuse are wonderful to play (and Duke Nukem manhattan project rocked!), and i am sure that a game like that could sell. (The saturn, wasn't that the huge handheld from Sony?)

[jankoM]

Mike W. : Charlie example runs too fast to controll on my computer. ((Btw. your charlie 2 is one of few really the best nonviolent platformers IMO. And one of rare indie games my two nieces know by name.)) I will try to play with TileStudio a little, I wasn't aware you made it. Please notify us here (or better just me ;) ) where platform maker is ready.

[Anthony Flack]

(The saturn, wasn't that the huge handheld from Sony?)

Nope, huge TV console from Sega. Competitor to the Playstation (the Playstation won, obviously - Sega lost a massive fortune and were financially broken).

It's a CD-based system, and although its 3d capabilities weren't quite up there with the Playstation, it had superior 2d capabilities (it has no problem handling graphically intensive sprite games like Metal Slug and Vampire Savior).

It's home to lots of fantastic games, including very good ports of tons and tons of Sega arcade games, from oldies like Outrun and Space Harrier to then-current games like Virtua Cop and Sega Rally, legendary Treasure games like Guardian Heroes and Radiant Silvergun, excellent original games like NiGHTS into Dreams, and a version of Bomberman that you can play with 10 people.

[ManuelFLara]

It's home to lots of fantastic games, including very good ports of tons and tons of Sega arcade games, from oldies like Outrun and Space Harrier to then-current games like Virtua Cop and Sega Rally, legendary Treasure games like Guardian Heroes and Radiant Silvergun, excellent original games like NiGHTS into Dreams, and a version of Bomberman that you can play with 10 people.
IIRC now classic sagas like Tomb Raider or Resident Evil were started on the Saturn and of course were exclusive titles. Although I must say my favorite Saturn game was Baku Baku Animals, a Tetris-like game with a highly addictive two player competitive mode. Addictive like crack, guys. I found a version for PC a while ago but it works on 256 colors screen mode and XP doesn't allow me to set that anymore (although may be the screen or gfx card).

[Anlino]

Oh, ok. I had for some reason an image of the Lynx (27 centimeters wide) from Atari in my mind... :rolleyes:

[Mike Wiering]

Mike W. : Charlie example runs too fast to controll on my computer. ((Btw. your charlie 2 is one of few really the best nonviolent platformers IMO. And one of rare indie games my two nieces know by name.)) I will try to play with TileStudio a little, I wasn't aware you made it. Please notify us here (or better just me ;) ) where platform maker is ready. Thanks! Actually, I've only been testing it here at home so far. Perhaps pressing F5 helps (timed mode)? Otherwise try full screen mode, Alt+Enter.

[electronicStar]

Oh, ok. I had for some reason an image of the Lynx (27 centimeters wide) from Atari in my mind... :rolleyes:
Maybe you were confusing with another SEGA handheld which bore a planet name too (I can't remember the name)

[Chris Evans]

I love my Sega Saturn.

Anyway, just be aware that portals aren't too crazy about platformers. They rarely accept them and the ones they do accept typically have limited success.

I'm not trying to stop you from making a side-scroller (I personally would love to see more). But you should plan on trying to maximize your direct sales and affiliates because that's where the majority of your sales will come from.

[Grey Alien]

I love side-scrollers too. Cave Story is a really neat game, esp. for free!

My Iron Fist is a side-scroller but I aborted it when I realised that the market is thirty something nostalgics who never actually buy games anyway. See you lot say you like this sort of game but you won't actaully pay for it. I'd love to finish it off with proper graphics and more gameplay elements but it may just not be worth it.

[princec]

I would... but only if I can get a whole game played in under 10 minutes. That's the critical factor for me now - I can't afford the time, not the cash. So you've got to concentrate a lot of fun inside 10 minutes!

Cas :)

[electronicStar]

I'd buy it! I'd buy cave story if it wasn't free.

[Dan MacDonald]

I love side-scrollers too. Cave Story is a really neat game, esp. for free!

My Iron Fist is a side-scroller but I aborted it when I realised that the market is thirty something nostalgics who never actually buy games anyway. See you lot say you like this sort of game but you won't actaully pay for it. I'd love to finish it off with proper graphics and more gameplay elements but it may just not be worth it.

I have a feeling i'm going to get flamed for this, but why abandon something just because you don't think there's a market for it? If everyone had this additude computer games as we know them probably wouldn't exsist. The guy who made space war for super computers back in the 70's probably wasn't too concerned about the potential market. It was a product of his passion for computers and for games. I think it's perfectly "worth it" to finish a game on the merit that you enjoy coding it and would enjoy playing it.

I would suspect that's why we dont see many side scrollers, no one thinks their "worth it" to make them anymore :(

[Ricardo C]

I have a feeling i'm going to get flamed for this, but why abandon something just because you don't think there's a market for it?

Because he'd like to eat and pay his bills?

There, now you have a perfect opening to go on about entepreneurs vs. true indies again :rolleyes:

EDIT: And to add something and not have this post be just an empty flame, I will say this: I can't imagine a worse situation than working a full 9-5 job, and then giving up my free time to my indie projects, which you seem to advocate. I love making games. I really do. But I love many other things too, and I'd like to have time to enjoy those as well. And this is speaking as a single guy engaged to be married but with no plans to have kids for the next few years. My concept of ideal is finding a way to have my gaming pursuits work for me, financially speaking, so that I may fulfill my household obligations doing something I love, and reclaiming my free time in the process. Obviously, everyone's mileage will vary.

[soniCron]

Normally, I would flame you for some of those comments ("...why abandon something just because you don't think there's a market for it?"), but I won't, because you're right. (Although, Space War was more of a technical experiment than a passion for gaming.)

Frankly, there's a huge market for many things that haven't even been thought up before, and an equally large market for things that have since been abandoned. Somewhere along the line (likely caused by the real-time 3D explosion), people decided there were too many platformers and quit making them. This sends the message that it's not possible at all to market a platformer, even though many of the past variables were only temporary. (Over-population, 3D infatuation, etc.)

On the other hand, it's somewhat like the FPS connundrum. Why bother making one if you can't go all the way: 100 levels, 4 secrets in each level, multiple goals in each level, non-linear gameplay, etc. The truth is, it takes a lot of effort to make a solid platformer, and unless you're doing it posterity's sake, it's financially very risky. Sure, Gish did alright, but it also had a hugely unique catch -- and frankly, I don't think it measures up to be one hundredth what Donkey Kong Country was.

Anyone can make anything they want in their spare time, but since these are business oriented forums, I think the real question is: Can I make money if I make a platformer? And the answer: It's risky, because there are a huge number of unknowns and the development time will be long, but it's certainly possible. If you're just wanting to do it as a hobby (as Dan seems to be suggesting), then try out Lunar Magic (http://fusoya.panicus.org/lm/), a level editor for Super Mario World. You won't even have to write your own engine! :)

[Ricardo C]

Incidentally, I do believe there's a market for side scrollers. Those thirty somethings that don't buy games? Maybe they don't buy them because no one's making something that appeals to them anymore. Maybe, just maybe, just as there are film fans who ocus on films from a certain genre or time period, there's a huge untapped market of nostalgic 80s and early 90s gamers who would love to get back the feel of the golden age of gaming. Niches are everywhere, it's stumbling upon them that's hard.

[Reanimated]

Ive been working on a side scroller too. It is a lot of hard work, but it's a lot of fun at the same time. I also believe theres a market, because if you can still sell arkanoid clones, then Im sure there are people willing to buy side scrollers.

[soniCron]

I don't follow your logic.

[Reanimated]

Well, the market your aiming at with arkanoid clones are certainly the older generation, which I believe is the same as side-scrollers. Although side-scrollers may be a bit more "involved", there must be people still out there willing to purchase them especially since its not a saturated market.

edit: In this day and age, if you were to tell a non-indie that you were planning to sell an arkanoid clone, they probably wouldnt think it would sell. However, this had been disproved, so surely the same case could be applied to side scrollers. Its not 100% concrete evidence, but I think that there is a high chance.

[soniCron]

I think you're lumping things together. The "older generation" as a market is an imagined reality. Just as there are different markets now, there were different markets then. Somebody who likes Halo now may not like Bejewelled; somebody who liked Pac Man then may not have liked Donkey Kong. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that's not logic I'd put my money on -- you have no quantifiable evidence that those markets largely overlap.

[Reanimated]

Fair enough, I agree that I dont have evidence that I could just show and say "see", but I just have a feeling that there is still a market out there. As long as the game is good, and gets the right exposure, it could start more side-scrolling games to follow. I guess at the moment its just a case of seeing by creating a game and see how it goes. Games like alien hominid did the same, and although it didnt make as much money as AAA games, it still did quite well considering their budget.

[Dan MacDonald]

Because he'd like to eat and pay his bills?

There, now you have a perfect opening to go on about entepreneurs vs. true indies again :rolleyes:

EDIT: And to add something and not have this post be just an empty flame, I will say this: I can't imagine a worse situation than working a full 9-5 job, and then giving up my free time to my indie projects, which you seem to advocate. I love making games. I really do. But I love many other things too, and I'd like to have time to enjoy those as well. And this is speaking as a single guy engaged to be married but with no plans to have kids for the next few years. My concept of ideal is finding a way to have my gaming pursuits work for me, financially speaking, so that I may fulfill my household obligations doing something I love, and reclaiming my free time in the process. Obviously, everyone's mileage will vary.

In the old days I wouldn't respond to direct conflicts of opinion. In most cases it just validates the opposing opinion. I guess I've gotten a little more pragmatic as of late. It's not as important to me as it once was to have popular opinion on my side.

The majority of indies who start out work a 9 to 5 and then give up all their free time to make a game that will be profitable enough to free them from their 9 to 5 for all of your above reasons. I don't have any problem with this, I think game development in the casual space can be a profitable venture.

Notice, I say casual space because this is invariably where the would be full time indie ends up. The casual downloadable industry is clearly the low hanging fruit for profitable downloadable games. Short development cycles, simple mechanics and a consumer base with a pr oven record of buying the same game over and over in different colors. It appeals to the would be full time indie in the same way it appeals to the large industry type companies targeting the casual downloadable space.

The would be indie takes his desire for freedom from "the man" and the promise of self employment and leverages it for motivation to work on a game he really wouldn't play if given the choice. But make no mistake this is the passion of entrepenurialism or profit is not the same as the passion for game development. It can be harnessed and channeled into motivation to finish games but it isn't the same experience.

So what is the result of the would be fulltime indie who knocks off a profitable casual clone? well not only did they blow all their post 9-5 free time working on on a game that really isn't worth talking about other then as a product they've no locked themselves into doing it full time. At first the novelty of working out of your dining room or extra bedroom wears off. You'll realize that you are spending all your time performing a function that really doesn't interest you. I know from personal experience, I worked from home full time making over six figures a year on games that really didn't inspire me. The conclusion? you can only kid yourself so long eventually not even the money is motivation enough to work on games that initially you are apathetic about and eventually you disgust.

So what is the alternative? instead of spending you free time on a game product that may or may not be profitable. Work at a slower pace, enjoy your work, pick a game that you know you can complete and that inspires you to work on it. Those who are full time indies no longer really have this luxury, the MUST have an ROI on their time invested so they have to pick games that have the highest probability of being profitable. If they don't, they lose their livelyhood and fail to make their mortgages. But for those with a fulll time job that pays the bills, there's another option. Make something your passionate about, sure the risks are higher. Sometimes there's no pre-exsisting market justification for the game. Sometimes these games are released and then flop, but every now and then there are break out successes. Runescape was founded by one guy working along to make a browser based MMORPG now has 50 employees and makes 2M a month.

I don't have any numbers for soldat a multiplayer sidescroller that borrows a lot from games like counter strike, but they have a critical mass around that game with hunders of servers and games going on at any time of the day. The risks to passionate development are higher when you approach it from a monetary standpoint, although the payoff can be huge. The risks are also mitigated by the fact that if you fail to achieve profitability from your time invested making a game, it's not the end of the world. You still have a game you love and with any luck a small community of people who love it too.

I doubt the creators of alien shooter considered the downloadable market too seriously before embarking on development of that game. But they now make bankers wages from a game they enjoy. Subsequently they tried to make a casual game that flopped and returned to make a sequel to alien shooter which I'm sure will fare much better for them.

Can you make a business plan around passionate game development? no not really, but there are almost no downsides to spend your time doing something you love and working on something that inspires you and if traditional wisdom has any weight following your passion is the best way to be successful.

[svero]

Short development cycles, simple mechanics and a consumer base with a pr oven record of buying the same game over and over in different colors.

I wouldn't characterize casual games as an easy-out for getting money money though. The dev cycles aren't really that short for most of the better titles, and it's highly competitive, and even the most successful companies targeting this audience have their share of misses. We tend to focus on the few clones that were developed quickly and succeeded and ignore the huge mass of me-too games that fell by the wayside.

[soniCron]

Dan, you are an administrator. Please make a good example of your authority: Stop derailing threads to talk about the indie ideal. The original post was fine, but you're not talking about platformers anymore. Please try to stay on track.

[Ricardo C]

But make no mistake this is the passion of entrepenurialism or profit is not the same as the passion for game development. It can be harnessed and channeled into motivation to finish games but it isn't the same experience.

So according to you, there's only romanticized starving artists and predatory casual cloners?

[Dan MacDonald]

Steve you and I both know that to create an origional hit casual game is actually and impressive accomplishment. Unfortunatly that's not the pattern I observe. The pattern I observe is that there are a handful of developers on these forums that invest themselves in making origional casual games and then a slew of developers who rip off (or aspire to) their origional ideas, re-skin them and make a profit. Sure it's not the revenue that the origional title brings in, but it's enough to fund them onto their next game.

[Dan MacDonald]

I don't paint the world in absolutes, I also do not have any problem with people pursuing game development as a business. I would consider myself friends with a number of the full time independent developers in this community. I have gobs of respect for what they do, especially because the ones I know value game design and still make an effort to do their own. Casual downloadable games are a competitive space and like retail only the top fractional % really make money. I realize that when your business is games you have an imperative to make games that sell.

When the question comes up, are sidescrollers underused or outdated? The implication is that the answer to the question is a purely monetary one. Maybe that's what the original poster wanted to know, the question that so many people ask (and the reason why people so often end up in casual games) "will I make money if I do this?"

I posted to suggest that the question doesn't have to be that simple, it's obvious that the OP has an interest in sidescrollers and was looking to justify making one. I submit that the justification be his own enjoyment of the genre and not just a market justification.

I'm not sure why when I advocate my opinion I feel like a pro life advocate speaking to a pro choice convention or visa versa. People need to lighten up accept that other people will have opinions that contradict their own. It's not the end of the world, it's just life on planet earth.

[Ricardo C]

The paragraph I quoted sounds pretty absolutist to me. You present a false dichotomy: You are either doing it for the love of the art, or you're doing it for the money.

[Dan MacDonald]

I don't see how that presents a false dichotomy, it's merely differentiating between two types of passion. I don't claim that the two are mutually exclusive. As I said full time indies pay homage to both types of passion both for their businesses and for games by developing games that actually involve some design work of their own.

I had one full time developer say to me "I want to make gobs of money and I want to create original games". I think he has it right, but I also think there are a lot of people drinking their own kool aid. Going out trying to find the quickest and easiest way to make money in casual games and confusing their passion for starting a business with passion for game development.

[soniCron]

When the question comes up, are sidescrollers underused or outdated? The implication is that the answer to the question is a purely monetary one...I posted to suggest that the question doesn't have to be that simple... Is this, or is this not, a business oriented website?

[Ricardo C]

I don't see how that presents a false dichotomy, it's merely differentiating between two types of passion.

You're using your personal biases to establish the alleged differences between those two "passions" (also defined by you and you alone), and then you proceed pass a blanket judgement on every so-called indie out there.

I don't claim that the two are mutually exclusive. As I said full time indies pay homage to both types of passion both for their businesses and for games by developing games that actually involve some design work of their own.

Actually, what you said was a lot less kind than that.

I had one full time developer say to me "I want to make gobs of money and I want to create original games". I think he has it right, but I also think there are a lot of people drinking their own kool aid.

That sword cuts both ways, I hope you know.

Going out trying to find the quickest and easiest way to make money in casual games and confusing their passion for starting a business with passion for game development.

But see, this discussion didn't start out as being about casual games. You created a strawman scenario in which the "enteprenurial" indie invariably ends up knocking out clone after clone of this or that casual hit, and there's no other path to take ("I say casual space because this is invariably where the would be full time indie ends up").

Further, you go on to imply that anyone working on such a game is doing so against his creative instincts and would never work or even play that type of game were he not in it for the money ("The would be indie takes his desire for freedom from "the man" and the promise of self employment and leverages it for motivation to work on a game he really wouldn't play if given the choice").

I think you've drank the Kool-aid too, Dan. That's why you have such a hard-on for marking your territory and constantly reminding the rest of us who is a true indie and who is not ("But make no mistake this is the passion of entrepenurialism or profit is not the same as the passion for game development. It can be harnessed and channeled into motivation to finish games but it isn't the same experience.")

[svero]

Steve you and I both know that to create an origional hit casual game is actually and impressive accomplishment. Unfortunatly that's not the pattern I observe.

I'd include the simplest reskins in my list of games that aren't necessarily an easy buck. I wasn't talking only about original titles. There are plenty of clones that are pretty blatent copies that fail sales wise and were probably still a lot of hard work to make.

[jankoM]

Is now really any thread about anything going to be about indie and passion and enterpreteur? Can you guys open your thread and fight there endlesly (and i might join from time to time)? I have some free space so I can open entire forum for you (and that bad Retro64 won't lock you down again and again).. I am not joking.

[Teq]

Hmmm, think that every genre has its place and its our job as indies to throw caution to the wind and make them more than just a fading memory, its not like the big money factory's are going too :)

[Chris Evans]

Well speaking as someone who's actually made a platformer recently...

... I think they're one of the toughest games that's in the range of Indies to do. If you noticed (or probably haven't), this thread is over 3 pages long and is about platformers, yet no one has mentioned my game Pow Pow's Great Adventure even though it's one of the few platformers that's actually come out recently. I may be disappointed but platformers are tough to get right and my game definitely had its fair share of miscues.

I've found some loyal customers but the game hasn't attracted "Retro" gamers in large numbers. You can't lump BreakOut and Platformers into the same pot. For starters, it's not hard to make a modern breakout game that's superior to the 15-20 year-old breakout games. Whereas how many Indie side-scrollers/platformers have you seen that actually exceed Super Mario Bros, Sonic, Donkey Kong Country and etc? Even today, it's extremely tough for an Indie to top the older platformers. I've yet to see it done. Here's why:

- Platformers have very high art requirements. People have gotten used to seeing the same environment for just 2-3 stages, then they want to see something new. So you have to create a lot of varied environments. Then of course you'll need art for all the various enemies. If you don't have enough enemies people will complain that it's repetitive. Then you need art for all the Bosses even if the majority of the players only get through 30-40% of the game. Finally, don't forget the main character! The main character has to have enough animations to project a personality and perform a variety of special moves/functions.

- Top tier platformers are also expected to have tons of hidden secrets and collectible items. Whether it's spelling out letters, finding hidden emblems, accessing invisible blocks or all the above. Retro gamers expect to have tons of Easter eggs in their platformers. The pay off can't just be an extra life or "continue", they want a worthy reward for their effort.

- No matter what, you'll ultimately be compared to Mario or Sonic. If your character doesn't control as good as them (even though you're stuck with keyboard controls), people will complain. No matter what you do, a keyboard just won't be as fluid as a gamepad. This means even if your game looks better, the controls will always be inferior to the older console classics.

- Platformers are a huge excercise in game design, more-so than a lot of genres. If you're dealing with a limited art budget, then the game design is even more challenging because you have make your limited resources seem not so repetitive. Repetitiveness is the arch-nemesis of platformers, but unfortunately it's hard to avoid. You either have a sweet but short game, or you have a long but repetitive game. You either run out of level design ideas or you run out of an art budget.

This doesn't mean people won't enjoy your game. But in terms of getting "Retro" gamers to actually pay money for your platformer in large numbers, you have to be able to equal or exceed the platformers of old otherwise they'll just fire up an emulator. I've seen a lot of freeware platformers do well, but very few shareware platformers.

I guess going with a unique concept could work possibly. It seems to have worked for Gish. With that said, I still think Gish is quite inferior to most console platformers. They got the "hidden extras" right, but the enemies are severely limited, the visuals are very drab, the sound is almost non-existent, and as unique as it is the controls need tightening up.

With "physics" being a buzz word these days I think that's why they've gotten tons of press. Which is good since it at least keeps platformers on the map. But to be honest, I don't know how well it's translated into sales. It's only available through the Chronic Logic website and Garage Games and I haven't heard any statements about their sales. With the amount of press they've gotten, I hope they're doing well though.

I enjoyed Gold Miner Joe, but that was really a "lite" platformer, not something on the scale of the old console side-scrollers. Also, the fact that Arcade Lab has abandoned platformers and are now primarily focused on breakout games and Match 3s should tell you something. Same deal with Wik and Reflexive.

If anything I'm looking forward to Anthony's Cletus (like the rest of the Indie world). Even if he doesn't have the content to match the old console platformers, I think his visual style will get him enough attention. Also I think it's a good thing Anthony is taking his time to complete the game. Maybe he'll take the time to flesh out the areas where all the other PC platformers have failed before it.

But again platformers are tough to make, the fact that he's been working on it for over 3(?) years now should be a warning sign for others attempting a quality platformer. Yes he has a "day" job and a kid, but unless you're working as a full-time Indie, you'll probably run into similar obstacles.

Wow, I just realize this post came off as very bitter. :) That wasn't my intent. But ignoring the casual game-space completely (notice I didn't bring up casual games once in my post) I still think computer platformers just aren't that viable these days for Indies. Unlike side-scroller shooters, platformer controls never feel right with a keyboard/mouse. Unlike breakout games, it's not easy to surpass the older classics. You'll be at a high risk due to the long development schedule and high art requirements.

I had a blast making Pow Pow's Great Adventure. I really love platformers. But I won't be doing another large-scale platformer again in the foreseeable future. There's just too many obstacles and even if you get everything right, I'm not sure there's a big enough market for it unless you "casual-lize" the game in some way or have some kind of gimmick. Though I may do a small free web game platformer one day. Free online gamers tend to be more tolerant with keyboard controls and more open to experimentation. After all, the game is free...

[Uhfgood]

To bring this back, what people have pointed out is unreason, you really have told us your intent. Do you wish to make money from it, do you wish to do it just so people could play it. Either way I think what you need to do is just make it, and worry about whether it has a market after. Note i'm not saying don't worry about marketing yet or how you're going to get the word out. But I think those that are successful are those that make it successful. Those that didn't give up when they were almost done and said "good enough". But rather those who said "Okay what did I do wrong here" and then worked on optimizing it's selling potential.

By the way I want Hypno-Joe to use the 3d platforms like Pow Pow did. Chris, Seth Robinson pointed me in the direction of PowPow because it does sort of what I want to do. However I only played it for a few minutes because the pda is too much to do, the controls are odd, and I just didn't get all of what I was supposed to do.

I realize Anthony is taking his time doing Cletus and that's been about 3 years but that isn't going to stop me from trying to do mine in just 1 :-) In fact I may not get through very much of the game but i'm going to attempt it. I'm also going to be working my butt off. But i'm also going to attempt an 8 hour work day. However most of the 8 hour day will be programming related rather than the other game work such as art and so on. I hope to optimize my time to do this extra work outside of the normal "work day". In any case i've turned this message into my own banner and I didn't mean to...

So I say again "unreason" just do it and market the crap out of it afterwards.

Keith

[Dan MacDonald]

See Chris is a good moderator, one of the best really. Me I guess I'm just a naughty admin. I honestly don't feel out of line though, my intentions are good. I speak from my own experience as someone who worked on a game for 5 years trying to target a market I didn't relate to. I understood it just fine, the mechanics, the demographics the everything. After a while I just didn't care, I tried to shift the project in a new direction to follow my own preferences. It wasn't enough, to little too late i guess. I started the code in my 2nd year of a CS degree. 5 years of industry experience later and I just can't stand to work with it anymore.

I did release a semi casual game, Little Soldiers that did quite well in a few web channels. I didn't promote it extensively however because I didn't think it was finished to my standards. And while is spent a lot of time refining the design and improving the game, in the end it wasn't really gameplay that I would spend hours playing. Some do, I don't, the game still sells a few copies each month from the phelios site.

I worked for a year making mobile games, making tons of money, but in the end I realised that the task I was performing was not one I even cared about. The games were clearly products cranked out on a break neck schedule to meet the demands of pushy carriers. No one really cared about the games that much, licensed properties, hunting games. The whole thing was empty, pointless, devoid of any creativity really. I realized that the one thing that had been my inspiration my passion since I first started programming was gone. I didn't like game development anymore. So I quit the job.

It took months before I could even look at line of game code in my free time. Before I could put in 30-40 hrs a week outside of my 9-5 job without any motivation problems. I'm only just now starting to rediscover my passion for game development.

Am I so wrong? So wrong to advocate that others follow their passion for game development? Was bejewled really what motivated you to take computer science classes and teach yourself how to make games? Or was it something else, some experience that so moved you some time in your childhood or early teens that motivated you to pursue this profession? I do not think I am extreme in saying that the thing that inspired us to pursue this profession is the thing that should continue to motivate us.

I don't want people to spend 5 years working on games that will enable them to go full time. I spent a lot of time on that kool aid and my current opinion is informed and shaped by my experience not my ideals. Or perhaps my ideals are informed by my experience. In any respect I post my opinion out of an honest concern, not a desire to divide or dichotomize.

I really don't care who gets the label independent, I define it one way others define it other ways. The one thing that I know is true of independent game development is that we have the freedom to pursue or passion, a freedom and a luxury few employed game developers enjoy. Am I so wrong to advocate pursuing it?

So when someone asks "Can I make money with this game?" I respond, "does it matter? Just do it because you want to" and I get people jumping down my throat for derailing threads and ostracizing those with entrepeneural intentions. Sure I don't respect games that are blatent clones of other games, derivative is one thing, a blatent copy is another. Regardless of how much skill it may or may not require to make a good copy. I don't attack anyone personally for their games, I understand the motivation to clone I just have an opposing opinion.

[Teq]

I had a blast making Pow Pow's Great Adventure. I really love platformers. But I won't be doing another large-scale platformer again in the foreseeable future. There's just too many obstacles and even if you get everything right, I'm not sure there's a big enough market for it unless you "casual-lize" the game in some way or have some kind of gimmick. Though I may do a small free web game platformer one day. Free online gamers tend to be more tolerant with keyboard controls and more open to experimentation. After all, the game is free...

The name put me off playing it :( Might be worth a reskin/rebranding to gauge if this was a problem? Maybe I'm in the minority and just grumpy :p

[soniCron]

See Chris is a good moderator, one of the best really. Me I guess I'm just a naughty admin. Since we're being naughty, I'll respond:

What are you doing now? For a living?

Because, there is a whole range of things that I could be doing. But I'd so much rather make games -- even if my heart isn't in a few of the projects, at start.

It's this, or wear a tie and make sure I pick up some Starbucks on the way to the office. And I don't want that.

And, for some reason, you are saying that what I'm doing is wrong -- my approach is contrary to "the dream"...even if that dream can become a reality in the future, as a result of the hard work I put in now. Why is what I'm doing not legitimate enough to call myself an "indie."

[Mark Fassett]

Since we're being naughty, I'll respond:

What are you doing now? For a living?

Because, there is a whole range of things that I could be doing. But I'd so much rather make games -- even if my heart isn't in a few of the projects, at start.

It's this, or wear a tie and make sure I pick up some Starbucks on the way to the office. And I don't want that.

And, for some reason, you are saying that what I'm doing is wrong -- my approach is contrary to "the dream"...even if that dream can become a reality in the future, as a result of the hard work I put in now. Why is what I'm doing not legitimate enough to call myself an "indie."

Well - I thought Dan pretty much explained his position in his post. But at the risk of bringing the wrath of Dan down on my head, I'll try to put words in his mouth.

He's NOT saying you're doing it wrong. He's saying that, in his experience, doing it that way doesn't work, or at least, it didn't for him (and it didn't for Pyrogon, either), and he doesn't want to see people going down that path. The vast majority of people here aren't going to succeed at making a long term, successful career out of indie game development. Why make games you don't like if there's a high chance you're going to fail at it?

He's saying, in effect, to the OP - if you want to make a sidescroller - go ahead and make it. Don't worry about the money part of it because, in his eyes, it's better to make a little money doing what you like, than make alot of money doing something where you feel like you sold your soul.

In the end, the world is a better place, I think, if people follow their dreams instead of the money.

[Dan MacDonald]

Why is what I'm doing not legitimate enough to call myself an "indie."

Hmmm, unless your working for E.A. or under contract to some other 3rd party to make your game I'd say your indie. That's not really the point i'm trying to make.

I'd just rather not see people spend countless hours of time and energy on something "built to sell" and then only have it sell 3-5 copies a month. Which in all honesty is what the vast majority of the new indie developers will see if they even manage to finish a game. So now you've released a game that sell's 3 to 5 a day (not a financial success), you've lost time and lost your motivation all for a game that didn't achieve what you wanted it to.

If you shift your desire from the goal of making money to the goal of making a game you appreciate then you can't help but be successful if you complete it.


(for a day job, I work for a company that provides custom software solutions for business customers, typically workflow solutions that automate improved processes. I find it fairly interesting, I work with a few good friends from college and every few months I get to go to a new customer and learn about a new business or industry I knew nothing about prior and then help design and develop a solution for them. It doesn't pay quite as well as the mobile games does but still enough for my wife to comfortably stay home and be with our 3 kids. The best part is when I get home I still have plenty of energy for working on game development problems since I've been focusing on workflow problems all day)

Honestly sonicron, consider your own circumstance, you've been working on that casual game for so long it will have to be a massive hit to be "profitable" and provide a return on the time invested. I mean, even after it's been selling for a year will you be able to say you could have paid yourself $5.25 an hour to develop it? I'm not saying your approach is inherently wrong, if you've enjoyed all the time you've spent on it then it doesn't really matter what the game ends up making. Anything can be considered a profit if you don't count any of the time invested as a loss. However if you are full time you will be accountable for your time, you will have financials and you will have to find a way to be profitable if you are to support your family and yourself.

I'd just as soon keep my day job and make games that interest me to a point wher I don't miss the hours I spent working on them because I enjoyed every minute of it. It may not make money, or it may explode and make lots of money, if it does though the pattern I will be locked into is making games i'm passionate about because that's the market I will have resonated with. Some have said that success is doing what you love all the time. If i do what I love and I become profitable then I will have achieved the ultimate success. In the mean time my success will be loving the hours I spend after my 9 to 5 and the fact that I don't hate my day job.

[Sysiphus]

I don't know if there's a possible third position...My case: I do this totally for the money, but being a game what is done, practically whatever the game, I enjoy in the way, because I like doing graphics, and mostly as I have a freedom I don't have when making games at work. My aim is have enough money or situation to go then and do things more for fun, though, but I'm not there.

[Anthony Flack]

Okay - first of all I think what Dan has to say is very relevant to the "should I make a platformer or not?" question - since making a platformer is surely not the path to easy money; I think we can all agree about that.

That's not to say they can't make good money - but Chris is right; you probably won't find success with a mediocre one. I love platformers, and certainly I'd buy a good one - but I don't need another average one. I've already got plenty of those, and I've also got quite a few excellent ones on my Saturn and SNES. Any platformer that makes good money is going to have to give you a reason to play it instead of Super Mario World.

But even if you can't make a game better than Super Mario World, it's still a great thing to try. Imagine if you did make a better one! What a fantastic achievement; what a great gift to platform game fans everywhere.

All the things that Chris lists as problems with platform games can also be seen as opportunities - it's true you need a lot of animation to make a character effectively come to life, but it's also really good fun to give a character a lot of personality. I love animating a character that makes people laugh. And all the art assets, levels and secrets are a lot of work - but they're also a great opportunity to exercise your creativity. These kinds of things are some of the most rewarding aspects of game development.

And even though I've been working on one for over three years, I still think I could have done it in under 2 if I'd been able to do it full time. And although I'll certainly be wanting to work with a different genre for my next game, I'll definitely be making more in future. And they'll be better, too.

[Ricardo C]

I don't know if there's a possible third position...My case: I do this totally for the money, but being a game what is done, practically whatever the game, I enjoy in the way, because I like doing graphics, and mostly as I have a freedom I don't have when making games at work. My aim is have enough money or situation to go then and do things more for fun, though, but I'm not there.

That's how I feel. Not every game is a magnum opus I'm willing to bleed for, but I certainly derive creative pleasure from the process all the same.

Being a soulless entrepreneur (hey, I finally looked up the spelling!) isn't so bad, is it? ;)

ETA: The other day I came up with an idea for a match-3 game. I'm in no rush to try it out, (must-finish-current-game), but I AM excited about its potential. So, I started sketching and already came up with a visual style, and settled on a musical style as well. I'm enjoying planning a match-3 game, wonder of wonders. What a sellout I am :D

[Grey Alien]

I started Iron Fist (platformer) because I love platform games, I played loads of old classics on emulators to get me fired up, made loads of notes etc. I was working on this in my spare time until the early hours of the morning, not getting enough sleep etc for months, then sometimes in the day working on it instead of contract programming and was losing money, but I was obsessed with the game, surely you know the feeling. Anyway I just realised that the task ahead was massive and more and more stuff I read (and just looking at the type of games on portals) seemed to point at it not being the type of game that would sell. Yes I love making games just for fun but when you start to spend so much time on it, you have to begin to justify it to your partner and kids, and yourself.

So I put the game on hold and made a tetris game just to see if I could complete a game with a proper title-screen, menu, windowed mode etc. This was still good fun initially because I enjoy making games, of course the bore was finishing it off, but I got a great feeling of achievement when it was done and online and people were playing it. I made two other mini games for fun too, I crafted these into "complete" games in that they have a title screen, a level structure and game over screens just to keep on practicising making finished games. I really just wanted to keep working on the engines, like so many other developers, but I knew I had to try to get them to the point where you could actually play them so I could get them out there for others to see!

If you make games truely for the joy of it, you'll probably never finish one because you'll get new ideas you want to work on, like a teenager with an Amiga (that was me). But if you want to turn it into a career you've got to look at, how can I invest minimum time and get maximum output, esp. if you are holding down a 9-5 and doing the game in your spare time (and when you've got kids and a partner, spare time is like gold dust). So for me making Xmas Bonus as a small easy (haha, it took LOTS of work) game and releasing it was a sensible thing to do. This has given me the confidence that I can make a pro-quality game that people like and buy. Now I can build upon that, initially with some more easy games, until I really understand what people want in a game and what makes a game sell. By then I should have a greater understanding of the industry and enough standing to be able to go to a large number of portals with a more "experimental" game, like a platformer.

But I think making a platformer as your first commercial release is a mistake unless it's very simple somehow, but can that be done these days? I really want to finish mine as I *know* what elements make a good platformer, I've played sooo many over the years along with other game types. I'm *sure* I could make a platformer that retro gamers would absolutely love and that would garner respect, fine, but would it gather any money? If not, I just can't do it, unless I win the lottery and can develop games purely for fun, but as I don't play the lottery ....

P.S. It says Iron Fist (50%) below, but that's bull I realise now, more like 10%. This means at the current rate of work it would take me 5 years to finish, no thanks! The sheer amount of graphics, animations, plot, sounds, music, levels, etc required would just be vast, but it would be cool!

[princec]

Well, we shall see about that :) Expect Puppygames to produce a micro platformer sometime this year where we pare down the gameplay and content to the bare minimum, and squeeze it into a 320x320 screen. I bet we sell a few. We won't make a profit (we never do :)) but it's gonna be great, you knows it!

Cas :)

[unreason]

Huh. When I started this thread, I never would've seen this conversation coming. Ok, here's the deal, for those that are curious. I'm not really in this for the money. I have a 9-5 job, and I'm not going to stress about what game will make me an incredibly wealthy person. At the same time, If I put as much effort into a game as a side-scroller would require, it'd be nice to think that people would be interested and enjoy it. I've seen too many people outside of the indie gaming community produce massively complicated programs that no one wants. Please note though, that even if I didn't do a side-scroller, the game I'd do instead wouldn't be a crappy but popular game. I want to make good, interesting games, end of story. I just also want to make games that people will appreciate. And if people throw cash at me with both hands, I wouldn't be upset. :) As far as the debate over what constitutes a true indie, I'm not touching that one with a 10 foot pole. Suffice it to say that my personal ideal is to create really cool games that people like.

Issues with my indie street cred aside, I think I've learned a lot from this thread. A good side scroller, I think, would definitely be something people would be interested in. However, it will be a pretty big project. I will do a sidescroller at some point in the future. Whether it will be my next project, I don't know; I may want to work on a less ambitious title first. Anyway, thanks for your input, and I promise that I'm not an evil sellout who wants to make the next Bejewlelled clone.

[Teq]

You could do what I'm planning - as you build your game, while building your library, do smaller, simplier games, hoping that will give my team a sense of achievement, content for the website, possible income and meaningful goals, all without much deviation from the project we're really wanting to do.

[jankoM]

I make games (and am programming) for a living and I make wooden furniture for my joy and soul in the free time if I can find it. I know few other people who make wooden things in their free time and I know there are some people who make living out of it. I don't understand them, they aren't enjoing it and yet they spend dull 8 hours a day making kitchen (which currently sells the best) furniture that some stay at home mom will cook inside all day long - every day. I am beging to hate that moms - why the hell are they buying it... there is no innovation, there is no art... I put my whole sould in my furniture and (I must admit) I don't sell it much...... I mostly give them away as gifts (but I see that the people that I give it to - are really happy, as they know how much deliberation it took me to make it and how much love was poured itro that piece of wood. )

Ok, enougth about me, .... I am very concerned... someone I know was making furniture for joy, and now he stoped working on his retro cabinet and started working kitchens too (he says that as he makes some money with kitchens he will continue his wok on the cabinet... hell yeah, we all know how that goes) ... I notice this more and more... everybody is starting to make kitchens or some othere crap comercial furniture and I feel the whole wooden industry is going to hell!!!:eek:

But I like old furniture and the industry and I am not giving up on it that easy!! ... whenever I meet those soulles furnituremakers I try to express (no, I am not trying to convince them anything) my point of view. I explain them that they don't have to do it for the money (because you really can't earn that much in furniture anyway - I tried it, I know) they could learn to program like I do and do casual games for example (which sell really peachy right now) and in their free time do the furniture they really like - and not those damned kitchens which we all know nobody likes to make - no matter how persuasive they might look claiming it.

[Ricardo C]

But I like old furniture and the industry and I am not giving up on it that easy!! ... whenever I meet those soulles furnituremakers I try to express (no, I am not trying to convince them anything) my point of view. I explain them that they don't have to do it for the money (because you really can't earn that much in furniture anyway - I tried it, I know) they could learn to program like I do and do casual games for example (which sell really peachy right now) and in their free time do the furniture they really like - and not those damned kitchens which we all know nobody likes to make - no matter how persuasive they might look claiming it.

If you're going for irony, then well played, sir.

If you're serious, then... Oh, my.

[Sysiphus]

I made like 3 platform games(graphic side only) in 2 months and something, recently....besides other games, web design, aplication icons...

But lol, here's the trick, all were mobile games...Keeping behind the 200ks barrier as a rigid rule makes it easier ;)

Must say our mobile games are much more graphically worked than usual, hehe. (with the exception of Super gameloft (usually))

How different hardware platforms are. Pc is much more painful. But way easier to hang somewhere to sell...


In mobiles, to me only did mean several big tilesets, like 4 or five enemies sprites, of really few frames each, and the more animated main character. usually. Often making bosses, etc. But key is in mobile you can't do so much frames, and is not really needed.

In pc it must be a heck of work.

BTW, your hill billy character did rock, Anthony.

Side scrollers are not my favourite as a player, though...But recently I only measure games in amount of graphics/possibilities of money. (while I keep my soul pure ;) . Actually my real passion is making comics and oil paiting, so..)

[electronicStar]

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Charlie games were profitable for their creator (mike Wiering). Maybe he could tell us about that?

As for wether platformer are too difficult to undertake, Cave Story was done by a guy alone and from his interview he said he didn't invest a lot of daily time in the project.
Yes compared to a match3 clone any game is difficult to do but paltformer aren't the most difficult if you chose a good engine.

[lexaloffle]

As for wether platformer are too difficult to undertake, Cave Story was done by a guy alone and from his interview he said he didn't invest a lot of daily time in the project.
Yes compared to a match3 clone any game is easy to do but paltformer aren't the most difficult if you chose a good engine.

He worked on Cave Story over five years though.

From Derek Yu's interview (http://www.tigsource.com/features/interview_pixel.html):

I slaved away for long hours just for the joyous moment of completion, but the period I finally finished it in was such a hectic one that joy took a back seat to simple relief. Something like, "That's the last time I'll ever work on something that's such a pain..."

[Dan MacDonald]

Ricardo for someone so concerned with false dichotomies you sure seem to appreciate false analogies.

Building kitchens is in no way analogus to building games, building kitchens is a service people pay you for your time and expertise. This is actually the same thing I do for a living, I go to work and individual customers pay for my time and expertise in solving their businss problems.

Building cabinets is a bit closer to building games, because now we are talking about building products. Most people don't care how much soul and energy and blood and sweat and tears you put into your cabinet. In most cases they will just go and buy one from ikea for less then you could ever afford to charge for your cabinet. Customers only care about the end result, not how it was made.

So a new budding carpenter comes along and says, "will I make money if I make a gun cabinet? because right now it seems people are only interested in buying china cabinets from carpenters..." Now you and I know just because you want to build cabinets doesn't mean you know how, and while some people have successful cabinet businesses you have to be truly excellent to make a living off them. You have to find a way to compete with ikea. Just because there's desire doesn't mean there's ability, it takes a while to learn the skills of carpentry to even make a cabinet that people will pay for. Chances are no one will want the budding carpenters 1st or 2nd or 3rd cabinet.

So I come and I say, keep making casual games during the day, and if you want to make a gun cabinet then make a gun cabinet. If that's what inspires you to do carpentry then do it, but don't spend your time trying to make profitable china cabinets if that's not really what you want to do.

[Chris Evans]

I don't want to give the impression that I'm a negative person or a defeatist. But the reason I was blunt with my post is because I love platformers and I want people to realize what they're getting into before they make one. It's not as simple as modernizing a breakout game.

With that said...


All the things that Chris lists as problems with platform games can also be seen as opportunities -


Absolutely! As I mentioned in my final paragraph, I had a blast making Pow Pow's Great Adventure. I had lots of fun designing the main characters and the various enemies with my 2D artist. I learned how to do 3D animation, which I did for all the 3D boss characters. I enjoyed creating the 3D environments and adding little touches like having the clouds puff and dissolve when you jump really high through them. The intro and ending are fully voice-acting, so I got to actually work with professional voice talent and direct the recording session at a studio and edit the whole thing with the sound engineer. Great experience. Also put together a nice little Collector's package with DVD, color manual, and gamepad which I'm really proud of.

Because of this, I don't regret making the game. If I spent 11-12 months making a puzzle game instead of a platformer, I probably would have had a lot more regrets if the game didn't do well. I regret certain mistakes I made with Pow Pow, but overall I'm still glad I made the game.

Having said all of that, I'm a believer in working on games that you're passionate about. However, I have a slightly different perspective/situation than Dan or Anthony. I'm doing this full-time, I don't have a "day" job. I have to be realistic about what genres I can do justice and find an audience for. I can't spend 2+ years making a game and spend tons of money on art/music assets, just to "hope" that I exceed Mario World and appease all the jaded retro gamers. It's just too big of a risk. I'm also of the opinion that you can never truly exceed Mario World or Sonic until PCs start shipping with gamepads.

Since I'm doing this full-time, I can't just make whatever game tickles my fancy with my eyes close to the market. But at the same time, I'm not resigned to just make casual games either. If you're doing this full-time I think it's important to make games you're passionate about that's within your resources and that has a solid marketing plan to try to reach your intended audience. Within that scope you can try to do something new and unique. But I recommend full-time Indies staying within that scope if you want to continue making your own games.

If you have a "day" job that you enjoy (or don't hate) like Dan and Anthony, you're in a different situation. You can take your time developing your game and you won't be starving if the game is a dud. If you like your day job (which seems the OP does), then I don't think you should have to really ask anyone here what game you should make. Just pick a game that inspires you to work on your off-hours and weekends. Just make sure its something manageable that you can complete.

I know the OP is a little disappointed this thread has spiraled back to another quasi-Professionals vs. Hobbyist debate. But when it comes to choosing whether to do a platformer or not, it really comes down to what you expect to accomplish. Some genres on computers are more viable than others. That's a fact. If you're just starting out your game business a big platformer is the wrong game to attempt (My main regret with Pow Pow is that I wish it was my 2nd or 3rd game, not my first). But if you just want to dip your toes into the Indie pond while you keep your 9-5, then doing a medium/small platformer might not be so bad.

On a final (and Off-topic) note, I'm personally glad this debate over Game Development vs. Game Profitability has spread through the forums lately. I don't always agree with everything Dan and Anthony say, but until Dan started speaking up recently this board was skewing way too heavily toward the business and entrepreneurial types. This is obviously a game business forum (and I want to keep it that way) but the last 6-8 months people have just become obsessed with cloning/copying/mimicking the portal's top ten and thinking that's the only viable way to start/maintain your business. I'm not going to pretend that I know the true motivation or passion behind those games, but I didn't like where things were headed. So I welcome Dan bringing a balance to the force even if he's naughty sometimes. :) The scales need to be tipped back to the center, so hopefully more creativity will be injected back into our games.

I need to eat and my baby needs a new pair of shoes, but it's important that we as developers stay creative otherwise we'll just become expendable commodities for the big boys. Last I checked this is an INDIE Game Business forum. While Dan may sometimes forget the "Business" part, many of you are ignoring the "Indie" focus of this place. Your games aren't that Independent if your business plan consist solely of pitching your games to portals. You're basically just a content provider for portals. When SteveP started the original boards, "Indie" meant making your own games and utilizing all the applicable revenue streams. The includes portals, budget retail deals, ad etc. but also your website. Steve P. and Thomas Warfield were always against becoming too dependent on just one revenue stream whether it be portals or lucrative retail deals.

If we don't start expanding our horizons soon we might as well change the name of this place to Dependent Gamer Forums....

[jankoM]

Just to make it clear - my little story was not describing you Dan (I don't see your first post in this thread as anything critical (ok, it was your style again - but you are you), and you became a little easyer to debate or non extemistic in last weeks) - it is aimed at this whole debate which apears again and again ... and again and the same people saying the same things in every one of it (I was the one of them too... but I deliberately tried to stay away from it - well not entirely succsesfully). Look, I for example haven't made and am not planing on making casual portal games in near future... but I can't stand that anybody is going to tell me (or anybody else) what I should or should not do, and what is good or bad and what I enjoy or don't enjoy - I don't want to justify my decisions to anybody... I will eat - what I will cook. Reminds me of comunism (15 years back) when we did things "because" (or catolicism for that matter - all the same to me).

//later: ok.. if I would made a "blatant clone" I would "stand" a little bitching too, that comes with the menu (and is fair in a way) - I cheer the innovation too, but you can't force others to be inovative and save "the gaming industry" - you can only be inovative yourself - If you really wanna affect others, you can do it with setting a good example (and I am not saying you only preach - little soliders are special for example). That is just my maybe naive view at this.

And you people must understand that "game development" or "game industry as a whole" is not the most important thing for everybody here... As I said in the story I would much more enjoy making something out of wood in my spare time, and I am much more entusiastic about ecology, permaculture, living conciously, river kayaking. Being programmer is a job to me - I do it for living - and making games has maybe more charm to me that it had when I am making webportals, biz-apps, industrial automation... but at the end it's not all that different. I enjoy it at first and struggle to get to the finish at everything I do.

[Ricardo C]

Dan: Now that Janko has explained his intentions, I guess there's little point to my post, but I'll explain myself just the same: His post described a craftman infuriated by the calculated commercialization of his art, and who suggests to his fellow craftmen to go and sell out in another field altogether, so that theirs could remain artistically pure. That's the only reason I commented on it. I missed the point he was trying to make, but at any rate I wasn't interpreting it as an analogy for you, me, or this discussion. But thanks for the five-paragraph rebuttal all the same.

[Dan MacDonald]

People will do what they want to do, and they aren't accountable to me or anybody else. People who make clones have their own personal motivations for doing so. Weather it's just paying their mortgage or establishing their business.

I have always genuinely cared for the state of independent games and independent developers. The argument could be made as that being one of the reasons I ended up as an administrator of these forums. I want everyone to be successful and I want independent games and their developers to thrive.

It has been my concern that the definition of success as an indie has been so narrowed to be measured purely by profitability that a lot of the things I love or have grown to love about independent game development seemed to be trampled by the wayside. In some ways it's easier to go though life saying live and let live, to each his own but at some point we have to pick an ideal, a passion, something we believe is worth fighting for. Some hill that you say, this far and no farther, this is where I make my stand. I realize that the way in which I express my views and in some way the views themselves are extreme. It is not my hope that people will adopt my views entirely, but rather that there be awareness of another way of approaching the task of independent game development and another way to define success.

[jankoM]

Well I can agree with that... it really seems that lately much more attention on this forum goes to casual games that make big money or look like they will make big money on the portals - as that other options dont exist. Only cliffski rants now and there that "we are not all casual". (ok, this has at least a little to do with you (not you personally - but "real indie advocates") too - because you jump on such games and predict the doomsday of all indie). I was seeing/thinking about that too.

//added later again: When I started thinking about making games I read a blog post (no not of Steve Pavlina about $$$10000.. you can make in shareware games - I still havent read any of his articles btw, but ) >>Product choice theories, or, "How to succeed at being an Indie game developer."<< from Mark Fasset. Article was simple but I think it was smart and I decided I will go with (A) combined with many smaller (B)s ... I still think the same, because I feel that is the best way for me to go. So no (C) in sight... If you wana knwo what is ABC.. you can find the article here http://www.laughingdragongames.com/showpost.aspx?postid=100

Now I don't want to talk about OT here any more... this post is about platformers... I just downloaded your Pow Pow Chris ... I was waiting to see how it works for a long time, that big Crab from video allways impressed me.

[Mike Wiering]

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Charlie games were profitable for their creator (mike Wiering). Maybe he could tell us about that? In 2001-2003 Charlie II sold well, around 75-100 copies a month, but in 2004-2005 sales were a lot less, I don't really know why. It's too bad the portals aren't very interested in these kinds of games.

And yes, completing a platform game takes a lot of time: it took me three years to write Charlie II, of which one full time, which I spent mainly on designing the levels.

I think the importance of level design is often underestimated. I've seen several platform games with beautiful artwork, that could have been great, but have boring levels (usually too linear, no secrets).

So if you're making a platform game, plan to spend a lot of time on the levels (perhaps even as much time as you spend on your graphics). Look at every (screen size) area in your level and think about how you could make it more fun, make it look more interesting, and think about what the player could possibly do there. People will eventually be trying out things you might not expect (like jumping into pits on purpose), at least sometimes reward them for that. Also hide things that require some skills to find/reach so people will enjoy playing the game more than once.

[Bmc]

platformers can be made simple and do well, super nanny, that turtle one awhile back.

they might not compare to SMB or Sonic, but when you are a small team, especially just 1 person, cut everything down to it's simplest core.

people complain, especially about the casual market, it being all clones and match 3's and what not

best advice: shut up and stop complaining. design a game in the genre you love but implement it so it will appeal to a casual crowd.

it's not unheard of a space shooter or platformer making good money.

[electronicStar]

I think the importance of level design is often underestimated. I've seen several platform games with beautiful artwork, that could have been great, but have boring levels (usually too linear, no secrets).
Yeah level design is among the most important parts in most games actually , not only platformers, although platformers do require more work. But it's also the more tedious task,Argh!...It's like work.
But from the time invested in it, depends the quality of the game. What makes the mario games what they are isn't the graphics or special effects or whatever, it's pure level design.

[Anlino]

Just noticed something at the Publishing Faq (http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=category&qid=124) over at garagegames, on point 7.

"Don't bother sending in submissions for bubble poppers, Break Out variations, jigsaw puzzles, Tetris variations, or old school side scrollers."

Garagegames seem to have a very clear and stiffy point of view on side scrollers. The problem is, i believe most publishers do.

[soniCron]

Now, there are side scrollers and there are platformers. This thread seems to have evolved to discuss the latter, despite the incorrect title. Of course, that's just my impression, it seems more than one person understands "side scroller" to mean "platformer," and I wonder which one Garage Games means. Pedantics aside, you say that you believe publishers have a very clear and strong point of view on side scrollers. Where does this come from? Have you tried publishing a side scroller in the past?

[Anlino]

It comes from the fact that there are 20 published puzzles on one published side scroller. No, i have not tried to publish a side scroller. What i am interested in knowing, is why Side scrollers and platformers alike are underrepresented at the portals.

[whisperstorm]

Just an FYI for folks here - I discovered this a few years ago and it still seems to be going strong:

http://www.sawbladesoftware.com/

They have a "side scroller maker" for the macintosh that has some interesting features.

[princec]

It comes from the fact that there are 20 published puzzles on one published side scroller. No, i have not tried to publish a side scroller. What i am interested in knowing, is why Side scrollers and platformers alike are underrepresented at the portals.
I believe that the answer is in this thread... the sheer amount of content you have to produce is not cost-effective, and portals are all about profits.

Cas :)

[soniCron]

Neat site: Ian Albert's Video Game Maps (http://www.ian-albert.com/misc/gamemaps.php)

An excellent collection of (high quality) game maps to study...or to reconsider the sheer volume of effort to develop a quality map-based game.

[Anthony Flack]

If you think Super Mario World looks like hard work, then check out that GTA:SA map...

[dxgame]

Speaking of Side Scrollers.... ;)

Here's a little demo I coded up that uses Metal Slug Sprites. It was done in a little over a week and is 1 level with a boss at the end. Read the readme for the controls.

1.4mb
http://www.dxgame.com/download/dxgdemo_0106.zip
Requirements: (XP, 3D Card, DirectX8, VB6 runtimes)

[kjs335]

Speaking of Side Scrollers.... ;)

Here's a little demo I coded up that uses Metal Slug Sprites. It was done in a little over a week and is 1 level with a boss at the end. Read the readme for the controls.

1.4mb
http://www.dxgame.com/download/dxgdemo_0106.zip
Requirements: (XP, 3D Card, DirectX8, VB6 runtimes)
It gives me an msg box.


Run-time error '91':

Object variable or With block variable not set

[jankoM]

wouw ... that's a lot of diference, enemies and all for 1 week of work. It would be nice to see a game like this ;) . It worked here flawlesly.

[dxgame]

kjs335 -

"Object variable or With block variable not set.."

The dxg dll need could not be registered for some reason. You try manually copying the dll to the system 32 folder and then regisering the dll by clicking Start/Run:

regsvr32 /s "c:\windows\ystem32\dxg203.dll"

jankoM - Thanks for the comments. Yah ,there is defintely lots of possibilities with the frame work. I'd love to do a real game with the frame work, but in this type of game, high quality media is a must and that costs $$$$. ;)

[DanDanger]

Oooo! Dont forget Keith Goes Painting! thats a scrolling platform game!

And its free!

www.wolfysgames.com