more silly copy protection kerfluffle

[papillon]

http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/09/20/0416251.shtml?tid=206

Slashdot thread discussing The Sims 2, which like certain other recently released games refuses to run if you have various CD burning/emulating software installed.

The kicker is this - Sims players are not overall the same hardcore computer-tweaking geeks that can find clever ways of getting around this stuff. They're much more casual and less computer-savvy, afaik. A lot of Sims players will be running on computers bought as a package from the store... computers that came with CD burners, and software, that now prevents them from playing the game. They won't be easily able to deal with the problem.

Is this likely to make a much louder backlash than other nasty copy-protected games have done? Enough to *maybe* convince companies that they're shooting themselves in the foot?

At the moment, buying a big name retail release is a crazy thing to do... you're a lot better off getting the pirated version!

[EpicBoy]

Maybe if hardware companies stopped promoting piracy by installing DVD-RW drives and burning software...

[Sillysoft]

Maybe if hardware companies stopped promoting piracy by installing DVD-RW drives and burning software...

Should the hardware companies stop producing VCRs, tape decks, and computers themselves? There are many legit uses for all of these things. The solution is not to cripple the hardware that gets sold.

[cliffski]

For the record I have the sims2, and a dvd player which burns CDs. I haven't had any problems at all.
And the Sims is a 4 CD install, I'd much rather have a legit copy than download 2 gig from a warez site and find it didnt work or was a trojan...

[EpicBoy]

Should the hardware companies stop producing VCRs, tape decks, and computers themselves?
I'm sure the movie industry would LOVE that. Unforunately, a VHS tape can't run software and stop itself from playing if you're using a recording device.

[Anthony Flack]

I've heard about this trend; many people complaining about game X or game Y not working with their CD-burning softare installed.

Isn't it, in fact, the most stupid goddamn thing you ever heard? I couldn't believe it. EVERY modern computer has a CD-burner, retards. IT'S HOW WE STORE AND TRANSFER DATA. We don't use floppy discs anymore, you see. What's next, refusing to run if you have an internet connection?

It's like they're actually trying to kill off PC gaming.

[EpicBoy]

We must do things differently around here. Burning a CD or DVD would be my last choice as a method of transferring data. We either exchange the information via FTP site or put it on a portable hard drive. Burning CDs just takes too damn long...

[svero]

Isn't it, in fact, the most stupid goddamn thing you ever heard?

It's at least in the top 10 and pretty damn close to having to keep the game cd in the drive while you play.

[Greg Squire]

That's about the stupidest copy protection scheme I've ever heard of! I sure hope Maxis hears an earful on this one. When are the big companies going to get it? Most people want legit software, and most protection schemes just end up angering the legit customer. There's no stopping the hard-core pirates; it just slows them down and they love the challege.

[Anthony Flack]

We must do things differently around here.


By "we" I don't mean some big studio. I mean me, taking the latest build of my game round to a friend's house. I mean me, taking some audio I just recorded off my friend's computer and back home. I mean me, taking my work from Japan to New Zealand and back. I mean my friends taking the poster art for their upcoming gig into the print shop to get run off. And I mean my grandad, taking his digital photos in to the shop to get printed.

I have fast internet and FTP access, and I've been working most successfully with a friend back in New Zealand on a music video by this method. But for regular people and their regular computer use, the CD burner has replaced the floppy drive.

[oNyx]

[...]What's next, refusing to run if you have an internet connection?[...]

Sounds reasonable. I mean you can use that connection for downloading a crack. Duh.

Alot of my friends don't have a floppy drives in their PCs anymore. Floppys are just... unnecessary. You can boot from CD/DVD/LAN. So even the last reason for using floppys vanished. So yea, everyone and his dog has a burner. Need a DVD rom? Why not buy one which can also burn?

[cliffski]

errr like i say... it works fine for me. Are you sure this isnt one guy with some weird config whose burner is fcked and blaming it on the Sims? People overreact massively when something like this is rumoured.

[Obscure]

errr like i say... it works fine for me. Are you sure this isnt one guy with some weird config whose burner is fcked and blaming it on the Sims? People overreact massively when something like this is rumoured. While I don't know if the Sims 2 has this protection I know that there there is/are several out there that wont run on machines with burners and certain burner software. It isn't just people with problematic machines it is designed not to run on such machines.

I am all for cutting down on piracy but this is a stupid concept. Too many machines out there have these things by default, straight off the shelf at PC World, and as pointed out previously the people who own these machines and by Sims are not going to be able to solve the problem (nor will they be interested in doing so). The game will be returned as faulty.

[Anthony Flack]

Too many machines out there have these things by default

Virtually all of them by now, I'd say. Home PCs I mean. It is just a jaw-droppingly stupid move.

[EpicBoy]

There's no stopping the hard-core pirates; it just slows them down and they love the challege.
Well, guess what? They aren't trying to stop the hardcore pirates. They're stopping the casual pirates who are a much greater threat.

Why people can't figure this stuff out for themselves, I have no idea.

[papillon]

What's a "casual pirate" when you're talking about a very large game?

With anything small enough to be easily copied and emailed to your friends, casual piracy makes sense to talk about. Especially with Gmail around now making it easier to swap and store even larger attachments. It takes only moments to give it to all your friends. We in the downloadable, less than 20 MB market, have a big issue with casual piracy.

With a 4cd install, it does NOT take moments. You could burn copies of every CD, but that takes time. You're not likely to do it for more than one or two friends, and it would be a lot easier to just loan them the discs and use the no-CD cracks to get around the problem of not having the discs handy. Which, again, this new copy protection method does nothing to stop.

Unless I'm missing something; feel free to enlighten.

[EpicBoy]

Casual pirates:

Jim : "Hey Bob, can I get a copy of that new game you bought?"

Bob : "Sure, I'll just start up my copying software and click this button..."

*15 minutes later*

Jim : "Thanks Bob!"

[the2bears]

I'm sure the movie industry would LOVE that. Unforunately, a VHS tape can't run software and stop itself from playing if you're using a recording device.

Yeah, because they make hardly any money of VHS and DVD sales. Are you kidding? They were very against video in the beginning and now they make a very significant portion of their revenue after a movie leaves the theater.

Bill

[Bluecat]

Yeah, because they make hardly any money of VHS and DVD sales. Are you kidding? They were very against video in the beginning and now they make a very significant portion of their revenue after a movie leaves the theater.

Bill

But... what they would like to do is make it impossible to record programs from TV, which was pretty much always their beef. They still love video (and now DVD) but they don't like TV recording, hence the moves to incorporate a broadcast flag in television programming.

[Greg Squire]

Well, guess what? They aren't trying to stop the hardcore pirates. They're stopping the casual pirates who are a much greater threat.

Why people can't figure this stuff out for themselves, I have no idea.

I understand their intent. As an Indie game developer I don’t want people pirating anything I create either, but the reality is that every CD protection scheme I know of ends up hurting the customer in some way. If there was an ideal way to stop casual piracy and also not punish the user, then I’m sure that’s what all publishers would be doing. But to date, I know of no such way to do this. As to casual pirates being a much greater threat, one could debate that.

An example of how the customer is punished is the parent who makes backups of their kid’s games so that they are playing off of the copy, instead of the original (to protect the original). My small kids are really hard on CDs; they don’t know how to be gentle with them yet (Yes, we’ve tried to teach them). We’ve had well over 10 CDs destroyed in the past several years (luckily they were all backups). However, I have several of our kid’s games that I can’t make backups for, and that angers me slightly and I really don’t want to buy anything more from those publishers because of it.

So in cases like this was casual piracy stopped? Most likely “Yes”. Was hard-core piracy stopped? Most likely “No”. Was the customer inconvenienced or punished because of it? Very often “Yes”. My thinking is that you shouldn’t punish the customer in any way to prevent piracy. If you anger too many legit customers with your protection scheme, then at some point, you won’t have any customers. Obviously there are companies that feel differently, and they feel they can treat their customers that way.

[EpicBoy]

My thinking is that you shouldn’t punish the customer in any way to prevent piracy.
In a perfect world, that's how it would work. However, we don't live there.

If you have any ideas, feel free to forward them to the big name publishers... I'm sure they'd love to reduce the loads on their support lines.

[papillon]

... so instead they merely annoy us to the point that we stop buying retail PC games, and then they whine that the PC market sucks and release games on console only. :)

Did you see the bit on the Sims2 board where someone explained that he had returned the product because it wouldn't run on his machine with his burner and this was really upsetting and the mod yelled at him that if he had returned the product he was no longer a customer so they were going to ban him from the boards?

Yeah, I really want to be your customer now.


Jim : "Hey Bob, can I get a copy of that new game you bought?"

Bob : "Sure, I'll just start up my copying software and click this button..."

*15 minutes later*

Jim : "Thanks Bob!"


15 minutes to properly copy, burn, and verify a four-cd game? You must have a much beefier machine than I do. And it *still*, exactly as I said before, leaves the possibility of loaning the discs to Jim who can then no-CD-crack the install, which is a heck of a lot less trouble anyway.

[EpicBoy]

You're right, burners are no threat at all and pose no problems in the realm of piracy.

My bad.

Carry on!

[papillon]

... and I said that when?

I said there was an order of magnitude in difference between being able to easily email a copy of a downloadable 10MB game to every person on your mailing list and being able to slowly burn one copy for one friend.

Obviously ANY method of transferring data offers the possibility for transferring data that you are not supposed to. A floppy drive, a net connection, a PAIR OF HANDS to carry the discs. Some people are desperately trying to find ways of disabling the printscreen button to keep people from 'stealing' the graphics from their game.

[Anthony Flack]

Well I have a hunch that a bit of piracy actually gives your game momentum and may even generate more sales overall. Particularly for the little guy, exposure is more important than anything.

But annoying legitimate customers is never good.

So in my case I do live in that perfect world, because I have no intention of annoying legitimate customers with intrusive copy protection. For any reason. But hey, everyone is free to do their own thing.

[Sunshine]

Should the hardware companies stop producing VCRs, tape decks....


Uhhh.. They already did.

And once the average person can copy DVD's,
Then it's on to the next format! :p

slows them down and they love the challege

Hey, I love the challange and....oh wait he already said that :p

[Nemesis]

Oh well.. what's the big fuss about The Sims 2.. if you can't play it you can always live a *real* life for a change... :)

Seriously.. it's the Sim 2 publishers that are going to suffer really with such a lobotomised-brain move!

[EpicBoy]

Again, Sims2 isn't the first game to do this.

[Cunning Plan]

The copy protection system employed by Sims 2 will be the same as used on other games by other publishers.

[fusionlab]

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, and I'm sure Nero and Roxio's lawyers will be very interested to hear about this protection software's dodgy methods.

As for EA, talk about driving your customers away. In fact this is only going to encourage legitimate, paying customers who can't get their game to work to go and look for a CD crack or a warez version of the game. Absolutely unbelievable.

BWT I believe the copy protection they use is called SafeDisc3.

@Anthony Flack: I agree with your line of thinking.